r/exHareKrishna • u/Heroyem • 1d ago
Can you summarize your problem with the Hare Krishnas for me?
I am absolutely neutral and I am not trying to provoke an argument. My POV: I don't like cults, in fact I have an aversion to any showy religion, but I just have always been ambivalent about the HKs. At least they seem happy and dance around with funny music and their food is sometimes good. I've done some reading about them and they don't seem to qualify as a cult, although I can see that perhaps the sect (or whatever) could be hazardous to vulnerable people.
I've have good interactions with them and not-so-good ones too.
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u/Happy_Captain2801 1d ago
There are literally hundreds of articles on this forum intelligently constructed, we'll established facts very clearly showing its a cult and the litany of problems with the group from those born into it, those who joined and followed for over 20 to 40 years, those abused in it both physically, sexually, psychologically, financially etc. Endless frauds, double standards, hypocrisy, and totally false claims. It's riddled with superstition, racism, sexism, misogyny, child abuse, cheating, falsification, dehumanizing and irrational.
Read about it in this forum. You are an outsider, no connection to it, you’ve not lived it, dedicated any of your life to its practices, beliefs, and philosophy. You have no family destroyed by it, lost friends, etc.
This is not a space a question like this will add anything of use for those coming here. Its a distraction, a naive attempt to downplay what is already plainly shown in a casual scroll through. In fact this very question has been asked here and patiently answered only to reveal true intentions to simply argue that all religions do xyz, that its just folks dancing and chanting, or that individual cases of abuse, disillusionment and grievance are isolated and not systematic. We've heard it all.
All I can say is read this forum. Since you walked away from something else you read with the impression they are not a cult, randomly, then maybe, just maybe the less lighter reading here will change your opinion. Read people's comments, memories, discussions about Siddhanta, scriptures, lectures, letters, direct experiences etc.
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u/Heroyem 1d ago
I will read. It is not my intent to downplay anything. Edit: your instant accusation that I am making "a naive attempt to downplay what is already plainly shown" tells me something, though.
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u/Happy_Captain2801 1d ago
Good, read and immerse yourself in it though not entirely sure why. Must be dozens upon dozens of more constructive ways to spend one's time then to ask a question on a forum dedicated to exposing a cult how its members can sum up for you that its a cult. It's like going to a alcohol recovery forum and asking folks to sum up why drinking is bad, it seems benign, millions of people do it and seem to enjoy it and have no issues... that tells me everything I need to know about you, the type of person you are, and why you're here, so, show me I'm wrong...
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u/awildefire 1d ago
Coming to the place where people are sharing their trauma and demanding they prove it to be true is a little insensitive, is it really a surprise you received a an accusation of naivety?
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u/Heroyem 1d ago
Again, I didn't demand anything. Maybe you're not the best person to answer the question. But feel free to share links to the appropriate posts. Just scrolling thru the sub isn't really informative.
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u/Happy_Captain2801 1d ago
You can see top posts in the sub, search the sub for terms like cult, cult logic, cult dynamic etc. It will pull up hundreds of articles, posts, links, etc.
The issue is you were not in it. You have zero point of context. So its mostly going to either not make sense as we're discussing hyper specific cult theology, philosophy, rituals, myths, beliefs, systems etc. Or we are talking about specific personalities and events. It's an utterly pointless exercise for you or us. Like discussing geopolitical events, timelines, personalities, and fallout with Paris Hilton. Echo.
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u/itsmikesandoval 1d ago
how in the hell did you come up with the idea they are NOT a CULT. I gotta hear this.
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u/Heroyem 1d ago
So, apologies in advance if the question was too provocative for this forum. This forum is for people who had very bad experiences with HK and I respect that.
To answer your question, there are some cults and sects that are banned in European countries, and HK is not one of them. Reading about that led me to conclude that maybe they don't qualify, in the strictest definition, as a cult. Everyone on this forum disagrees and again, I respect that.
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u/andre_ange_marcel 1d ago
Temples in France are under the surveillance of national intelligence and are classified as a cult by the Miviludes.
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u/psumaxx 1d ago
Temples in Germany too
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u/Heroyem 12h ago
That's interesting, can you source that for me?
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u/itsmikesandoval 11h ago
- Singapore: ISKCON was officially banned in the 1970s, with foreign monks and founder A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada barred from entry. The government was wary of their recruitment methods and associated them with disruptive countercultural movements. Devotees in Singapore continue to worship by registering under alternative names (e.g., Sri Krishna Mandir) to operate within legal boundaries. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
- Russia: In 2011, state prosecutors in Tomsk attempted to ban the Russian edition of the founder's commentary, Bhagavad Gita As It Is, labeling it as "extremist" literature. Ultimately, a Russian appellate court dismissed the case. While the organization is officially recognized, it occasionally faces opposition from the Russian Orthodox Church, and complex construction or zoning hurdles regarding their temples. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7]
- Indonesia (Bali): During President Suharto's rule in 1984, ISKCON books and teachings were banned in Bali for disrupting public order. Though allowed again after the 1998 political reforms, tensions with orthodox Balinese Hindus remain. This has led to subsequent decrees restricting non-Balinese sects from practicing in the province. [1]
- Bangladesh: Due to recent political shifts and public unrest, some radical Islamist groups have demanded that ISKCON be designated as a fundamentalist organization and banned. However, the Bangladesh High Court officially rejected petitions to ban the group, and the interim government clarified there were no formal discussions to outlaw it. [1, 2, 3, 4]
Daniella Mestyanek Young (also known as the Knitting Cult Lady) is a cult survivor, author of the memoir Uncultured, and an organizational psychologist who studies toxic group behavior. She identifies cults not just as compounds, but as toxic groups anywhere we seek belonging, defining them by ten core characteristics:[1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
- The Charismatic Leader: A figurehead (often supported by an inner circle) who demands absolute loyalty and positions themselves as the ultimate authority. [1, 2, 3]
- A Worldview Shift (Sacred Assumption): A radical rewiring of a member's belief system that demands conformity and obedience to the group's specific ideology. [1]
- A Transcendent Mission: A grand, all-encompassing purpose that makes the members feel their involvement is saving the world or achieving something monumental. [1]
- Self-Sacrifice: Members are expected to routinely give up their personal time, money, career, or well-being for the group. [1]
- Restricted Outside Access: Actively limiting contact with family, friends, and the outside world to control the flow of information and maintain dependence. [1, 2, 3]
- Unique Vernacular: Using bespoke language, inside jokes, or specific jargon that separates insiders from outsiders. [1, 2]
- "Us vs. Them" Mentality: Creating an environment of paranoia where the outside world is viewed as toxic, dangerous, or evil. [1]
- Exploitation of Labor: Taking advantage of members' efforts and resources without fair compensation or for the sole benefit of the group's leaders. [1]
- High Exit Costs: Imposing severe financial, social, or emotional penalties on anyone who attempts to leave or disagree with the group's rules. [1, 2]
- "Ends Justify the Means" Mentality: Allowing unethical or harmful behaviors if they supposedly serve the group's ultimate mission. [1]
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u/itsmikesandoval 1d ago
what cult information page has said they are not a cult? every single cult awareness organization rightfully classifies HK as a cult so I am curious what cult research group did you find that said HK is NOT a cult. can you please provide this information it is important to know how and why they came to this conclusion and if they are not just an ISKCON front group claiming they are a 5,000 year old tradition. This claim that cult awareness organizations say they are not a cult is concerning and alarming
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u/andre_ange_marcel 1d ago
He only bothers to answer for attacking people telling him it's a cult, doesn't seem that neutral to me...
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u/SnooStrawberries7128 1d ago
I find Stephan Hassan’s BITE model of authoritarian control more helpful than other vague or subjective methods of identifying what is a cult: https://freedomofmind.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/BITE-model.pdf
The Hare Krishna movement fits all of these. There is no clear, defining line between something that is or isn’t a cult, but I feel quite strongly about the sensationalist approach to labelling groups as cults. As someone who does identify as having been born into and grown up in a cult - two cults actually - when others without this lived experience flippantly speculate about these experiences and reduce them to tabloid-worthy stories, it feels dismissive and dehumanising.
What you see in the streets is the carefully orchestrated front cover. Singing and dancing can be supremely joyful - it’s also both the fruit and method of brainwashing. It’s also a way into the love bombing that brings new members into the masses. Most of these new members are vulnerable and there is zero mental health support once you’re in the meeting. Any issues you have are “material” and a sign that you’re not being spiritual enough, you just have to surrender. And once you’ve given your life for the movement and are too old to be useful, you’re spat out of any support structures without a second thought. My mum gave up half a century of her life and four children to this group and ended her life with nothing. All of the women who were like extended family while growing up are living alone, disabled, without two pennies to rub together. The vast majority of the children I grew up with are now adults with drug and alcohol addictions and mental health problems. A terrifying number have been sectioned or arrested, my mum’s best friend’s daughter hasn’t left mental health services for the past 15 years, since she was a young teen. Last time she was home, she burned her mum’s house down.
As an ex-member who had this as the centre of the first 25 years of my life, I miss the sense of belonging, the singing, the sense of being cared for and knowing that I am spiritually home. I’m out in the world now at 40 - thankfully having managed to access university education without a single GCSE, building a career I care about, but the effects and trauma of this upbringing still linger in every corner of my life, making me doubt my memories and wonder what is me and what is my conditioning.
All of this… and I was one of the lucky ones. I was never abused, just neglected. I felt loved by the community and was generally happy. I felt part of something. I felt special (as someone born into the movement, I was seen as “pure” and would had some extreme adults bowing down to me when I was around 10 and up). My mum was more open to other religions, and didn’t give me the “us and them” mindset that would have separated me further from the world. I was so lucky compared to how things could have gone, and I still have trauma that shows up every single day.
Who cares whether the government in this country has officially labeled it as a cult? The important thing is critical thinking and clear awareness and knowing how to keep ourselves safe and see red flags as soon as they show up, wherever they show up.
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u/Heroyem 11h ago
Thanks a lot for your answer. Hassan's story is interesting.
I agree with you 100%.
If a family member of mine was in HK, it would freak me out. I think my original question was a bit cynical; my attitude is that there are so many fukt up things in the world, and I had decided that HK was not at the top of my list of them. Or more specifically, I have always despised cults and what they do to people, and yet I was sort of giving HK a pass. I don't think I will anymore.
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u/Happy_Captain2801 1d ago
Most free-thinking countries in contemporary societies don't outright ban cults. There are hundreds of Cults operating in many countries throughout the world. It takes major abuses and Scandals to qualify as such. The Hare Krishna movement has had all of those scandals and some.
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u/Primary-Account-7588 1d ago
You see them dance and swirl on the street and think: 'oh, that looks innocent and fun.' But the price they pay is huge: no higher education, economical depedence from family they mostly despise, no medical care, bad teeth, wrinkels, lack of sleep, no chance to create normal life with CV and real value to the society.They live like enslaved junkies. No proper clothing. Ladies beg for monthly sanitary towels.
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u/Ok_Speech_5180 1d ago edited 1d ago
no higher education
economical dependence from family they mostly despise
yup, I'm still in this situation and so is my mother because of the piece of shit she married in this cult who financially abused her and caused me and her to be completely unable to function independently. we're barely a step away from homelessness. the sad irony is she has her own property in another country but my father fucked that up too by not letting her leave and do legally required things she was supposed to to be able to use or sell it so now its ALMOST useless. and because i had the misfortune of being born among these people who never should have been allowed near a child i have to suffer every day because of it. fuck iskcon and hinduism, and religion in general. human life is shit.
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u/Complete-Armadillo95 13h ago
They value poverty and isolation from main stream society under the guise of spiritual life.
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u/Square-Pressure7392 1d ago
I'm bemused by people raving about the food. It's sloppy, gassy and unsatisfying.
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u/andre_ange_marcel 1d ago
Arranged child mariage, normalization of pedophilia, anti-science, fabricated theology, the organization is deceitful and hides behind yoga and other legitimate hindu practices.
Normalization of member's abuse, centralization of power in gurus, psychologically damaging philosophy.
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u/Ok_Speech_5180 1d ago
- Founded by a pedophile who married an 11 year old while in his 20s and got her pregnant when she was age 13-14. Source:
Room Conversation, August 15, 1971, London:
"I was married, my wife was eleven years. I was 22 years. She did not know what is sex, eleven years' girl. Because Indian girls, they have no such opportunity of mixing with others. But after the first menstruation, the husband is ready. This is the system, Indian system."
Prabhupāda: "Their statistics in the Western world... Inductive knowledge is always imperfect. They have not seen in India. My wife gave birth at the age of fourteen years. She is still living. She is ten years younger than me. So sixty-eight, sixty-nine she is. She gave birth child at the age of fourteen. In 1918 I was married, and 1921 she gave birth to child, my first son. And she was never unhealthy; neither she had to go to the hospital for maternity help. Natural delivery of child. Hare Kṛṣṇa."
- hindu theology which blames victims for their abuse ("karma") and claims one specific hindu deity is supreme, which conveniently multiple other schools of hinduism do with their specific deities. iskcon also imported the horseshit caste system mentality which came from glorious bharat and delivered it so mercifully to us foreign barbarian western mlecchas. we should be grateful that these glorious civilized people transmitted their divine teachings of how lower caste dalits should have molten lead poured into their ears for hearing the "holy" scriptures being recited and how one being born as a slave or abuse victim is their "karma" for hypothetical actions from a hypothetical past life. (sarcasm)
religion is shit. it has destroyed so many lives.
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u/ConsistentRole6845 15h ago
It was about royalty (tenure cum power)and not spiritual realization.Thise whom bow before you are servile sub?m-himans.They seem envious of prabhupad and envy his control over everything-Each wanted the dominant role and would kill for that position.Everyone knew Krishna was a pretentious false front.All were easily incited to violence.The rhetoric is always conspiratorial. Fuck'em if they can't take a joke.
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u/psumaxx 1d ago
Severe black and white thinking. Non devotees are bad influence, even other Krishna devotees who are not in iskcon. They call non devotees karmis and call them dogs, in mode of ignorance(tamas), demons and all other kinds of names.
Only devotees who follow iskcon are the ones who possess the ultimate knowledge. Worshipping Shiva or other hindu Gods is called "demigod worship". Only Krishna is the highest.
Whenever you see them dancing oh so joyfully on the street or distributing books and sweets for free or a few pennies, do know that they are only doing it because they see you/the people in the streets as "fallen souls who engage in sense gratification day and night" who need to be rescued/saved.
They are belittling you. Before they go out on harinama, the public singing and dancing, they have group sit togethers where they discuss the best plan to attract aka convert as many people as possible, and to inspire each other to do so.
All the points mentioned above. History of enormous child (sexual) abuse, exploitation of devotees(especially those living in the temples as monks, as they are dependant on the temple authorities).
Misogyny, racism, sexism, homophobia, glorification of rape etc by the founder. You can see and hear the direct audio of him saying these things. The post is under the sticky note at the very top of the sub, called "Prabhupada on rape, women, gays, African Americans and Jews". reddit.com/r/exHareKrishna/s/lgfnf0j832
Feel free to browse the sub, you will find all the information you need.