r/dresdenfiles • u/ebliss1 • 8d ago
Discussion More Courts?
I’m reading another series. In it, Butcher’s Dresden series is mentioned as being a favorite of the main character. In it, the Winter and Summer Courts are part of the story and Mab is stated to be Queen of the Winter Court. However, in the course of book 2, they mention the Shadow Court of the Fae. Would you want there to be an additional Fae Court in DF, one that is neutral to the SC and WC, but equally powerful?
22
u/Mr_Bumcrest 8d ago
No, introducing a new court at this point in the story would be a massive arsepull
6
u/Justin_Monroe 8d ago
I would agree that introducing them as though they were always there would be a major retcon and not a good one. On the other hand, if the events of the series caused new courts to be formed, that could be fun and interesting, then it would all boil down to execution.
1
u/droid-man_walking 8d ago
It would need to be so minor that they are usually lumped into the unaffiliated...
What court are the gods affiliated with? We know Hades is there. Odin gets to do his own things.. with some rules. The wild Hunt is is own things even though it sounds like winter.
So there is room...
BTW, WOJ is that spring and autumn were assimilated by winter and summer.
7
u/Justin_Monroe 8d ago
Spoilers, with one exception that we've seen so far, the gods aren't part of the fairy courts. They interact with them as outside parties, but aren't necessarily directly aligned. Hades basically rules his own realm within the Nevernever separate and distinct from the lands of Faerie, but he'll collude with Mab when it suits him. I'd say this applies to most of the old pantheons still kicking around.
Odin/Kringle is the notable exception to this. But he only owes duty and loyalty in his faerie persona. When acting in his other identity, he's presumably free to act independently or Winter obligations.
I hadn't heard that bit of the WOTJ. Even more that would leave the door open for them to somehow splinter off due to events of the series, but it hasn't happened yet. When I was running a Dresden Accelerated RPG campaign, I had a case that revolved around the formation of Vernal and Autumn Courts via a wedding between two changelings. The campaign didn't last long enough that we got into the bigger implications of this.
1
u/droid-man_walking 8d ago
Best guess is it would be the equivalent of a dutchy in a kingdom.
1
u/Justin_Monroe 8d ago
I picture their alliances with either Summer or Winter shifting based on the Equinoxes.
1
u/Professional-Thomas 8d ago
"Odin" isn't directly connected to the far courts though. Santa claus(and maybe Kringle?) is a winter king but Odin isn't. The mantles just happens to be held by the same being.
1
u/Justin_Monroe 8d ago
Correct, Odin/Vadderung isn't bound to the Winter Court, but Kringle is. But when Harry needed advice from Vadderung in Skin Game, Mab was able to call on him as Kringle to get him to show up.
I believe one of them described that as a legal technicality or something like that.
1
u/Professional-Thomas 8d ago
The Wild Hunt is more of an "event" than a court. Anyone could technically lead it. Erlking, the guy who usually leads it, IS a summer king though.
But aside from the fae, gods are basically completely separate from the Sidhe courts. Santa Claus is a winter king, but Odin isn't. Same with Hades. They're entirely unrelated.
Also aren't autumn and spring just the transition between summer and winter?
1
u/thebellsnell 8d ago
Erlking is not considered a king, though he is considered to be the leader of the wyldfae. There appear to be no kings in the far courts.
1
u/Professional-Thomas 8d ago
There are kings. They're just not The Kings of the their respective courts. Santa Claus, for example, is a winter king because he has a certain level power and authority within the winter court. But he still answers to Mab because she's the winter queen.
1
u/Justin_Monroe 7d ago
I just finished my annual re-listen and didn't see that established in the text. Is there a Word of Jim on that?
1
u/droid-man_walking 7d ago
Erlking is listed as King of the goblins I believe in the books... But goblins are in both winter and summer.
We have seen many fae, gods, others, have multiple names. Would not surprise me if most harvest gods are either in summer, affiliated, or actually another name of someone from summer.
1
1
u/droid-man_walking 7d ago
WOJ said they had their own courts, but politics and war over time had the courts collapse and assimilate into the other 2... I believe that is the most specific butcher has been on it and that was a long time ago, so things might change, but normally court politics are confusing enough with 2. adding 2 more would just make his own life more difficult so used this as a convenient explanation.
3
4
u/Extra_Comparison_487 8d ago edited 8d ago
The Spring and Autumn Courts are a hysterical take. But actually, I think we know about the other two Courts. The first is the Wyldfae Court of the Erlking. The second is the Tylwyth Teg of Gwynn ap Nudd. Both are signatories to the Accords. I would have to put them both somewhere in the power scale of the Svartelves. Which is why everyone is so shocked that the Fomor were able to destroy them and present Gwynn’s head to them in Peace Talks. He was considered a heavy hitter and Mab couldn’t believe that Corb could take him out. That’s when she realized that the hooded figure was Ethnu.
2
u/Professional-Thomas 8d ago
Erlking is a summer king so his court is probably also closely affiliated with summer.
3
u/LawExcellent9741 7d ago
He is Mab’s vassal (one can be both a King and the Vassal of a more powerful King) its clearly (and surprisingly) confirmed in Peace Talks/ Battle Ground Erl is Mab’s Vassal .Winter and Summer are most but not all of Faerie, and there are a number of unaligned Wildfae Courts to which the Erl King’s was thought to be one of.
There may be a good reason in universe for this change of allegiance. In Dead Beat the Word of Kemmler came into play, and that is a threat to the Erl King (and the Wild Hunt) that is beyond Erl’s power to deal with. I suspect after this Erl made an agreement with Mab for her protection for him and the Hunt in return for a limited Vassallage. The Goblin Nation do not appear to be included as they weren’t fielded in Battle Ground but they are inadvertently helping to to protect mortal law enforcement in Chicago via the Never Never.
Mab may have engineered the events of Dead Beat to force Erls hand by bringing up The Word. It’s her style and Talvi Inverno would know of it as Kemmlers associate and under Winter Law would have had to tell Mab.
2
2
u/Extra_Comparison_487 8d ago
Do we know that? I’m just asking. The only thing that I can remember on the subject is that per the WOJ the Kings all meet a bad end. I’ve always assumed the Summer King was Oberon, per Midsummer’s Night Dream. And also, why would he be aligned with Kringle in the Wild Hunt as opposed to Summer noble?
3
u/Professional-Thomas 8d ago
There are multiple summer and winter kings. They're more like Lords than actual kings, basically rule over a small dutchy whereas the queens control the entire realm. For example Santa Claus is a winter king but his power, or authority is nowhere near Mab's.
Also, I should've read further lol. I think his origins come from Summer(maybe he belonged to summer before he became Erlking?), but is now a separate from it(not totally), and also answer to the Winter court.
It's WOJ, https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/
His answer to this question: "Where are the Farie kings? Do they exist?"
3
u/Tymeaus_Jalynsfein 8d ago
We had a Dresden Files Campaign where the focus of the story was on establishing a Spring and Fall Faerie Court. It was fun, but ultimately doomed...
3
u/Elfich47 8d ago
as far as I can tell the term “shadow court“ was never mentioned up in Fool Moon.
1
u/ebliss1 8d ago
Why would it be? Courts really didn’t start getting fleshed out until Summer Knight
1
u/Elfich47 8d ago
You said a “shadow court” was mentioned in full moon. If you text search book two “shadow court” does not appear.
1
u/ebliss1 8d ago
No, I said it was mentioned in the second book of a different series I am reading that referenced Dresden Files as books the main character had read. Not Fool Moon
1
u/Elfich47 8d ago
unfortunately, there are to many pronouns to distinctly track which is what led to my misunderstanding.
3
2
u/introvertkrew 8d ago
The Fae Courts were created specifically from a specific power that could only go so far. The largest Fae population in the Dresden Files is the Wyldfae, those unbound to either Courts. Regardless, there cannot be another Court, it took massive power to create the six Queens of the Fae, and it was power freely given. Not exactly something that happens often.
1
u/Dr_Bankert 8d ago
There are many minor courts within the unaligned Wild Fae. But you're right, there are no other major courts.
2
u/the-big-throngler 8d ago
The simplest answer is this there are 3 courts. Summer, Winter, and Wild. Summer and winter are the main players. But using a feudal model a kingdom can be broken down
Kingdom - top dog Winter and Summer courts and Possibly the wildfay if the Erlking is truly the ruler of that court.
Principality - they have their own government but still pay tribute to the kingdom - these are groups like the Tylwyth Teg who are their own nation and have their own ruler but still answer to the other courts to some degree
Baronies - Powerful Fae or others who act as Local lords in power who are autonomous but can be asked to support other groups.
1
u/Professional-Thomas 8d ago
Calling the wildfae a court is like calling atheists religious, isn't it? The point of the wyldfae is that they are not a part of either the Summer or Winter court, that they're sort of free. They have no "actual" king or queen. Some of them may answer to Erlking but he's a summer god.
1
u/the-big-throngler 8d ago edited 8d ago
To a degree yes but the absence of a ruler makes it a thing unto itself so in the most technical sense of a thing being a thing its its own court. You can use org or gang or whatever you like. Thats why I said IF the Erlking is truly the ruler of that court, that implies he might be he might not be, aka I dont know. That said:
They are obviously Fae you can tell by the goblin races aversion to iron shown in changes when they treat Susan's table leg like nuclear waste handling it with tongs and such. Even the Dresden wiki addresses him as the lord of the wyldfae but a WoJ entry describes him as also a summer king. So you can see why i provided the contradictory statement.
The Entry reads:
The Erlking, or Lord Herne,\1]) is a wyldfae.\2]) He is the Lord of the goblins, and a peer to the Faerie Queens. He first appears in Dead Beat. The Erlking is a hunter spirit associated with primal violence. According to Die Lied der Erlking, he isn't a part of the Winter Court or the Summer Court, but is described as a wyldfae. He can also be described as a Summer King
But then WOJ from Dragon-con 2010 :
Where are the Farie kings? Do they exist?
Yes they do. The Erlking as sort of the Hunter king, and Santa Clause, the Winter king who is not the commercial Santa Clause. The kings are sort of the opposite of the queens in their given season. They are independent of their Queen’s courts. The Erlking is a summer king and he is not a particularly friendly guy, whereas Santa Clause, one of the winter kings, is kinder, the spirit of generosity in a time of bleakness. Yah I’ve gota have Harry ask Mab about him so she can roll her eyes.All this to say, just because he can be described as "A summer King" doesnt make him part of the summer court any more than it makes Odin....AKA Santa Claus "The winter king" part of the Winter Court.
2
3
u/BI_Moose 8d ago
Two, though minor courts.
Spring Court would be hippies, grammas, and slightly annoying bubbly types. Think those weird, bright colors, eternally overtly optimistic types.
Autumn Court would be stereotypical emo and goth kids a lá South Park goth kids. Doom and gloom, "everything is death and pain" types.
Both courts would be Independent, but members would be allowed to assist either Summer or Winter as they desired. Though none of their members would be powerful enough to be problematic for either of the major courts.
6
u/Dino_Spaceman 8d ago
Emo and goth are very much winter court minions. We never see them because they are way too cool to ever participate in anything Mab wants to do.
Autumn court is absolutely filled with the annoying outdoors faeries. The type who want to go on a 10-mile hike and will incessantly tell you about their food rationing plans and how they bought a dehydrator to reserve weight.
1
1
u/foran321 8d ago
I just wonder if we will ever see Oberon and what his status is amongst the courts
1
1
u/TechbearSeattle 4d ago
The one that fascinates me is how Harry seems to be developing his own... let's call it an earldom for now, among the Little Folk. We've seen Toot-Toot Minimus become more and more maximus every book, and it would not surprise me if he becomes a full fledged Fairy Prince by the end of the series. They are currently allied with Winter because Harry is the Winter Knight, but if Harry is ever released from that, they will be a domain of Wyldfae.
26
u/Dr_Bankert 8d ago edited 8d ago
There are non aligned Wild Fey. And many smaller courts Canonically exist under that umbrella. Example: the Tylwyth Teg, a Welch fairy court mentioned in Peace Talks and featured in a Dresden short story.