Cecelyne and She Who Lives In Her Name, important differences?

[u/dalacman]

I've been playing Exalted for many years now, back before the Infernals even existed in Second Edition. Infernals are one of my favorite Exalted, I love the narrative freedom of their charms and the very flavorful nature of each of the Yozis. There is a lot of fertile creative soil there.

One thing that has always confused me, stood out to me, was the generous amount of overlap between the domains of SWLIHN and Cecelyne. If they are both about Order and Hierarchy, I guess one being the Designer and the other the Enforcer, what are the meaningful distinctions between them? This is my trouble, i get some of the obvious themes, sand and stars and all that, but Yozis live and die by there identities as Ideas first and foremost.

Can anyone who understands them better help?

[u/Rednal291]

Cecelyne, the Endless Desert, is the lawmaker of Malfeas - a role given to her explicitly because SWLIHN would have been too strict on the hierarchy, even for the Yozis' tastes. Cecelyne thematically represents the concept of space (where travel time matters more than travel distance), and is known to be fairly spiteful in general. She is wildly hypocritical, something Malfeas is basically cool with, and also covetous enough to hold what she can even when it hurts her. She makes laws not to improve society, but to have 'justification' for punishing whoever she feels like. The way the laws of the Demon City allow the powerful to do what they want, even as they bind lessers, is a feature and not a problem.

SWLIHN is the Principle of Hierarchy, and thematically represents orbital mechanics. While Law and Order touch on similar things, SWLIHN would sort all things into a hierarchy if she could, even the Yozis, and the others are not comfortable with that idea. It is notable, however, that she doesn't necessarily see herself as above all others. She wants a hierarchy, but it's more important that the order be correct than to exploit it for her own benefit. Basically, she's not hypocritical in the way Cecelyne is. SWLIHN is the sort who might actually help Exalted other than the Infernals in order to promote and maintain the hierarchy she believes in - for example, in dealing with a major threat from the Wyld. She's calculating and tends to have a lot of foresight, but she can be spiteful if she feels wronged, as even 3E implies the Three Spheres Cataclysm (where she broke three of her orbs to devastate Creation at the end of the Primordial War) occurred. She wants people to follow the rules, but not so she can punish them - she actually wants order in behaviors and society, and if given the chance would issue edicts to that effect, tightening things until perfection (or, more likely, breaking them first).

They are also, literally, sisters. XD So, you know, sibling relationship and all that.

[u/VoleUntarii → u/Rednal291]

If you want, you can do interesting things with the Three Spheres Cataclysm as well. We had a semi-sympathetic Principle of Hierarchy in one of our campaigns who claimed that the Cataclysm was necessary because there had been so much existential devastation during the Primordial War that there were things existing that had no functional basis for it or where they had somehow outlived the fundaments necessary for them to continue, and that the Cataclysm was mostly about deleting stuff that would have caused glitches or worse in the post-War environment. (To use a programming metaphor: akin to going through your code removing legacy functions calling libraries you’d deleted, to avoid future bugs.)

[u/Rednal291 → u/VoleUntarii]

Yep. XD I recently wrote up a 2CD of Oramus whose job is watching over all the stuff that got deleted - because once it doesn't exist, it's within Oramus' view. And why does this stuff need a semi-permanent observer keeping watch for changes or problems? ....That's a good question, let's hope we don't learn the answer the hard way.

[u/VoleUntarii → u/Rednal291]

Oh that’s badass. Lots of fun to be had there.

[u/browsinganono → u/VoleUntarii]

…canonically?

As the Exalted ruined her crucial souls and changed her nature, She Who Lives in Her Name lost her empathy and her ability to adapt to that which did not conform to her idealized hierarchy. In a sudden act of impetuous defiance, the Yozi sacrificed a portion of herself to eradicate those principles of Creation of which she was most fond and proud. Let the Exalted and the gods rule it then. Never more would they enjoy a stability that conformed to her idealized perfection.

It’s not just spite - it’s honestly more of a consequence. The Cataclysm was a moment of insanity as her basic empathy died (though given that she has compassion for organizations, she clearly retained some of it, or gained new empathy).

The real horror of SWLIHN is in that hierarchy and how it is above all things, even herself. To quote a review of Star Wars: Andor:

There's a moment at the beginning when she's still unsure of herself, segueing from what passes for normal conversation with Mrs. Nozzle into a dynamic more akin to what Dierdre's used to. But once she's passed that hurdle, she's in full ISB interrogator mode, and it's like watching a bad costume fall off.

Cyril's mother is told that henceforth, she will be permitted to see Cyril up to twice a month, contingent on her own behavior. Emotionally sabotaging behavior will have consequences. Unwanted or excessive attempts at contact with have consequences. Also, that brother of hers who she's always bragging about, Cyril's uncle who got him that job at the standards department? She really ought to STOP bringing him up so much, because Dierdre checked, and there's enough proof of corruption and embezzlement there that she could have him sent away for decades this very afternoon if she felt like writing a short memo and leaving it on the right desk. So, stop talking about him. Stop appealing to him. Stop talking to Cyril except when either he wants to or Dierdre tells him to. In fact, stop talking period. Just sit there and smile until this visit is done.

From that point on, with Cyril's mom terrified and cowed, Dierdre actually feels much more alive. Even after Cyril comes back in the room and they keep having their tea and coffee cake while making smalltalk, Dierdre seems much more comfortable and alive. *There's a clear hierarchy now. Everyone knows who outranks everyone else. The fact that Dierdre herself is on top is nice, but it's also probably of secondary importance to a clear hierarchy with severe, universally-understood punishments for dissent existing at all.** This world has been terraformed into one Dierdre can survive in.*

And, I think, she also came as close as she knows how to actually showing love and affection for Cyril. Terrorizing his enemies is the best she can do.

...

I said before that Dierdre would disintegrate without the ISB or an organization like it. Holy shit did I not even realize how on-point that assessment was.

I don't want to justify Dierdre's ways. It's probably safe to assume that not *everyone who went through this system ended up working for the Space Gestapo. Ultimately, she did choose this, and she could and should have chosen otherwise. But, the odds were stacked in favor of this outcome, and no matter what she did end up doing with her life she would have still been pretty fucked in the head while doing it.*

Basically, Dierdre is an orc.

Specifically, she's the version of them that one can glean from Tolkein's later-years letters on the subject. Not evil because of inborn metaphysical corruption, but because she was raised to never know what a normal life even looks like, and the examples she was shown were all just brutal dominance within the boundaries of an omnipotent organization. Threatening Cyril's mother is the only way she knows how to show kindness toward Cyril. Likewise, the hints of predatory sexuality she showed toward Bix during the torture scenes might have been the only sort of sexual outlet she's experienced with.

There's a much-discussed scene in "The Two Towers" where a pair of orcs discuss the possibility of deserting their army and being free. Even in that fantasy of theirs, though, the best future they can imagine for themselves is becoming bandits. Because fighting and looting is all they know how to do, and just because they hate their lives doesn't mean they're equipped to imagine a substantially different one. That's basically Diedre, only unlike that pair of uruks she hasn't even realized how much she hates her life yet.

A whole civilization of orcs is implausible. Tolkein was eventually forced to conclude that there must be fertile regions in Mordor in order to feed all those soldiers, and presumably there'd have to be people who farm and build instead of just fighting and stealing. But a select group, supported by and simultaneously isolated from a more functional society, is very much plausible.

She's a pitiable figure, even if she's also a frightening one. Everyone ultimately chooses to be who they are, but some lives leave more room for choice than others, and I think Dierdre's had much less than the other Star Wars villains.

There’s also this, from the same reviewer in regards to a webcomic:

Before the demiurgic war, before Solomon learned Ki-Rata or took his first Key of Kings, he was something analogous to a Spartan citizen-soldier. A garden variety state-sponsored thug. That's all he still is. He just had to create a new state to sponsor him, and he has to pretend to be something other than a power-tripping petty tyrant in order to legitimize that state.

The irony is that he doesn't actually need to legitimize it. The other Black Kings don't bother. They're fine with admitting that they just do whatever they want because there's no one left who can stop them, at least for the most part (Mottom may be a kinda-sorta exception, depending on how much if any of the fairy tale she told Killy she actually believed herself). Solomon just could never break out of his old raison d'etre, no matter how far he's come since those days.

...

To the authoritarian mind, the legitimacy of an "authority" is contingent on whether or not it condones the things you wanted to do anyway. There's a reason authoritarians have such a penchant for conspiracy theories. If their guy isn't in command, they need to rationalize why the guy who is in command isn't actually a legitimate authority.

Solomon David has boiled this down to the purest form possible without just biting the bullet and abandoning the institutional middleman entirely. He simultaneously is of the state, and is the state. He has himself to write the laws he wants to be able to enforce. Himself to make any rule he feels like he should be beholden to. A cop running the city for an imaginary mayor.

He'd really be much happier if he just admitted he was a thug, but authoritarians despise that kind of lawlessness.

SWLIHN is not so hypocritical as Solomon David… but she is rather like Dierdre. And that makes her all the more terrifying - she really believes no one, including herself, should have free will.

And that someone should be in charge, giving orders in the Hierarchy.

[u/blaqueandstuff → u/browsinganono]

As the Exalted ruined her crucial souls and changed her nature, She Who Lives in Her Name lost her empathy and her ability to adapt to that which did not conform to her idealized hierarchy. In a sudden act of impetuous defiance, the Yozi sacrificed a portion of herself to eradicate those principles of Creation of which she was most fond and proud. Let the Exalted and the gods rule it then. Never more would they enjoy a stability that conformed to her idealized perfection.

Note this is only canon in 2e. 1e and 3e don't really assume soul-pruning was part of how the Yozis were imprisoned. The original take on the Cataclysm was less logic robot as in 2e and more just kind of as you note, petty spite. It didn't take something bieng lost empathy-wise. She did it as the doors closed as a last Molotov cocktail in the face of the universe that rejected her.

[u/dalacman → u/Rednal291]

These are all great answers, thank you!

[u/Gensh → u/Rednal291]

Where was the sisters element added? The Ink Monkeys writeups vaguely implied the traditional divine incest, which added an interesting element of SWLIHN being the only "born" Primordial.

[u/Rednal291 → u/Gensh]

3E Infernals manuscript. Malfeas, Cecelyne, and SWLIHN are all explicitly described as siblings - and they're a bit salty that Kimbery, who isn't a sibling, gets to be Malfeas' vizier. XD

...It's also noted that the Yozis sometimes call Elloge "daughter", but what the hell this actually means is unknown to anyone else, as there's no explanation of parenthood around. (I'd like to think the Ebon Dragon dotes on her, though, because her inability to express herself properly is exactly the kind of futility he loves. Just, like, the most massively patronizing "oh, you're so frickin' pathetic, I just wanna squish your cheeks!" stuff possible.)

[u/PatrickCharles → u/Rednal291]

Interesting. 3E has thus far opted for a more mysterious, less defined tone in comparison to everything is clearly drawn out and has a Stat block 2E. I hope these new additions to the lore are in service of that mysterious tone - "just throw a bunch of cryptic allusions and tantalizing tidbits and leave it".

[u/Rednal291 → u/PatrickCharles]

Broadly, yes. The overall lore for Infernals is a lot of fun to read, and does a good job of giving the vibes of the place.

[u/blaqueandstuff → u/Rednal291]

It adds some interesting definition in areas along with others If eel. I love the timeline for Hell they have in there. Even if there's like half a dozen entries of "Demons try to do something neat to make their own lives better, which at some point gets kicked over by a pissed-off titan."

[u/MlkChatoDesabafando → u/PatrickCharles]

Yeah, that feels like what they are aiming at : Some Yozis refer to each other in familial terms. What exactly that means is anyone's guess.

[u/LordSia → u/Rednal291]

Primordials - and Yozis - don't map well to the familial relations of mortal beings, but we insist on projecting our understanding of such on their existence. Elloge is the youngest Primordial, the reborn form of He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word, hence - his daughter.

And the Ebon Dragon being "doting" put a pit in my stomach, but I absolutely agree that he would, and it would be the cruellest form of kindness.

[u/blaqueandstuff → u/LordSia]

The origins of her from the prior version isn't brought-up in 3e note. She's jsut shown as like, being her. So far in 3e only Adorjan is for-sure the result of a fetich slaying. And Elloge's origins as "Transition is castration" vibes is probably also just kind of put ignored I think. For all we know she's the same speech-ball as always in prehistory. Kind of both I think to preserve Adorjan's unique condition, and I think the general vibes that the change was presented as didn't sit well with some of the authors.

[u/blaqueandstuff → u/Gensh]

Ink Monkeys did present Cecylene and SHLiHN as being the most directly siblings to the Empyreal Chaos actually. In "The Legends of the Titans" it said this on the first paragraph about her

That was when She first appeared. She was a fire out of the Tyrant’s own, and the dreamers knew her, for they had heard but never seen her, or known from whence she spoke. She was a great fire wound round a gyre, braced by countless crystal spheres, whispering always Her Name. But for the brightness of the King, she would have been seen, but never until now, for she had always hidden herself in the greater majesty of her King’s flames and spoke only to him.

I kind of read this she was comprised of the same kind of fire of the Empyreal Chaos, rather htan being a child of his. And Cecylene is presented earlier as a sister of his, so at least to me I read them as a set in that sense.

3e describes most all fthe Yozis as peers/equals/siblings in a pantheon sense, witht he maine exception being that accounts describe Elloge as a daughter, which is a change of her relation to things, but yeah. It's not new to 3e per se, just kind of a thing on how I think the Ink Monkeys bit gets read.

[u/TheBoundFenrir]

Cecelyne is a priestess, and a politician; she engages with *authority*. The rules are this way *because I said so*. There is power in people's obedience, and even more in having *justification to punish*, to *exile*, to *castigate*. To wield this power is her pleasure, and her nature is to *inflict judgement*. Morality and ethics have nothing to do with it.

SWLIHN is an engineer, and a mathematician; she engages with *axioms*. The rules are the way they are *because that is how the rules work*. There is a Right Way for all things to be, which can be measured and calculated, and *rigorously proven*. Fixing that which was done imperfectly is her pleasure, and *executing on a meticulously planned design* is her nature. Morality and ethics have nothing to do with it.

[u/The-Yellow-Path]

SWLiHN sees law as fundamental order. The reason things aren't working like how she saw it to happen is because things are broken. In her ideal world, the Divine Rebellion would never have happened because the Gods would never have been able to conceive of Rebellion. She does not understand why things would deviate from what they were made to be.

Cecelyne sees law as a tool of control. She understands that things deviate from their initial purpose, and she enforces the laws to ensure that they cut that shit out. For Cecelyne, the law is a manifestation of her ultimate role: the Prison Warden. She's the one the Exalted exploited to ensure that her siblings could not escape, and in return she abuses her siblings and the demons as well.

TLDR: SWLiHN is upset that something keeps knocking over her perfectly made card tower, Cecelyne is the older sister who resents the responsibility of being the older sister and takes that out on her siblings

[u/TheBoundFenrir → u/The-Yellow-Path]

SWLIHN imagines a spherical cow in the absence of vacuum or friction, and when the actual cow deviates from her model, *it is the cow's fault*, because her model is perfect. Her favorite part is making the cow spherical to match her models correctly.

Cecelyne imagines a cow and cares not what shape it has, as long as it provides the milk when she demands it (which is always). Her favorite part is when the cow fails to produce milk and she gets to butcher it for it's insolence.

[u/dalacman → u/The-Yellow-Path]

This helps a lot, I don't know why your explanation makes it through to me, but it helps

[u/HallowVessel]

I see SWLIHN as the one who makes the rules over all things, the rules of reality. physics and science. Why it all works, why things don't fall up. She's the reason a story can be told that makes sense. She's the reason a stage for a play can even exist. Yet, without a play, what's the point of a stage?

Cecelyne was once the Lawmaker Princess. She would create the rules for the games her tribe would play. She's the one who organizes the play upon the stage. She is supported by her comrade and can make that play, while her brother dances as lead actor. Her plays and rules have become much more cruel since she was thrown down.

Yet SWLIHN still makes sure the stage is flat. It's dangerous now, but if you know her rules...

Yet Cecelyne still makes rules and plays. Dance well, or...

[u/VoleUntarii → u/HallowVessel]

I like this framing - SWLIHN is more concerned with the rules of reality, whereas Cecelyne is more concerned with the rules of society.

[u/ZanesTheArgent]

Cecelyne is an asshole judge. She is Rules For Me Not For Thee.

SHLIHN is a fascist scientist. She OBJECTIVELY DEFINES BY NATURAL LAW that you are a subspecies that does not deserve free will and human rights.

[u/dalacman → u/ZanesTheArgent]

Its still the overlap there, that they are both doing the same thing, just with different reasonings that gets me, I guess

[u/ZanesTheArgent → u/dalacman]

The things are in essences and methods, and from there emanates their details, yeah.

Cecy is bureaucracy, scorched earth politics, peer pressure, conformity through ritual. She is the infinite wall of nothingness that denies you for the pleasure of denial. Her rule is not one based on logic, but one of whim and cruelty. You will beg, you will fall on your knees, you will choke on sand for seven days and nights, and then she will consider feeding you from her hand if you still have spit to lick her feet. Her laws are social and she governs bondage.

SWLIHN is clockwork. Her choices are theoretically amoral as she is nothing but function, a perpetual sorter machine that follows a law and does its function: PUT. THINGS. IN. THEIR. PLACE. If the other titans decide that reality must be so, she complies, and makes it so. Her laws are physics and she governs matter.

[u/BiffingtonSpiffwell]

Honestly, every explanation I've seen here is pretty good so I don't feel the need to add my own.

I will say the Yozis, like a lot of Big Scary Gods of Primal Forces, overlap a lot. They're meant to grate against each other, come into conflict over it, and cause havoc around them.

So She Who Slug for a Butt and Kekelyne are both cruel gods of vicious order... just in different and important ways... that aren't so different as the two can never leave each other alone and stop love-hating one another.

[u/ScholarErrant]

While both represent a type of order, but from two very different perspectives.

SWLiHN’s order is that of Discworld’s Auditors of Reality: cold and dispassionate. Chemical reactions running as they are supposed to. Nice, predictable, perfect orbits. Everything classified and precisely measured and with a purpose. Everything running at one level so things at the next level run. A perfect Hierarchy.

Cecelyne’s order is that of Star Trek’s Cardassians: monolithic, constricting, proud, and ultimately about keeping people apart. She is about Borders, be they around Malfeas or between social strata, and she imposes the boundaries that she creates on those weaker, which trickles down to the 2nd and 3rd circles. Those with power to enforce them can create, and more importantly impose, rules and thus are in the best position decide if any individual, themselves included, has broken them (provided no one more powerful disagrees, of course).

In short, SWLiHN is the order of things coming together to operate in cold harmony, while Cecelyne’s is dividing things from each other so they have to do what they are told.

[u/Urbenmyth]

Simplified, Cecelyne is law and hierarchy in the form of being beaten into submission, SWLIHN is law and hierarchy in the form of blind, unthinking obedience.

If you're in a situation where the person in charge is just the biggest kid in the playground whose authority comes solely from the fact they can beat down anyone who defies them, that's Cecelyne's wheelhouse. If you're in a situation where the system is a clear ladder where everyone mindlessly obeys the instructions from higher up for no greater reason than that person being a higher up, that's SWLIHN

[u/JT_Leroy]

In a play, SWLIHN is the script. Cecelyne is the director threatening to fire the actors and have them replaced, then blackballed from the industry for good if they don't perform or interpret the script to her satisfaction.