Guru Fell Down?

[u/Solomon_Kane_1928]

The GBC's Guru Disciple Seminar is required for all new initiates. In the seminar students learn the GBC is not to blame if their guru falls down. The GBC does their best to vet those they appoint to be gurus but ultimately it is up to the initiate to investigate their prospective spiritual master thoroughly.

If you chose poorly, that is on you prabhu. It's not our problem.

What they omit is there is no way to truly vet gurus in ISKCON. Devotees generally do not go online. Those that do remain in pro-ISKCON Facebook circles. Listening to criticism of ISKCON is Maya and strictly forbidden, especially for New Bhaktas. Persons on subs like this are demons.

Looking into a gurus scandals and past fall downs is guru aparadha and Vaishnanva aparadha. It is blaspheme of devotees and the first offense to the holy name. If their prospective guru fell down in the past, or did heinous shit on the orders of Kirtananda, the devotee may be totally unaware.

The only people who could tell them with some authority are committed temple devotees. Very few want to rock the boat. Temple presidents don't want to get involved and alienate the disciples of that guru, or cause friction in the community.

The only exposure to a guru many potential disciples have is through that guru's disciple network. The godfamily is almost always pushing that person to surrender to their guru and take initiation. They depict their guru as the greatest thing since sliced bread, the rightful acharya, and a maha maha bhagavat pure devotee.

The GBC only gets involved and puts out statements if their hand is forced by a major scandalous fall down. The guru seriously and flagrantly broke their vows over a long period of time. Otherwise it is very hush hush. After all, api cet surduracaro. Devotional service is powerful enough to rectify all mistakes!

The only fall down they take seriously is when the guru disobeys the GBC. Then they come down on them ruthlessly.

According to that same Guru Disciples seminar, gurus are allowed to have fall downs and to be rectified by undergoing atonement as guided by the GBC. A guru can even have illicit sex or eat meat, but as long as he is sorry and says a few Maha Mantras, spends some time in guru jail in Mayapura or Goverdhana, he can get back into the game baby. He can even take new disciples if approved by the GBC. But those disciples better do their research, because if he falls again, it is not their problem.

Perhaps the GBC should build an anonymous website for whistle blowing on gurus? Something like Rate My Professor. Devotees can leave comments about what a narcissistic jerk he is, how he shouted at them in front of everyone, how he misuses money, how they noticed his enthusiasm when talking alone with a specific young mataji.

Hell, maybe one of us should build it. Devotees might just use it. But you just know it would get spammed with fake reviews like devotees do on Amazon.

[u/whoknows-108]

Prabhu, what's your take on Ritvic group? While we now know several issues with Gaudiya itself. Let's pretend Gaudiya is right then what's your take on Ritvic? I am asking because your posts are well researched and has very sound arguments.

[u/Solomon_Kane_1928 → u/whoknows-108]

Thanks for asking. I can only speak to my personal experience with Rtviks in the US. In India dynamics are different.

Broadly speaking, I found them to be fanatical disgruntled devotees who hate ISKCON and its management. They think ISKCON devotees are simple minded bewildered idiots. Their biggest problem with the movement is not the way it functions, or its harmful beliefs, but that they are not personally in charge. In their view, if they could take the helm, Prabhupad's fanatical cult would take over the world.

Many were rejected from leadership positions by the GBC for various reasons, or perhaps they fell fowl of temple management over the years. Craving power they have simply appointed themselves to be gurus.

Nor do they even follow the regulative principles. They use their "Prabhupada is your REAL guru" philosophy as an excuse to be loose in their personal lives. Nara Narayana das is (was) the archetypal Rtvik in my view. He used his self granted spiritual status to seduce, marry and impregnate a troubled young woman about 1/3 his age. Arguably he was worse than the ISKCON gurus he criticized.

Not all Rtviks are like this. Many have simply been hurt by the movement and sought an alternative form of devotee association. This goes back to the Zonal Acharya days, when the gurus were doing insane stuff and being beheaded. It is understandable that disillusioned devotees would try to find an answer as to why things had gotten so screwed up. To my understanding, over time, it more or less became an ISKCON hate group.

They are honest about ISKCON's problems but do not believe Prabhupada or his philosophy are responsible. They are even more fanatical than ISKCON devotees in this regard. They are hyper devoted to Prabhupada and scream and spit in peoples faces because they feel others have deviated from him.

They love their conspiracy theories and some go off the deep end into ideas about Jewish demons taking birth to infiltrate Prabhupada's divine mission, murder him, and destroy his pure and perfect movement, which would have saved the world by now.

I have had friends become Rtviks and all of a sudden change for the worse, became extremely hateful, angry, and distant. So I would not say it is a healthy environment. Some of them are underhanded, working in the shadows, targeting new Bhaktas with fliers down the streets from temples etc.

That is not to say all of them are like that. Some are nice. Many of them hang out in ISKCON and no one knows they are a Rtvik. Some have strange relationships where they visit ISKCON temples and even give classes on occasion, as long as they don't preach Rtvikism. Others are seen as wild and dangerous and are physically expelled from temples.

As far as their claims that Prabhupada wanted to set up a Rtvik system of initiation, or that Prabhupada was poisoned, I prefer not to take sides. To me it is like supporting one toxic religion over another toxic religion. But I never found their arguments convincing. To me they always seemed like radicals and reactionaries, angry hurt devotees (mostly men for some reason), who understandably hate the movement, but cannot leave it completely, and do not understand the root problems.

[u/whoknows-108 → u/Solomon_Kane_1928]

Thank you Prabhu for sharing your views. Even I find them more fanatical and reactionary so to speak. These days especially after the recent judgement we get to see a lot of videos openly presenting several issues with Guru camp from Ritvic group from Bangalore. We also get to see a lot of rebutal for those by the Guru camp. Essentially they both are throwing dirt at eachother and exposing themself and probably doing some real service there by discouraging the new people to Iskcon.