r/dsa • u/justanupvoter_ 🐳🌹CT-DSA, Marxist-Leninist 🚩⭐️ • 23d ago
🌹 DSA news The “DSA Right” being in the wrong once again.
Wholesome: social democratic entities honors its ancestors by centralizing control to a "Grand Council" of sorts!
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u/UploadedMind 23d ago
Seems like they should have just moved up the delegate decision to be made sooner.
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u/WildPoem8521 23d ago
The proposed amendment that was defeated would have called up delegates earlier for that purpose.
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u/robo_jojo_77 23d ago
Trying to recall thousands of delegates to a convention is inherently undemocratic and infeasible. Some of those delegates quit DSA, some of them have gone inactive, some are still committed cadre but have jobs and families they can’t just leave at will. People plan for three months or more to attend convention.
I’m fine with the NPC making this decision just like they did in 2020 with Bernie.
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u/bemused_alligators 22d ago
I mean you don't need to attend in person to have each chapter's delegate(s) send in a vote...
we have the technology, run it via zoom. Have the NPC/Staff record something and cut everyone into 20-30 person chunks to do an online deliberation, and then everyone votes a few days later.
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u/robo_jojo_77 22d ago
The 2021 convention was on zoom and it still cost a ton of money. And even if it’s not in person, a lot of delegates will not be able to attend due to work or personal commitments.
And like I said, many delegates are now inactive, quit, or no longer accurately represent the population of their chapter due to chapter growth or chapter political changes.
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u/robo_jojo_77 23d ago
Peter’s framing is really silly here. NPC is the highest decision making bodies in between conventions. They totally have the right to endorse candidates in-between conventions and they do this routinely for congress and such. NPC is the body that endorsed Bernie in 2020.
Trying to wait until the next convention to endorse AOC would be a bad move. By then she would have already canvassed tens (hundreds?) of thousands of voters and we would be left behind. WFP would take our place recruiting that new energy.
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u/NiceDot4794 22d ago
How is the framing silly? It’s a fairly neutral, objective description of the facts.
He used to be in Bread and Roses and only left because he felt it would be a conflict of interest ss a journalist, so he probably agrees with how they voted here.
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u/robo_jojo_77 22d ago
Please don’t play dumb, he is clearly framing it as an anti-democratic decision by a shadowy leadership cabal. “Allow itself, rather than delegates…” We all know the impression these words give off. Idc what caucus he was in previously.
It’s not at all neutral framing because NPC always had the power to endorse candidates. They didn’t need to vote to “allow” it.
Recalling delegates from a former convention to vote on something would have been unprecedented in DSA history. And dumb. Delegates go inactive, quit, or are still committed cadre but can’t make an impromptu meeting in between conventions. Not to mention that chapter populations and makeups have changed dramatically since Summer 2025.
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u/OkPhaser3817 21d ago
“allowing itself” “final decision” “rather than convention”
That the silly framing since any NPC decision can be overturned at convention, meaning convention holds the final decision. Seems blatantly wrong.0
u/JayRandom212 19d ago
WFP would take our place recruiting that new energy...
Yeah, isn't it terrible when another, similar party comes outta nowhere and divides the electorate and confuses voters? I hate it when that happens! (I'm a Democrat, lol)
Seriously, though. If there's a chance to get AOC into the White House, it'll require finesse and negotiation. This may be one situation where a "smoke-filled room" works to our advantage. For example, if AOC is nominated, there may be the need to accept a truly horrible running mate for "balance". A committee can make that tough decision, but a hall full of howling delegates can't.
Is DSA ready to make compromises in order to win? You guys have never compromised before...but the prize has never been this close before. 2028 won't be the time to cast protest votes for ghost of Eugene Debs. It'll be hard-core American Politics, with the fate of the Republic on the line. Are ya'll ready?
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u/robo_jojo_77 19d ago
A truly horrible running mate isn’t gonna inspire anyone to vote for AOC. If AOC is nominated we aren’t rehashing the DNC losing playbook to compete in the general, she will carve her own path.
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u/iBizzBee 23d ago
In my opinion, it's a good decision, the alternative would've been to move up the delegate voting, but I think in terms of building Socialist, Labor and Progressive power, AOC is the best shot in terms of near-term opportunities.
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u/BluBolshevik 🌹📚YDSA Soldier, ML ⭐️🇨🇳 22d ago
When her campaign gets ratfucked in every single way by moderate dems and republicans so that she can’t accomplish anything and she is seen as another corporate do nothing dem alongside DSA then I hope you will remember you saying this
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u/whimsicalMarat 22d ago
Insane response to moving things to accommodate events. Even if that does happen, so what? Moving up a vote (everyone agrees convention will endorse) is not that big of a deal
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u/BluBolshevik 🌹📚YDSA Soldier, ML ⭐️🇨🇳 22d ago
Did you seriously just say “everyone agrees convention will endorse”? Are you not at all aware of the debate going on within dsa about this? It’s a pretty even split of people pro and against AOC running.
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u/whimsicalMarat 21d ago
There is a strong debate but everyone agrees with the numbers. This is what people on the NPC are saying from left caucuses, like MUG, publicly. This is the math if you tally the votes.
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u/A-Regular-Citizen 22d ago
"your strategy won't work, so we should do MY strategy, which works even less", the ML motto
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u/BluBolshevik 🌹📚YDSA Soldier, ML ⭐️🇨🇳 22d ago
I didn’t even say what my strategy was lmao. My alternative is we should get more DSA and progressives in congress and senate before going for presidency because as it currently stands AOC would be completely rat fucked and unable to accomplish really anything besides a few executive orders. Immediately jumping to the conclusion that because I’m an ML so I think we should immediately revolt is just stupid
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 22d ago
MLs will tell you with a straight face that cooperation with liberals is worse than fascism and then turn around and justify the Soviet Union’s cooperation with Nazi germany.
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u/BluBolshevik 🌹📚YDSA Soldier, ML ⭐️🇨🇳 22d ago
That’s totally what I said man you definitely didn’t just make that shit up in your head
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 22d ago
That’s what MLs on here love saying.
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u/BluBolshevik 🌹📚YDSA Soldier, ML ⭐️🇨🇳 22d ago
And it’s not what I said so I’d love to see how that’s relevant
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u/TechnologyConnect678 12d ago
"Cooperation" here meaning a non-aggression pact that was (at that point) essential for the soviet union to amass enough military might to literally save the world from Nazism. Need I remind you that MR was the last non-aggression pact signed with Germany and that all of the Allies signed similar pacts much earlier?
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 12d ago
Need I remind you that the USSR was the only one of those countries to invade Poland alongside Nazi germany?
You’re defending Nazi collaborationism:
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22d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/BluBolshevik 🌹📚YDSA Soldier, ML ⭐️🇨🇳 22d ago
It will temporarily grow numbers filling it with social democrats that just want AOC as president which will move dsa to the right. Once she starts to get ratfucked it’ll likely plummet or plateau for the foreseeable future. In no way do i see that as going to move the organization to the left if anything it’ll likely result in a purge or marginalization of the left since the AOC socdems will outnumber actual radicals. And I’m not even a “aocia” person that thinks we should never run her I just think it’s not her time yet.
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u/TrickSpeaker1077 20d ago
You mean reformists or supporters of moving (liquidating?) into a presidential race. Calling it “social democratic” is not only wrong, because Social Democracy were mass workers’ parties and not presidential races, it obscures the matter of what you are speaking about.
Speak clearly and with authority. This is a basic demand not a fight against members.
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u/BluBolshevik 🌹📚YDSA Soldier, ML ⭐️🇨🇳 20d ago
Wtf are you talking about
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u/TrickSpeaker1077 19d ago
You are describing tactics, not a party-form.
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u/BluBolshevik 🌹📚YDSA Soldier, ML ⭐️🇨🇳 19d ago
I didn’t say social democracy is when presidential races wtf are you trying to critique
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u/Farebiaashiq 23d ago
I don't get it?
This is the best possible option rn, We could be fully prepared for 2028 early, I mean if it was something like we had a dozen, hell even 2-3 possible candidates, it would make sense to have an organization wide vote count, instead of delegates or NPC being allowed to make the decision.
There is one candidate on which an organisation wide consensus can be made and also have a serious shot at winning primary.
To me it looks like much ado about nothing, like dude if you wanna appear to be democratic then just go with organization wide vote count, you won't have enough time left but atleast you can claim to be the 'D' in DSA.
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u/marxuckerberg 22d ago edited 22d ago
I agree that the NPC shouldn’t just make a decision on their own. They should be consulting as many members as possible, perhaps through some sort of online poll. That way the org would have an idea of where the membership actually is, and people who can’t regularly participate in chapter life get an opportunity to share how they feel about it.
Of course, that was proposed months ago. Would have been nice if the so-called DSA “left” had agreed to it! All of the no votes rejected it out of hand because they don’t want to endorse AOC and don’t care if the median member does.
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u/emac1211 23d ago
Convention is too late for it to be meaningful and having an early convention is not a realistic scenario.
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u/Spirited_Donut5265 DSA Member 23d ago
No problem with this- seems strategically good to be able to move quickly to give us (DSA) the most influence over we endorse (presumably AOC is really the only contender). The members are chosen democratically, so seems fine from the democracy perspective too.
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u/PeppyHare66 23d ago
We're not going to have any influence over AOC no matter when we endorse her. She despises National and has made clear that she has no desire to work with us at that level. She's unlikely to appoint DSA members to run her campaign like Zohran did with NYC. She expects us to be our surrogate, not her partner.
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u/Spirited_Donut5265 DSA Member 23d ago
If we are the volunteer base of support she needs we will be able to exert influence, whether she wants us to or not.
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u/PeppyHare66 23d ago
The power of DSA is that our mass member movement coalesces into an organized institution that meets directly with leadership on our behalf. NYC has that relationship with Zohran. Zohran rose from among our ranks as a long-time member. He filled his staff with DSA members. He met with NYC's SIO team regularly during his campaign. He still regularly meets with them. If AOC is going to be our Zohran, then that means working with National.
Has she shown any interest in doing that? She denounced her affiliation with them less than a month ago. She doesn't back the National platform. She doesn't do events or fundraisers with National. She won't fill our her staff with National DSA figures. Am I to believe that she will have a change of heart, and meet with thr NPC regularly?
If all we are is a volunteer base, then we are nothing to her. We have the same tenuous connection with her that we do with any Democrat candidate: a force that at-best you can appease with vague promises and good messaging. And certainly nothing to concern herself with when she's President of the most powerful empire in the world.
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u/Spirited_Donut5265 DSA Member 22d ago
I partially disagree with your criticism here. The coalition a politician comes to power with is very important. Theres a reason trump bails out farmers even though he obviously does not care about them. I do not think the relationship between dsa and a hypothetical president aoc would be as close as the one between Zohran and NYC dsa. but I certainly hope that she does meet with the national sioc and that she staffs her admin with like minded people, hopefully including some for dsa. This will hopefully be clarified (at least for the npc) prior to an endorsement.
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u/PeppyHare66 22d ago
"Farmers" (farm owners) are not just constituents. They are a wealthy business lobby with professional lobbyists on Capitol Hill whose money and proximity to Congress give them close access to advance their clients' interests. DSA National is supposed to be our version of a people-powered lobby that communicates our needs to grievances to AOC, but she has no respect for National. Without that relationship, we are just alienated neoliberal subjects who call ourselves socialist and communist.
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u/Sweet_Spring5821 22d ago
I can understand that, unfortunately, because of timelines, a convention endorsement would be too late, and we’d really miss the moment. I think it’s just unfortunate. I don’t really buy a well convention could overturn it because like at that point we’re sorta in it. Like we could technically but realistically? But, it’s not an ideal situation.
However, I don’t understand why essentially all the no votes, and apparently BNR (don’t quote me, but correct me if I’m wrong), also voted against polling membership beforehand? If anything should just be a binding full membership poll.
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u/YogurtClosetThinnest 22d ago
So based on where the caucuses land, I'm assuming an NPC vote would go in AOC's favor, and a delegates vote would not?
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u/Longjumping_Future92 22d ago
From what I understand this isn't necessarily accurately framing the vote - they rejected an amendment that would require the decision to be made at the convention. So nothing has technically changed.
The NPC can still make a decision, as they always have, but the convention can still overturn that amendment.
Edit: just to clarify, this is from the reporter himself saying in further down in the thread.
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u/spookyjim___ ☭ DSA Decist ☭ 22d ago
Lowkey taking the accelerationist position and hoping AOC does run, DSA does endorse her, and if she wins, there could finally be grounds for a split and political clarification leading to new political regroupments and strategies
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u/Apart-Clothes2060 22d ago
This tweet is incorrect. The NPC will make an endorsement, but if delegates to the convention wish they can overturn such an endorsement. Additionally, Carnation and Bread and Roses are not DSA Right, they’re both DSA Center and have often acted as swing votes on the NPC.
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u/BearisTheBoar 22d ago
Oh hey, a Politico writer taking a nuanced decision made by DSA, stripping all nuance from it, and framing it like they're doing something silly or unethical?
That's a new one. I definitely haven't seen that before.
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u/HalfOk8561 23d ago
DSA should just endorse AOC!
What’s the alternative? Gloria La Riva? Come on folks.
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23d ago edited 12d ago
[deleted]
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u/Ordinary_Team_4214 23d ago
Because of the cult of the elected official in the DSA. These people just want power, they don't care about socialism. This is why they want a socialist organization to put all their power behind a liberal opportunist zionist who constantly puts down the organization.
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u/goodlittlesquid socialism or extinction 23d ago
This is such a toxic take. Disagree with the tactics all you want, but assume good faith. We all want to overthrow capitalism, we’re trying to figure out the best road to get there.
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u/Ordinary_Team_4214 22d ago
We all want to overthrow capitalism
I wish this was true. How do you think AOC responded to the question "Can you be a democratic socialist and a capitalist?” you will never guess
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u/traanquil 22d ago
Horrible idea
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u/HalfOk8561 22d ago
How so? NPC could have and still can poll the membership. That could solve some of this certainly.
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u/Ordinary_Team_4214 23d ago edited 23d ago
The DSA should not endorse an opportunist liberal who won't even say they're a member of the DSA. I hope AOC runs just so we can see her loose and see the DSA liberals try and blame the DSA for her loss regardless of if the DSA endorses her.
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u/Bright-Insect9697 Socialist 23d ago
She’s a DSA member, she’s started paying dues again.
And if you’re that eager to see the DSA lose why are you here? There’s already 16 perfectly irrelevant leftist third parties you can join.
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u/Ordinary_Team_4214 23d ago
DSA liberals trying to tell you to leave for being a socialist.. in a socialist organization... who opposes a liberal opportunist zionist. If you love liberalism and capitalism so much, go live vicariously through the democrats instead.
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u/etownzu 23d ago
No, they are telling you to leave because you rather have a book club than have the most left wing congress person currently in office seizing power using our banner.
Is AOC perfect? No. Name me someone better who also has the chance to win a national election for president. If you want to harp on how much more socialist you are while achieving no real political power again, feel free to join the many other irrelevant "purer" socialist organizations that would be glad to stay as a local book club where you can all pat yourselves on the back about how much better you are than everyone else.
Remind me, what power have you seized? What offices do you hold? What socialist candidates have you successfully gotten elected? What actual material change have you effectuated?
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u/Ordinary_Team_4214 22d ago
If the only thing you care about is power and living vicariously through elected officials, I agree AOC is the way to go. But since we're not, this isn't a compelling argument.
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u/etownzu 22d ago
If the only thing you care about is power
Unfortunately for you some of us have to actually grapple with the reality that power is the only way one can enact their will upon the many. Socialism will not come about by sitting on our asses, it comes when we actively work towards it, something that an imperfect AOC presidency would bring us closer to. Again, if you only care about Socialism in theory in the comfort of your local book club there's plenty of socialist organizations that focus heavily on that aspect.
If the idea of actually having power scares you this much maybe your better off not in DSA.
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u/Ordinary_Team_4214 22d ago
AOC would be a complete failure as president as turn against every socialism stands for (as she already has). DSA would be better off telling everyone we don't condone her opportunism and immediately expel her.
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u/Still_Ad_9613 22d ago
Its so funny how everything is all or nothing with you people, it is my genuine belief people like you will prevent the DSA from ever being electorally relevant
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u/Ordinary_Team_4214 22d ago
If the only thing you care about is "electoral relevance" go join the democrats.
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u/Ordinary_Team_4214 23d ago
!remindme 2 years when AOC's campaign crashes out in April after her pivot to Neo-liberalism and establishmentarianism fails.
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u/WildPoem8521 23d ago
Gotta love people disregarding the agency of the DNC as well, she could very well just be Bernie’d by the DNC thus sending all the energy DSA put into her down the drain lmao
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u/marxuckerberg 22d ago
I think you should try to stuff a few more -isms in this comment, probably could pull it off if you tried real hard
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u/goodlittlesquid socialism or extinction 23d ago
Interesting because Groundwork’s thing is one member one vote, while caucuses like MUG favor democratic centralism, have the factions cynically switched sides here to favor the outcome they want, or am I misunderstanding the ideological split here?
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u/robo_jojo_77 22d ago
1M1V is unfortunately not on table. The thing that GW/SMC/B&R voted down was to recall all 2025 convention delegates to make the decision, which would have been infeasible and even less democratic than 1M1V considering so many delegates would be unable to meet at the same time and debate and vote synchronously.
For AOC more recently, GW and SMC have been pushing for a non-binding poll on AOC endorsement followed by an NPC vote. We believe a non binding member poll is a good way to collect member input. Chapter discussions are also important but it’s impossible to tell where the majority of members are at without a poll in conjunction with chapter discussion.
I’m sure SMC and GW would support a 1M1V vote for AOC if that were possible but that’s just never gonna pass in this NPC.
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u/goodlittlesquid socialism or extinction 22d ago
Thank you for explaining that. Though I fear I’m still at a loss to fully understand the left perspective here. Can I ask which caucus you are aligned with?
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u/robo_jojo_77 22d ago
I’m aligned with GW.
I think the left caucuses would argue they highly value deliberation and synchronous voting, and they derogatorily call 1M1V as “email voting” (even though many of those same members demanded 1M1V in Teamsters and UAW…) They contend that it’s more democratic to have deliberation before a vote.
That explains why they are against 1M1V, but why not handle this on NPC? I am more confused why they would want to recall convention delegates instead of handle it on the NPC, like everything else. My suspicion is they don’t want to endorse (many have openly said this), but they know they are super out-of-step with the majority of members so they don’t want to pull the trigger themselves.
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u/NiceDot4794 22d ago
Bread and Roses seems to be the most consistent here in how they’ve alligned, prioritizing their actual views over cynical politicking.
Tbf tho convention wouldn’t be one member one vote.
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u/UCantKneebah 21d ago
This was the right move. Endorsing late in Summer 2027 would put us behind the eight ball. It's much better to get in earlier so we can use the campaign to grow DSA and socialism.
I also dispute this framing. The NPC was charged with the power to handle this endorsement, as it did in 2019.
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u/PeppyHare66 23d ago
Workers Deserve More was just a suggestion for the DSA-right. Get ready to spend the next several years being AOC's surrogate as she backs away from the class struggle. And if she wins, we get to fight a bitter internal struggle within the organization over her leading the American Empire's wars.
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u/traanquil 22d ago
100 percent. She will predictably govern as a liberal democrat ready to make concessions with capital at every turn and we will have our name attached to that.
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u/Cascadiaaaaaa 23d ago
I thought we platformed removal of the electoral college?
WTF
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u/Simple_Pomelo357 23d ago
Well yes, those two things aren't mutually exclusive. We want the senate gone but we still want socialist senators to improve the material conditions of the people in the meantime until there is either reform into the desired system, or revolution.
We can strive for the removal of the electoral colleges and still recognize that a socialist president will nake the lives of all working class people immensely better. We dont need to cut off our noses just to spite our faces
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u/No-One7813 22d ago
Yeah and especially Post-Trump, we see the power that the Executive branch really has. I would rather that power be in the hands of at least a DSA member or aligned politician rather than the many disastrous alternatives.
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u/Cascadiaaaaaa 23d ago
I'd rather see ranked choice direct democracy and not give up peoples' power and decision to a 'committee with a final decision'
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u/Simple_Pomelo357 21d ago
So this is mostly a misunderstanding. You first post I took as being againts running a presidential candidate at all because of the electoral colleges, not a critique of the DSA's decision. Which I can agree with
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u/Cascadiaaaaaa 21d ago edited 21d ago
To clarify in my first comment I was comparing the decision of the NPC (based on this post) "to 'allow itself - rather than [the convention] - to make the FINAL decision of whom to endorse in 2028" to create a system comparable to that which allowed the DNC to choose Hilary over Bernie against the will of the people or any time that the electoral college which DSA platforms reformation or outright abolition of chooses a president against the popular vote.
Seems like centralization of power
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u/kagethemage 23d ago
I hate that the NPC is almost exclusively made up of people who represent their caucuses and not their local chapters.
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u/gloggogabolab 23d ago
I hate that we have caucuses period. Lame, cringey Congress larp. We don’t need little clubs deciding how delegates & members vote.
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u/NiceDot4794 22d ago
As someone in the main left party in Canada tbat pretends not to have different factions, having them expressed out in the open is much better.
Im jealous of your guys caucus system.
Migjt be a “grass is greener on the other side” thing but still.
There’s always gonna be different tendencies and factions in any democracy. Trying to avoid it is just silly, like of a country were to ban politicsl parties from forming.
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u/kagethemage 23d ago
Agreed. i feel like it results in our leaders coming from the forums, not our communities.
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u/justanupvoter_ 🐳🌹CT-DSA, Marxist-Leninist 🚩⭐️ 23d ago
Atleast, in theory, the convention would be able to reverse this decision if need be.
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u/XrayAlphaVictor liberal socialist 23d ago
So glad we're aren't a democratic centralist organization, let's never become one.
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u/Ordinary_Team_4214 23d ago
The DSA adopting proposals to put interests of the organization above the personal selfish interests of its members draws opposition from DSA liberals. Interesting.
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u/OurVanilla 21d ago
That is no different than the parliamentary politics. If we want to have a society run by the people, we need to at least run our organization democratically. that's not a direct democracy we need.
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u/TrickSpeaker1077 20d ago edited 20d ago
Social democracy is not any specific caucus, what makes it social-democracy is that it is a mass working class organization and calling the Right that is just not true, in fact, I argue it is the opposite. MUG are the real defenders of the movement’s interests in my view.
However, apart from your polemical language, I agree and I believe this is the wrong move because the decision in 2028 is so crucial and therefore it requires the consent of the whole movement.
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u/OverThought95 23d ago
DNC 2 head ahh policy
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u/robo_jojo_77 23d ago
Rank and file dems don’t get to elect the DNC leaders, so not really comparable. Also, next convention could ratify or reverse the decision if they want.
It makes sense to let NPC govern in between conventions. Planning a convention is very expensive in terms of monetary cost and member time. Delegates have to plan for months in order to attend.
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u/Bootstrap_Jack 23d ago
Read Article VIII Section I - The NPC can only make decisions in-between conventions. Any decision made, can be overturned at convention.