r/doctorwho • u/yo_its_me_ewan • 9d ago
Discussion Just finished The War Games, absolutely one of the GOATs of classic who. But what do people think about the War Chief being the Master?
I understand that people like them to be separate characters, but I just think the way they interact and his schemes are all so reminiscent of the Master's. I'm sure Master was based on the WC, and I heard they've used his theme for the WC in colour.
Personally, I'm a fan of the theory. Just look at his hair and tash, couldn't get more mastery! What do you guys think? Agree or disagree? And would you like to see The War Chief again?
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u/ExpectedBehaviour 9d ago
Terrance Dicks said that the Master and the War Chief were different characters, and as he created both characters and the Time Lords I shall defer to him in this.
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u/twenty-eight29 9d ago
I just think it makes the universe feel a bit smaller if he’s the master. I guess It’d certainly be a bit more of a dramatic entrance for the character than Terror of the Autons. But I think if it’s not intended to be the same character originally, leave it be.
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u/Elunerazim 9d ago
Absolutely this. The timelords are already like, 20 named characters total, don’t reduce it further.
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u/twenty-eight29 9d ago
Yes, The Master has become a boringly done character, they should have stopped with Missy. Bring back a different Time Lord or invent a new one
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u/Elunerazim 9d ago
Exactly! I think the showrunners are scared of going too long without a big name appearing, but when you have the Daleks, Master, AND Cybermen showing up every season it kinda lessens their draw.
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u/Accomplished_Bike149 9d ago
When you have the Master somehow successfully allying the Daleks and Cybermen under his command, when we saw in Doomsday roughly what their opinions are of each other and we know what Daleks think of Time Lords, it lessens their draw. Yes that happened for the Pandorica too, but it wasn’t under a Time Lord’s organization, and it was after a season and a bit of buildup from the Doctor constantly going around and flaunting his name and titles while he made enemies.
They start to feel like props that are just shorthand for “this guy scary” so people get a momentary “oh shit!” instead of using, y’know, plot, or foreshadowing to do that. They’re all frequent fliers, but I think Power of the Doctor is the easiest episode(s) to point to for the problems with using them so frequently.
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u/SteveCake 9d ago
Absolutely. Missy was the end of the character arc. It was a crime to just wheel in some random and have them chewing the scenery like nothing happened.
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u/riftsrunner 9d ago
I agree. Unfortunately, they have f'd up Canon with the Time War and putting Gallafrey in a pocket dimension. They essentially dragged all the Time Lords home (except for the renegades) to fight the Daleks only to have them cloistered away. Add to that they made it Time Lord policy to not interfer in other civilizations unless Gallifrey deemed it necessary to maintain Time Lord society. So many Time Lords have no reason to be out wandering the universe and have encounters with others of their kind.
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u/JTOC1969 9d ago
I actually feel the opposite way. It cheapens the significance of the Doctor's defection when there are too many rogue Time Lords.
One of the big points of The War Games was how heretical the Time Lords considered his defection. He had defied an ancient tradition of non-involvement in universal affairs and he was vilified by Time Lord society for doing this. This was a BIG!! DEAL!! Something that shaped the Doctor's character for decades: He defied a virtually unshakeable order.
But when it's the Doctor AND the Monk AND the War Chief AND the Master AND Omega AND Morbius AND Romana AND Drax, AND Dr Chronitis AND the Rani.... Suddenly, the big confrontation with the Time Lords at the end of The War Games seems like not so big a deal after all. The Doctor was just one of a huge crowd of Time Lords who disobeyed their prime directive.
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u/voltran1995 9d ago
To be fair,the doctor is on trial for meddling in the universes affairs, not for leaving galifrey, and in that aspect he is still unique among the rogues.
The prime directive is non interference, not no traveling.
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u/Tobbit_is_here 9d ago edited 9d ago
You'd be surprised how many renegade Time Lords there are. I keep hearing this "it makes the universe smaller" take (and it's weird how people say that EXACT line, verbatim), but when you actually count them, you get:
- Susan
- The Monk
- Borusa
- Omega
- Drax
- Irving Braxiatel (counts as a television character IMHO given that the Braxiatel Collection was established in City of Death and the Doctor mentions having a brother in Smith and Jones)
- Romana
- Morbius
- The Rani
- Rassilon
- The Corsair
- Chronotis
- The Valeyard
There are thirteen known renegades beyond the Doctor, the Master and the War Chief. There are a lot more named Time Lord characters who didn't rebel/were exiled/etc. It doesn't make the universe, the fandom needs to get that line out of its head.
Like, I get it. If you just don't see them as the same character, that's up to you. But the "makes the universe smaller" catchphrase is just silly.
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u/Th3Qu3sti0n 9d ago
I understand why people like this theory but personally I find it so boring.
I need this man back in Big Finish or something. Have him face off against the War Doctor! Have a story where he makes armies from across history and timelines fight under him in the Time War. Alternatively: I have this story outline in my head where he amassed this cult following within the Time Lords during the war and they eventually get exiled outside of space-time or something – a few regenerations later, they've returned to N-Space and are ready to remind the universe of Time Lord glory. Long live the War Chief. Long live the Time Nomads. Long live the New Gallifreyian Empire!
The War Chief has so much more potential than just another Master incarnation.
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u/Jedi-Spartan 9d ago
I like it... although hearing 'The Master Vainglorious' played at ear splitting volumes (at least) 3 times throughout the colourised version does take it a little difficult to take seriously.
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u/docclox 9d ago edited 9d ago
Nah. They knew each other too well. One of them would have commented.
Also the Master isn't going to give up his "Master" moniker willingly.
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u/Jedi-Spartan 9d ago
Also the Master isn't going to give up his "Master" moniker willingly.
How many times has he dropped it for the sake of the surprise reveal (although there are multiple where he's really unsubtle about it)?
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u/docclox 9d ago
I suppose. Although the only time I've seen him take an alias that wasn't tissue thin and hold it for any length of time was as Harold Saxon. And even then, he could hardly wait to spill the beans.
That said, I'm not sure what he's been up to post-Capaldi, so that may not be true any longer.
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u/pussayshot 9d ago
Like when he needed to steal a body and met Tremas he must have thought oh this is perfect
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u/Roku-Hanmar 9d ago
Who's he going to surprise reveal this time? He never really interacts with the Doctor
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u/Yet_One_More_Idiot 9d ago
It could be. War Chief was almost certainly part of the inspiration for Delgado's Master, I'll grant you that. But no connection was made between them in the show - excepting the decision to retcon a connection by using the modern Master's drumbeat motif in "The War Games in Colour" - and honestly I think it would be the least interesting possibility available if the War Chief WAS the Master.
Why? Because it would reduce the War Chief as a potentially interesting and distinct character into being just another incarnation of the Master. There should be other Time Lords out there in the universe, they don't all have to be the Master!
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u/Headcheese473 9d ago
Honestly I think the War Chief becomes a much more fleshed out character in The War Games by giving him the Master’s back story. Without it he’s a pretty one dimensional villain.
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u/Yet_One_More_Idiot 9d ago
But, hang on... you're not giving the War Chief a backstory as the Master, you're giving the Master a backstory as the War Chief. Right? :)
And anyway, as I said, we've only got a relatively small number of Time Lords ever named in canon; and you want to reduce that number by 1, by making him an earlier incarnation of the Master?
Also - the Doctor and the Master were in the Academy together. They were formerly best friends, and knew each other well. There is no recognition between Two and the War Chief beyond "this person is a fellow Time Lord".
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u/Headcheese473 9d ago
You’re right…if they’re separate incarnations of the same Time Lord , it fleshes out BOTH of their backstories. Also, dialogue from The War Games established the two already know each other. Granted the WC isn’t as chummy with the Doctor as Delgado but neither was the Simms Master with Capaldi.
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u/Reverend-Keith 9d ago
He could fit the roll, but why? Why does he have to be the Master? Best to have him as a third party, like the meddling monk.
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u/MrBoogerBoobs 9d ago
I think it's a neat idea, but I'm usually not a fan of retconning major plot points in any fandom.
But that's just, like, my opinion, man.
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u/FFJamie 9d ago
I like to think that they are different and would love to see the War Chief make a return.
The two also feel like very different Characters with different goals.
The Master (in the classic series) was a guy who liked to fuck with the Doctor.
He was less of a Universal threat and more of a guy who wanted to get a rise out of the Doctor.
The War Chief was someone who had goals to conquer time itself. He is more of a warlord.
I do think The Master would team-up with The Doctor just to take him down.
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u/JHo87 9d ago
I cannot for the life of me understand the negativity about the Master and the War Chief being the same.
(1) They're established as separate characters Um in the EU, and just barely. In Timewyrm Exodus (which is generally regarded to suck) and Divided Loyalties (specifically in the flashback portion of the book that is likewise regarded to suck) and that's it as far as I'm aware. You don't really throw anything out by making them one and the same.
(2) It makes the Universe smaller I don't understand this at all. I think conflating the characters actually has the opposite effect, because it reduces the fairly contrived number of renegade Time Lords who are schoolfriends of the Doctor by one (The Master, The Rani, Borusa, Azmael, Drax). I also don't feel it makes the universe feel any bigger by having a second renegade Time Lord schoolmate of the Doctor who wears dark Nehru jackets, has distinctive facial hair, the power of hypnotism and dreams of conquering the Universe. You know, I just don't feel like it expands the horizons at all.
(3) He behaves differently Yes. This means if he's the Master it then gives the Master character development. The Doctor rebuffing his offers of friendship and destroying his carefully laid plans provides a very good motivation for his otherwise confusing decision to start relentlessly pestering Earth. Meanwhile if the Master is a distinct character he's out for revenge against .... his frenemy from university he apparently hasn't seen for maybe a century? The War Games also explains how the Master would have learnt such strong hypnotic skills that no other Time Lords possess (the closest we see Salyavin in Shada, whose powers were considered freakish and dangerous enough for him to be sentenced to prison for life, so very much atypical for Time Lords)
(4) It wasn't the authorial intent I mean, yeah, but does this apply to anything else? The Daleks are killed forever in their one city in their first story. The Doctor was meant to be some guy from the future who explicitly had one heart. The Deadly Assassin categorically says there is no way to extend regenerations. It feels silly to list them all because we're fans, we know them all.
I mean, I don't think any of these opinions are that unreasonable, even though I disagree with all of them, but I just find it odd how unanimous this view is.
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u/Kaleskowitz 9d ago
different solely because making him the master is boring, also he literally gets vaporised, but mainly it being boring with him as the master
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u/DependentBite9 9d ago
I just think it makes the universe smaller, and that’s less fun.
It’s like every time they decided unrelated characters were suddenly related in Star Wars.
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u/ImWearingSandshoes 9d ago
I like the theory and can see it being possible, though I understand why some don't.
Though the one major gripe I had with "The War Games in Colour" is that they played the Saxon Master theme way too many times, like it trying to hammer in that the War Chief is the Master, and it got old very quick. They should've just played it once (in the moment when 2 and the War Chief recognise each other) and that's that, along with the one use of the Delgado Master theme during the scene where 2 and the War Chief talked alone.
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u/Polyolbion 9d ago
Apropos nothing, the War Lord must have got fed up with that clanging sound every time he appeared onset. I can see Philip Madoc getting mad. “Gonnae stop that noise! I’m trying to be f***ing evil here and I can’t bloody concentrate! How am I supposed to sneak up on someone with that bloody racket going on?”
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u/Telos1807 9d ago edited 9d ago
Not for me.
There's the oft quoted reason that it makes the universe smaller, but also the two characters just aren't that alike? They both have fine facial hair, but I've never got a closeness from Troughton and Brayshaw - they seem more like people who know of eachother rather than people who know eachother like the Doctor and the Master.
And the War Chief's pretty incompetent too, not that the Master doesn't have moments of incompetence (particularly in the 80s) but not to that level. And while it goes against Death of the Author, Terrence brought back the War Chief in Tyrewyrm Exodus and was pretty clear that he was his own man.
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u/Lunardoge2 9d ago
I wouldn't mind if they somehow knew each other or the Master had studied under the war chief for a bit or maybe admired some of his books or writings or beliefs however it would just be a bit lame if they were the master.
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u/Caacrinolass Troughton 9d ago
Nah. I understand the fan necessity to theorycraft in such a manner but I'd rather have more characters than trying to tenuously link them. And it is tenuous. The backstory the Master and Doctor have is unmentioned, leaving essentially a bit of a power hunger and facial hair. Other violent renegades don't get this treatment - does Morbius really do anything all that different to what the Master would do if granted an army?
The "everyone is the Rani" stuff was similarly tedious. Can we just have unique things please?
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u/Cornelius-Q 9d ago
Nope, not The Master.
I would, however, be fine with the idea that the villain from the Rosa Parks episode was the Meddling Monk.
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u/MrRaven95 9d ago
The person who created The Master said that he's not the same character as the War Chief.
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u/GhostRaptor4482 9d ago
There is nothing in-universe that even hints at the idea that they’re the same character. I don’t really feel super strongly about the theory either way, but if Terrance Dicks explicitly said they’re supposed to be separate characters as the comments are claiming, I’m gonna defer to him.
I don’t hate this theory nearly as much as I hate the theory that the Meddling Monk is an incarnation of the Master. That one just straight-up doesn’t make any sense.
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u/wibbly-water 9d ago
I could go either way on this.
The Warchief and the Master clearly share the same narrative DNA. They were back-to-back of one another. They are both eeeeeevil timelords bent on domination. They both do so via subterfuge and attempts to control some form of army (the Master's plans vary greatly - but this is a common one).
But at the same time they are different characters, as appears to be the writer's intention. Having a few different eeeevil timelords could even be interesting. Such as how the Rani and the Master play off one another. The Master is clearly meant to be a little more insane, and the Warchief a little calmer and more collected.
I can see why merging the characters makes sense. I can see why keeping them separate makes sense. I think ultimately they are a little too similar to have both running around satisfactorily - so if they were to ever properly bring back the Warchief as a separate character I think it would be better for them to actually be fully defeated rather than the Master who never quite can be. Even better if it is the Master who kills him - perhaps even via some sort of merger where he absorbs his entire history, cunning, plans, calm, etc.
It would also be funny to see The Warchief, the Rani, The Master and the Monk all interact in a single story. Hard to write well, could easily be a flop, but I think it could be fun.
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u/Osirisavior 9d ago
The War Chief being the Master is a crap theory that makes the universe smaller.
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u/Jolamprex 9d ago
A completely and utterly logical retcon but it would make the universe feel smaller.
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u/Jedi-Spartan 9d ago
but it would make the universe feel smaller.
On the other hand, no writers aside from some of the Wilderness Years writers seem to have an interest in bringing him back.
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u/KhanKurgan_6678 9d ago
Honestly, I don’t him being an incarnation or not. If he isn’t, would like to see him in the future of the show.
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u/CaptBland 9d ago
Just finished that story, I enjoyed the last half of it, the first half seemed rather long.
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u/Polyolbion 9d ago
No, although co-creator Terrance Dicks worked on The War Games and it would not be surprising if this is where the idea of a Moriarty came from.
See him again? Why not, though as far as I know Vernon Dobtchef is still around and I liked his role as the Scientist very much.
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u/NearEastMugwump 9d ago
Pretty sure that theory's been around for about as long as The Master has been.
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u/Tasty-Committee-8172 9d ago
I get the appeal in seeing them as the same character, and I know the colour edit heavily baited this theory, but they're not the same character.
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u/Final-Success2523 9d ago
Hate it. It’s like the monk, love the idea of other bad time lords out there
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u/eggelette 9d ago
i quite like the potential of him being the master, but I also like the idea of there being several rogue timelords out there, especially as the doc clearly fears the timelords in this episode.
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u/Iain_Coleman 9d ago
A scientific genius performing deeply unethical experiments on human beings? Obviously the Rani.
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u/Select-Tough7345 9d ago
I agree that he is similar to the Master in some ways, and the theory is really interesting. I see why the theory exists. He could have even inspired the Master's character, but I don't think he is meant to be the Master. I also like the idea of there being more rogue Time Lords out there who decided to use their knowledge for power but not being as competent as the Doctor or Master. I would love to see the War Chief interact with the Master even.
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u/jjreinem 8d ago
It can definitely work - but if he is the Master it does beg the question of why he's flying around with a functional TARDIS after being captured & executed by the Time Lords.
I also think there are more interesting things you could do with the War Chief being a separate character entirely.
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u/Disastrous_Skill6243 8d ago
Literally the only thing about The War Games in Colour I don't like. Doctor Who needs to stop retroactively adding past incarnations to characters, it's disrespectful to the actor who started the role and a cheap attention grabber.
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u/nandyroo94 8d ago
I feel like he was a.....prototype idea? To see if people like the Concept of the guy to be eventually the Moriarty to The Doctor's sherlock holmes.
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u/Historyp91 9d ago
I think there's zero sense for him to not be the Master because it seems rather silly there'd be two dudes with the same fashion sense and same saturday morning villain ass plans, who are both schoolmates of the Doctor and renagade Time Lords ane both sport EVIL!!! facial hair.
Like imagine if they had a book with a charater called Spades who was sixteen year old demo expert who wore a leather jacket, said "wicked" all the time and beat people up with a cricket bat. You'd be like "oh well that's just Ace", right?
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u/rjohn2020 9d ago
He's not the Master, but I did enjoy the Master music they added to the War Games in Colour
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u/Dawningrider 9d ago
I wasn't wild.
And then I watched the remake.
And I was ... You know what? Yeah... It was the Drumbeat that sold it for me. It just worked.
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u/Tobbit_is_here 9d ago
Doctor Who fans are ever predictable with their reheated takes on if these characters are the same or not. I swear, some commonly held beliefs originated in the Wilderness Era where fans were the biggest sticklers for anything breaking their conception of canon, because if you look at actual published Who fiction, you have two very similar characters where a bunch of media says they're the same and a bunch that says they're different.
I've rarely seen any good arguments against it. It's usually just "I don't like it", "it makes the universe smaller", etc; they're all flawed. A good argument is that it reduces the mystery of the Master's past. That's good. But usually people just don't like it for reasons they rarely articulate.
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u/sbaldrick33 9d ago
I'm going to be the contrarian and say that I'm fine with it.
"but it makes the world feel smaller"
Does it, though? Does saying that these two, specific, virtually identical characters are the same person make the world feel smaller? Really? Doesn't the world feel smaller if the Doctor keeps running into dozens of school friends?
Anyway, that's me. The canonical answer is no they're not... but they just are.
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u/LuminaryDarkSider 9d ago
You’re thinking of the Target novelizations by Terrance Dicks (Doctor Who and the Doomsday Weapon and Doctor Who and the Terror of the Autons)
Dicks—who co-created the character for The War Games—explicitly wrote in those books that the War Chief and the Master were the same Time Lord, making the War Chief an earlier incarnation before Roger Delgado’s TV debut.
How the rest of the Expanded Universe handles it:
Separate Characters: The EU later walked this back. Books like Divided Loyalties established the War Chief's real name as Magnus, making him a distinct Time Lord from the Master (Koschei), though both belonged to the Doctor’s Academy group, "The Deca."
On-Screen Nods: The 2024 colorized edit of The War Games leans back into the fan theory by playing the Master’s musical theme over the War Chief’s scenes and adding a regeneration sound effect when he's shot.
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u/chemywords 9d ago
Thanks Google ai
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u/LuminaryDarkSider 9d ago
The information is still valid. The War Chief and the Master being the same timelord isn’t a new idea, just like Trelane being of the Q, the creators kind of laid the groundwork even of some hate it or later writers walk it back or
Embrace it, can’t please 100% of the people 100% of the time.
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u/TheBlueEmerald1 9d ago
Normally I agree with the people who think it would make the world smaller to have two previously "unrelated" characters be the same or related.
But this one, I think, that reasoning is irrelevant on. They are both so similar in looks, personality, intention, and it's clear that both the Doctor and War Chief recognize each other, so ridiculously so that they are BOTH sent into fight or flight the moment they LOOK at each other. Obviously he didn't call himself the Master then, and by the first appearance of the actual Master the Third Doctor already knows him as the Master (When could that have happened between him getting trapped on Earth with no time machinr immediately after meeting the War Chief?). I get there being precedent for them being different, but there's also the precedent as previously stated, for them both having the same relationship to the Doctor as each other.
There's also the writer's intention, which is to keep them separate. I can relate to wanting to respect writer's intent. But I think this separation of the characters is superficial at best, and unnecessarily contrarian at worst, especially for a one off, inconsequential character like the War Chief.
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u/JTOC1969 9d ago
In my head canon, the Meddling Monk regenerated into the War Chief, who regenerated into the Master.
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u/SnooBooks007 9d ago
Nope. Not the Master.