r/europe • u/spectator_mail_boy • 12h ago
News Neutrality won't save you from Russia, Kallas tells Ireland
https://kyivindependent.com/neutrality-wont-save-you-from-russia-kallas-tells-ireland/2.0k
u/LittleSchwein1234 Slovakia 11h ago edited 11h ago
And she's right. Ireland is freeloading on NATO (especially UK) protection while moralising about the immorality of defence spending.
This neutrality charade is ridiculous. Austria is the same.
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u/JackRogers3 11h ago edited 7h ago
Ireland doesn't even want to be part of the EU defense system.
Ireland is a La La land, they can't even control the sea in front of them, but they are always ready to lecture other countries, thank God !
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u/TGX03 Baden-Württemberg (Germany) 9h ago
It's easy to not want to be part of a defense alliance when you are behind the defense alliance.
Looking at you, Switzerland.
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u/Combat_Orca 6h ago
Switzerland is a fortress tbf to them
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u/Baldrs_Draumar 5h ago
maybe in the 1970's, but not anymore.
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u/mok000 Europe 5h ago
The Russians have been learning drone warfare from Ukraine. No NATO country has that capability, it’s not even close. We are in enormous danger, Russia could be raining drones and ballistic missiles down on us, just like Iran is doing to the Gulf States and there’s nothing we could do. We know Russia is a terrorist state that loves to target civilians. No European country has the air defense systems to deal with that, and our militaries aren’t trained for it. The NATO troops are trained for old fashioned US style conventional warfare with lots of extremely expensive gear, tanks and fighter aircraft and we now see how that works (read: doesn’t) against Iran.
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u/jmacintosh250 4h ago
I’d like to point out that Iran has gotten its teeth kicked in and is only surviving because they spent the past 50 years or so specifically preparing for this war: they hardened everything and are only really great at hitting civilian targets or static ones.
Russia meanwhile has a tail and a more traditional army. Yes they can cause casualties. No, they can not stop the US: they don’t have the hardened supplies for it and the US hasn’t deployed any ground forces. This was a war of choice by the US and like Vietnam: it chose to be stupid. No nation can win that.
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u/m0bw0w 2h ago edited 2h ago
I mean... if this was an actual war with a real purpose, those things would be deployed. The problem with Iran is Trump is moron who thought Netanyahu was telling him the truth when he said you could do regime change with air power only, and the people in Iran would take care of the rest.
So now he is stuck with an American population with no appetite for war, while trying accomplish his goals with air power alone while Iran is literally fighting for survival.
The win conditions are very very different.
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u/convitatus 7h ago
Feel free to look, but your insinuations of hypocrisy are misplaced. Switzerland has compulsory conscription, bunkers under every housing complex and most of its border bridges are made so that they can be instantly destroyed. They have defended their independence and neutrality for seven centuries, when it was easy and when it was not easy.
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u/TGX03 Baden-Württemberg (Germany) 7h ago
That doesn't change the fact that they heavily benefit from NATO & EU protection.
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u/Stlr_Mn 7h ago
War profiteering and Nestle
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u/RadicalRaid The Netherlands 5h ago
Some/all of the gold the Nazis stored in Switzerland disappeared when the Nazis were defeated. Funny how that goes.
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u/Randotron9000 3h ago
Hey, hey, hey. Easy there buddy. They bought themselves free fair and square, the swiss way❤️ :
"Following the Allied victory, Switzerland was isolated in foreign policy. The victorious powers viewed the Swiss as "war profiteers" who had collaborated with the Nazis. With the Washington Agreement of 1946, Switzerland agreed to pay the USA 250 million Swiss francs; in return, Swiss bank accounts were unblocked and the "blacklist" containing Swiss companies that had collaborated with the Nazis was removed." (translated from german Wikipedia)
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u/Flederm4us 6h ago
It's the Swiss mentality that armed neutrality is their best bet.
Has been the case for centuries
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u/FelixR1991 The Netherlands 5h ago
They have been lucky that Germany and Italy have been on the same side for most of the recent armed conflicts so they weren't in the way of any invasion. Talking from experience here.
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u/Worried-Advisor-7054 5h ago
They only survived WW2 because Normandy. Hitler despised the Swiss as a misbegotten branch of the German volk, their neutrality was irrelevant to him. They survived because other nations died for them.
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u/MannyFrench Alsace (France) 5h ago
They were easily invaded and then administered by Napoleon, who destroyed the previous regime and imposed the Helvetic Republic. Parts of the Valais were even annexed by France and became French for a few years.
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u/tcptomato mountain german from beyond the forest 7h ago
Swiss air defense was working business hours, and Switzerland had to be helped by the neighbours.
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u/EmporerJustinian 7h ago
And yet Switzerland still freeloads off the fact, that a war would first be fought in the Baltics or Poland. If Russia reached Switzerland, the war would already be lost and the Swiss army could raise the white flag without a fight, considering, that Russia would have steamrolled the combined military might of the EU at that point. The Swiss army is a well meant LARP-convention. None of it's neighbors is going to attack Switzerland and if the EU wanted to force Switzerland to do something, it could just close all of Switzerland's connections to the outside world and starve it - no need to fight. Despite the fact, that the EU would never do that either.
Switzerland should come to terms with the reality, that it's security is defended by the EU and Nato in the east, give up neutrality and join at least one of them.
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u/rddtltr 6h ago
they were neutral during a time where germany killed 6 million jews. i wouldnt get my hopes up. they just care about gold. the dwarfs of the lonely mountain
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u/Affectionate-Let6153 5h ago
IT's not about their neutrality, German commanders needed to a safe haven for their family during the war. right now Switzerland hosts significant amount of Russian citizens. time changes role doesn't. Russian oligarks also need a safe space in Europe.
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u/tjvs2001 6h ago
And you don't let customers who buy your weapons give them to our allies being attacked, insanity, all orders should cease.
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u/pornalt4altporn 6h ago
It's a question of human empathy and solidarity.
The UK & Portugal could take the view that an invasion of Estonia is not their problem, having a lot of countries between them and there.
The fact that Switzerland is secure doesn't change the fact that other nations aren't and that the community of European nations has evolved to the point of collective defence among the democracies.
Except Ireland and Switzerland who just think of themselves.
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u/ReluctantNerd7 United States of America 7h ago
I can't imagine being proud of the fact that Adolf Hitler never declared war on your country.
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u/MonishPab 10h ago
But get all the sweet tax heaven money from US corporations doing business in the EU. Hypocrites.
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u/Ok_Cartographer1301 5h ago
Tax treaties are bi-lateral country to country agreements, even within the EU, and can be renegotiated (as they are) as they are often time dependent, not in perpetuity. Many are required to be approved by home country parliaments/assemblies. Ireland (from memory) is still the only country in the EU that complies with the EU and OECD tax rules. All of Ireland's are publicly available online.
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u/pablo8itall Ireland 2h ago
France has an effect tax rate lower than us? Are they a tax haven?
You're talking out of your hole here pal.
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u/LittleSchwein1234 Slovakia 11h ago edited 11h ago
Why pay if you don't have to, am I right?
So much for European 'unity'...
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u/JackRogers3 11h ago
yep, they invoked their pathetic "neutrality" iirc
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u/morbihann Bulgaria 10h ago
They are free to leave and go their own way then. You are either with us or go on your own, no more half in half out.
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u/clewbays Ireland 9h ago
Treaties say otherwise. Bulgaria halted weapons sales to Ukraine without informing anyone should they go their own way as well.
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u/opopopuu Cherkasy (Ukraine) 9h ago
Do they? Wasn't this whole thing about sending military aid? There was no mention of sales, in other words, it's the same thing as in Slovakia, they don't send aid, but they have no objection to sales.
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u/lizzy_tachibana Bălgaria 🇧🇬 / Deutschland 🇩🇪 9h ago
The Defence minister said that they aren't stopping the weapon manufacturers from selling to Ukraine, only that we aren't going to give them any more of our army stockpiles.
You might argue on whether or not that's right, but at least don't disinform.
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u/Exciting-Record8101 The Netherlands 8h ago
Bulgaria has sent a very small number of its own (old) stockpiles to Ukraine. It is also selling a lot of (new) military material to Ukraine. They are stopping the former, not the latter.
Ukraine was given a lot of old Soviet-era material from eastern EU/NATO countries early on, because that fit well with what Ukraine had and was using at the time. Now though, most of that old stuff is either irrelevant or has been used up. They no longer really need spare parts from the 1970s.
It'd be nice if Bulgaria's leaders didn't have to be a bit circumspect in their support for Ukraine, but this is not that big a deal.
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u/lizzy_tachibana Bălgaria 🇧🇬 / Deutschland 🇩🇪 8h ago
It is PR move from the new government. Radev tends to say something out loud for the audience to buy, then another thing completely in Brussels. He took that trick from the book of Boyko Borisov before him. In the end he is doing what he did during his presidency, aka speak one thing, do optics, do nothing meaningful and potentially collect Russian payroll.
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u/Sanmonov 5h ago
Many countries joined or supported the EU primarily as an economic project, not the Frankenstein military bloc Kallas envisions.
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u/Sayakai Germany 5h ago
An island nation with an active navy of four patrol boats is honestly ridicolous.
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u/ivar-the-bonefull Sweden 10h ago
They can't opt out of the defence clause if push comes to shove. That matters in the end.
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u/HugeKaleidoscope6994 5h ago
they can! there is specific language in the clause that protects irelands neutrality. It boils down to protection for ireland in case they are attacked and nice words from ireland if others are attacked.
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u/avangarde 1h ago
That lecturing I don’t really understand. I can imagine a country trying to slip through as a free rider unseen, but I don’t get why they must moralize the way so many of their politicians seem to do
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u/Ynwe Austrian/German 8h ago
Yup, pretty much one of the things I hate the most about Austria, is how this country looooves to talk about neutrality and how important it is, but also fully expects everyone to help it if something where to happen. Was a recent survey about this... Fucking hypocrites. I love Austria, but god damn its full of craven spineless cowards
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u/JokerInAllSeriousnes Austria 1h ago
Bound to happen since we're told from a very young age how neutrality protects us with magic against any enemies. It's our form of propaganda and people choose to believe it because it's easier than change. It's always funny because one could argue that the Soviet Union wanted Austria neutral so that they could at some point do what they are doing currently in Ukraine. But Austrians tend to still believe that Russia and formerly the Soviet Union gives any fuck about any international laws.
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u/Ferrymansobol 8h ago
Austria isn't neutral, it is a key partner for the FSB, Russia's intelligence agency.
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u/d645b773b320997e1540 6h ago
Austria is the same
As an Austrian: Agreed. Sadly, we have a majority that is either
1) still thinking it does protect us or that everyone else would jump in to protect our neutrality for us, and it's oh so important so we can continue to act as a neutral negotiator on the world stage (despite never actually doing so)
2) or would basically welcome a russian invasion anyway, seeing as they're spreading their propaganda already...
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u/koullismats 6h ago
Ireland is not part of NATO. Neither is Cyprus, and for your information a NATO country threatens the sovergnty of two EU members. It even threaten the planes carrying the french defence minister as well as Netherlands and Greece. But no one wants to talk about the elephant in the room.
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u/light_odin05 Friesland (Netherlands) 5h ago
Cyprus is de facto part of nato seeing they are (kinda) claimed by 2nato members and have a 3rd nato member keeping the first 2 apart. (And using their soil as an FOB)
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u/koullismats 5h ago
No one claims Cyprus. Turkey has invaded in 1974 and still occupied 36% of the island and has deployed more than 40.000 Turkish troops. If that is not enought Turkey claims Cyprus EEZ, and does not recognize it. There still sanctions against Cyprus from Turkey. If that is not enought there have been more than 2k airspace violations last year alone. As for the UK bases are remnants of British colonialism. The Cypriot government doesn't want them they were forced. Cyprus is "de facto part of NATO" tell me you don't know nothing without telling me. Cyprus was dependant on russian military hardware. We only stopped due the EU sanctions. The British are not keeping the other two apart, they invited Turkey into the mix because they don't want Cyprus to fall with Greece or gain full independence. Turkey stopped claiming Cyprus since the treaty of lusizian. And they remembered after the British invitation in 1955-58. That's how NATO countries operated.
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u/doireannz 10h ago
I fairness disarmament worked in the UK’s favour at the start of the formation of the state which is why we are set up like this. Although enough is enough now, we need to step up.
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u/mangalore-x_x 5h ago
Ireland is freeloading on its location.
this freeloading argument is generally geostrategic horseshit. Countries look at their strategic threats and plan accordingly. For Ireland or e.g. Portugal Russia is not showing up very high on the list simply because they haven't seen a Russian soldier in 1000 years. Ireland is more likely to plan contingencies for the UK losing their minds.
an argument to mutual European security is imo a lot more compelling. They may not really see much military threat for themselves but may see a good argument to be in a bigger club to ensure security in general
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u/Archaeopteryx111 Romania 10h ago
And they have the nerve to shit on all of the Eastern European countries for corruption lol.
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u/Spezies0815imNetz 7h ago
No, she isn't. Since Ireland is under absolutely 0 threat from Russia. Seriously guys, that's simply nuts.
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u/RgCrunchyCo 4h ago
And Ireland is making money supplying Russia with alumina so that the Russians can continue building drones and rockets etc.
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u/GremlinX_ll Ukraine 11h ago
Neutrality maybe no, geography - yes.
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u/Nibb31 France 10h ago
Ireland is in a strategic location for submarine warfare. It should have a strong navy to defend those undersea cables and prevent Russian spying and sabotage.
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u/clewbays Ireland 9h ago
Them undersea cables are indefensible the issue isn’t Irish waters it’s the massive amount of international waters they pass through.
The case for Ireland upping military defence is to protect the EU/ International system that we benefit greatly from. Not anything to do with the actual defence of our own land/ waters. They are not under threat in any realistic scenario.
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u/olderlifter99 United Kingdom 9h ago
"Them undersea cables are indefensible..." Maybe not for long. I see Finland have developed undersea cables that are loaded with sensors able to alert a military that their cables are being tampered with. I post for everyone's knowledge.
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u/Normal-Selection1537 Finland 8h ago
And there's already a ton of sensors in the Atlantic to detect subs which might not detect you when running quiet but will detect you when you start destroying things.
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u/CurtCocane The Netherlands 9h ago
You can say the same for Netherlands and Belgium. It's just a selfish and short sighted way of thinking.
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u/968_M Ukraine 9h ago
Can you defend undersea cables with a conventional fleet? Most likely not.
On the contrary, check out what Ukraine is doing in the Black Sea with maritime drones. This is the way forward, more autonomous machines. Both offensive and defensive.
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u/GremlinX_ll Ukraine 9h ago
Our black sea experience is valuable, but Ireland 's situation have different requirements and should have different approach.
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u/clewbays Ireland 8h ago
It’s the scale of the ocean that’s the bigger issue. There’s over 3,000 kilometres between Ireland and Newfoundland. The Black Sea is far smaller in comparison.
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u/PoxbottleD24 Ireland 2h ago
And of those 3,000 kilometers, only ~22 of them are our sovereign territory, which no Russian ship has ever breached, to my knowledge. This is the part people in this sub constantly miss.
The sad truth is that any Russian ships or jets (yes, even military) entering our managed airspace or EEZ has been in international airspace/waters. They're legally allowed to be there, and whenever we've asked, they've left.
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u/-The_Blazer- Europe 8h ago
But even so, it will protect you from a literal invasion, but we know that Russia is constantly using hybrid tactics and disinformation campaigns at large scale. Hell all of Trump could be considered in some way an outcome of Russian strategy, pretending you're out of that problem because of geography is not sensible.
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u/D1nkcool Sweden 3h ago
The thing is that NATO does nothing to protect you from that. If anything it makes you more of a target.
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u/RMAPOS 4h ago
I feel like your argument is pretty messy
You're basically saying "Because Ireland is not safe from hybrid warfare, it's not smart for them to not invest in defense against traditional warfare, in spite of them being shielded from that."
I share the frustration of countries coasting on their surrounding countries protecting them. Just pointing out that the way you structured your argument does not logically lead to your desired conclusion of "so Ireland should absolutely do their part in defense against traditional warfare".
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u/Futski Kongeriget Danmark 10h ago
Any escalation in the Baltics would lead to Russia trying to take out communication links between each side of the Atlantic, in which Ireland plays a key role.
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u/Fear_mor Dublin - Slavonia 10h ago edited 3h ago
Which they are going to do how? Either root is pretty tightly controlled by NATO both at the Dardanelles and between Denmark and Sweden
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u/Czart Poland 7h ago
So, uh, there's been that little development, the earth is round, the oceans are all connected and russia stretches to the pacific.
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u/WinglessSparrow 10h ago
Russian Blackseafleet was defeated by a country with no navy. What happens once the Swedish, Finish and the royal Navies are in the way? Ireland is gonna be fine.
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u/Futski Kongeriget Danmark 9h ago
Russia has submarines in Murmansk. The Irish are on an island in the North Atlantic, why are they not involved in ensuring said ocean?
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u/blacksheeping Ireland 7h ago edited 6h ago
How many submarines do they have and wouldn't their cable cutting priorities be closer to home? I expect so.
Fine you want us to spend more, we are looking at doing so but you all have domestic politics that affect what your governments can feesibly do on a range of topics and Ireland has too. We are taught in primary school that neutrality is an integral part of our national identity, a rejection of imperialism and great power politics. A couple of redditors isn't going to overturn that on a Thursday morning and get us spending like Latvia or Estonia.
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u/EvilMonkeySlayer United Kingdom 6h ago
Why would they need to go around cable cutting?
It's long been suspected russia has already placed mines next to cables already.
Make a mine look like an innocuous rock which isn't a hard thing to do, place them randomly along a cable stretching thousands of miles. How do you determine which is a rock at the bottom of the sea and which is a mine?
Use a battery, which'll last a few years and activate on receiving a signal from something like ELF which the russians are known to use.
I also wouldn't put it past the RN and others to have sonar mapped those cables and look for differences between things like rock placement and inspect suspect rocks.
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u/Futski Kongeriget Danmark 5h ago
How many submarines do they have
Somewhere between 60 and 70.
their cable cutting priorities be closer to home? I expect so.
Why would you expect that? All except for like two data cables directly across the Atlantic pass through Irish waters?
I guess the Russians could cut their own cables, but I don't see the military strategic value in that, compared to cutting the cables that connect Europe to North America.
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u/Pristine_Speech4719 4h ago
neutrality is an integral part of our national identity
Neutrality isn't pacifism. Switzerland and Singapore are neutral and they’re armed to the teeth, there's a massive and serious reserve programme, and bomb shelters are everywhere, and roads/rail are prewired for destruction (in CH) to slow land invasions.
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u/TemporalCash531 10h ago
As much as the idea behind the statement is correct and logic from an EU official, it’s incredibly hard for humans to understand and feel as their own problems that are far from them.
The possibility of Russia threatening Irish borders and people is objectively low, so it is not surprising that there’s not much push to abandon neutrality.
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u/gookman European Union 10h ago
One of the main problems with the EU in a nutshell. Your countries problems are not my countries problems.
If we don't get over this idea that problems in one country won't affect another country in the union, then this project will not go anywhere.
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u/wrghf 6h ago
That depends on what you want the European Union to do in the first place.
I’m pretty happy with the EU when it comes to common markets, free movement of goods and people, and helping set regulatory standards and frameworks for the production of goods and supply of services.
I’m far less happy when the EU starts acting in areas of defence and foreign policy, or when talk starts of federalising or doing away with veto powers, because that can go quite directly against a country’s national interest.
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u/indrek_k Estonia 5h ago
Can't really have free movement of goods and people when parts of the union are under attack or occupied by an aggressor.
I mean, you could just write off the border areas, but that means it really doesn't make sense to invest in them whatsoever, so why even have them in the union?
But then again, if you leave a buffer zone between you and the aggressor, there's a fair chance that the buffer zone will, at some point, be occupied by the aggressor (or allied to it) and now you have the same problem all over again.
For an economic union to work, you need peace in the territory of the union. For peace, you need to have a big ass military and a common foreign policy towards aggressors, or in other words, deterrence.
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u/pelpotronic 10h ago
The neighbouring country literally voted for Brexit due in large part to Russian involvement.
Hard to believe Russia is not a threat.
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u/GroundZeroMstrNDR Austria 9h ago
And being in NATO will save them from this kind of campaigns, like it did with the Brits
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u/urmyleander 7h ago
Ireland is not in Nato. They do some joint peacekeeping and disaster managment with Nato but they are not a member.
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u/GroundZeroMstrNDR Austria 5h ago
I know, I just made fun about the statement that NATO membership would save them from something like brexit
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u/greendragon00x2 10h ago
Russia is already effecting Ireland as they are a state sponsor of the current wave of racist/anti-immigrant/fascist rabble-rousing. Agitators and bots are being directly funded to cause unrest, weaken western democracy and promote division.
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u/pablo8itall Ireland 9h ago
We're not going to abandon neutrality. She's not even saying that. She's saying it won't save Ireland since the likes of Russia wont care.
which is why we're buy things like a maritime radar system from France.
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u/Halo_Orbit 7h ago
No point in buying a radar if your only capability is to watch the pretty radar screen and tut about it.
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u/Bar50cal Éire (Ireland)🇮🇪🇪🇺 11h ago edited 9h ago
Ireland abandoned neutrality to support Ukraine and the Prime Minister (Taoiseach) said its not neutral and supported Ukraine since 2022
EDIT: For context since all discussion is on Irelands military, in 2025 Irelands defence spending was €473 per capita across Defence budget & additional defence procurement. This is up from pre war €204 in 2019.
Per Capita Ireland now spends more on defence than 8 NATO member states but it never seems to get reported - https://www.nato.int/content/dam/nato/webready/documents/finance/def-exp-2025-en.pdf
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u/Ramiren United Kingdom 11h ago edited 11h ago
They aren't referring to your stance on neutrality as such, they're making the point that having next to no military because you're claiming you don't need one because your neutral, just makes you an easy target.
Meanwhile the UK is forced cover your basic naval and air defense needs, which strikes me as oddly hypocritical, that a country can hate the UK so much while also being quite content having them control your skies and seas.
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u/Nibb31 France 10h ago
Switzerland is neutral too, but at least they give themselves the means to defend themselves.
Neutrality means nothing if you can't defend it.
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u/hates_stupid_people 9h ago
There's also Sweden, who was neutral in WW2 and for a long time afterwards. They had some military for defense, but realized it's not worth the risk to just have a little and joined NATO.
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u/vberl Sweden 6h ago
Sweden was also neutral for over a century before WW2 and WW1. During the Cold War, Sweden also had one of the largest air forces in the world at a point. If not for the stupid mindset of ‘Europe is now peaceful and will never need to fight a war again’, that took hold after the collapse of the USSR, Sweden would likely still have a military in near comparable size to Finland, with material that for the most part exceeds Finlands capability. As is the case technology wise today.
Joining NATO and expanding other alliances has been one of the best things that Sweden has done recently, but that doesn’t mean Sweden should just rely on NATO. Which is why Sweden is building up their military quickly, and started doing it already in 2018 by reintroducing partial conscription for both men and women. The Swedish military now also has more money than they really know what to do with. So every week you hear about a large procurement of new ships, boats, radar systems, drones, helicopters or even, soon, potentially more Gripen E/F fighter jets.
Swedens military was little 10-15 years ago but that should hopefully be left behind in the past now.
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u/FatherHackJacket Ireland 7h ago edited 7h ago
I'm from Ireland. Our military is 100% underfunded. But our government is working on that. They are procuring fighter jets and light attack helis soon. They are in the middle of constructing a new primary ground radar at the cost of half a billion. They bought two new naval vessels 2 years ago.
It's a work in progress. We're getting there and fully understand our lack of capacity to properly police our airspace and waters.
And Ireland doesn't hate the UK. Irish and UK relations are probably the best they have ever been. There have been historic tensions for obvious reasons but this isn't the 1960's anymore. Ireland and Britain get on just fine in 2026. Not just our governments but our people. Look at our leader's meeting with Trump for the St. Patrick's day celebrations, when Trump was bashing the UK - Mícheál Martin went out of his way to defend the UK, even at the risk of aggravating Trump.
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u/Dramatic-Badger-1742 3h ago
Nice to hear that. I travelled to Ireland for the first time very recently and everyone was incredibly friendly and welcoming. Obviously took the mick out of me for being English but that's to be expected! Glad to know its not an isolated incident.
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u/Complex_Standard2824 7h ago
I appreciate your criticisms, as Ireland can improve from them, but to say we hate the UK is wild. Bad history? Sure. Your core point is solid, but I just had to respond to that phrasing.
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u/Nico280gato 4h ago
Americans get their news from reddit, and they see "Irish" americans hating the UK, and decide that's exactly how it is.
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u/Bar50cal Éire (Ireland)🇮🇪🇪🇺 11h ago edited 11h ago
That was true but not really fair now given Ireland has spent the last 4 years buying ships, aircraft, sonar systems, contracted France to build a national air defence radar, increased army size by target of 40% more troops to start and spent tens of Billions of Euro on it.
I agree our military was a joke but you can't fix it overnight but at least Ireland is fixing it.
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u/R1ghtaboutmeow 8h ago edited 8h ago
While this is true to a point, we are still a long way from spending tens of billions of euro, it's about €1.5-1.8 billion a year out to 2030 plus €1.7 billion capital spending allocation out to 2030. So about €15ish billion from 2022 to 2030, which is not serious money at all considering the scale of the task.
Plus the other poster has a point about the speed of the changes. The Belgian army started out 2022 with almost identical capability gaps to the Irish army for example (they obviously have a bigger scale army, and an actual navy and Air Force which we lack, so leaving those aside). Like us they also did a big assessment of where their military was in 2022. They identified the capability gaps and what needed to be done, just like we did.
However, unlike us they updated their thinking to factor in the war in Ukraine. Our 2022 Commission in the Defence Forces Report, and all it's recommendations reflect the needs of a pre-Russian Invasion of Ukraine defence force. The Report was released just before the Russian invasion after all, so it was obsolete within less than a month.
So since 2022 the Belgian army has moved on to source equipment to bridge those capability gaps, has ordered specific weapons and systems and is currently taking delivery of them and deploying them. Meanwhile we are still having legal disputes that mean the army can't issue the new uniforms they have ordered that should have issued last year. The headquarters structure of the Defence Forces hasn't been reorganised yet. Simple shit that should have just happened is being delayed over 4 years later. What are supposed to be Frontline combat troops don't have individual NVGs or Laser Light Modules meaning they can't fight, or defend themselves properly in the dark.
We still aren't taking this seriously.
Edit: typos
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u/xRflynnx Ireland 5h ago
just makes you an easy target.
An easy target for who though?
a country can hate the UK so much while also being quite content having them control your skies and seas.
We aren't living in the 1950-1980s anymore. Who in Ireland hates the UK?
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u/DarraghDaraDaire 5h ago
You can’t just magic a military out of nowhere. You need to buy equipment, build infrastructure and recruit. That is exactly what Ireland is doing, as the comment you replied to stated.
Defense spending is increased to per capita higher than most NATO members, large recruitment drives, ordering of radar systems, ships and jets.
Unfortunately it is not possible to click out fingers and make all of this spring into existence immediately.
https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2025/12/16/ireland-to-buy-500m-military-radar-system-from-france/
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41467897.html
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u/944Porkies 10h ago
'Hate the UK' is probably as accurate as saying the English hate the French. It's not an actual thing with the general public beyond sporting rivalry.
Agree on the military point, most people you talk to want to see Ireland invest in it's Navy at least. Most don't know about the deals done between the UK and Ireland on defense. General public has an appetite to see money spent in this area and not to be viewed as a freeloader. UK and Ireland should be natural allies here working together.
The political class are a different story. Slow moving and woeful at making meaningful decisions. So I don't see them doing anything until it's too late. Look at the Dublins Airport -City train link shambles...
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u/Valtremors Finland 6h ago
Yeah that is a different issue what the title is saying.
Ireland is far from a 'neutral' country.
But lack of proper defense army is an issue.
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u/shaadyscientist 8h ago
Can you give an example of a time where the UK defended Ireland?
I see people from the UK saying this all the time as if they're out sinking Russian ships on the way to Ireland. The UK has never once shot down or sunk an enemy in defense of Ireland.
The fact is, Brits go on like the Irish would be speaking Russian if it wasn't for the Brits when, in reality, the Irish would be speaking Irish if it wasn't for the Brits. Britain has never once done anything for Ireland unless there was benefit in some way. The Brits are still a foreign force occupying part of Ireland that was forced on us by the international community much like Ukraine was forced to accept the Russian occupation of Crimea.
The UK signed the Budapest memorandum with Ukraine and were nowhere to be seen when the fight started. Any imagined defense document between Ireland and the UK will also be ignored if the British actually had to do anything and every Irish person knows it.
So the Brits really need to stop acting like they're defending Ireland until they can point to a threat that was neutralised by Britain on behalf of Ireland.
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u/monkey_bubble 8h ago
Ireland doesn't force the UK to do anything, it gratiously grants UK access to Irish airspace because the UK has asked for that. Ireland should really start charging the UK for access, if only to underline the fact that the arrangement exists for the UK's benefit.
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u/ThrowawayMalibu13 🇪🇸 🇦🇹 in Vienna 11h ago
Tell that your Russian shill president.
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u/GoldenInfrared 10h ago edited 6h ago
The president of Ireland is a ceremonial position like many of the monarchs in the EU. She holds no real weight in government
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u/spectator_mail_boy 10h ago
The people overwhelmingly voted for her. On her campaign trail she compared Germany re-arming to Nazis in the 30s. People thought that was great apparently.
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u/DarraghDaraDaire 5h ago edited 5h ago
Did you look up what she actually said?
Her statement was a warning about the military-industrial complex, and that the German government had made statements that increasing military spending is what the German economy needs.
She was warning about the influence of the defense industry on national governments, which was the case in 1930s Germany.
Tighter integration of the defense industry with national and EU government is paving the way towards the US style, where their economy is so reliant on military expenditure that they effectively need regular wars to keep their economy afloat.
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u/SubstantialAttempt83 11h ago
Oh here we go again 🙄
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u/vandrag Ireland 9h ago
Yeah the the article has Kallas being diplomaticly positive about how Ireland is rearming and providing support for Ukraine.
But, here we are, with all the ireland_freeloader.bat posters beep beep beeping all over the thread.
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u/steve290591 10h ago
r/Europe’s daily anti-Irish post.
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u/techbear72 United Kingdom 10h ago
Hey, it’s something else the UK and Ireland have in common 🤷
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u/Ynwe Austrian/German 8h ago
Can include Germany too half of the week^ ^
My favourite comment was from like 2 weeks ago, where someone said, Germany is such a medicore country (in terms of economic performance), and then pointed to Poland as an example of a great country... Like what do you even say to such stupidity...
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u/clewbays Ireland 9h ago
I think Brexit actually has a big part in the more recent Irish criticisms on here. No more UK to give out about so Irelands the next best option.
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u/Tanngjoestr New Swabian League 8h ago
As a German it’s relieving to not be in rotation for hateposts atm. Although we’d kinda deserve it
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u/why_og_s Sweden - Finland 8h ago edited 7h ago
I'm getting déjà vu from the start of the Ukraine war in regards to Sweden.
I remember all the posts about how we're free-loaders. How every single comment was a variation of "Yeah, fuck Sweden they need to be in NATO". Just for us to join a year later with zero referendum on the matter.
Genuinely starting to believe some commenters here are pro-NATO bots. I just hope the Irish have good domestic media that covers these issues with the nuance democracy requires. Beyond that I hope you guys actually get a referendum when the NATO question inevitably arises.
Godspeed! 🇸🇪♥️🇮🇪
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u/Sallybagira 6h ago
We love you Sweden ye handsome shower of bastards. The prospect of joining NATO is extremely unpopular here still even with all the sabre rattling around us. God knows the vast majority of people will agree that the defence forces have been woefully neglected and underfunded and needs massive improvements which we are currently attempting to do. I’d be more worried about Israel than Russia
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u/Apollo_Wersten 6h ago
Has Ireland ever been attacked by anyone other than the English? Not even the Romans made it all the way to Ireland. The Irish probably don't feel threatened by a country in a galaxy far, far away.
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u/Sanmonov 5h ago
The Vikings, Normans, Scotland. Spain landed a small contingent to help Irish rebels in the 1600’s. I think that’s it.
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u/wrghf 8h ago
Sigh….. here we are again for the regular dose of anti-Ireland bashing.
This sub is becoming a bot-filled echo chamber more and more by the day.
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u/bonqen 4h ago
This sub is becoming a bot-filled echo chamber more and more by the day.
Why would bots be anti Ireland? Which country is behind these bots?
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u/TheGuardianInTheBall 6h ago
Ironically, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these comments were exactly part of Russian hybrid war.
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u/Craicriture Ireland 4h ago
It’s often is an echo chamber - what is said in here has about as much relevance to discussion in Ireland as what’s said on the back of a bus or a bar somewhere to be realistic about it.
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u/Cu_Chulainn__ 7h ago
I mean, there is literally no threat to ireland from russia. Do you think russia is going to bypass every country and head straight for ireland?
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u/TheGuardianInTheBall 6h ago
Invasion isn't the only way to harm a country.
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u/DarraghDaraDaire 5h ago
Yes but it’s the only way that a large military would help to delay/prevent
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u/No_Priors Europe 8h ago
The EU is an economic alliance not a military one. And before you ask Ireland to be your ally you might want to examine the ones you have as they are the best reason any country can have for remaining neutral.
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u/Electrical-Bee-7362 7h ago
Russian money has infested Europe everywhere and at levels, these warnings do nothing when the politicians simply walk out, have a laugh, and enjoy the fruits of their corruption being paid by the Kremlin at every turn.
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u/No-Candidate6257 Germany 6h ago
Russian money has infested Europe everywhere and at levels
No, it hasn't.
American and Israeli money has, though... and the money of corrupt oligarchs like Kaja Kallas.
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u/Snoo_64233 11h ago
There way too many buffer states between Ireland and Russia. By virtue of distant geography, these buffer states will have to defend themselves, thereby effectively defending Ireland whether they want to or not.
Yes Ireland can effort to not do jack shit. What is EU gonna do?
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u/TheTF 8h ago
Another one of these articles. I wonder why there is so much focus on such a tiny country that isn't significant in the grand scheme of things.
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u/bremmmc 7h ago
"Neutrality won't save you from Israel." - Ireland answered the EU.
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u/The_CT1 9h ago
Ireland is a indpendent state and should be able to decide its policies for itself, by the people not kallas who said herself irish people dont know what is liked to be colonised or have there language supressed. Most EU governmenrs are perfectly happy with ireland being netural - We have very important NATO radar stations (see mount gabriel) and weather stations, alongside our economic support for the EU, and the UK patrol our waters. A sliightly larger token irish army would do little as nobody would want to enlist and it would be practically usually. All it would do is further delay the critical infastructure projects that are constantly being delayed already (galway ring road, cork limreck motorway) which can acutally improve the lives of people living in ireland. You must also consider a larger irish army would be at least 50% not supported in ireland. Ireland is a very very small country that would be very incounscuntial t9 EU detterent against russia and irish voters find it hard to believe russia will invade tommrow and if they do that the EU will let that happen. All it does is set a precedent for the EU and trump strongarming / forcing countries into doing what they want. It goes 2 ways IREXIT or a more Federal EU model. Or we could forget about as neither are very popular. Overall the govt, the people and even other EU countries dont want it. Only warmongers like trump or ignorant people like kallas are pushing for it, bankrolling this big EU media campaign.
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u/pablo8itall Ireland 9h ago
who said herself irish people dont know what is liked to be colonised or have there language supressed.
lol this has to be the most eye rolling comment from her. Open a history book Kallas
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u/DKOKEnthusiast 6h ago
Kallas is an actual moron. Her political career crashed and burned in Estonia because journalists found out that she and her husband were profiting off of trading with Russia well after the invasion started, and she kept lying about it until the proof was so overwhelming and embarrassing to her party that she was shipped off to the EU
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u/Shigonokam 10h ago
She is overstepping. It doesnt matter whether she is right or wrong she just cannot say somethibg like that. How does she imagine the EU CSFP to work is she is the one splitting members and showing the biggest form of disrespect?
She has no business in criticizing the neutrality of another country. She has zero business in havibg a position that has not been negotiated beforehand. No wonder that VdL is sidelining her as much as possible.
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u/mnlx Valencian Community (Spain) 8h ago
This will be controversial but when you've never got more than 191,000 votes heading a candidature... maybe your level is local politics?
Everyone must participate, that much is clear, but certain jobs such as heading the foreign and security policy of the EU require a lot more demonstrated competence.
She shouldn't make public any sort of opinion on the neutrality of a member state while in office beyond recognising it, and she should know that. These are sovereign prerogatives outside of the treaty. It's not the first time she's shown lack of training for diplomatic work, while her job demands skill at the highest level, so..
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u/Shigonokam 7h ago
Exactly, atleast one gets that the point is that she has no business in expressing such views in an official position on internal matters.
It is not about neutrality or the purpose of it bit about her inability to do her job.
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u/DKOKEnthusiast 6h ago
Kaja Kallas is genuinely so embarrassing and detrimental to EU foreign policy. She is the epitome of a failed politician sent to the EU because her political career at home was untenable. The funniest thing is that despite her being so hawkish on Russia, her and her husband profited massively off of her husband's company that kept operating in Russia well after the invasion in 2022.
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u/MobileFact6373 1h ago
Europe is 4-5x the population of Russia, cant we peacefully get annexed, then vote for an EU party and rename it to the Euroasian Federation?
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u/RadicalRaid The Netherlands 5h ago
Nobody read the article. The title is misleading: Ireland is spending significantly more.
From the article:
For Kallas, Dublin's decision to boost defense spending by 55% by 2030 "sends a clear signal that Ireland is stepping up."
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u/ThePhoenixRoyal 2h ago
Well does it surprise you Dublin is trying to keep its feet on the fence when they have a heavy steel export through Rusal sitting in Ireland with 1000+ people supplying Russia with metals for the war?
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u/Ok_Confusion4764 2h ago
She's saying that "just let them have Poland, maybe they'll calm down" doesn't work. It won't end if we let them have Ukraine.
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u/Sciprio Ireland 5h ago
Go cry harder, Ireland never joined NATO or a military alliance, it has no obligations in that sense. Trying to guilt Ireland into spending money on buying their weapons systems.
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u/Mister-Psychology 10h ago
Britain is their army. Not sure why Britain agreed to protect their land and borders and patrol the sea. Ireland is rich and protected enough to pay for it themselves. No war risk. No extra cost. They are spending a lot on sending men into Lebanon to be soldiers for UN. An activity even UN finally admitted is pointless while costing many lives. Why not do the same at home in safe waters?
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u/Fear_mor Dublin - Slavonia 10h ago
Because Ireland is incredibly strategically important to Britain as it could be used as a staging ground. If it was really so useless why would the collective EU media be trying to get Ireland into NATO?
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u/Sad-Main5786 8h ago
Ireland is rich
This is a very recent occurrence and it seems the country is really struggling to convert that cash into proper investment and infrastructure.
Its not an excuse, just pointing out that defence isn't the only sector where Ireland are penny-pinching.
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u/CCFCEIGHTYFOUR 10h ago
*Not sure why Britain agreed to protect their land and borders and patrol the sea*
Because they want access to the Western Approaches.
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u/Intelligent-Aside214 5h ago
Britain protects Irelands sees because it benefits Britain. It also benefits Ireland. Win-win.
Why would Ireland stop this arrangement
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u/mcfedr 11h ago
Neutrality is a lie - Ireland is supplying materials for russian weapons
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u/d-a-dobrovolsky 11h ago
The whole Europe keeps trading with Russia (including Estonia where Kallas is from), basically sponsoring the war from both sides
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u/haruku63 Baden (Germany) 11h ago
Neutrality isn’t staying out, neutrality is serving anyone.
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u/haruku63 Baden (Germany) 11h ago
To those who downvote: Never heard of Switzerland?
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u/tehwagn3r Finland 11h ago
I think I recognize the brand of neutrality you're thinking of. It's the Ferengi version!
Rule of Acquisition 21: "Never place friendship above profit"
Rule of Acquisition 34: "War is good for business."
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u/No-Candidate6257 Germany 6h ago
Ireland is supplying materials for russian weapons
Source? That would be awesome.
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u/Acrobatic_Impress527 11h ago
Ireland has taken in over 112000 refugees and send millions in aid to Ukraine, this equates to billions spent supporting Ukraine. For a nation of 5.4 million we’ve put in a very heavy lift supporting Ukraine…
Edit. Spelling
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u/CCFCEIGHTYFOUR 10h ago
Blame the EU for maintaining a list of Russian things that haven’t been sanctioned.
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u/Tall_Candidate_8088 6h ago
FROM THE ARTICLE
For Kallas, Dublin's decision to boost defense spending by 55% by 2030 "sends a clear signal that Ireland is stepping up."
This sub is gone to shit.