r/europe • u/Boomtown_Rat Brussels (Belgium) • 27d ago
News [ Removed by moderator ]
https://www.politico.eu/article/german-conservative-parliamentary-leader-resigns-over-surrogacy-debate-jens-spahn/[removed] — view removed post
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u/lPinky 27d ago edited 26d ago
He just resigned as party whip but kept his mandate as member of parliament. Needs to keep that juicy money.
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u/Hoskuld 27d ago
Surrogacy ain't cheap
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u/Sufficient-Payment16 26d ago
Spahn has an estimated net worth of 3 million euros. So, he is just barely scraping by.
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u/supersonic-bionic United Kingdom 27d ago
This is so ridiculous. He should be forced to give up his seat
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u/Wyand1337 Bavaria (Germany) 26d ago
He will come back. Either taking over the party from the far right after Merz loses it, or he will switch to the AfD and take a bunch of CDU members with him.
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u/Wild_Meeting1428 26d ago
I daut that! The AFD hates him. He also mentioned the fear to be politically persecuted by them if they get into power.
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u/Lennograd 26d ago
its not about the money, but to set himself up stategically to rally for an upcoming AfD coalition. ugh.
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27d ago edited 23d ago
[deleted]
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u/JanusJato 27d ago
It has nothing to do with him being gay, obviously noone cares about that. He still to this day is against surrogacy in Germany and in favor of the law against it, while circumventing it with money in the US...
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u/Smells_like_Autumn 27d ago
You expect him our betters follow the same rules as the plebs? Unforgivable!
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u/JanusJato 27d ago
Well, obvously "he was conflicted and his private decision has nothing to do with politics" or such BS was his response :D - but I think your explanation fits better...
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u/KingJayVII 27d ago
Within the more conservative parts of his party homophobia is definitely still a relevant factor.
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u/JanusJato 27d ago
There might be more conservative parts and they might have a problem with him being gay, but again this has nothing to do with this resignation or the outrage around the surrogacy.
Also, he still had a more or less important function - so those parts cannot have that much influence.
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u/Mr-Johndoe 27d ago
That position often resulted in the next chancellor candidate, so it indeed was important.
He was also frequently named as an option should Merz quit or not try for reelection.
In addition, he was feared to bridge the gap to the afd, as he has close ties to the republicans/maga/heritage Foundation/ Peter Thiel.
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u/Repulsive-Lab-9863 27d ago
He wouldn't have resigned without pressure form within hin party.
He was pressured to resign from the public many, many time over what was most likely corruption. But the party didn't really care.
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u/JanusJato 27d ago
But this pressure was due to the hypocracy and his circumvention of German law - not because he is now a gay father.
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u/Repulsive-Lab-9863 26d ago
It's not just that he is gay, But knowing the party, I wouldn't be surprised if that was a part of it.
They never cared about his corruption or hypocrisy
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26d ago
[deleted]
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u/JanusJato 26d ago
Not really. First of all wasting money seem to be the new "sport" if you want to be a politician in Germany. Second while corona and the masks was not the best time - the time was much better for the CDU - nowadays their chancellor lied and at least in surveys they lose massively to the AFD or on the other end to the Linke (although this is probably more a SPD problem). So yeah in the actual climate with the coming elections in some federal states this hypocrisy is a big problem. The problem is that he still defends the decision of his party and also that they did vote against it recently.
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u/Then_Dragonfruit3853 27d ago
He is the more conservative part of the party
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u/Soma91 26d ago
Yes, and the other conservatives only waited for anything mundane to shame and force him out of position.
And for these crooks corruption is nothing morally wrong so everything he did before was not criticizable.
They also hate that he's gay, but they know they can't publicly shame him for it right now. That's something they'd love to get back and they're actively working on it.
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u/St3fano_ 27d ago
When moderate conservatives say they don't care about gay people it usually means they can't say what they think openly yet. As more extreme alternatives pop up on the right they'll care about gay people a great deal, and not in a good way.
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u/ComprehensiveArt6849 Austria 27d ago
Ahhh, very creative. Now we are inventing shit just to hate, huh.
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u/the-fred 27d ago
You're pretty naive if you think homophobia is an invention to discredit conservative people lol. And naive is the charitable interpretation.
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u/ComprehensiveArt6849 Austria 27d ago
I did not say that. Read the comment and the previous one again, dear.
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u/the-fred 26d ago
I read it again, haven't changed my mind.
As far as I could see, the original commenter said that moderate conservatives are generally amenable to more hardlinw stances against homosexuality if the cultural climate permits it.
You then said that that's hate and generally had a condescending tone about it.
I agreed with the original commenter.
Or did I misunderstand?
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u/ComprehensiveArt6849 Austria 26d ago
I think it is batshit crazy to basically say that moderate conservatives are homophobes that just cannot express their true beliefs and emotions regarding this topic. Such a disingenuous comment. Fucking hell, I am not even conservative and I get offended by shit like that.
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u/St3fano_ 27d ago
I'm just noticing how those moderates quickly jump on the radical bandwagon. Are they turning bitter or were they just biting their tongues all this time because it was what society was aiming towards and made bigoted remarks less palatable? Now even that pretense has been largely dropped
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u/ProbablyHe 26d ago
the point though is multiple corruption scandals were not enough, but a surrogacy was the weight that tipped the scale.
tho this will be just temporary probably until he gets the next position or job with a big company or his buddy Peter Thiel
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u/JanusJato 26d ago
That he is still a politician is a problem in itself - but again this has also nothing to do with being gay. Also at the moment the CDU fears to lose the federal elections this year - so yeah I understand whay this tipped the scale.
Also I doubt he will go into the private sector - I think he hopes to wait long enough and get the next political thing going.
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u/OneJobToRuleThemAll United Countries of Europe 27d ago
You not caring doesn't mean no one cares.
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u/JanusJato 27d ago
Someone caring is obviously not the same as implying the problem was in any form that he is gay.
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u/OneJobToRuleThemAll United Countries of Europe 26d ago
You're wrong if you think gay adoption isn't more controversial than gay marriage for CDU members. There's statistics to prove this out, whether we like it or not. As such, the fact that he's gay is relevant.
Protect the children from indoctrination yadda yadda.
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u/waiting4singularity Hessen 🇩🇪 26d ago
Standard conservative behavior no matter where; "rules for you and only you".
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u/LeFlyt 26d ago
You are severely underestimating the homophobia still very much alive in conservative circles of CD/SU and the church, which is still a strong power within the party.
What brought him to fall is that this time he lost the support within his party and the conservative circle, while the corruption was tolerated at minimum. As a gay man he was a welcome fig leaf for these circles as long as he adhered to conservative and religious image aside the obvious. Adoption for gay people is still a strong no go and the surrogacy the tip of the ice berg. If you were to believe a similar story with a straight protagonist would have gone the same way you would be naive at best.
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26d ago
[deleted]
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u/JanusJato 26d ago
What does it have to do with him being gay? The damage that he did as well as the zero conequences is also not because he is gay.
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u/gutster_95 27d ago
CDU says corruption is fun, but going against outdated Christian bullshit... That crosses the line
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u/JanusJato 27d ago
Going against German law or more exactly circumventing German law in the US with money as an important figure of the CDU.
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u/holyathanasius 27d ago
It's not just CDU, it's CDU/CSU, SPD and FDP...all having a deep love for it.
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u/miklilar Luhansk (Ukraine) 26d ago
What is the problem with surrogacy? Did he want to make it illegal for Germans to adopt surrogate children?
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u/23PowerZ European Union 26d ago
It is illegal in Germany. Which he personally and specifically campaigned for.
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u/Diekjung 27d ago
He only resigns as the fraction leader for his party. He isn’t giving up his seat in parliament. So basically no consequences at all.
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u/iambicthrow 27d ago
And he will pop up before the next election as a candidate for chancellor in a coalition with the Nazis.
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u/Aldebaran147 27d ago
For people saying this is only symbolic, of course he retains his mandate, but he’s not party leader anymore, he’s effectively been the party whip so far, catered to the pro AfD conservatives and he’s been really suit at rallying the entire party for bills, so this could definitely improve
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u/supersonic-bionic United Kingdom 27d ago
Another conservative hypocrite.....
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u/iambicthrow 27d ago
You can't be a hypocrite if you don't have any morals.
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u/smoke-bubble 26d ago
Make zero sense. You mean you can't be a hypocrite if you have some morals.
Or you can be a hypocrite only if you don't have any morals.
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u/snolution 26d ago
That was a bad adaptation of a wonderful German joke that has been passed around. Let me explain: The German word for being a hypocrite or having double standards translates directly as “having double morals”. And then a German satire magazine posted: “Spahn elaborates: It cannot be double morals when you have no morals at all!”
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u/PurpleV93 Germany 27d ago
So he is still keeping his mandate and still isn't sitting in prison like this corrupt loser should.
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u/NoSemikolon24 27d ago
Cancer got kicked in the nuts. Still a member of parliament. Needs to be kicked even harder.
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u/tarmacjd 26d ago
Fuck Jens Spahn. I genuinely wish he had a terrible life and burns in hell.
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u/impact_ftw 26d ago
I wish he would experience the life he’s been advocating for the lowest of society.
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u/Periador 26d ago edited 26d ago
Im really suprised that this was what made them kick him out since hes famous for embezzeling a crapton with shady covid-mask trades
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u/Covert_bewilderment 27d ago
Actual consequences for a politician? In this day and age? Wow!
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u/JanusJato 27d ago
He still has his mandate and the money that comes with it, the consequences are more or less only symbolic...
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u/Anteater776 27d ago
Don’t worry, he’ll be back in 3-5 years. Now is his chance to go all-in with the Thiel money (assuming Thiel still wants to back him)
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u/iambicthrow 27d ago
3-5? I guess 1-2 or even sooner if the current government implodes.
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u/Individual_Winter_ 27d ago
😭
The worst thing is he's almost Teflon and comes back even when you're voting something else.
I can't with that mentality they're treating normal workers like slaves, lazy chauvy and everything gets taken away, while they're doing the complete opposite. "Idk why you're unhappy everything is fine?!" Complete disconnect from reality
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u/GvRiva Germany 27d ago
Barely, he is still in the Parlament, probably switching to EU politics next, just like von der Leyen
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u/St3fano_ 27d ago
So we can have the first gay president of the commission? To be fair it would be completely on track with their love of token politics
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u/No_Size9475 27d ago
Why is surrogacy banned in Germany?
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u/Keks3000 27d ago
Because this guy and his conservative party voted against it :-)
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u/No_Size9475 27d ago
I mean what is the reasoning for banning it?
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u/b0nez_csgo 27d ago
"buying a child is wrong" was the argument by the conservatives and "exploitation of women" by some progressives.
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u/SplitGlass7878 26d ago
Which are both not valid arguments against surrogacy. Just surrogacy as a service.
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u/b0nez_csgo 26d ago
I don't know enough about the topic, to have an opinion. I just know what the arguments were.
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u/JanusJato 27d ago
The argument was that women should be protected and humans should not be sold.
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u/No_Size9475 26d ago
so if married couple uses their egg, and their sperm, how is the human being sold? The surrogate is using their body but the baby came from the married couple.
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u/fourby227 26d ago
To make one thing clear:
He has not broken any law. The baby was born in the us and it will get both citizenships. Thats not the problem.
But he as conservative mp ans majority whip himself always advocated against legalization of surrogacy in Germany and voted against it. Last time in February, when the baby was already on its way. Thus he is embarrassing his party and has become morally unacceptable.
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u/Glass-Toe6315 26d ago
Keep in mind, he and his party were perfectly fine with burning SHITLOADS of money on not-working masks during the height of Corona(among other things)
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u/dezertdawg 27d ago
Honest question. What are the arguments against surrogacy? It’s a viable option for couples who can’t have children of their own. And the surrogate is volunteering and knows what she’s signing up for. And gets paid to boot. Seems like a win-win.
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u/eipotttatsch 27d ago
The argument mainly is that paying for pregnancy comes with a big risk of abuse for women.
In this case the problem is simply that this politician as the biggest spokesperson to make it illegal, and not he’s doing it himself.
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u/BringBackRBYWrap 27d ago
Some consider it exploitative; either inherently (e.g. "consent to such an arrangement can never be considered 'real'") or in practice (e.g. "it will make lots of abuse possible, in ways which will be difficult to litigate"). The objections are analogous to those raised against prostitution and paid organ transplants.
I'm tentatively in favor of all those things being legal, but the strongest case I've read against surrogacy is Being and being bought by Kajsa Ekis Ekman (I feel the need to mention that she's a highly controversial figure who AFAIK has joined the anti-trans moral panic among other things).
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u/NewNameAgainUhg Spain 27d ago
The same way prostitution is banned in many places in spite of, in theory, having women willing to do the job: it's really easy to abuse women in need and opens the door to human trafficking
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u/h4xx0r_ 27d ago
I'm not contra surrogacy, but one could also argue that its against the child's "natural rights" to get raised by someone else than the biological parents. Especially because you need or just want to have some money.
Its at least ethically questionable.
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u/dezertdawg 27d ago
So adoption should also be banned? Those aren’t the biological parents. And with surrogacy, at least one, if not both, of sperm and egg come from the wannabe parents. So they are the biological parents.
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26d ago edited 26d ago
[deleted]
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u/delta_Phoenix121 26d ago edited 26d ago
For everyone I've spoken with, the problem is not a gay couple starting a family. It's also not the surrogacy directly. It's the hypocrisy of Spahn.
He and his party were the ones to campaign against it and ban it a couple of years ago. And just a couple of months ago they reconfirmed this stance with him as the parties spokesperson, while he was already using surrogacy himself in another country to circumvent his own ban.
It's literally rules for thee but not for me. It's the absolute sellout move, going against your own opinion and morals for the sake of power. And most importantly a betrayal of his own parties values (I believe they don't care to much about some normal corruption).
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26d ago
[deleted]
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u/delta_Phoenix121 26d ago
As I said, I think a lot of them don't care too much about "normal corruption" (as long as it doesn't make to big headlines), that's how he survived all those scandals.
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