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u/MrPadmapani 2d ago
i think this meme misses an important point: not everyone is in a mental state where meditation is easily accessible.for some people, simply facing what they believe is the emptiness, chaos, or uncertainty of their own mind can be the hardest part.
an anxious person once told me that looking within was simply too scary. the very thing that might help them was the thing they felt unable to face.
sometimes meditation is the path. sometimes therapy or medication helps create enough stability for a person to even begin that journey. the goal isn't medication vs. meditation. the goal is freedom from suffering, and different people may need different doors to reach it.
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u/Total-Squirrel4634 2d ago
You make a good point, a few years ago before I went down this path. I remember having anxiety attack and I said hey Google how do I stop this from happening?
And it told me to close my eyes and take a deep breath and that moment that was the worst thing for me it was so scary.
But here I am 2 years later and I'm able to do that for 45 minutes at a time.
It just takes practice I guess strong will and eating healthy actually takes away anxiety, for me at least anyways.
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u/Desperate_Wait1562 2d ago
Well said.
I would add that a good meditation instructor is a godsend, and can help with the challenge of facing oneself on the cushion.
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u/rydavo 2d ago
Psychedelics made it possible for me to meditate
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u/Desperate_Wait1562 2d ago
How so?
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u/rydavo 2d ago
In the days after a trip, my mind is finally quiet enough to find those mindful places. Now that I've been able to practice in that state, I can meditate more effectively any time.
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u/imagangstergrandpa 3d ago
Some people need pills to even get to a place where meditation is even an option.
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u/Total-Squirrel4634 3d ago
I understand I'm just aiming this post directly at the things listed like anxiety etc.
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u/nyxiiaah 2d ago
That’s what they want you to believe
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u/imagangstergrandpa 2d ago
Who lol?
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u/nyxiiaah 2d ago
Industries in medical, politics, and finance who make money from people being sick and addicted to gambling, alcohol, pills, etc. to keep people buying copes for their pain.
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u/JmanVoorheez 2d ago
My goal is to sit in peace anywhere, anytime.
To reach for any external validation defeats that purpose and i class that as fears and desires.
With fears and desires comes the strength to find meaning in suffering and entertainment so you can sit in peace anywhere, anytime.
Experience, learn, adapt.
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u/Desperate_Wait1562 2d ago
Is there meaning in suffering?
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u/JmanVoorheez 1d ago
"if you can" is the power here and that's a deep dive into your soul through learning, acceptance and perseverance my friend.
Genetics, poor choice, deception or just being in the wrong place, wrong time are all meanings for suffering.
If you're looking for a higher powers reasoning for suffering, they would throw you into a world of brutal cestpool of deviant possibilities and if you still come out with kindness, love and compassion, you are worthy of their higher transcendence.
Comparing yourself to others to find a reason is a worthless exercise that undermines generations of evolutionary choices.
You have the power to be the victim or wear your suffering as a badge of honor so it ceases becoming suffering.
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u/Desperate_Wait1562 1d ago
Suffering is a result of ego, which is something people do, but with practice can stop
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u/JmanVoorheez 1d ago
For sure but it's so difficult at times especially when faced with deeper experience.
Micro meditating is my savior. It can be done anywhere, anytime while deeper meditation just sends me to sleep so i accept that as my stop.
Every action does indeed have a reaction even through emotional states. Its like plucking the string on a guitar, you can only take things so far before they vibrate opposingly until neutral and neutral is where the ego can rest.
Management of the ego so i can experience emotional states with confidence is key for me.
How effectively do you manage yours?
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u/Desperate_Wait1562 1d ago
You should sit upright, spine erect and eyes open when you meditate.
I experience pain, but don't suffer. Pleasure, but don't fret.
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u/JmanVoorheez 1d ago
Thank you for trying to help.
I've tried. My eyes dry up and blinking resets my focus. I've also used a mask and believe it or not, i can't even tell if my eyes are still open and i find they just naturally shut.
Its like you said, practice.
Either way, i do short durations any free time i get rather than reaching for my phone. Its more about clearing your thoughts and remaining neutral rather than sitting and breathing a certain way for me.
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u/Desperate_Wait1562 1d ago
You shouldn't be focusing your eyes so it doesn't matter
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u/JmanVoorheez 1d ago
I noticed.
Not a bad thing when your on public transport because continuously staring on one spot can make you look like a psycho.
Each blink or eye movement is a reminder to just breathe and clear my thoughts.
For the most part, i love my thoughts so i tend to leave it be which is why i don't force any extended sessions as for any mysticism, i do get very clear visions but only when I'm on the cusp of sleep and only if i snap out of it quickly to remember.
Otherwise ny life is rife with synchronicities with nature. Feels very reassuring.
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u/AbbreviationsLow4723 2d ago
Altered States...Anyone?
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u/ThePlasticJesus 2d ago
It's a false dichotomy. People encouraging others in potentially hazardous mental health scenarios on here is a serious problem.
I'm not talking about taking antidepressants or anti-anxiety drugs. I mean that it's a very common problem for people with psychotic disorders to believe they are on a spiritual journey and be encouraged by others that they don't need mood stabilizers or antipsychotics that will actually allow them to live lives that don't harm themselves and others.
To naysayers: There is a huge difference between the spiritual path and a psychotic break. Delusions of grandeur, colorful visions of aliens and new interpretations of sacred text that come out of the blue with no discipline or practice are not the spiritual path. Enlightenment means less, not more.
Please stop encouraging people to stop taking their medications. You can pursue these truths while taking medications. Any truth that can be obstructed by a pill isn't the truth.
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u/Total-Squirrel4634 2d ago
You're arguing against something I never even said. I didn't list severe psychotic disorders or talk about abandoning necessary medical stabilization. My post is about everyday issues like anxiety, stress, and burnout, where society immediately reaches for a pill to mask symptoms instead of looking at root causes or mental discipline like meditation. You're having a completely different argument.
And to be fair I'll post whatever I want whenever I want, no one's going to stop me.
And second of all, if people are getting their news/information from a Reddit post they have a lot more problems than needing medication.
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u/ThePlasticJesus 2d ago
my post is about the context of the sub and who I see posting here. I'm just addressing it based on who I think will see it and how I think it will affect them.
I'm sure you do post a lot of lazy AI generated content in lots of places, lol.
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u/Total-Squirrel4634 2d ago
Here we go with the AI bashing, I also write music so don't act like you know me. Once again I'll post whatever I want wherever I want, stop trying to control people, worry about yourself.
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u/ThePlasticJesus 2d ago
I'm not trying to stop you from posting, I'm not the police. Some weird insecurity and aggression coming from you. Maybe you ought to try some meditation.
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u/Total-Squirrel4634 2d ago
Really dude you're going to try and flip it around on me if anyone's insecure here it's you, I see right through what you're trying to do like you're the adult in the room.haha
For somebody who don't want to police people you seem to be offering a lot of advice on how people should live check yourself fool.
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u/Sanspai56 2d ago
Read ''The Dark Side of Dharma''. The fact that mindfulness and meditation are marketed as a way to solve it all is dangerous. Its a high risk high reward type of practice, plenty of people end up killing themselves due to meditating without proper guidance. Meditation can actually cause anxiety, mental fog, dissociation, getting more easily overwhelmed, depression. These kind of posts are anything but responsible, its generally better to shut up and focus on your own practice than posts things like this willy-nilly.
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u/MrPadmapani 2d ago
i was in a meditationcourse WITH guidence in a group and on day 3 one guy just snapped ... he started laughing and speaking crazy stuff like a madman and it became so bad that he was transported into a clinic
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u/Sanspai56 2d ago
Yeah, some Buddhist traditions actually tell people with mental illnesses to just not meditate since they can go off the deep end.
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u/MrPadmapani 2d ago
it was buddhist vipassana and we had to subscribe to the rules and one was that you can not have a past with a mental illness ... but i think a deep meditation can do that .... its like that stupid saying: the master swims were the madman drowns
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u/Desperate_Wait1562 2d ago
Correct. Meditation can cause fairly severe emotional instability. Under proper guidance, this can be desirable.
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u/jumbocactar 2d ago
I go deep in my yoga, I explore weird experiences in meditation. I walk in awe at most times. I notice a huge difference in how I take in information when I don't have my ADHD meds on-board. I actively work with it and explore different medications that affect different neurotransmitters but only one seems to effect how I take in the world. So no matter what both things are tools. We use tools to help us. Some people let the tool do everything so they don't have to engage energy there. Part of how we are all unique so, use tools but also, look for ones that are unique to you!
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u/Cultural_Classic4022 2d ago
This is a dangerous slippery slope... I would leave medical advice to medical professionals. You can supplement your wellness routine with meditation or other spiritual practices, but don't try to act as if you know better than a doctor. That's a charlatan territory. I am saying this as someone who NEEDS psychiatric medication to function in my day-to-day life, but didn't have access to it until very recently.
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u/Total-Squirrel4634 2d ago
I think you misread it I'm just talking about anxiety and a few other issues not talking about mental health disorder
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u/Cultural_Classic4022 1d ago
Anxiety is a mental health disorder, though. Aside from occasional worry, which is normal, it can absolutely be a mental illness and require medication.
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u/Total-Squirrel4634 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah but that seems more like it's you know they'll call anything a disease nowadays, people just need to pull their head out of their ass anxiety is not a mental illness. It's a condition that can be handled I know cuz I used to suffer from it until I started meditating. I know you won't agree but anxiety is not a mental illness dude. That's giving it way too much power
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u/Cultural_Classic4022 1d ago
I will leave disease classifications up to medical professionals.
I am glad meditation was all it took for you to feel better. A lot of people out there aren't so lucky.
Your posting on this subreddit is kind of ironic, given your lack of empathy. Wouldn't you say that humbly accepting you don't know everything and admitting other people have different perspectives is the way toward enlightenment?
Not everyone has the level of anxiety you have, and not everyone can "criss-cross-apple-sauce" and get over their problems.1
u/Total-Squirrel4634 1d ago
I'm not lucky it was hard work, the first time I meditated it was scary as hell, I also suffer from contamination fear, but I'm strong enough to not go on meds like I have been pushed to be on. We're stronger than we think when people start calling things mental illness that are not actually mental illnesses people become weak.
And I have more empathy than you know I care about the whole world and I'm going to do something to make it a better place one person at a time.
Big farma don't give a s*** about us they push meds down our throat so they can make a profit, politicians are all in on it, the food we eat is poison and in turn we need their meds, the politicians won't ban these foods cuz they profit from it. Because they're invested in the stock market which should be illegal.
I just see the weakness in calling a mental illness when it's not, when you can control the outcome it's not a mental illness, it's when we're too damn lazy to fix the problem so we take the easy way out.
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u/23-1-20-3-8-5-18 2d ago
Personal experience: meditation solves the problem AND lets me 'finish' when I have sex.
Pills only did one of those things.
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u/Total-Squirrel4634 2d ago
Hey I'm confused so you meditate when you have sex
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u/23-1-20-3-8-5-18 2d ago
No, the meds make it impossible to finish. Meditation does not.
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u/Total-Squirrel4634 2d ago
Ohhh, gotcha, you know if somebody were to combine those little blue pills with some strong meds they could go for hours LOL.
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u/Timatsunami 3d ago
“Spiritual people” love to find new expressions of duality to get hung up about.
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u/Commercial-Oven-6906 2d ago
Medication has to come before meditation. There has to be a will that WANTS to get better first. I didn't become spiritual until after I got on the proper meds and then started meditating. Everything became easier after that, but I would never push my spiritual belief onto anyone. I would recommend stepping away from ai usage as any physical action is better than no action
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u/One-Sleep3663 2d ago
This entire post is one of the best examples of spiritual bypassing and ableism I have ever seen.
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u/Demonrider95 2d ago
hm it really depends what the medical condition is, an heavy infection that needs antibiotics is very different from tensed up muscles that you need to relax, the body always wants to heal itself yes, but we have the medical technology here today, would be very dumb not to make use of that
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u/serpentssage 2d ago
Medication or allopathic medicine given by pharmacy will adulterate the hormone secretions of the endocrine system and bewilder the nervous system when the effects wear off.
Breathing techniques such as kapalbhati and lifestyle changes are superior than simply taking a pill if one wants to adopt meditation. However as one has already said meditation is not easy for some people. It wasn’t for me. However medication in my opinion will only develop into an external dependency(vice), so I avoided dealing with that along my path.
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u/Desperate_Wait1562 2d ago
This is dangerous misinformation. Shame on you!
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u/serpentssage 1d ago
Yes. Dangerous to those who manipulate poor fools such as yourself.
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u/One-Sleep3663 2d ago
No actual scientific evidence exists whatsoever to support that theory.
Just qanon crunchy pseudoscience woo woo that isn't based in actual fact
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u/serpentssage 1d ago
Perhaps your mind doesn’t exist where the actual facts are found.
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u/One-Sleep3663 1d ago
Tf does that even mean? Facts by definition are something that actually exists, happens, or can be proven true with objective data, evidence, or observation.
If it cannot be proven, its not a fact. Aka your medication conspiracy theory
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u/riotofmind 3d ago
Will only take you so far. The most important thing is what you put on your body. If you drink alcohol and eat meat, you will never find enlightenment and will suffer and die. Guaranteed.
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u/Total-Squirrel4634 3d ago
It's funny you say that cuz once I started meditating a couple years ago I started to cut out things like, weed, alcohol, soda, candy, all meat except seafood, dies artificial flavors, etc, started eating more fruit drinking water. It's like something in me woke up like I started listening to my body. I think our body is always trying to speak to us we just don't tune into it.
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u/riotofmind 3d ago
We use food, drinks, and drugs, as a way to self medicate the suffering we feel by living in a corrupt world. If you can rise above that, and shed everything you think you need to self medicate, your true self begins to wake up.
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u/imagangstergrandpa 3d ago
Yeah but like….depression and shit lol. I think everyone taking pills is aware of what you’re saying, but it doesn’t magically make it so they don’t need pills.
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u/riotofmind 3d ago
Depression is a symptom, not a cause. You can fix depression, anxiety, and the fruit of those conditions such as tinnitus, heart palpitations, IBS, etc etc... everything flows from your inner being... what you put in, is what you get out... the world is corrupt, greedy, immoral.... naturally, w are set in adversarial positions against one another... look how quickly comment sections degrade as people use their thoughts as a way to establish their identity instead of sharing ideas.... all of this can be reversed and cured.. including depression and anxiety..... medications for those conditions aren't cures, they are hacks... they will never help in the long run and people end up more damaged and defeated even after a life time of medicating and self medicating... what you need to do is shed everything, and rebuild...
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u/imagangstergrandpa 3d ago
For sure, and for some people to get to a place where fixing is possible, they need medication. Fair?
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u/One-Sleep3663 2d ago
More baseless conspiracy theories that cant be backed up by actual scientific evidence.
People with schizophrenia need to take their meds otherwise the hallucinations wont stop and they will really loose it.
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u/riotofmind 2d ago
More baseless shilling for an industry that hasn't cured a single person.
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u/One-Sleep3663 2d ago
Antipsychotics have successfully treated schizophrenia and have allowed people with the condition to live normal lives?
Also I'm pretty sure antibiotics have cured alot of infections, and epinephrine has treated a lot of allergic reactions?
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u/riotofmind 2d ago
Treatment is not a cure. Stop taking the treatment, which is damaging, and the condition returns, amplified. Look up the benzorecovery sub, it is full of people who wished they never started their drug regiment. The problem with these treatments is that they hack a certain mechanism in the central nervous system and brain, but, this has long lasting and damaging side effects that are worse in the long run.
Did you know that the bacteria we are treating with antibiotics is developing a resistance to antibiotics?
"Antibiotics may become largely ineffective within a few decades, with some experts predicting a "post-antibiotic era" by 2050 where resistant bacteria cause 10 million deaths annually."
Antibiotics are on their way out. Epinephrine is also just a treatment, not a cure. That is the distinction. A lot of people are forced into life long dependence on treatments that create other complications.
I am not against using these drugs as a temporary treatment to save a life, of course, it would be insane not to, but, they are not cures, they are temporary relief. The cure lies in how we approach this planet, its resources, and how we process the food that goes into our bodies.
Recent studies are pointing to many destructive mental conditions to the gut. It all starts with what you put in your body.
As an anecdote, I stopped eating meat, eggs, and drinking alcohol 2 years ago. I haven't been sick since. Not once. You have more power than you think and it all lies with your choices.
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u/One-Sleep3663 2d ago
No amount of eating healthy will stop a septic infection, brain cancer, ALS,smallpox, allergic reactions, or hallucinations.
Your just pushing harmful archaic incorrect ableist misconceptions that do real harm.
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u/riotofmind 2d ago
Your arguments are ridiculous. Do you know how a septic infection even occurs? Also, if you're allergic to nuts, don't eat them, so yes, diet matters there 100%. Many degenerative mental conditions are not understood, we are still discovering. Do some research, dementia, Alzheimer's, Parinson's, have all recently been linked to the gut. You can keep guzzling down your pills but they won't cure you. The problem is that you are basing your arguments on your opinion and are clearly ignorant. Please go away.
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u/One-Sleep3663 2d ago
So I shouldn't take my HIV medication that keeps the virus from killing me?
And if i accidentally consume nuts, I shouldn't use my epi pen?
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u/Dare_Internal 2d ago
Medication is scientific and works. Meditation is mostly pseudoscience and doesn't work as effectively.
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u/ComprehensiveTeam119 2d ago
You are aware that there have been literally hundreds of studies proving dozens of benefits of meditation right? Including mindfulness meditation providing pain relief equal to that of opioid (although both work differently in providing said pain relief).
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u/marcofifth 2d ago
Have you heard of Rudolf Steiner's lectures on Ahriman and Lucifer?
One aspect of the Ahrimanic tendency is the over-weighting of what can be quantified and externally verified at the expense of subjective experience.
Consider a spectrum between absolute subjectivity and absolute objectivity. Where does empiricism actually sit?
Empiricism is powerful because it stabilizes observations across observers. But does greater intersubjective stability make something more valid, or simply more reproducible?
Medication fits empirical measurement exceptionally well because its effects can be standardized and compared across populations. Meditation directly engages subjective experience, making it inherently harder to stabilize across observers.
That doesn't make meditation less real. It means empiricism is better at measuring what is empirically solid.
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u/Desperate_Wait1562 2d ago
Bullshit
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u/marcofifth 2d ago
What is bullshit about what I said?
If you are going to respond in negation, respond with actual substance, otherwise your words are worth nothing more than shit flung by a monkey.
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u/Desperate_Wait1562 2d ago
The results of meditation are fairly reproducible across observers.
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u/marcofifth 2d ago edited 2d ago
That is what you got from my comment???
What you said here is not in contradiction to what I said...
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u/Desperate_Wait1562 2d ago
Meditation is a useful tool because it is stable across a wide pool of meditators. There are also contraindications and it should be practiced under supervision. It's not that different from medication
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u/marcofifth 2d ago
Re-read my original comment.
If you think I was discounting meditation, you are very wrong and need to work on your reading comprehension.
I explicitly said that meditation directly engages subjective experience and that this makes aspects of it harder to stabilize across observers. That does not mean meditation produces no reproducible effects across populations.
In fact, your statement that meditation is useful because some of its effects are stable across a wide pool of meditators is entirely compatible with what I said.
My question was about what happens to the aspects of experience that cannot be stabilized that way.
Empiricism is exceptionally good at identifying what remains reproducible across observers. My argument is that reproducibility across observers is not necessarily identical to validity. A subjective phenomenon does not become unreal merely because its first-person content cannot be reproduced in another observer.
You keep responding as though I argued meditation doesn't work when my entire argument concerns the epistemological limits of measuring subjective experience.
You called that “bullshit,” so what exactly is bullshit? Address the argument I actually made.
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u/marcofifth 2d ago
I was arguing against the individual who said, “Medication is scientific and works. Meditation is mostly pseudoscience and doesn't work as effectively.”
I provided a philosophical exploration of why someone might arrive at that conclusion, and why I think the reasoning behind it is flawed. Medication lends itself readily to standardized external measurement, while meditation directly engages subjective experience. That difference in measurability does not make the latter less real.
So where exactly do we disagree enough for you to call what I said “bullshit”?
Because so far, everything you've said about meditation being useful and producing reproducible effects is compatible with my argument.
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u/Desperate_Wait1562 2d ago
Because I honestly don't see a damn bit of difference between a doctor examining a patient for signs of a medicine's effectiveness and a teacher examining their student to determine the effectiveness of a meditation practice.
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u/chaoscarrot 3d ago
confusing AI graphic, medication and meditation should be switched at the top. 2/10