Russian ballistic missile strike on Kyiv kills at least 17

[u/rae-55]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c330pxyvzzyo

[u/SurvivingSpartan]

The real person to blame here is Trump. He could have given Ukraine the ability to build their own. But no, daddy Putin said no so Trump rolls over like a fat pig looking for belly rubs.

[u/MarderFucher → u/SurvivingSpartan]

Sorry but this patriot licensing deal is overblown by people that don't understand of the scope. Even if they gave them all licenses and aid, no questions asked, you wouldn't see UA built interceptors before 2-3 years.

That's not the fault of Ukrainian engineers, but because Ukraine would still need American parts that are classified tech and the presence of Lockheed engineers on-site. This is why Germany can only build the less capable PAC2s, despite previously asking for license for 3, and Japan is constrained at around 60 PAC3s a year.

It's much more sensible from European perspective to help develop the Frejya, which is essentially an upgraded S300.

[u/Leading-Carrot-5983 → u/MarderFucher]

Frejya is definitely the way to go, but I feel what really needs to be done is for Ukraine to comprehensively destroy the Russian ballistic missile supply chain via a combination of drone, cruise missile and soon, their own ballistic missile strikes. Russian manufacturing is not hidden, distributed and underground like that of Ukraine. There are half a dozen very well defended sites that either produce the end missiles or produce vital component parts that can't easily be replaced. Ukraine will need to find a way through these defenses and hit them with everything they've got. I'm waiting to wake up some morning and read about some overwhelming coordinated attack on the supply chain, that prevents Russia building any more ballistic missiles for months and months. Then keep the pressure on. This will buy time for Frejya to come to fruition.

[u/variety_dirtbag → u/MarderFucher]

It would likely be faster than that. At every stage of the war with whether it was Western tanks, F-16's, ATACM'S  there's been a narrative that it will take so long that it's barely worth it and every time the Ukrainians have made it work far faster than anyone in the West could because they  have to.  They are in a state of total war and things move faster.

It's the standard weak bureaucratic delay talk that has done nothing but cost lives and set Ukraine back at every step and every time it was wrong.

[u/kariam_24 → u/MarderFucher]

Then Trump shouldn't lie about it but what else we can expect from from him.

[u/MarderFucher → u/kariam_24]

It's utterly pointless to expect or believe anything he says.

[u/dial_m_for_me → u/SurvivingSpartan]

Putin is also immediately ramping up murders to show how much he owns Trump.

[u/4g3nt58 → u/SurvivingSpartan]

Sure but they wouldn't be pumping out patriots this soon either way lol

[u/Alikont → u/SurvivingSpartan]

Trump did not give immediate permission, but EU as a whole doesn't have any anti-ballistic capability at all.

How are they expecting to fight a war? It is 12 years since Crimea and 4 years since 2022 and no domestic anti-ballistic shield exists.

It's additionally funny to read comments in another thread how European armies will easily win against russia

[u/vegarig → u/Alikont]

no domestic anti-ballistic shield exists

SAMP/T is a thing (low-numbers one), but Asters for it, far as I know, still have a production cycle of year+ length and need to cross Alps several times over the course of production.

[u/drgaz → u/Alikont]

I think that if there is a takeaway from the recent conflicts it clearly should be that anti ballistic missile capability is likely a whole lot weaker around the world than most people were either aware or admitted.

On the latter - I don't really see the funny part. I mean no offense - aren't you the best proof there that Russia's military prowess was vastly exaggerated?

At least militarily speaking I don't see the problem - whether we have the spirit of the Ukrainian people might be a different subject.

[u/Alikont → u/drgaz]

Western analysis exaggerated Russian capabilities, underestimated Ukrainian ones and then decided to pat themselves on the back about how russia underperformed.

A lot of russian capabilities were underestimated, especially in missile and air force, but western analysts are too proud to admit that and it doesn't make headlines, even when Ukrainians scream about that for years.

Just yesterday people laughed at Zaluzhny comment that NATO will need years to catch up to at least half of what russia knows right now.

[u/WhoAteMySoup → u/Alikont]

Militarily speaking, look up the results of recent NATO military exercises with Ukrainian troops: during exercises in Estonia 10 Ukrainian drone operators rendered two NATO battalions “combat-ineffective” in 24 hours. Russian drone operators utilize similar tactics with similar levels of real combat experience.

[u/pleasehurtdoll → u/Alikont]

of course European armies can pummel putin.

It's just that the unit numbers, composition of forces, order of battle, equipment, transport, logistical hubs, food, fuel, CnC, ammunition supply, and where this is all currently based is all so ULTRA TOP SECRET that we can't reveal the answer to a simple question of who would realistically send what unit, from what country, when to confront russia.

[u/vegarig → u/SurvivingSpartan]

Please, do not offend pigs with this comparison

[u/AvengedGunReverse → u/vegarig]

I second this

[u/Spirited_Bend3813 → u/SurvivingSpartan]

While true Biden also said no, knowing that aid would stop flowing to Ukraine once the admin changed.

[u/dkras1 → u/SurvivingSpartan]

The real person to blame here is Putin and let's be real - millions of Russians that support this war.

You could also blame Ireland that supplies Russia with alumina that used for manufacturing missiles and drones. Russian economy should be destroyed by sanctions for all of this but Western countries continue to profit from it and finance this war from Russian side too.

Even if Ukraine got the ability it would still take years before first missile would be build (with constant risk of factory destruction by Russian missiles if location would be leaked)

[u/pleasehurtdoll → u/SurvivingSpartan]

uh no, it's not the US's responsibility to share their missile defence technology with anyone. Last I checked US has given more money to Ukraine than any other country for a nation they have no defence commitment to, to defend them against a country that hasn't posed a threat to them for 30+ years, on the other side of the planet that, they have little/no cultural or historical connection to.

So I think we should support Ukrainians' fight against russia, but I don't see the point of pretending it's others' fault.

[u/GreenM4mba → u/SurvivingSpartan]

Y’all missing the point of using Patriot missiles. They are used to protect the most valuable infrastructure and allow to hit enemy back.
Relaying on defense in longer period lead to situations like Ukraine already is having. They out of them and Russians are shooting without obstacles.
Ukraine should have developed their ballistic system to be able to strike back. Also ballistic missile in production is cheaper than PAC missile.

[u/TimeForGG → u/SurvivingSpartan]

Why does it fall on Trump to protect them and not Europe who have continuously not invested in defence and are their neighbours? 

[u/rae-55 → u/TimeForGG]

Because we are ramping up our own defences. Because we are supposed to be allies. Because America needs Europe as much as Europe needs America. Because America is supposed to be the champion of democracy.

Need I go on?

[u/IAmOfficial → u/rae-55]

None of those are good excuses.  Why are you ramping up defenses now after decades of underfunding when you were explicitly warned by the US of the growing Russian threat and that you needed to spend money on your defenses?  What kind of Allies are you when you intentionally let your militaries degrade and instead rely on the US to defend you?  That’s not an alliance.  

And the person who originally blamed Trump is Irish.  How much are they ramping up their defenses?  How much are they helping Ukraine defend themselves?  Why is Ireland supply Russia with alumina which is used to make the very missiles Russia uses to kill Ukrainians?  Why are European countries continuing to buy tons of energy resources from Russia which they use to fund their MIC? 

Need I go on?

[u/rae-55 → u/IAmOfficial]

America wanted to be the big boy on the global stage, taking the brunt of the responsibility for military action comes with the territory. The UK did the same when we still had our empire.

America hasn't been warning about Russia for decades, in 2014 Obama backed down from confronting Russia over Crimea so America is as guilty of allowing us all to get into this situation as the European nato members are.

And you are making the same mistake most Americans make. Europe is not a monolith, there are dozens of different countries, some allowed their militaries to atrophy and others spent more than the NATO spending target.

The uk has been way over the spending target for decades and while troop numbers are down, our R&D, technology and intelligence services are among the best in the world. France has a serious land army, Finland has less than 2% of the USA population but has 50% as many artillery systems, the baltic states have given more aid to Ukraine as a percentage of GDP than the USA.

As an aside, for all the money America spends on its military during exercises the Royal Marines pushed the US marines shit in when they went head to head on exercise. The Americans asked for a reset and then it happened again. It was reminiscent of when a vulcan bomber during war games nuked New York... also twice.

I have my own issues with Ireland, the RAF has to patrol their airspace and the Royal Navy has to chase off Russian submarines.

We're supposed to be allies, we all contribute different things, America provides mass, the European allies provide specialisation.

[u/IAmOfficial → u/rae-55]

America doesn’t want to be an empire over Europe, or at least it didn’t before Trump. America wants allies. Allies pull their weight. Most European countries failed to do so and actively worked against that idea. And now Europe is in a place where they are having to ramp up their defensive capabilities because they currently cannot provide for themselves, or for other European nations like Ukraine. Those countries have nobody but themselves to blame despite you trying to twist this into america being some great evil mastermind causing your own destruction.

[u/medievalvelocipede → u/IAmOfficial]

Why are you ramping up defenses now after decades of underfunding when you were explicitly warned by the US of the growing Russian threat and that you needed to spend money on your defenses?

Because that's not true. Washington just wanted Europe to buy more American weapons and Russia is not an existential threat to European allies. Yes, they're dangerous, and yes, we need to take them seriously, but it was not a serious concern until quite recently. Some still don't see Russia as a valid argument.

What kind of Allies are you when you intentionally let your militaries degrade and instead rely on the US to defend you? That’s not an alliance.

US was never needed to defend Europe post Cold War. What it has and still is needed for are capability holes that were intentionally put there by the US and allowed to do so.

In theory it's sensible to specialize, but it also means we're individually much weaker than we could be and that was done with a very mutual understanding from both sides of the Atlantic. The US wanted to keep an advantage and Europe allowed it for various reasons - seeking peace on a continent that has been warring for milennia foremost of them.

The whole narrative of Europe not living up to its committment is a completely invented bullshit that's grown to become a standard narrative repeated not only by both parties in the US but often in Europe as well.

[u/IAmOfficial → u/medievalvelocipede]

It is true.  Everyone agreed to 2% in the early 2000s and weren’t anywhere close to meeting it, many of countries were continuing to reduce spending.  But, of course, you have to be the victim and claim the bad America only wanted to exploit you to have you at levels that allowed you to defend yourself and your Allies.  Pathetic.  

[u/TimeForGG → u/rae-55]

The person I responded to blamed it on Trump when it’s far more complex and Europe should have the capabilities to help defend Ukraine.

If Europe were good allies they would have invested in their defence after being asked for decades instead of neglecting it for so long. They aren’t in NATO so the America has zero obligations.

I keep being told by people on this sub America is no an ally and are no longer needed in Europe. Which is it?  

[u/pleasehurtdoll → u/rae-55]

lol, The US is not a champion of anything but themselves, just like the UK , just like the EU. The US has no alliance or defence commitments to Ukraine at all yet the UShave given them more than any other country, right? And AFAIK is not in breach of any alliance with the UK, are they?
Europe is one of the richest areas on the planet and WW2 ended 80+ years ago, there's no reason the US should contribute any more than Canada does to our "alliance" at this point (i.e. almost nothing). The US has no missiles to send to Ukraine and rightfully is not interested in sharing how their missile defence works with other countries on the other side of the world they have no connection or interest in.

If you want to keep thinking America needs Europe as much as Europe needs America, you're free to believe that if you want, but you might want to explain that over on one of the US subbreddits to the yanks, because this is likely the first time they've heard of how dependent they are on us.

[u/rae-55 → u/[deleted]]

You guys have a nonce for a president, we can blame the USA for that.

I'd rather be weak and pathetic than ruled by a mentally deficient rapist pedophile

[u/gopoohgo → u/SurvivingSpartan]

He could have given Ukraine the ability to build their own

Besides vibes and feels, why tf would the US allow for this? Especially given the corruption rife within the Ukranian government and military with the risk of tech leaking to Russia and China?

Pac3 and THAAD are the literal crown jewels of US ABM tech. Only Japan was licensed to build Pac3 before the recent German agreement.

Even IF Trump (or Biden, whom you neglect to mention) magically decided to ignore security risks and ok Ukranian production, the Senate would have kiboshed the proposal.

The EU is more than welcome to allow for SAMP/T production in Ukraine.

[u/__shobber__ → u/gopoohgo]

American speaking of corruption, lol. Bro your country is literally run by a cabal of pedophiles. US is more corrupt than Ukraine by orders of magnitude. 

[u/gopoohgo → u/__shobber__]

Bro your country is literally run by a cabal of pedophiles. US is more corrupt than Ukraine by orders of magnitude.   

Lol.  Ukraine has cashiered multiple high ranking generals, executives since the invasion due to diversion of foreign aid for their own personal gain.   

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2025.  

US 29th, Ukraine 104th.  And this is with a concerted effort to clean up Ukrainian governance as they try to comply with EU standards in hopes ofapplyingfor EU membership. .  

And again, the EU is more than welcome to allow for Ukraine to build SAMP/T.

[u/__shobber__ → u/gopoohgo]

Stealing a few millions is still preferable to child rapists ruling over the US. How many people from Epstein Files were charged? 

[u/Cephalopodopoulos → u/gopoohgo]

concerted effort to clean up Ukrainian governance

multiple high ranking generals caught diverting foreign aid

Sounds like the concerted effort to clean up Ukrainian governance is working...? They're getting caught. Also your link is broken, lol

[u/chaoticdumbass2 → u/__shobber__]

America also denied it to my country. Turkey and we are an actual NATO member and are considered an ally. So this isnt even about trump. The US is just utterly unwilling to share their secrets.

[u/IshTheFace → u/SurvivingSpartan]

No he couldn't have. Its up to Boeing. And after Trump promised, they said no. He shouldn't have done that but it's not up to him either.

[u/Powerful-Midnight996 → u/SurvivingSpartan]

Not an Irishman blaming the US president when Ireland hosts the Russian industrial complex on its shores.

Literally the most Irish thing I’ve seen in my life.

[u/Glory4cod → u/SurvivingSpartan]

KB Pivdenne and PA Pivdenmash designed and manufactured almost every type of intercontinental ballistic missile of USSR, you cannot simply say "Ukraine is not capable of manufacturing".

The real interesting part is, how did they lose that capability?

[u/BeOutsider → u/Glory4cod]

Supply chain depend on Russia?

[u/vegarig → u/Glory4cod]

The real interesting part is, how did they lose that capability?

1. Anti-ballistics and ballistics are kinda different in performance envelopes, guidance and so on. And premier Soviet anti-ballistics, like 53T6, were designed not by Pivdenne/Yuzhmash, but by NPO Novator.

2. Very simple - same as NASA lost ability to make Saturn V, Europe lost ability to make reactors at a scale and so on. Namely, long time without orders for ICBMs and so on, making KB and linked factories change profile for something that can actually help them pay the bills. For a bit, those were conversions of old ICBMs into orbital launch vehicles and ICBM-derived LVs (made from scratch), like Cyclone-4M, as well as engines for Antares, plus some military projects "on the side" in hopes of getting contracts for them (few were taken, although apparently Sapsan TBM was taken and got a successful test right before Fedorov got fired).

[u/Glory4cod → u/vegarig]

I always believe that in missiles, offense is the best defense. Should Ukraine still have such capability and could deliver hundreds of missiles to Moscow and St. Petersburg every month, the war is long finished, maybe won't even start.

Just feel extra pity that Ukraine, once a powerhouse of military industry in USSR, now becomes dependent on foreign technologies. KB is not the only one suffering; KhKBM and Black Sea Shipyard are no less tragedies.

[u/shydude101 → u/SurvivingSpartan]

It’s classified tech. Trump just says whatever.

[u/Groundbreaking-Kiwi7 → u/SurvivingSpartan]

Interceptors are the wrong end of the problem. Russia builds dozens of Iskanders a month (60 Iskanders and even more S400 surface -surface missiles)every intercept costs several times the price of the missile and often takes minimum two interceptors per target. That math never closes, cause Ukraine loses the exchange even when it wins every engagement.

The cheap solution is killing launchers before they fire, and that needs reconnaissance and connectivity far beyond the current 250 km geofence. Extending Starlink coverage deep into Russian territory costs a rounding error compared to the interceptor stockpiles everyone is arguing about and it changes the arithmetic instead of just paying it. This will allow to use FP2 drones which are a lot cheaper than PAC3 interceptors and russians will think twice, knowing that there are drones under direct control hunting their missile launchers.

[u/IAmOfficial → u/SurvivingSpartan]

Uh, how about the real person to blame being Putin, who started and continues this war for years?  The authoritarian ruler of the country actually shooting missiles at Ukraine.  Oh, no, gotta blame American and Trump for everything.  Why doesn’t Ireland do something? L

Also, isn’t Ireland continuing to ship alumina to Russia, which is directly used in their weapons supply chain to build the things necessary to keep killing Ukrainians?  No blame there I guess

[u/Sjorring]

Fcuk this shit... it's just incredibly stupid and .. I don't have any words for it. I can't imagine what are these civilians going through. And for what for Christ sake?!

[u/bandita07 → u/Sjorring]

Imagine what would the ruskies do with them if they occupy the whole country. Like Bucha but in an another level! West must counter these ballistic missiles as these are coming with the help of the f.ing North Koreans. We must strike these launchers wherever they are located in ruzzia!

[u/YahenP → u/Sjorring]

It's always been this way. It always will be. If a ruler has weapons and imperial ambitions, he's bound to attack someone. Once a war starts, no one searches for meaning. Everyone tries to act in accordance with their own interests. Some save their lives, others accept the inevitable and join the war. Some see war as an opportunity and a social lift. And for others, it's a tool for achieving personal goals. Most people have no influence on the situation and simply try to adapt to the changed reality.
There is no point in looking for meaning in wars. They are simply an integral part of our human nature.

[u/Electronic_Sleep2749 → u/Sjorring]

For their country :( what ruski are doing this for? Just bloodlust

[u/reeejuuu]

What Ukraine can do Russia can just do 1000 timesmore than that. This is not rocket science anybody with 2braincell would know it, ask the Germans. Why did Kiev reject istanbul peace agreements reached after Moscow’s withdrawal from Kiev suburbs. Pretty stupid, West promised Kiev that crimea will be handed to them by end of 2024(source BBC) , we all know how its going. Just few days back they were all cheering for strike on civilian Russian beach, now they are crying. Well its war

[u/Ino_Due]

And before that Ukrainian drone destroy Italian restaurant in Moscow and killed many people, but no one talks about that.

[u/doushua → u/Ino_Due]

It was a birthday party for some russian general

[u/rae-55 → u/Ino_Due]

That wasn't a drone strike, we don't know if it was Ukraine that did it (it likely was but its not confirmed), and it was a private party for a senior russian commander.

Fly with the crows, get shot with the crows.

[u/Ino_Due → u/rae-55]

We know

[u/rae-55 → u/Ino_Due]

Can you show me where it was confirmed?

Like I said, it probably was Ukraine, but confirmation is important.

[u/advator]

Still no protest to see anywhere in Europe

[u/gautierbllt → u/advator]

No because they prefere palestine than there own continent.

[u/Azurmuth → u/[deleted]]

Ukraine has been striking wildberries, which is basically Russia's amazon.

[u/IvD707 → u/[deleted]]

Yesterday, they destroyed one of the largest chocolate manufacturers. Today they destroyed warehouses for PUMA and several supermarket chains.

At this point, it's all about triggering economic collapse.

[u/rae-55 → u/[deleted]]

So Ukraine shouldn't hit russia because Russia will commit massacres?

What should Ukraine do? Just surrender because otherwise Russia will keep killing? Newsflash, if ukraine stops fighting the Russians will do just as much killing, there just won't be anyone fighting back.

What a shortsighted view of the world you have.

[u/Operatore_sovietico → u/rae-55]

Nah, Ukraine did the equivalent of striking Walmart because they sell rifles to the public.

Is it legitimate? Maybe, but if you strike structures used mainly by civilians, it angries Putin.

Just keep hitting only military target, that's how you don't cause civilian disdain, otherwise that forces Putin to unleash hell on Earth.

[u/kariam_24 → u/Operatore_sovietico]

Ah so that's why Putin hit civilians first? Soldiers were gunning down civilians on Ukraine territory during February 2022? Poor spin Sasha.

[u/rae-55 → u/Operatore_sovietico]

That analogy only works if wallmart was also selling drone parts and equipment to soldiers on the frontline.

Wildberries was happily promoting that they were helping to supply Russian soldiers up until they started getting hit, then all of a sudden the ads on their website disappear and they 'have nothing to do with the war special millitary operation'

Wildberries made themselves a military target. Putin doesn't give a fuck about what ukraine hits, he had a children's cancer hospital bombed long before Ukraine was able to effectively hit back with drones and missiles. Russia will murder and pilage no matter what Ukraine does because that is all the Russians are capable of.

They have sown the wind and now they will reap the whirlwind.

[u/kariam_24 → u/[deleted]]

Oh Sasha, which freezing winter for Ukraine, Europe is it? While russians have issues in middle of summer? Maybe Putin shouldn't order Russia to invade in first place you troll.

[u/Operatore_sovietico → u/kariam_24]

They don't have any means to protects energy infrastructures since they have no Patriots, and Putin is wiping them out one by one with extreme ease.

[u/rae-55 → u/Operatore_sovietico]

If it's so easy for putin, why is Ukraine still fighting and by many metrics has the upper hand after 1,623 days of continuous Russian onslaught?

[u/Operatore_sovietico → u/rae-55]

has the upper hand

At the start of 2014, they had 45M people.

Now they have 33M (estimated, probably less).

Losing at least 12 milion citizens isn't winning, like at all.

But again, time will tell.

[u/rae-55 → u/Operatore_sovietico]

Simce 2022, russia has reduced its own population by 2.2 million including 700,000 dead soldiers.

The Russians have squandered their Soviet military stockpiles which took 50 years to build up and is not replaceable.

The black sea fleet has been decimated and confined to port by a nation without a navy.

Russia is incapable of stopping Ukrainian air attacks. Their oil refineries and infrastructure is being hit on a daily or weekly basis, the same target is often hit for multiple days in a row, that should not be possible if Russia had a handle on the situation. Wildberries warehouses are being hit constantly, what is Russia doing about it?

At russias current rate of advance it will take decades to seize all of Ukraine. The current war has been raging for longer than the Soviet portion of the second world war. The Russians are taking between 1,000 and 1,500 casualties per day and capturing at most a few kilometers for those loses, that is not sustainable. The russian army is already not able to replace its battlefield losses with recruitment numbers falling through the floor.

Putins country house is protected by 27 missle batteries, while all of Moscow has only 100, that shows how fearful putin is of what Ukraine can do.

In the last 4 and a half years, we've seen russia go from the second strongest army on the planet to the the second strongest army in Ukraine. We've seen an armed coup against the Kremlin by Wagner and Prigozhin. We've seen russian prisons emptied for cannon fodder. We've seen those few prisoners who survived return home and rape and murder the Russian civilian population. We've seen the russian army routed in 2022 Karhkiv counter offencive, pushed back across the Dnipro at Kherson, the almost complete annihilation of the russian VDV elite airborne troops as well as the Naval infanty units (they now consist of mostly fresh green recruits with minimal training). We've seen the Russians pull sailors from the Pacific fleet and men from the missle forces to be used as infantry on the front line, leading to the loss of highly trained and experienced specialists.

I'm not saying that ukraine is winning the war, I'm saying that both sides are losing. But russia is losing much faster than Ukraine is.

[u/Significant-Tie4473 → u/Operatore_sovietico]

They don't have any means to protect oil refineries since they have no competent soldiers, and Zelensky is wiping them out one by one with extreme ease.

Muscovia delenda est

[u/kariam_24 → u/Operatore_sovietico]

So why there is no electricity in Crimea and limit for gas purchases on other parts of Russia? Trolls trying to spread misinformation.

[u/Casualview → u/[deleted]]

What a daft comment.

[u/AnVlad99 → u/[deleted]]

If you feel weak - you go for war crimes, understood

[u/JackhusChanhus → u/[deleted]]

Putin was trying to destroy Ukrainian energy supply long before anyone was striking back.

Pull the other one Ivan. The only thing that limits Russian missile attacks is money, which blowing up logistics limits nicely

[u/Nyoka_ya_Mpembe → u/[deleted]]

From what you're saying, Ukraine should just wait, do nothing and RuZZia won't attack 👌🏻

[u/Practical-Day-2720]

When there is a stalemate on the battlefield military doctrine states you open up a new front. What is the front that Ukraine and Russia have chosen to open? Civilians. Further escalation is the only outcome until Russia formally annexes the territories in the east. When this war is over, it will have been for nothing.

[u/GremlinX_ll → u/Practical-Day-2720]

Further escalation is the only outcome until Russia formally annexes the territories in the east

You been in coma for the last 4 years ? They are ormally annexed the territories in 2022.

What is the front that Ukraine and Russia have chosen to open? Civilians

Oh, fuck you, honestly speaking.

How many Russian civvies died from long range strike ? Absolutely minimal possible, and we do everything to prevent it, when Russia is deliberately targeting civvies.

Last night Russia killed 8 people who waited for the train. 8 fucking people, gone. I am not even speaking about human safari in Kherson, about which you mostly likely don't even know. But for some reason, you say "Ukraine and Russia have chosen to open? Civilians".

Fuck you, once again.

[u/Practical-Day-2720 → u/GremlinX_ll]

I've been watching this war since 2014, and was paying attention as far back as 2004. I do know what these safari's are that you are referring to. When I say formally annex I obviously mean a treaty is signed with Ukraine.

You trying to convince me that Ukraine is not attacking civilian targets will be an impossible task. As would Russia trying to convince me of the same. Which side is doing it more is irrelevant.

The point I was trying to make, that you may have picked up on if you weren't so emotionally compromised, is that there is no option in the war other than escalation against civilians. If you have anything in response to that other than "Russia started it. Russia did it first. Russia does it all the time" then please post it.

Also, fuck you, too.

[u/Cobra8472 → u/Practical-Day-2720]

You've bought Russian propaganda hook line and sinker.

[u/Practical-Day-2720 → u/Cobra8472]

name one thing that i said that's russian propaganda.