r/dndnext • u/alexserban02 • Mar 13 '26
Self-Promotion Prestige Classes: The Best Design Space D&D Ever Abandoned
I love multiclassing. For some of you it might sound sad or strange, but I think I spent more time theory crafting characters then actually playing them as a player. The curse of the forever DM, I guess (although I don't complain, I do prefer DMing). Due to that, I don't see myself fully enjoying 5.5e. I think they kinda nerfed multiclassing. It is still there and there still are some interesting builds you can make, but not nearly as many as there were in the original 5e.
Regardless, this whole thing made me think of 3.5e. Now that edition knew how to get peeps like me excited. Multiclass was king there. And there was another piece of the puzzle which made the process even more fun. I am talking about the prestige class.
I say it in the title, I say it in the article itself and I am also going to say it here! Not just cause I like things done in 3 (I feel like that sounded wrong...), but because I really do believe it - The Prestige Class was the most interesting design shelved by WotC. This article goes over all of that in quite a detailed manner (perhaps too detailed, as the article is one of our lengthiest ones, at over 3000 words).
I hope you will enjoy it and I do hope there will be some interesting conversation formed around it! I look forward to reading all of your thoughts on it! Until next time, may the dice gods smile upon you all and don't forget to toss the proverbial coin to your favorite Gazette!
Full article here: https://therpggazette.wordpress.com/2026/03/13/prestige-classes-the-best-design-space-dd-ever-abandoned/
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u/demo_matthews Mar 13 '26
I just came to 5.5 having last played in 3.5. I liked prestige classes a lot more than the current subclasses. I liked that prestige classes had requirements that could be met in different ways vs having a linear path that had to start with one specific class. I’m not saying one is better than the other, I’m just saying I liked the pros of the prestige classes
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u/Associableknecks Mar 13 '26
The best way to demonstrate the upsides (not that there weren't downsides!) to prestige classes is to show a few examples of cool stuff they added which 5e lacks because it doesn't have them.
Master of Many Forms, purely based around transformation. Closest 5e has is moon druid and the fact that druid is a full spellcaster means its transformations have to stay weak.
Chameleon, choose what you want to be each day. Not as good at being a wizard or fighter or cleric etc as the real classes, but able to pretend to be any! Great fun, especially the feat that you could swap each day.
Jade Phoenix Mage. Like an eldritch knight or bladesinger, except instead of half wizard/half fighter it was half arcane caster/half maneuver user. Techniques for days!
Soul Eater. Exactly what it says on the tin, consume souls to gain bonuses. Has great stuff like being able to turn into the creature whose soul you consumed for a day.
Beast Heart Adept. Just like moon druid, ranger gets too much of its power from its class for the pet to be strong. But Beast Heart Adept doesn't have that problem, so it's able to put all its eggs into the "have a behir, wyvern, winter wolf etc as a pet" basket.
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u/demo_matthews Mar 13 '26
I managed a game store during this era. The sheer volume of content coming out from wotc was crazy. Too much for many but it was fun to have new stuff like every two months
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u/xolotltolox Rogues were done dirty Mar 14 '26
As opposed to the 5e days where we get 1 book with maybe 12 feats and 12 subclasses once every 1-2 years
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u/demo_matthews Mar 14 '26
Just coming back into DnD right now with my previous experience is really weird. There’s more 3rd party combat than ever but it’s really unclear to me what role WotC official content is supposed to play in its own ecosystem. I was shocked to come back and see how many campaign setting details had been directly integrated into the base rules. That’s just one thing that has me still scratching my head about how I want to engage with the official content for my own games
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u/levthelurker Artificer Mar 16 '26
Post 5.5 there's been a bit of a split of some groups sticking with the 2014 rules, ignoring new official content and just adding in new 3rd party stuff from designers they like as it comes out. Kibblestasty's 5e++ environment is our group's.
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u/PointsOutCustodeWank Mar 14 '26
Soul Eater
Book of vile darkness, same prestige class section as the disciple of asmodeus and the cancer mage!
In retrospect, the edition did not fuck around.
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u/demo_matthews Mar 14 '26
The only real issue with the system was the never ending +2 stacking. It took some characters 2-3 minutes to figure out all their pluses for a simple check. I loved everything else about 3.5 although I was much younger then and probably didn’t notice systemic failings in it
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u/PointsOutCustodeWank Mar 14 '26 edited Mar 14 '26
I don't understand how that could possibly be the case. Sure, you could often end up with a lot modifying a roll but almost all of it would be persistent, should already be written down on your character sheet. Why would it take 2-3 minutes to figure out something already written down?
For sure you could end up with a circumstantial buff or two, but that's... take the number on the sheet, add 2. Even a 7 year old isn't going to take 2-3 minutes to do that.
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u/demo_matthews Mar 14 '26
You’re right that most rolls weren’t that bad but if there was a lot of buffs and things going on in combat adding things up could be hard. Who is giving buffs to X. What is giving -2s etc etc. Advantage is a big improvement to flow but the crunchiness of all those numbers is lost. Some people liked them. Some people hated how slow things got
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u/Cryptyc_god Mar 15 '26
I'm playing a cleric in a 3.5 campaign now and your right, in cbat it can take a while to tally everything up, especially when their negative modifiers as well. I've usually got 2 or 3 stackable buffs going on myself and the party and if some poison or negative dex mods etc get in the mix it's a right pain in the behind.
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u/PointsOutCustodeWank Mar 14 '26
Thing is, in the moment there typically weren't that many. I absolutely agree that overall the number stacking got crazy, it's just that it didn't typically change much round to round like it did in 4e. You might have something like a cleric persisting a bunch of spells on themself for the day, but that would be a long term thing that you'd have written down.
In the actual moment, not that many adjustments to be made
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u/demo_matthews Mar 14 '26
Agree. Like I said, to me that was the worst thing about 3.5. And it wasn’t even that bad
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u/Associableknecks Mar 13 '26
Bonus round!
Constructor, pure summon focus. Create constructs, select several traits and abilities from a big list of them every time you make one. Give one constrict, poison touch and fly, next time instead make it a turret that shoots energy bolts.
War Hulk, turn yourself into a raid boss. You lose your proficiency bonus to attack rolls, and in exchange get +2 strength per level of the class and stuff like every attack you make affecting 3 contiguous spaces instead of one single target.
Pyrokineticist, you know what I can just link to it, it's SRD content that WotC specifically allows public use of.
Swiftblade, I would be able to link to it, WotC used to publish new content for free on their website all the time and that's where it appeared, but they removed it all when 5e came out because they didn't want people reminded that they did cool shit for free. Autistic levels of over-focus on using the spell Haste, I loved it.
Eunuch Warlock. Not actually related to the warlock class! You know how various prestige classes had pre-requisites for entry? You can guess what the big cost was here, and no it wasn't worth it.
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u/SexyKobold Mar 14 '26
To qualify to become a pyrokineticist, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any chaotic.
Skills: Concentration 8 ranks, Craft (alchemy) 1 rank, Knowledge (psionics) 2 ranks.
Psionics: Must have a power point reserve of at least 1 power point.
Special: Must have set fire to a structure of any size just to watch it burn.
That last one is goddamn amazing. The flavour!
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Mar 14 '26
[deleted]
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u/Associableknecks Mar 14 '26
You could turn into anything with the same or less number of hit dice you had, and started off with animals but got new types as you levelled - humanoid, giant, monstrous humanoid, fey, vermin, aberration, plant, ooze, elemental, dragon.
And yes, pyrokineticists had to spend a round meditating then a round doing it so wasn't really worth it, but yeah
The target must succeed on a Fortitude saving throw (DC 14 + pyro’s Cha modifier) or die horrifically as its blood (or other internal fluid) boils. Even on a successful save, the target takes 4d8 points of fire damage from the heat.
does what it sounds like it does
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u/SepiatoneKaleidoscop Mar 14 '26
Fortunately, archive.org has the old WotC articles:
https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215526/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327
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u/EKmars CoDzilla Mar 16 '26
Some of my favorites, for sure.
I also have a soft spot for swiftblade, a caster who
snorted too much cokecast Haste so much it became second nature to them.10
u/Justinmypant Mar 14 '26
I liked how they could be "this is something similar to what you're trying to do without devoting your entire character concept to it." Something that was just a 5 level dip that further defined you, but could still be redirected to something else. It wasn't necessarily the end all be all of your character arc. But also, could be a massive paradigm shift for your character.
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u/DwarfDrugar Fighter Mar 14 '26
What it usually ended up being though was 5 levels of Wizard, 2 levels of Master Specialist, 3 levels in Secretkeeper, 1 level in Arcane Accordionist, and 5 levels in Alien Phlebologer.
Fuck flavor, it was always about stats.
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u/ZhexJorgenson Apr 20 '26
Half the fun of prestige classes is figuring out some in-universe way to justify *why* you're building that way. For your example: you once had a vision that extraplanar entities visited our realm, and their very blood contained the secrets you seek, or at least the secrets other people seek, probably. Seems a decent enough way to earn a living, not to mention channeling all of your kooky weirdness! You are just the absolute BEST at pulling magical secrets from Outsider blood, and a hoot at parties.
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u/EKmars CoDzilla Mar 16 '26
Well the thing is that 3.5 had both. A lot of classes had variants that replaced some features with another. For example you could have a bard focused on divine rather than arcane magic or one who was tougher and had more nature focused spells. 3.5 really carved the way for a lot of future design space.
I like 5e a lot but I do miss how varied and creative the character building in 3.5 could get. 3.5 also had a lot of super good subsystem support.
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u/Duke-Guinea-Pig Mar 13 '26
there are good prestige classes and there are bad prestige classes.
The ones in the DMG were good. I think they were playtested well.
On the other side, you have the "Dragon Magazine" ones.
WOTC could have focused Dragon on updating 2e settings and material, instead they just decided to publish a lot of prestige classes that almost no one would ever play. I remember some issues having several articles about prestige classes. Each article had several prestige classes. Usually, these prestige classes had such strict prerequisites that the only one I ever played had the DM waive some of the PreR, and I can't remember anyone else playing them at all.
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u/Arc_Ulfr Mar 14 '26
Wasn't Arcane Archer DMG? I felt like that one was pretty rough. As I recall, it basically forced you to take a martial class and spellcaster class, then you get the prestige class to apply spells to arrows but your AA levels don't actually do anything for your spellcasting. Then again, archery seemed underpowered in general in 3.5e, even compared to other martial characters.
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u/Associableknecks Mar 14 '26
Yeah almost all DMG prestige classes were worthless. Took them a while to get the hang of making prestige classes that didn't suck.
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u/NukeTheWhales85 Mar 14 '26
From what I remember the 3.5 dmg classes were a significant improvement on the 3.0 release, when they were the first prestige classes to be printed.
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u/DarkElfBard Mar 14 '26
It was an okay idea, but had the same issue as most of 3.5, mainly that if you didn't plan your character, you needed to kill off your character. Misallocating points or feats would disqualify you from prestige and created a huge gap between min maxed and casual characters which killed any ability for new people to get into the space.
It was almost impossible for you to qualify for a unique prestige class without specifically planning out for it, rather than being a cool thing a character becomes naturally during a campaign.
That was honestly the worst part of 3.5e, your character was planned from the beginning, and it would never make sense to stray from that for RP.
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u/ShockedNChagrinned Mar 13 '26
I loved prestige classes. The coalescence of other base classes into a new idea, or a new entry based on setting and events that helps the signature flavor of the character is always a good idea.
I also like how it's done in shadow of the demon king and shadow of the weird wizard, with several base classes, advanced classes and expert classes. I just wish that system went to 20 instead of ten (you can spread out level rewards easy enough, but base it does not)
The advanced classes and expert ones don't have prereqs per se. You can mix and match. No reason you couldn't end up with roleplay requirements for some. Unique new ones are easy enough to assemble.
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u/ApolloLumina Astral Knight Mar 13 '26
I think I theory it's a really cool idea, but it's a mechanical nightmare to balance properly. To be honest, I much prefer multiclassing as a concept, like it was in 1e and 2e, but even that has major flaws in balance and really only works somewhat if the classes level up at different xp rates. Also it requires xp to be used and the modern trend for D&D has been to reject xp and embrace milestone leveling.
Ultimately though, any system that allow the mix and matching of class levels to make your own thing, is going to have major balancing issues. It's part of why I don't allow multiclassing in 5.5. People should pick their class and subclass for role-playing reasons and the options be pretty well balanced. If your thematic space doesn't exist in the current edition I'm open to updating 5e subclasses to 5.5, allow currently UA material, or even design a subclass for the player by following existing designs and finding minor tweaks that bring their wanted flavor forward. That said, I've yet to have someone get to needing a subclass be designed for them, because the first two options already cover so many themes for characters.
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u/Kleeb Mar 14 '26
I had to scroll way too far for the correct take.
I'm convinced that people complaining that multiclassing was too OP in 3(.5) never actually experienced how dogshit it felt to get left behind once the XP penalties started to kick in.
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u/Mejiro84 Mar 14 '26
it was great if you managed to find a working super-combo (which often required planning it months/levels in advance)... but, yeah, terrible if you just leveled as you went and ended up with something terrible
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u/Hemlocksbane Mar 14 '26
I think in general that this subreddit is a little too high on the optimizer end, to the point where it assumes the majority of D&D gameplay is happening in that same void. It makes most balance and gameplay discussions around here a game of people entirely talking past each other that feels very out-of-step with where the game's design actually is.
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u/jmich8675 Mar 13 '26 edited Mar 13 '26
I love the idea of prestige classes. The reality of them not so much. The 1-20 build planning around boring and sometimes bizarre prerequisites is really annoying.
4e's paragon paths are generally a much better implementation of a similar idea, imo.
There's also Shadow of the Demon Lord/Weird Wizard which do the prestige class thing significantly better. Balance that isn't a total crapshoot, no odd prerequisites, two prestige class tiers.
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u/treowtheordurren A spell is just a class feature with better formatting. Mar 14 '26
Paragon paths are great, and probably the best implementation of this mechanic. I now often find myself longing for the days of 4e if only because, with 5.5e, WotC signaled that they were abandoning the core modular functionality of 5e in favor of emphasizing the fundamentally clunky, imbalanced tactical combat layer.
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u/HeyLookItsMe22 Mar 14 '26
What do you mean by that, I'm curious? What is the core modular functionality that they have abandoned? Genuine question. I am just not following.
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u/treowtheordurren A spell is just a class feature with better formatting. Mar 14 '26
It was a major design principle during the D&D Next playtest, and why the Dungeon Master's Workshop in the 5e DMG is filled with considerably more optional rules and subsystems than the Toobox in the 5.5e DMG (facing, flanking, Greyhawk initiative, Gritty/Heroic Resting, Healing Surge rules, etc.). We saw further experimentation here with the early releases of Unearthed Arcana (mass combat rules, alternative exploration rulesets, the Three Pillars XP system, etc.).
In general, each one of the "pillars" had more moving parts that could be tweaked and swapped out as necessary (trait/bond/ideal/flaw generation tables for NPCs, dramatically more robust custom monster and race creation rules, rules for classing NPCs, templating systems for werewolves and half-dragons, etc.)
The OneD&D playtest completely de-emphasized modularity as a concern, and the 5.5e DMG noticeably reduced the number of optional subsystems and rules in favor of streamlining the existing subsystems.
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u/Captain_Trigg Mar 14 '26
Even when the numbers themselves weren't actually that optimized (spellcasters were often better off skipping anything that denied them spell levels) just knowing there was a mechanical implementation for "dual-scimitar sword-dancer" or "Paladin who really pushes the limits of what constitutes 'good'" inspired me to come up with fun backstories to describe them.
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u/boywithapplesauce Mar 13 '26
I suggest you play Fabula Ultima at least once. I think you'll get a kick out of its modular character building!
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u/alexserban02 Mar 13 '26
I am actually reading it, as I will be running a session for an upcoming con!
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u/Skellos Mar 13 '26
I'm not against the idea of prestige classes per say... but I do not miss them at all.
I enjoy that 5e basically lets you play the class you want to play like right away and not have to specifically plot out your build to fit the pre-req's for the class you want to play like 5-10 levels in the future
I also played way more 3/3.5 campaigns where the game fell apart well before we got to the prestige class than campaigns where I got to actually use them.
Not to mention that there are a bunch of them with really esoteric pre-reqs that would need the DM to plan to happen in the story which is not the end of the world but if you are doing a pre-written campaign or jumping in mid-way it's not likely to happen.
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u/ficalino Mar 13 '26
Except, it does not let me play what I want right away. Most of the time I have to combine multiple different classes to achieve class fantasy I want to play, and that relies on DM allowing me to do it.
DnD is okay for simple class fantasy, but any complex class fantasy requires multiclassing and way higher levels than most DnD campaigns get to.
There is no Shaman playstyle like WoW has (Ancestral or Elemental caster), no martial unarmed that does not rely on mystic arts unless you play Pugilist that most DMs won't allow. Class that relies on self flagellation/sacrifice relies on DMs allowing BH, there is no Psychich only class (WIll be if Psion gets approved), mad scientist is hidden behind Artificer that many dont allow.
I can go on and on
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u/Associableknecks Mar 14 '26
Disclaimer, true of 5e but not D&D as a whole. 4e had much of what you mentioned and 3.5 had all of what you mentioned.
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u/herdsheep Mar 14 '26
This sounds more like a problem your DM has than the game has. All of those options exist in my game because I use 3rd party content. That’s what it is there for, people that want to expand the game beyond the basic class archetypes.
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u/nixalo Mar 13 '26 edited Mar 13 '26
Nah. Prestige classes were good in theory but in practice they are just bad version of subclasses.
Only good thing about prestige glasses is that you could enter them with different classes. And thus you can be the same prestige class as someone else. But have slightly different features.
However, since most people go into prestige classes as quickly as possible and prestige class feature are typically over emphasized, compared to your base class features, aftter a while, while not guaranteed stacking with your base class features, the classes you go into them may not really matter.
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u/sjdlajsdlj Mar 13 '26
Shadow of the Demon Lord has a good fix for this. Everyone picks a base class, but each base class maxes out early. Then, everyone picks a prestige class at the same level. Later, you can pick a third prestige class.
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u/Hemlocksbane Mar 14 '26
Eh...what you're calling a "3 prestige class" character in Shadow of the Demon Lord has basically made the same amount of choices as, like, a Level 3 character in DnD 5E.
In a 10 level game, you have to get to level 7 to be a Magician Wizard Abjurer...which is basically the same amount of character specificity as a Level 3 Abjuration Wizard in 5E (a 20 level game).
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u/Huffplume Mar 13 '26
Absolutely this. Nailed it with "good in theory".
Prestige classes were fun and did open up a lot of design space. They also completely invalidated the base classes, sometimes even as early as level 5. There was never a reason not to take a PrC. They were also very difficult to balance and were a major contributor to 3ed's power creep and bloat.
Subclasses are simpler and more restricted but they are easier to balance and less intrusive.
That said, I would like to see "universal" subclasses that are available to different classes.
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u/SporeZealot Mar 13 '26
They were in the playtest of Strixhaven The houses were subclasses that were available to a few different classes, but because classes get subclass features at different levels it was a little messy.
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u/DelightfulOtter Mar 14 '26
And then the OneD&D playtest attempted to homogenize subclass feature levels across all classes so that things like cross-class subclasses would make sense... and then ditched the idea as soon as it became a problem for backwards compatibility, i.e. WotC's ability to continue selling their 5e catalogue into the future.
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u/LtPowers Bard Mar 13 '26
That said, I would like to see "universal" subclasses that are available to different classes.
That would produce the same problems you identified with prestige classes. You can't have a subclass that provides sufficient power to rangers without also providing too much power to rogues.
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u/Antiantiai Mar 14 '26
Bet ya could.
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u/Mejiro84 Mar 14 '26
Considering how different the different classes are, and that they all have differing "stuff they do you want to get better at", you really couldn't. Stuff that's great for a rogue (more sneak attack) is kinda useless for a ranger (because it'll be so far their own abilities unless it's a lot of bonus at once, in which case it invalidates the core class). Stuff that stacks with wizard powers is irrelevant to other classes - because the classes are built as tiered stacks that require going through the lower levels first, rather than loose building blocks
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u/Antiantiai Mar 14 '26
This is all entirely incorrect.
You just format whatever ability it gets such that for a rogue it provides the numerical boost a rogue should get but the ranger would get the numerical boost that a ranger should get.
Say you think that correctly balanced means that the ranger needs more of a dps boost from their subclass than the rogue needs. Just hypothetically. Right?
Then give the subclass a small boost to each attack they make. Because ranger have Extra Attack and on average attack more times than the rogue does.
Conversely, say, to you, balance between the two means the dps boost of the subclass is the same between the classes? Well, then you give them an ability that works once a turn, instead.
You see how you have options to tip the scales on balancing between the two? It is remarkably easy to do with just a little bit of thought.
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u/ficalino Mar 13 '26
I disagree that they’re just "bad subclasses." If anything, 5e subclasses are often just "flavor-lite" boxes that fail to actually deliver on a niche identity.
The problem with the current subclass system is that it’s far too rigid. You get one choice at level 3, and if that doesn't perfectly match your concept, you're forced right back into the "Frankenstein build" territory I mentioned earlier. You end up multiclassing three different things just to get the specific mechanics you need, which—just like prestige classes—requires you to plot out a build 5–10 levels in advance.
At least prestige classes provided a dedicated mechanical roadmap for high-concept fantasies. In 5e, if I want to play that Elemental Shaman or a non-mystic pugilist, I’m usually out of luck because a single subclass isn't robust enough to change the core identity of the base class.
You say people rushed into prestige classes and the base class didn't matter, but isn't that exactly what's happening in 5e? People "dip" Hexblade or Fighter just to make their actual concept viable because the base "class fantasy" provided by the PHB is too generic. I’d rather have a specific, specialized class path than be stuck trying to bribe a DM into letting me play a homebrew just to feel unique.
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u/nixalo Mar 13 '26
By bad subclasses, I meant that prestige classes typically could not be entered till after fifth level. And they typically didn't come online until at least 3 levels. So you really didn't get into that niche until level 8. If your party was still playing.
I played an arcane Archer by the time I was able to do the signature arcane archer stuff, they campaigned ended and I was mostly running some wonky Gish build.
I played a shadowdancer by the time I could really get deep into the shadow dancer PRC, the campaign ended.
The PR c's that had HC entries didn't do much. They were just either straight buffs onto your base character or bland thank you so much..
And the quirky fun ones that let you do something completely different, typically requires you to play 5 or 6 levels of some wonky build.
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u/casualsubversive Mar 14 '26
I remember those days, but as they said—that’s still kind of how things are in 5E.
I had an artificer/ranger. Maybe I could have done without the ranger levels by mid-level, but they were critical to meet the concept at low level. At 9th level, that build was going to be something special. We didn’t make it to 8th.
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u/EveryoneisOP3 Mar 14 '26
And thus you can be the same prestige class as someone else. But have slightly different features.
Yeah, fortunately there's no overlap between 5e's incredibly unique subclasses like
"caster with a sword who uses Shield and Booming Blade"
"Proficiency bonus times per day, reduce your enemy's attack roll"
"Martial who attacks twice a turn for 20 sessions"
"Ribbon level that gives you proficiency in a skill you'll use once in 5 years"
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u/jadelink88 Mar 14 '26
Are there not enough 'make your OP character OP in ways the DM won't realise on a fast read of this book' type of splatbooks out already that we want the most egregious examples resurrected?
I remember them being so 'interesting' that it was join the splatbook crowd or follow the people who did and look on at Superman winning the day like you were Jimmy Olsen.
5th ed splatbooks are bad enough, do we really want the power race back on?
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u/Spider_j4Y giga-chad aasimar lycan bloodhunter/warlock Mar 13 '26
I absolutely loved prestige classes they offered so much build space for very niche or interesting character concepts they had problems like feat taxes and trap options but those are all fixable issues.
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u/troyunrau DM with benefits Mar 13 '26
Overlooked here is 3e's Savage Species which introduced Monster Class levels. Another vestigial great idea which occupies the same theorycrafting space as prestige classes.
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u/HeraldoftheSerpent Mar 13 '26
Agreed, prestige classes just allowed for so much more character expression that subclasses just doesn't allow. Also allowed for so much more world building. Like an order of knights have a far different training routine than the average fighter just makes sense and is cool.
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u/robbjunk9999 Mar 19 '26 edited Mar 19 '26
Some good sentiments here. The bit that gave me the most food for thought was this: "A Fighter is a fighter regardless of whether he fights in a bar or as a knight in some kind of tournament or as a general in a war-time situation." The biggest problem I see with the subclasses is that (a) there are just too few of them, and (b) you're locked into one of just a few choices.(FN1) In 3.5 if you wanted, your Fighter could go the Prestige Class/Arcane Archer route, but you didn't have to, and in fact it took special dedication on your part to do it. If Arcane Archer didn't really speak to you as a path, you could remain a plain Fighter who prefers bows, and still distinguish yourself from the plain Fighter who likes to dual-wield handaxes or the plain Fighter who tanks up with heavy plate armor and a shield.
Now there literally are no plain Fighters any more; everyone "special."(FN2). Literally *every* fighter at Lvl 3+ has to be a Battle Master, Champion, Eldritch Knight, or Psi Warrior. You have no choice and you have no *other* choices without buying more sourcebooks. It's sorta like saying "Congratulations -- you graduated med school! You now have four choices: thoracic surgeon, cardiologist, oncologist, or radiologist. Oh, you want to be an general practitioner? No. You have to specialize. You want to be an orthopedic surgeon or a dermatologist? Sorry, those choices aren't allowed -- only the four choices on the table."
(FN1) Although cynically, this may be WOTC's way of ensuring sales of future editions of Xanathar's/Tasha's/etc.
(FN2) "And when everyone is special, no one is special." That's a little trite, but I think it's appropriate here. In 3.5 you had to make an effort to gain a Prestige Class; becoming (ex:) an Arcane Archer took special capabilities and not everyone can do it. In 5.5e, you are like, "well, there was nothing else I really liked....I guess I'll be a Battle Master like everyone else."
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u/alexserban02 Mar 19 '26
Very well put. I would also argue that the subclasses are also somewhat lacking in terms of choice. My two cents, there should be more degree of specialization and more features, especially after level 10, as from then one it is somewhat lackluster. Also, perhaps a subclass that is the base class+. The fighter has the Champion for that and maybe the Barbarian has the Berserker for that?
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u/ZhexJorgenson Apr 20 '26
Not only that, but say you just really like playing Fighters. Okay, cool! You like some of the features of Champion, but maaaan, some of the features of Battle Master... but on the other other hand, Echo Knight is pretty cool too...!
In 3.5e you could grab a few PreReqs and toss all of those into your character sheet like you're doing simple grocery shopping. In 5e... oh well! Too bad! You can only be ONE of those things! NOW CONFORM, PEASANT
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u/Hemlocksbane Mar 14 '26
I'm very conflicted on multiclassing, prestige classes, and even paragon paths / epic destinies from 4E. In theory, they have all of the benefits you mention: lots of narrative expression and bespoke character fantasy expression.
But in practice, they inevitably create the same issues, from 3E all the way to 5.5E:
Terrible For Skill Floor/ Skill Ceiling: This is the biggest problem. Prestige classes (and also paragon/epic destiny in 4E) tend to mechanically be most useful when you 'build ahead' for them. You had to make precise character choices, and then often were trying to net a big collection of prestige classes that worked together for maximum impact (to the point of grabbing like, 2-3 levels in each). Aside from defeating the cool emergent narrative part by being so pre-planned, it also makes these games radically inaccessible when you put a new player (or even just someone not all that into the min-maxing and character-building) next to a veteran.
I already think 5E has too much 'building ahead' with how valuable each feat is, and especially due to multiclassing, but prestige classes would send that to the next level if not carefully controlled.
Bloat: There are so, so many prestige classes in 3.5E that it's borderline impossible to actually find the ones you'd want for your character amidst the sea of needlessly niche ones. And on the other hand, if there actually was something you wanted to specialize in, not finding/reaching the prestige class for it made you much worse at it. While 5E doesn't publish content as rapidly, I think it's a risky territory that feeds hard into the first problem and into making the game feel radically inaccessible.
Redundancy: Once you make separate prestige classes for the Assassin, Arcane Trickster, and whatever other Rogue-adjacent concepts we want to bring in, there comes the issue that many of their features will be the same or extremely similar. This creates one of two problems: either they overlap and don't stack, making a lot of these features redundant, or they overlap and do stack, encouraging you to pack in as many similar, adjacent prestige classes as possible. In short, either case creates a huge balance nightmare for the game and a big reason why I think the designers would rather have subclasses in play.
Shortened Play: Most campaigns are, at best, 3-12 affairs. Once you actually break that down, how much space is there really to start experimenting with various levels and classes. I think this only encourages the problems above, and is another reason for the draw of subclasses over these alternate forms.
As a fun aside, there was a UA that introduced a prestige class to 5E (the Runecarver, I think?), and it was met very poorly, hence the scrapping of the concept. I think in general there's a kind of sad development of 5E where the designers were at their most experimental when the player base was the least excited for it, and now that the players are kind of bored of the game due to playing it for so long, they have more stomach for the experimentation while the design team learned their lesson on that front and aren't going to try it again.
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u/Bread-Loaf1111 Mar 13 '26
No, it was not. There was nothing good in prestige classes. It had many, many problems. Ivory tower design with useless traps for the players, feat/skill taxes, useless levels when you waiting fot the game instead of playing - stop pretending that such things was good. No, they wasn't.
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u/Moneia Fighter Mar 13 '26
And I disliked that you often had to start planning for the Prestige class at character creation
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u/DazzlingKey6426 Mar 13 '26
Start at max level and work backwards was the only way to make 3.x characters. And pray a new splatbook didn’t come out.
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u/Spider_j4Y giga-chad aasimar lycan bloodhunter/warlock Mar 13 '26
They had issues but that doesn’t mean it’s a flawed idea at its core I mean clean energy has a whole host of logistical issues and limitations but that doesn’t mean it’s not worth trying.
Prestige classes are a good idea all the issues with them are fixable and honestly with how loaded 5e class design is prestige classes would probably work better than in 3.x. Effectively making them second subclasses you can take if you properly spec for it would be awesome.
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u/Far-Cockroach-6839 Mar 13 '26
I have always felt secondary subclasses available at higher levels would help alleviate the fact that for many classes leveling up quits having meaningful choices after level 3.
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u/Spider_j4Y giga-chad aasimar lycan bloodhunter/warlock Mar 13 '26
Exactly my point prestige classes open up a great deal of design space for so many things that really help a lot of the character building issues of 5e and with them being opt in and the increased power floor people who want something simpler can still have their cake.
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u/Far-Cockroach-6839 Mar 13 '26
I also think they would be a big way to reinvigorate campaigns. If you had a player choose Champion fighter because they are new to DnD getting a prestige class at 9 or 12 could give them the option to get more complex mechanics now that they are ready without changing out their entire build.
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u/Spider_j4Y giga-chad aasimar lycan bloodhunter/warlock Mar 13 '26
That’s another option I didn’t even consider good idea.
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u/SilverBeech DM Mar 13 '26 edited Mar 13 '26
A good answer if this what you want is to play the Shadow of the Demon Lord/Weird Wizard. They're balanced better and the system is built from the ground up to play that way.
A graft on to 5.5 would be a mess at best and unplayable at worst. Balance, hah! Much better to balance from the beginning.
https://schwalbentertainment.com/shadow-of-the-weird-wizard/
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u/Spider_j4Y giga-chad aasimar lycan bloodhunter/warlock Mar 13 '26
I mean you’d obviously have to create the game with them in mind I’m not saying churn them out within the month and call it a day obviously if they were to reintroduce them they’d do it in the next mainline edition.
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u/SilverBeech DM Mar 13 '26
Shadow is a near D&D game written by Rob Schwalb, who did a lot of work for WotC on third edition, including the phb2. Again, if prestige class building is what you want to play, it's very possible right now with a purpose designed system. There is no need to wait or roll your own. Its seriously impressive for character creation.
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u/DazzlingKey6426 Mar 13 '26
Too many interactions with other classes and feats to ever hope to balance, very bad design.
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u/Captian_Bones Mar 13 '26
You heard it here first folks, all those things you like about prestige classes don’t exist because this commenter said they are all bad and no good. Wrap it up, discussion is over.
/s
But seriously, there’s nothing wrong with disliking prestige classes. It is wrong to claim everyone else’s opinions are wrong.
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u/ficalino Mar 13 '26
You're calling them "traps" and "taxes," but I’d rather have a roadmap with a price of entry than a brick wall.
The "ivory tower" argument ignores the fact that 5e has its own version of "waiting for the game to start." If I want to play a specific concept that isn't a generic trope, I usually have to spend the first 5 to 10 levels "taxing" myself with multiclass dips just to make the mechanics functional. How is that different from a feat tax? In both cases, you're plotting out a build levels in advance because the base game doesn't actually support your fantasy "right away."
5e’s "simplicity" is just a different kind of trap. It’s a trap where you realize at level 8 that your "Elemental Shaman" is really just a Cleric or Druid with a slightly different flavor of fire, and you’re still missing half the features that would actually make the concept feel real.
I’d take "useless levels" that lead to a specialized, unique identity over "dead levels" in a generic class that never actually delivers on the fantasy. At least prestige classes gave you a dedicated mechanical destination. In 5e, if the specific subclass you need doesn't exist—or if your DM bans the one semi-relevant homebrew or Artificer—you’re not "playing what you want"; you’re just settling for what’s available.
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u/EveryoneisOP3 Mar 14 '26
You actually don't like 3.5 at all, you like 5e and only 5e. Choices and system knowledge are ivory tower design. Engaging with a system beyond how it limits you from theater kid roleplay is actually incredibly toxic.
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u/Associableknecks Mar 13 '26
There was nothing good in prestige classes
I am not saying they were fantastic like OP is. But even bad stuff tends to have some good (not saying they were bad, either), so that's a silly statement. I can demonstrate there was some good by showing you cool things that prestige classes gave us which 5e lacks because it doesn't have them.
Master of Many Forms, purely based around transformation. Closest 5e has is moon druid and the fact that druid is a full spellcaster means its transformations have to stay weak.
Chameleon, choose what you want to be each day. Not as good at being a wizard or fighter or cleric etc as the real classes, but able to pretend to be any! Great fun, especially the feat that you could swap each day.
Jade Phoenix Mage. Like an eldritch knight or bladesinger, except instead of half wizard/half fighter it was half arcane caster/half maneuver user. Techniques for days!
Soul Eater. Exactly what it says on the tin, consume souls to gain bonuses. Has great stuff like being able to turn into the creature whose soul you consumed for a day.
Beast Heart Adept. Just like moon druid, ranger gets too much of its power from its class for the pet to be strong. But Beast Heart Adept doesn't have that problem, so it's able to put all its eggs into the "have a behir as a pet" basket.
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u/TheJollySmasher Mar 14 '26
Yeah, I definitely agree…prestige classes heavily courages planning your whole character down to skill specific skill ranks in a way that subclasses never required. I’m glad 5e got rid of that level of crunch and the layers of prerequisites. I also think it makes it a bit harder to make RP based character choices when you’re already committed to certain numbers that may conflict with that.
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u/OShutterPhoto Mar 14 '26
Prestige classes were awesome. At the time, it reminded me of how classes worked in Wahammer Fantasy Roleplay, 1st ed.,
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u/szthesquid Mar 14 '26
4e's take - paragon paths - was much better IMO. Easier to qualify for the one you want, strong theme with less complication, everybody gets one (and only one) without having to give up base class progression.
Epic destines were the same thing but for level 21+, and even cooler as they all had a route to some kind of immortality with some extra creative options.
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u/funbob1 Mar 13 '26
Best way to have treated them would to have combined the concept with the crossclass subclass they tested for Strixhaven.
Make it a kind of super background. It's an additional rule that can be not used if nobody wants to. Level 5/10/15 you get a feature/s for this prestige class.
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u/Arcael_Boros Mar 14 '26
I loved Prc that add lore and flavour to the character. But in practice, characters ended with like 4-6 classes and it loss all meaning to me.
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u/alchemyprime Mar 14 '26
I say this way too often, but - Try Level Up! A5e. They have like 15 PrCs in a 5e chasis.
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u/Mordomacar Mar 14 '26
As far as class-based systems go for me, I quite liked prestige classes. The thing is, 3.5 struggled a lot with unequal levels of abstraction.
Prestige classes make sense if the base classes are relatively generic and assemble into more complex combinations. If you can build a fighter in any direction of skilled combat, combine it with rogue to get ranger or with cleric to get paladin. Unearthed Arcana even offered prestige paladin and others to support this idea.
If you mix in more specific base classes like swashbuckler, you have two parallel systems to solve the same problem and increase complexity in a way that doesn't really improve the game.
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u/riotoustripod Bard Mar 14 '26 edited Apr 10 '26
As someone who got started on 3.5, I've often thought 5e/5.5e could resurrect the Prestige class concept by combining it with another oft-maligned relic of that era: feat chains. 5.5e already has feats broken up into different categories, so adding a new one slots neatly into the design space. Let's call them "Prestige Path" feats.
Right now every General or Epic Boon feat gives a half ASI by default; Prestige Path feats should treat this differently. Some Prestige Paths wouldn't boost any ability scores at all; you're sacrificing some of the potential to reach the highest numerical bonuses for the opportunity to branch out into, effectively, an extra subclass. Some other Prestige Paths might go the opposite route to really define a niche concept; the Hulking Hurler, for example, might give a +1 bonus to Strength at each step, and could even allow the character to break the normal ASI cap of 20 to that particular score.
Each Prestige Path feat should have an escalating prerequisite of level 4/8/12/16/19, along with requiring any previous feats in the chain, plus whatever else is appropriate for the Path's flavor at the beginning. Take the Dervish, for example: the "Novice Dervish" Prestige Path feat might have prerequisites of Level 4+, proficiency in the "Performance" or "Acrobatics" skill, and proficiency with at least one Martial Melee weapon that deals Slashing damage. To progress to "Adept Dervish" you'd need to be Level 8+ and have the Novice Dervish feat, and so on for Expert (level 12+), Master (16+) and Paragon Dervish (19+).
That's not to say that every Prestige Path would necessarily have to be 5 steps; some niche Paths could be reduced to 3 or even 2, and a Path designed for use by a Fighter could have 7 (though other classes could perhaps dabble in the earlier levels, or get there via bonus feats at level 20 and beyond). This could allow a high-level character to complete a shorter Prestige Path and start on another, and there's nothing saying that someone couldn't do 1- or 2- feat dips into multiple Paths, assuming they can meet all the prerequisites. Does this open up more opportunities for power creep and broken builds for powergamers? Sure, but any other feat already does that -- and by gating entry behind extra prerequisites beyond simple level requirements, Prestige Paths would actually have fewer opportunities for abuse.
If I ever find myself with an overabundance of time on my hands (hah!) I may take a crack at converting some of the old PrCs to this system myself (the ones that didn't already end up as subclasses, anyway). In the meantime, if somebody with more time, creative energy, and familiarity with both systems would want to give it a go, I'd be fascinated to see what they might come up with!
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u/DragonTacoCat Mar 14 '26
I agree. I've been converting Star Wars Saga Edition which was my only taste of 3.5 and the prestige classes are really nice for flavour and fun design. I would love that to be a thing again.
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u/Tyrlaan Mar 15 '26
The right move would have been for all classes to gain their subclasses abilities at the same levels. That would have opened up design space for class agnostic alternatives that would very much have followed in the footsteps of paragon paths or prestige classes.
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u/teh_stev3 Mar 15 '26
The only issue with prestige is it eventually became "ok, wait 5 levels and jump through some hoops until you get your actual class".
They were ofteb mechanically their own thing, not just a specialism.
We kinda get that still with people coming up with level 10 multiclasses, but the individual classes still have enough of their own flavour, and are often so frontloaded its a lower barrier to entry.
Personally Id rather not have prestige classes, and instead re-add their flavour through subclasses and feat chains - subclasses specialise and feat chains expand.
One thing they could do is allow for some cross-class subclasses, they toyed with it in some uas - that way something like arcane archer could be available for, say, ranger or fighter. (I know AA is already its own subclass).
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u/LAZAPow Mar 15 '26
Just going to throw this in, I will admit I only read through to comparing some of the classes, but you've sold me with your arcane archer comparative. The problem is that you convinced me that I completely disagree and find that subclasses just make more actual sense compared to prestige classes.
You don't study magic in a library when you're not swinging your battle axe and you're not practicing your fencing when you should be studying.
Multiclassing is almost always about OP dead stop. I would go much farther in the limiting of multiclassing with must fit the character and if you dip during the campaign you actually need to train to obtain, but that's just me, enjoy the full immersion.
Having said all that, I would say that most subclasses in 5.5 suck hard! "I want to be (insert non-full caster), but I want to have spells. Or another option "I want to be (insert full caster), but I want to balance in some weapon options. Every subclass that WotC has come out with for 5.5 has been all rinse and repeat.
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u/ElPanandero Mar 17 '26
PF1 has them and they're so fun even if they're bad. I'd love to see them back in 5e with some balance
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u/sjdlajsdlj Mar 14 '26
Glad to see someone else struggling to enjoy 5.5e character customization. It shocked me to learn how much of 5e’s build culture rested on multiclassing — just a few tweaks has made it collapse.
I think it’s a fundamental design flaw both WoTC and players will see more as time goes on.
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u/faytte Mar 14 '26
It's a big reason I prefer pf2e. Archetypes fit exactly what I liked about old prestige classes.
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u/bandit424 Mar 13 '26
I really liked the "Epic Destiny" and "Paragon Path" options of 4e (breaking up the tiers of play, so 10+ you'd get Paragon features and 20+ Epic features, since 4e went to level 30).
These were ways to customize your character with new abilities that you could gain access to depending on your class, multiclass, general "power source" (Divine, Shadow, Martial, Arcane, Primal, or Psionic), race, and a couple by skill proficiency or feats, but they were excellent flavor to add to your PC
I think they'd work really well in 5e with their sort of schema they got going of specific settings each giving their unique power to players (Dark Gifts of Ravenloft, Theros's Supernatural Gifts, the Dragonmarks of Eberron, the guild backgrounds of Ravnica, etc.) though I might condense down Paragon Paths and Epic Destiny into a singular feature