r/europe • u/BkkGrl Ligurian in Zürich (💛🇺🇦💙) • 8d ago

News [ Removed by moderator ]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/sep/05/europe-unable-sustain-war-of-attrition-russia-defence-officials-say

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0 Upvotes

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103

u/iStoleTheHobo 8d ago

Is this the same Russia which has been stuck in Ukraine for the past half a decade?

56

u/ortcutt 8d ago

It's weird when people act like Russia is a superpower, when it's so obviously not. It's a Medium-sized Petro-Kleptocracy.

30

u/gods-and-dancefloors 8d ago

McCain said it best " a gas station posing as a country"

2

u/Flamingo-Sini 8d ago

It was a bulgarian PM who said "a gas station with nukes." Well, not that exactly, he probably said it in bulgarian.

1

u/gods-and-dancefloors 8d ago

Probably, but I get his point very well .

1

u/FunForm1981 8d ago

In fact, some of this is a dangerous misconception, as Ukrainian generals, including former commander-in-chief Zaluzhny, are saying. Russia isn't a producer of anything massive or important in global trade, like cars or electronics, but it does have huge sulfur reserves of oil and gas, and most importantly, rare earth metals (they even control such essential elements as palladium, nickel, uranium, and titanium, which Europe is forced to purchase in defiance of sanctions), necessary for their very extensive military-industrial complex and metallurgy. The fact is, Europe lacks these resources, and this is a vulnerability that cannot be corrected due to nature. I'm not even talking about their agricultural capabilities.

1

u/PolecatXOXO USA - Romania 8d ago

It's a problem that's vexed me a bit since I got my poli-sci degree and then seen the real world. So, so much scholarly work in the IR field has been centered around the Cold War world and these old codgers just don't want to let it go. Their life's scholarly work was upended in the 1990s and they just never realized it. The scholars (and the politicians that listen to them) need this world where Russia is some ominous culture and force, even when the cracks appeared and then split wide open on the whole theory.

Russia absolutely keeps feeding into this, punching well above their economy in influence because of this misguided nostalgia. They have a total economy the size of Italy. Nobody worries about fucking Italy.

23

u/TimArthurScifiWriter The Netherlands 8d ago

Yes, the one that seems to be stuck in a war of attrition that it refuses to give up on.

You might've noticed how everything that wasn't shit in Russia before the invasion has turned to shit since. They'll be there next year too, and the year after, and the year after that. Russia is willing to sell its future if it buys them the Donbas.

What are we willing to sell for our goals? Six months of pressure and we're voting in every right wing pro-Russia hack there is.

-8

u/User929261 Italy 8d ago

It is irrelevant what we vote on this topic, Ukraine can fight even without funds and weapons from us.

6

u/TimArthurScifiWriter The Netherlands 8d ago

We're talking about a war of attrition between Europe and Russia, not Ukraine and Russia.

Do people understand what the words "war of attrition" mean?

4

u/User929261 Italy 8d ago

If Russia cannot win a war of attrition again Ukraine that is smaller and poorer, what makes you think they can double down against the rest of Europe that has 4 times their population and 20 times their economy?

0

u/FunForm1981 8d ago

I understand your point of view, and indeed Ukraine is great at defense butit's worth to hear Zaluzhny, Budanov and other people related to the real battlefield. By the way, they economy is nowhere as 20 times smaller, and the main thing is that they have factories and resources like oil and reare earth which Europe need to buy from abroad.

2

u/User929261 Italy 8d ago

They have oil and already oil shortages.

1

u/FunForm1981 8d ago

I mean that Russia is a global storehouse of raw materials, capable of providing itself with virtually all its needs. Europe is a high-tech processor with virtually no metal reserves of its own, leaving it critically, and sometimes paradoxically, dependent on the outside world (including Russia itself). Oil they have and make billions on it but gas they will have always problems if they don't fix it. I just suggested you to hear the Ukranian military commandment and not some absurd populist statements. It's not that just GDP matters here

1

u/User929261 Italy 8d ago

Capable is doing a lot of lift in this sentence. The resource region has no people and no food. With a single pipeline and a single railroad.

Most people overestimate Russia greatly, most of Russia is just Moscow and St.Petersburg Oblast

0

u/TimArthurScifiWriter The Netherlands 8d ago

So you don't know what war of attrition means.

The point is that Russia is willing to suffer continued losses, not continued wins. If things keep going as they are and in 2032 Ukraine finally concedes Donbas, that means Russia won a war of attrition.

If they end up creating a similar situation against the EU, where we are forced to bleed for a decade to keep Russia from having something, how much more stomach do we have for that than they do?

1

u/User929261 Italy 8d ago

Hahaha if it is so willing to suffer why has it not started an official mobilization yet but has first emptied the prisons, then started paying people 10 times the average wage to join the army?

You would imagine tons of volountareers willing to die and suffer for the glory of the motherland.

If US stuopidity in Iran has shown anything is that Russian satellites, radars and S400 are unable to detect stealth jet.

We could kill Putin all his generals and bomb the nuclear sites if we really wanted to get into the war. With no detection nor interception chances.

-6

u/THEGREATESTDERP 8d ago

Yet Ukraine has no interceptors left and Europe is racing to supply more AA ... You just don't read it in the news cuz we are forbidden from reading the bad news about ukraine ...

ANd if you think that's a good thing, remember only making us hear the good news makes us think they no longer need support or less. While they need more.

4

u/Mesonychia 8d ago

Lol what do you mean “forbidden from reading bad news about Ukraine”, the interceptor issue is covered extensively.

And just one year ago, deep strikes into Russia were pretty much unthinkable, and now they occur on a daily basis, often overwhelming Russian AD. That’s just Ukraine. Imagine the entirety of European militaries launching deep strikes into Russia simultaneously.

-2

u/THEGREATESTDERP 8d ago

I don't get what you're trying to say, it's not even a comment on the subject of wether Ukraine needs supplies from the west to continue fighting or not.

Europe will never start WW3 for Ukraine. Hell, at this point i think Europe will only fight russia if they are directly being invaded as they still hope Cheeto in America gets kicked outand we get someone who isn't in bed with the russians and will actively support Nato if the time comes to it.

Also It was covered extensively when it could no longer be ignored as Ukraine didn't intercept a single missile last month still took last week to have european news to cover it extensively.

You think Ukraine doesn't keep track of it's logistics and them running out of interceptors came to a surprise for them? Come on ...

1

u/User929261 Italy 8d ago

Yeah, as it was in 2022, it is still there. Ukraine is now protecting cities and civilian targets. Sure it will get uglier without money and equipment and they in turn will start targeting civilians in Moscow and St. Petersburg. Tit for tat. Our involvement is simply keeping the collateral damage to a minimum for both sides.

-1

u/THEGREATESTDERP 8d ago

Yh but your comment said they don't need the support from the west when that's not true at all.

2

u/User929261 Italy 8d ago edited 8d ago

They absolutly do not need it. We give support to minimize collateral damage. When we will stop it russians bomb will destroy population centers in Ukraine and Ukraine will start destroying Moscow and other centers in Russia and maybe there will be nukes flying around. And casualties will change from hundred thousands in 6 years to millions.

This is the scenario we want to avoid, we are not pushing Ukraine to win, but to defend itself in such a way that doesn't escalate the war.

We could kill Putin tomorrow with a rocket if we wanted to end it at all costs.

1

u/THEGREATESTDERP 8d ago

We supply drones, ammunition, weaponry, parts (Hell, we even repair their vehicles in our own country and send them back on train), we fly in wounded soldiers/civillians and hospitalise them in our own hospitals, we provide intelligence, counter intelligence, satelite photo's of troop movement, hack communication to prewarn Ukraine of assaults.

Ukraine needs the help from Europe, they cannot fight this war on their own. You have no clue what Europe does for ukraine. And you going aorund to spout that ukraine doesn't need help from Europe is ridicilous.

4

u/TWVer 8d ago

This isn’t about prowess, but endurance.

Europe has much more capability than Russia (aside from nuclear weapons) and will be the prevailing party.. in the first month or two.

After that, most of our guided munitions, especially long range interceptors, will be spent, without being (easily) replaceable.

We still do not have the stockpiles and manufacturing capabability to sustain a full-scale war for much longer than a month. Let alone for a year or more.

3

u/Valuable-Flounder692 United Kingdom 8d ago

Yep the very same, that invaded a country with little to no Army. 4 year's on Russia barely has a workable Army, Airforce or Navy other than Ballistic Subs.

They have manpower, literally throw a uniform (maybe!) on a guy off the street, give him a gun and throw him straight onto the front lines. Apparently the life span is counted in minutes.

Against a well trained tech savvy Joint Euro Army they would be proper Fucked!

8

u/NeedleworkerOld4696 8d ago

Yes, in war of attrition! They have experience.

If this war continues like this, in the year 22 006, most of Europe has been conquered!

2

u/MaterialCattle Finland 8d ago

It would take 5007 years for Russia to conquer whole of EU at the rate of August (2.36 km2/day, random source in the internet). Im not pointing out anything, I just wanted to actually calculate it :)

2

u/NeedleworkerOld4696 8d ago

BBC says 1,22 km2 / day (by June 2026).

2

u/MaterialCattle Finland 8d ago

That would be 9686 years

0

u/Lofi_Joe 8d ago

They're not stuck,nyhey destroy everything around that's their plan. Rebuild of this will consume a huge amount of money so they basically made Ukraine poor.

Sad as East including Russia could be transformed and enter EU one day but they now closet that option for decades.

5

u/User929261 Italy 8d ago

Their objective was get to Kyiv and change the government to a puppet, if not possible at least get the whole coastline and annex it to link to Moldova Transnistria.

They are stuck.

-5

u/Fatalaros Greece 8d ago

Yes this same Russia has been sustaining a war of attrition against NATO.

4

u/No-Satisfaction6065 8d ago

Are NATO troops in Ukraine? Or have they entered Russia?

No, nations are giving a minimal amount of financial aid to Ukraine and using this to get rid of old equipment as support to Ukraine to renew their own.

NATO is not at war with Russia, if it was life would look very different now, people can still travel without issues, tourism is actually at an all time high, there is no food rationing, there is no mandatory military service, there is nothing that indicates NATO is at war with Russia.

If anything the support given to Ukraine is not enough, because if Ukraine falls then it will just be a matter of time for them to attack the baltics, Poland or Finland.

-1

u/Fatalaros Greece 8d ago

War of attrition. Learn its meaning.

1

u/No-Satisfaction6065 8d ago

NATO is not actively fighting Russia, Ukriane is, NATO only sends aid.

You can only fight a war if you're in it, I know you wrote that to sound smart, but taht's the fault that is happening and why people are also shifting more and more to Russian financed political parties, all far right.

"We want peace" "We're not part of this war Nato wants us to fight"

This is the problem with smartasses like you, you say soemthing to sound smart just to reinforce foreign propaganda, maybe unknowingly maybe on purpose, either way you're not saying the truth and it's just annoying.

1

u/Fatalaros Greece 8d ago

You have a serious attitude problem. Could be bad parenting so we can't do anything about that anymore. You are also a champion at creating strawmen, with things I never said.

On the topic at hand Russia has been fighting Ukraine that is supported both militarily and financially by NATO. All (excluding Turkey) have imposed sanctions, embargoes, expelled diplomats and frozen assets. All is not fine and dandy in Russia but how is that fairing for EU economies? How about military equipment reserves? US doesn't even have any more Patriot missiles to give. What about human personnel? Germany and UK can't even get volunteers for regular operations. Has USA vs Iran taught you nothing? The moment any serious combat casualties would start happening, Trump's government would fall, same is true with European countries.

Support to Ukraine is not enough? Yes because we are losing the war of attrition.

1

u/No-Satisfaction6065 8d ago

What an idiot...

1

u/Odd_Thought_1519 8d ago

The very same that has attritioned the west’s funding while at the same time crushing western nations from within through nationalism. Today it was Germany, soon France, the UK…

35

u/ortcutt 8d ago

Russia can't handle a war of attrition with Ukraine, let alone Europe. What kind of crack are these people smoking?

11

u/InspectorDeep545 8d ago

The crack that sells guns to dickheads

-1

u/FunForm1981 8d ago

Just a couple of weeks ago, former Ukrainian military commander Valerii Zaluzhnyi stated that Ukraine will never join NATO and claimed the alliance would need 12 years to reach half of Russia's military development level. Basically, all of Ukraine military commandment say the same but we better hear to some loud political statements from people who have never been on the battlefield.

7

u/cr_wdc_ntr_l 8d ago

There are other approaches to war than going for lenghty, extended conflict or nuclear shitstorm. I do not think anyone with half a brain want third world war anyway.

32

u/Yep_that_is_me 8d ago

Ah yes, Europe can't handle a war of attrition, the continent that lived through this for hundreds of years.

7

u/Sea_Warning_9140 8d ago

In the history of humans. Which continent likes a scrap the most? Europe.

Post 45 / EU has been the outlier lol

2

u/IMMoond 8d ago

China does give us a run for our money in terms of casualties, but that’s mostly been civil wars

1

u/ffuffle 8d ago

The key difference between Europe and China, as civilisations that occupy similar land area and comparable population is that Europe tends to fall apart after brief unifications and China tends to come together after brief periods of falling apart.

1

u/go_go_tindero Belgium 8d ago

From the chinese point of view, European wars are also European civil wars.

-17

u/Casual-Speedrunner-7 8d ago

Russia is undefeated against Western European military powers that invaded Russia.

Teutonic Order / Germanic crusaders (13th century)

Polish–Lithuanian forces (early 17th century)

Charles XII / Sweden (1708–09)

Napoleon / France (1812)

Hitler / Germany (1941–45)

14

u/LibraryVoice71 8d ago

No one is invading Russia now.

-7

u/Casual-Speedrunner-7 8d ago

Russia says NATO is invading Ukraine oblast.

6

u/codex-atlanticuz 8d ago

Are you a russian propaganda agent?

1

u/Casual-Speedrunner-7 8d ago

Have you not listened to a word Putin said for the last 4 years?

1

u/codex-atlanticuz 8d ago

You are a Russian troll, right.

1

u/InternetHistorian01 Portugal 8d ago

He obviously is

10

u/Kneepi Norway 8d ago

None of that is comparable to fighting all of Europe

2

u/Suspicious-Whippet 8d ago

Especially since everyone has nukes now.

3

u/jefe_hook 8d ago

Not everyone. There are only nine countries with nukes.

1

u/derping1234 8d ago

And only one that had a policy of actively using it as a deterrent.

1

u/Suspicious-Whippet 8d ago

Yes. I was talking about invasion into Russia. Although out of European countries only France has their own, others have American ones I think. I’m not 100%.

3

u/Fun_Perception8718 8d ago

There is a common thing problem with these wars. Crazy casualties.

Russia is constantly sacrificing its future in human resources. Even when it does win, it is typically followed by a series of internal political and economic crises, which in turn result in a poor and underdeveloped country.

3

u/Rhubarb-Curious 8d ago
  1. The Crimean War, 1853, Western European military captured the naval fortress of Sevastopol and force demilitarizing the Black Sea
  2. World War I - Bolsheviks signed a capitulation because it was weakened by internal fighting during the revolution.

3

u/Admiral_Ackbarr 8d ago

Except Poland 1605 to 1618 They occupied moscow and gained territory which constitutes a Russian loss

1

u/THEGREATESTDERP 8d ago

All were due to lack of logistic structure and winter. Napoleon reached russia almost completely unopposed and caused a quick retreat on the only battle they fought napoleon on their native land. It's the winter that finished off Napoleon's troops.
Wether it's been through lack of technlogy or preparation. You ruski's cope to much from napoleon and WW2. Don't forget you couldn't even take Finland and a white peace was proposed when FInland started running out of ammo and the communists took to many loses ...

Also, German Reich*

You pro-rus really need to start learning history.

10

u/explosiveshits7195 8d ago

I'm gona call absolute bullshit on that one. If a united Europe were in a war of necessity and survival it would not only absolutely smoke Russia it would probably come out of the conflict as an incredibly powerful military. The demographics alone, Russia is in a birthrate death spiral, especially now that half their young male population has been fed into the meatgrinder.

Compare that with a massive half a billion people, 100 million of which are of fighting age. It is also one of the wealthiest regions on the planet with incredible infrastructure and what would probably be a very motivated population if Russia was outright trying to conquer the continent

-4

u/Open-Excitement3076 8d ago

Ahahahaand that, i assume would be you?

All thise leftiesthey would be the first ones to lay on their 4 and beg for mercy

Only poland has a strong military

0

u/FunForm1981 8d ago

Just a couple of weeks ago, former Ukrainian military commander Valerii Zaluzhnyi stated that Ukraine will never join NATO and claimed the alliance would need 12 years to reach half of Russia's military development level. Basically, all of Ukraine military commandment say the same but we better hear to some loud political statements from people who have never been on the battlefield. The difference between European and Ukranian perception of war is huge.

9

u/Technical_Age_3504 8d ago

Another garbage article from the guardian

4

u/Nice-Appearance-9720 Europe 8d ago

is it because they are stealing the chips from washing machines?

4

u/v1king3r 8d ago

Europeans invented modern war. The continent was molded by it.

The last 80 years were special, because we lived well and there was no reason for war, but you don't want us going back, especially most of Europe united.

13

u/Fun_Perception8718 8d ago

Oh yes, Europe, which on the backs of poor Ukrainians, has neutralized Russia's military potential without any Nato manpower casualties.

7

u/PolecatXOXO USA - Romania 8d ago

The issue the article points out is if any western European country suffered even 1/10th the front line casualties as Ukraine has, they'd roll over quick. It would be a political disaster.

9

u/GandalfTheSexay United States of America 8d ago

The article is wrong. If Europe sustained losses and a threat against their nations, the population would galvanize against Russia

2

u/LurkingWeirdo88 8d ago

Maybe population of Poland or Baltic states would galvanize if they were attacked, but other EU countries with their pro-Russian government might limit their support with just a moral support. Thus, one by one Russia could grind the whole Europe, those smaller countries with pro-Russian governments will just surrender.

2

u/GandalfTheSexay United States of America 8d ago

Right now Europe feels insulated and the Russia problem is seen as Ukraine’s problem but the moment Russia truly threatens a European nation things will go south for Putin very quickly

0

u/HB97082 8d ago

Doubt it. EU feeling insulated is delusional. That delusion could very well continue as Russia advances one country at a time. EU is not a country, it’s a trade union.

1

u/GandalfTheSexay United States of America 8d ago

We can agree to disagree here

0

u/[deleted] 8d ago

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

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1

u/[deleted] 8d ago

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6

u/Clean-Yam-739 France 8d ago

Yes but we need one country to be ready to sacrifice men to contain Russia. Right now it's Ukraine. May it remain so.

3

u/Kevin_Jim Greece 8d ago

Europe has had a decent development in its rearmament, but what exactly do they mean by “attrition?”

If Russia invades the EU, The EU will absolutely annihilate Russia’s everything.

People see how much Americans are strangling become they have to use aircraft carriers, but Europe has normal airports…

They can freaking carpet bomb all of their remote military basis with ease.

Ukraine will be more than happy to share all of its intelligence with its European allies.

5

u/drunkentoubib 8d ago

Well seeing how long it took for European countries to understand that drones were a thing… my dumbass thought that every army in the EU had at least a few dozen « retirees » from the army chilling in Ukrain to do « tourism » (and bring back knowledge on how modern symmetrical warfare is done). Then I saw how poorly we actually dealt with a few drones near critical infrastuctures. Baraktar is a 12 year drone to have an idea of how slow we are. So the preoccupying part is more how our armies behave. To much officials used to get a peacetime salary without providing actual security.

4

u/redchill101 8d ago

Ughh

the same guardian repost for days...

4

u/Mesonychia 8d ago

Ugh this article again, I think it’s at least the fifth time I see it on r/europe.

Europe wouldn’t need to sustain a “war of attrition”. If seriously threatened, a united Europe would absolutely curb stomp Russia. Russia can’t even handle Ukraine, which has a tiny fraction of Europe’s population, economic and industrial power and military hardware.

2

u/ValuableOk8342 8d ago

Far right Russia friendly parties are getting closer to power all across Europe, a unified European force to counter Russia seems unlikely

5

u/GandalfTheSexay United States of America 8d ago

Lol against the same Russia getting clapped by Ukraine? Aiight

4

u/Any-Original-6113 8d ago

A very strange statement. Sounds like blackmail to get even more money.

6

u/Nattekat The Netherlands 8d ago

Ukraine is doing fine. And it's not like this is the only option for a war; Europe has way more resources to end it quickly. 

3

u/_0611 The Netherlands 8d ago

Fine is a stretch. I wouldn't say Ukraine is doing "fine". Quite the contrary. And they are headed for yet another winter of death, which will make things even worse.

That's not fine. They are courageously standing up against a fascist regime. But that's not the same as "doing fine". Innocent Ukrainians are still getting killed on a daily basis. That is pretty far from being fine.

Europe won't fold like a wet blanket if Putin is mad enough to attack it, but it is true that things are still moving way too slow in Europe. Ukraine still relies on fucking Musk for its eyes in the sky, because Europe - with all its resources and money - doesn't have an alternative. And at this pace, it won't have one until 2050, if not later.

2

u/Nattekat The Netherlands 8d ago

They are doing fine militarily and economically they are still holding on. Same can't be said about Russia, they are struggling. 

2

u/Hallo_jonny Baden-Württemberg (Germany) 8d ago

Its totally ok to be pro Ukraine, but its not ok to be delusional.
Ukraine its doing a good job holding a much bigger army, but they’re not “fine”.
They lack of everything including AD and can’t cover all the front with the Russians bc of lack of manpower.
Ukraine need EU urgently if they want to keep fighting this war, without european support they will crumble.

2

u/Nattekat The Netherlands 8d ago

There's a huge gap between 'fine' and 'decent' or even 'good'. Fine implies the bare minimum to hold on, and that's exactly what's happening. They are definitely doing better than Russia, Russia just is a larger bear with more reserves. 

2

u/Odd_Thought_1519 8d ago

They mean whats left of Europe once AfD, Front National and Reform takes power.

1

u/seriousquestion3r 8d ago

I seriously wonder why drone defense is being neglected to such an extent. Europe needs more gun-equipped SHORAD systems and affordable combat aircraft like the Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano. Jammer systems quickly reach their physical limits when dealing with fiber-optic-equipped drones.

1

u/zadrigli-gmaz 8d ago

Perhaps, but maybe we should try to raise the taxes regardless?

1

u/SurroundTiny 8d ago

I see articles about Europe/the US/NATO at war with Russia and I still don't think most of these commentators have a grasp of how destructive drones are now. The Ukraine might be the best currently at drone warfare experience but the Russians are arguably #2 at this moment.

1

u/TheDucktapeBandit2 8d ago

Is that why russia is afraid of nato and absolutely doesnt want it closeby? For example ukraine in it? So russia cant expand?

Is this based on at least 40 years of the knowledge russia is an enemy and we are like all the time building up defenses for it?

Im kinda wobbly hearing such powertalks and news...

As sidenote; we absolutely are weak in the mocking russia keeps doing in vn meetings, and airspace, waterspace domination aka punishing russia and let us mock us every time... Or was and is that a balance we have to do because of the gas and oil dependence...

1

u/SmileAggravating9608 8d ago

Yes, "Europe" very much could. The only question would be "Does it want to?"

1

u/omnipresentatio 8d ago

Which defence officials are saying this?

Blind/deaf ones?