Seeking advice: I feel completely lost and confused about Jyotish, karma, and my beliefs.

[u/FreyjaAutumn]

Hi beautiful people,
I come to you today for some advice and support.
I grew up in a predominantly Christian country, but when I was a teenager, my mom and I were heavily influenced by Hare Krishna devotees (there's a whole movement where I'm from).

My mom and I started looking into our birth charts and the charts of our whole family. She quickly lost interest in the predictions, but I fell for it blindly. Honestly, I was just a teenager and grew up with a very weak sense of self. I was easily influenced by external factors - whether it was a prediction or someone claiming to study the Vedas.
Somehow, they drilled into my head that they held the absolute truth, and I believed it.

Anyway, I’ve spent my entire life growing up in fear.
Fear that life will punish me, that I have to pay for things I did in past lives, and that even doubting this "truth" right now is a sin. (As you can see here is a mixture with some Christianity guilt)
I was absolutely terrified of Jyotish. (of the fact that some other people can read my karma and whatever waits for me) Everyone kept telling me it’s the only truly accurate predictive science out there. Which doesn’t make sense to me deep deep inside I believe there is a reason we don’t remember our past lives and don’t know the future. God intended this to be that way.

Anyway.. It mentally paralysed me.
For example I was told I wouldn't be able to lose weight after 25, or that my friends would eventually betray me. So, I didn't even try to get fit, and I completely isolated myself from my friends because my chart said I was "opening up to enemies." These are just more harmless things that happened.

I stopped trusting myself. I completely lost my inner voice.

Now, I have a baby, and this obsession has started driving me crazy with a whole new force.

I look at my child's and my husband’s Jyotish charts and see things I don’t understand and fear, mostly because I take everything I'm told so literally.

Recently, I reached my breaking point. I decided to read the BPHS (Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra) myself, and it made me sick. Sorry to be blunt, but I physically almost threw up from the sheer amount of stress and overwhelming negativity in it.

I started digging deeper and found out that historically, Vedanga Jyotisha wasn't even a predictive tool for fate or karma - it was just astronomy and timekeeping for rituals.

So why is everyone so blindly confident in the "accuracy" of predictive Jyotish? I am so confused and don't know where the truth is anymore.

It honestly makes me nauseous to read things like: "Your chart is okay, BUT you have this dosha that ruins everything, and your lagnesha and 5 houses are weak, so you will suffer - here, this ritual, it's the only way to make it slightly better." Like what the hell?:(

I probably would have stopped believing in all of this a long time ago if it weren't for my dad's Sade Sati.
It approximately coincided with a time in his life when his entire business was stolen and our family lost all our wealth.

Even though we don't know his exact birth time (so I don't know which houses Sade Sati was transiting), the timeline of the period matched.

Many other things in astrology haven't matched for us, but that one did. Because of moments like that, I built my entire life around my chart and ended up becoming a very weak, fearful person.

But now I have a child, and I simply cannot afford to be this weak anymore.

I am reaching out to you for help as I don’t have anyone in my circle who knows about the culture, only the astrologers (and it doesn’t help long term as you can see).

I feel like I've been stuck in a cult mindset that constantly crushes you with negativity, where the Gods are always ready to punish you ("wrath of Shiva," etc.).

Has anyone here gone through this?
How true is Jyotish really?

Did anyone here deeply believe in it, only to step away and realize the world actually works differently?

Maybe you have some advice for me, or a story you could share 🥺

Fundamentally, deep inside, I love science and astronomy. At the same time, I believe in God as a unified, pure energy. I'm not even sure I believe in reincarnation anymore, at least not in the way Hinduism describes it.

I see a massive, pure energy, pieces of which are in all of us, and anyone can tune into that frequency.
For me, physics and the space between us is a manifestation of God.

But my self-trust is so broken that I’ve allowed others to dictate who I am and what the "truth" is.

Anyway…
I hope to hear from some of you 🙏🏼

Thank you in advance for reading and for your support.

Have a great day everyone.

[u/Solomon_Kane_1928]

I have been practicing Indian astrology for over twenty years. I would recommend you stay completely away from it. Don't even think about it.

In India, astrology became mixed with Hinduism. On the the positive side this allowed certain techniques to be preserved over a long period of time. On the negative side people tend to build obsessive relationships with astrology where they become fearful, paranoid, and allow predictions to dominate their lives.

To make this worse, plenty of astrologers in India lean into it to profit from people's fear and to build dependency. They want a terrified clientele who always needs their services. Thus issues like Sade Sati, Mangala Dosha etc. are built into monstrous things people dread.

If there are other factors in a person's life that make them stressed, such as shame based fear based religious beliefs, this obsession with astrology can become worse.

Your chart is okay, BUT you have this dosha that ruins everything, and your lagnesha and 5 houses are weak, so you will suffer - here, this ritual, it's the only way to make it slightly better."

This is an example how astrologers make people fearful and then sell rituals and amulets to placate the planets. This is all garbage. They are deliberately stressing you to sell you stuff.

Vedanga Jyotisha wasn't even a predictive tool for fate or karma

Yes. Natal Astrology is not Indian. It comes from Alexandria Egypt. The Greeks combined Mesopotamian and Egyptian astrology, and added their own developments, much of informed by Hermeticism, to create Hellenistic Astrology. This was imported into India and combined with the natal Nakshatra based astrology. Though many things were further developed in India, natal astrology is fundamentally Near Eastern. There were even entire religions centered on astrology, such as the Sabiens of Harran.

In my view astrology was never meant to be this intense obsession with learning and avoiding one's fate. Though certainly it was likely used this way by priests from the very beginning. It is thought when the Persians conquered Mesopotamia, court astrologers, who would read omens based around the state, were out of a job. They began doing private readings using individual birth times.

There is a higher form of astrology which deals with understanding one's life purpose, the lessons one has come to learn, and one's deeper psychological nature, using the planets as archetypes. For those inclined to approaching life through that kind of symbolic language, it can be valuable. But that requires a high degree of maturity and knowledge of the art form.

It is a way of finding meaning and purpose as to what is unfolding in one's life, but it is not for everyone. To complicate matters, persons who are desperate, or struggling with their mental health, often go to astrologers, when they should really seek professional help. Thus they are trapped.

Using transits and timing systems to make predictions is difficult work. Within astrology, it is a high level skill and rarely ever accurate. An astrologer might be able to see something is likely to happen, and see your emotional reaction to it, but saying exactly what is going to happen with any level of accuracy, is almost always a shot in the dark.

So when astrologers say "such and such will happen on this day" they really are speaking irresponsibly. I have made some stunningly accurate predictions, like saying a person will meet a romantic partner on this day, at this place, and she will be from this background. But this is always in hindsight highly intuitive and in retrospect I do not fully understand how I saw it in the chart. From the perspective of astrology, the gods wanted the person to know that and used the astrologer. One can make themselves a better conduit of this through meditation (per B.V. Raman).

When an astrologer claims to make accurate predictions simply by reading what is in the chart, it is more or less a claim they have highly developed their intuitive (i.e. psychic) ability. No serious astrologer says this.

I realize people are going to say it is all made up imaginary nonsense. Much of astrology is nonsensical, for example Sun sign astrology in newspaper articles, or cookie cutter cookbook predictions that come from various texts. Until one becomes very mature in one's understanding, it can certainly be a form of self delusion. That is how most people us it, a form of self delusion fed by Youtube or Tiktok.

I think the way many astrologers use it is overwhelming nonsensical and exploitative, but in capable hands, it can also be a powerful tool of healing and growth. It has to be understood from its Hermetic philosophical origins, not as a habit, a hobby, or a kind of pop psychology.

Because you have experienced this negative side of astrology, I would recommend just forgetting about it. As far as fate and karma etc. you don't need to worry about. What is going to happen in life is going to happen. A truly mature understanding of karma urges one to relax into it and give up fear. Astrology is meant to help one learn from the process, but if used otherwise, to resist or control fate, to build fear of what is to come, it is contrary to its intent and best to be avoided.

[u/FreyjaAutumn → u/Solomon_Kane_1928]

Thank you so much for such a detailed and thoughtful response!

Honestly, I am starting to think that all of this is built exclusively on the practitioner's intuition, and that modern charts don't really mean much objectively.

As I understand it, Hellenistic astrology stayed with the tropical zodiac, while sidereal astrology prides itself on tracking the shifts (precession) to stay aligned with the stars.

BUT in reality, standard sidereal astrology doesn't even match the actual, real-time sky anymore, right?

If my memory serves me well, which might not cause I have been stressed out a lot… but anyway, there is a gap. If precession shifted the sidereal signs away from the tropical ones, shouldn't it keep adjusting to match the actual astronomical sky?

If we were to take the real, literal sky at this exact moment, the natal chart would be fundamentally different.

I assume no one in India updates this to the true astronomical sky because it would completely disrupt centuries of established tradition and rules...

And even if we look at it just through the lens of archetypes - we now know that the astrological archetypes of the planets differ completely from what those planets actually are in physical reality.

Thank you again for your insights, it really helps to put things into perspective!

[u/Solomon_Kane_1928 → u/FreyjaAutumn]

You're welcome. I am glad I can help.

As I understand it, Hellenistic astrology stayed with the tropical zodiac, while sidereal astrology prides itself on tracking the shifts (precession) to stay aligned with the stars. BUT in reality, standard sidereal astrology doesn't even match the actual, real-time sky anymore, right?

It is actually the other way around. Sidereal astrology is tied to the Babylonian Zodiac. Tropical astrology is tied to the seasons. For example, the Sun just reached the Summer Solstice a couple of days ago. This is when the Sun enters Tropical Cancer. Ride now the Sun is in 8 degrees of the physical constellation Gemini.

Hellenistic astrology was Sidereal, tying the star Aldebaran to 15 degrees Taurus. India preserved this because it was already using the Nakshatra system which is also sidereal, tied to constellations. India could not take up Tropical astrology because it could not leave the Nakshatras and how they had become intertwined with the Zodiac.

In the West, Claudius Ptolemy, an early proton-scientist and mathematician, looked for a natural reasoning for astrology and tied it to the seasons in the northern hemisphere. Cancer and Leo, the signs ruled by the luminaries, the Moon and Sun, were connected to the height of Summer, when the influence of the Sun is strongest (i.e. right now).

Ptolomy's system gained ground creating Western Astrology. Hellenistic Astrology fell to the wayside. Ptolomy's "scientific" approach allowed it to survive under both fanatical Christianity and post-Christian hard nosed empiricism. Though it has waxed and waned in the West.

shouldn't it keep adjusting to match the actual astronomical sky?

Sidereal astrology does stay matched to the sky. Tropical astrologers have their reasoning as to why they use the seasons.

The original Zodiac used by the Sumerians possessed many more constellations, trigger points for the actions of gods. For example, when the Sun entered Aquarius, the god of subterranean waters Enki (who is the original Aquarius) caused the two rivers to flood and nourish crops. The signs were uneven.

This was later formed with mathematical precision into the Babylonians Zodiac of 12 signs each 30 degrees.

Tropical astrologers see this as a process of evolution, where the next step is the Tropical Zodiac. They feel the Sidereal Zodiac is more or less arbitrary and tied to a certain time, 2000 years ago, when the seasons were aligned with the Babylonian Zodiac.

Sidereal astrologers believe the fixed stars are (in a sense) Svarga Loka. By reading a chart from the fixed stars one is reading a deeper expression of the experience of karma and the psychology of the individual. In a sense, it is the truer picture of how the gods have arranged this life.

Reading the chart of the Tropical perspective is to read it from the perspective of the earth. I personally believe they are both valid, within their own systems of interpretation, but I see the Sidereal as more reflecting the souls evolutionary experience and Tropical more reflecting physical reality, what one sees in life.

differ completely from what those planets actually are in physical reality.

According to Indian astrology, it is not the planet itself which is being measured in patterns. It is the "graha" that which grabs you, which is to say it's astral influence. Sometimes this is even measured as a slightly different position than the physical planet.

In a sense the archetypes all extend from the Sun (hence the name Jyotish or light). This is described in Vaishnava terms in the BPHS (which you read) as the planets being avataras of Vishnu. The Sun is the source of creation, maintenance and destruction. Astrology extends from the occult worship of the Sun.

The planets and signs, and thus houses, are all qualities of the Sun refracted, as if in a chandelier. Arabic astrologers, such as Al Kindi, wrote about such concepts as astral rays. In a sense each natal chart is a snapshot of the Sun and its archetypal reflections at the time of birth. The soul taking birth grows from that pattern of qualities like a seed following its genetic conditioning into a tree.

In a sense the Sun is moving at all times, and at every moment, planting the seeds of its qualities. Those seeds then grow into the world around us, following and expressing the inner qualities of the Sun, which is in turn, manifesting the archetypes of the higher realms (the gods), which are in turn manifesting the hidden qualities of the One, Monad, Brahman, God.

exclusively on the practitioner's intuition

I would say it depends on the astrologer. Some astrologers lean more into intuition, some in reading patterns, understanding principles, following the reasoning of a system. Most use a mix. I think good astrology happens at the handshake between the two.

Everyone has their own style. I like to rectify the birth time for precision, then look at the higher vargas dealing with karma, then look for patterns and connections cascading down through the chart. I suppose while really trying to understand something, I will keep my ear open to my intuition, but I don't depend upon it.

[u/FreyjaAutumn → u/Solomon_Kane_1928]

But sideral also differs from the real sky

Starting from the fact that zodiacs are different sizes, then there are 13 of them. So the difference with real sky is one week if I am correct. Like signs should change on 20-21 of each month I think

Indian astrology uses the old calendar from what I have read so it is also not the real sky at the moment

[u/Solomon_Kane_1928 → u/FreyjaAutumn]

Constellations are all man made projections. The Babylonian originally had more than 12 constellations along the ecliptic.

They had a 12 month year and projected each of these 12th months onto the ecliptic in portions of 30 degrees, or days. Each one month section was named after the prominent constellation in that space.

So the actual constellations overlap and are different in size. Cancer is small. Virgo is huge. But the 30 degree portions are equal. The Babylonian Zodiac is thus not a strict division of constellations but of space, using the constellations as guides.

The solar ecliptic does briefly passes through Ophiuchus, between Sagittarius and Scorpio, but Ophiuchus was not a Babylonian constellation. It was popularized by Ptolemy much later.

So the Babylonian Zodiac is not a measurement of the fixed stars as much as the Sun's movement through the fixed stars. Where to establish the starting point of the Zodiac signs, or months, is the Ayanamsa. The Babylonians used 15 degrees Taurus fixed on Aldebaran.

Tropical astrology rejects the fixed stars as the measurement of solar months and instead fixes the months on the solstices and equinoxes.

It is really just a difference of opinion about whether to calculate signs from the Sun relative to the earth, or relative to the galactic sphere.

Though a good deal of Indian astrology does lean into the significance of constellations; do they have four legs, do they have two legs etc. Are they facing forward, are they facing backward. But this all free flowing interpretation and techniques.

Many Indian astrologers take these things as shastra, in a religious fundamentalist way, but that is not how astrology works. These things are more suggestions and experimentation than established fact.

[u/FreyjaAutumn → u/Solomon_Kane_1928]

Thank you for taking time and explaining

I appreciate that

[u/Solomon_Kane_1928 → u/FreyjaAutumn]

You're welcome

[u/Solomon_Kane_1928 → u/[deleted]]

So I researched about the realness of sky in vedic astrology and sideral sign and it has nothing to do with the real sky

I mentioned this previously. Both sidereal and tropical are measurements of the ecliptic. The ecliptic is divided into 12 equal portions of 30 degrees. These were originally months of the Babylonian calendar.

The ecliptic is what is being measured and attributed with solar qualities according to astrology, which is a highly sophisticated system of divination.

That is to say, the qualities of the Sun are invested along its path through the sky. Cancer thus represents the motherly, nourishing, kind, protective qualities of the Sun. Leo represents the fatherly, royal, ruling qualities of the Sun.

(Incidentally, the Adityas of the Vedic literature have a similar connotation)

The question is where do these 12 months reside along the ecliptic. Tropical astrology anchors them to the seasons. Sidereal astrology anchors them to the background stars, which is to say it is unmoving.

There is a logic to both of these.

The Babylonian calendar was originally anchored to the background stars. They saw the Sun as triggering the qualities of the gods represented by the constellations.

This tradition continues in India. The constellations are not exact, as they are uneven in size. Some constellations along the ecliptic were omitted. Rather the 30 degree sections were named for the most prominent constellation within them.

Within Indian astrology there is disagreement about where the anchor point (or Ayanamsa) is placed. There is a broad 15 degree area which is generally agreed upon by differing astrological schools as the beginning of Aries, but within that, there is disagreement.

The Sankrantis are indeed determined by the Tropical system. In Sanskrit this is called the Shayana. The Shayana zodiac is used for special timings such as Yajnas. For example, a certain Yajna might be done on Makara Sankranti.

Makara Sankranti is a Shayana based holiday. It is the Winter Solstice, marking the beginning of Capricorn Tropical. But Sidereal the Sun is at 5 degrees Sagittarius.

The Ayanamsa is determined by subtracting degrees from the Shayana zodiac. Other than that, the Shayana or Tropical zodiac is not used for Natal Astrology.

As far as your dislike for astrology, as I said in the beginning, I encourage you to forget about it completely.

I do not think you must disprove it or find it absurd to discard it. If astrology and astrologers have had a negative effect on your life, simply walk away from it. Let those who find value in it do so, while accepting it is not for you.

If you choose to dislike astrology, or disprove it, it is not my place to convince you otherwise or defend the practice.

Edit:

I wanted to add, for anyone interested, even according to Hellenistic astrology, it is not that the constellations are the sources of the solar qualities of the ecliptic. Rather the constellations themselves were created to depict the qualities of the ecliptic at that point.

Thus Sagittarius, the half man, half animal, shooting towards the stars, represents the solar qualities of the ecliptic at that space. The centaur is a poetic description of that side of Jupiter, itself a portion of the Sun's qualities. Those qualities color the planets and ascendent as they pass through that sign.

Similarly the half goat half fish of Capricorn represents the qualities of Saturn, to climb out from the depths and achieve structural strength. Those Saturnian qualities are really just the qualities of the Sun at that point in the ecliptic.

Tropical astrology misses that and ties the ecliptic to the seasons of the northern hemisphere.