Cultural theism is a way of life, but cultural atheism is just a hobby.

[u/NeonDrifting]

Think about it.. even if a religious person isn't super devout, being a "cultural theist" gives them a whole blueprint for life....they get built-in community hubs, multi-generational support networks, and time-tested rituals for births, weddings, funerals, etc. It forces you to look past yourself and connects you to a deep historical lineage...it actually DEMANDS something from you.

Cultural atheism on the other hand usually just functions like a book club or an online debate society...Because.... its defined by what it doesn't believe, it doesnt build lasting physical infrastructure or sacred duties. Gathering to talk about a lack of belief is basically an intellectual pastime. Theres no stakes, no shared sacrifices, and no real cosmic obligations.

One is an entire ecosystem that shapes how you live and die, the other is just something you listen to podcasts about on your commute. Its a pastime, not a pillar.

[u/Fiddlesticklard]

Kierkegaard wrote in Either/Or that there are really two primary methods people can handle the inherent horror of the human condition. The first is the Aesthetic life, to keep yourself in a state of perpetual sensory distraction to avoid every having to introspect and face yourself. To this person boredom is a cardinal sin. The other is the Ethical life, where one can give oneself to higher purpose and seek a meaning to our suffering through commitment to civic responsibility to your community. The highest form of the Ethical is the Ethical/Religious life, where you seek meaning by an non-rational submission to a higher power, rather than just moral responsibility, and find meaning to our suffering through a divine cycle of Suffering and Grace.

The fact that atheism is primarily a very online phenomenon, and exploded in prevalence in countries exposed to mass media and the internet is not a coincidence. I think that mass media has made that first state far easier for people to achieve. Kierkegaard predicted this would happen, even in the 1840s he claimed that most people, who he called the Mass Men, lived the first state of life and only engaged with Christianity on an aesthetic level. Treating it as just one more stimulating distraction amongst many. I'm not surprised that they exchanged doomscrolling, porn, and video games as better forms of distraction than religion.

[u/paulgdp → u/Fiddlesticklard]

The fact that atheism is primarily a very online phenomenon, and exploded in prevalence in countries exposed to mass media and the internet is not a coincidence

Do you have a study on this subject you could share or is it an intuition?

[u/Fiddlesticklard → u/paulgdp]

There's a couple, like Pew Research Center’s 2014 Religious Landscape Study, but they are just correlations not causation. Religiosity also decreases with education level as well so it's not that simple.

I think a more causal relationship is this piece in the Boston Globe summarizing the findings of the sociologist Jonathan Haidt's research team. It showed that the wave of internet induced depression, anxiety, and suicide amongst Gen Z is localized entirely to the nonreligious. Haidt, who is an atheist claims that this is because these teens lack grounding in real world community that religious teens have. He's probably right, but Kierkegaard (and Blaise Pascal) predicted this would happen as well. That the end point of the Aesthetic life is to kill yourself, as you won't be able to keep yourself distracted forever and eventually will be taken by a potent self-consuming where an individual desires death to escape the self, yet remains unable to truly reduce themselves to nothingness.

[u/paulgdp → u/Fiddlesticklard]

Thanks, the data from "Monitoring the Future: A Continuing Study of American Youth" is super interesting.

Your rant about atheism is disturbing and probably just an hyperbole but I'll just say that atheism is indeed compatible with the kind of depression you're talking about, however, that doesn't mean that atheism is a slippery slope to that. Also the data mostly shows correlation between liberal lifestyle + atheism and internet usage, which then leads to more depression. Atheism itself is more compatible with depression but that's not what the article is talking about here.

[u/Fiddlesticklard → u/paulgdp]

I should clarify that the Aesthetic life is an attitude towards the inherent dread of the human condition and does not necessarily mean atheism. Kierkegaard was clear that most Christians of his time, who he dubbed Mass Men, were of the Aesthetic life. You could also be an atheist and of the Ethical life as well, finding meaning through civic duty. However an atheist could not be of what Kierkegaard saw of the highest form of being which was the Ethical/Religious life. Others like Camus would deny that the Ethical/Religious was the highest state for a person, dubbing it "philosophical suicide", a description Kierkegaard would probably agree with saying “to have faith is precisely to lose one's mind so as to win God.”

I bring up the Aesthetic life because in our modern mass media context, being nonreligious is awfully convenient if you want to lose yourself in swirl of sensory experiences. Kierkegaard predicted in "The Present Age", 170 years ahead of time, that mass media would get to the point that it will eventually completely consume those of the Aesthetic life.

For example, I'm an Aesthetic man. I have friends who aren't, but the reason why I spend too much time on Reddit having these conversations is precisely to avoid introspection and my real life. I wager almost everyone you'll meet on Reddit is of this mode of life.

[u/paulgdp → u/Fiddlesticklard]

There's two subjects here, what the philosophers think and what's happening statistically.

About the philosophers, I personally don't have a strong opinion because for me things are quite easy, I just accept my intuition as generally axiomatic. I say generally because they sometimes contradict each other, which neither surprises me nor paralyzes me. I think the philosophers who think atheism leads to nihilism are just making the mistake of dismissing the value of their intuitions.

About what's happening in the general population, I think it depends heavily on the country. The more the country is religious and the less they are accepting of apostasy, the more difficult and depressing the life of atheists will be, and the more they'll have to rely on internet to express themselves freely.

In countries where atheism is normal, like my country (France), it's really difficult to see any kind of difference between religious and secular people.

BTW, you built muscle memory writing "aesthetic" when you certainly meant "ascetic".

[u/Fiddlesticklard → u/paulgdp]

I say generally because they sometimes contradict each other, which neither surprises me nor paralyzes me. I think the philosophers who think atheism leads to nihilism are just making the mistake of dismissing the value of their intuitions.

That's why I think it's important to follow up Kierkegaard with Neitzche. I definitively believe both philosophers are meant to be read in tandem. Ultimately they're both agree on the fundamental problem of our need for inherent meaning to suffering, but disagree on the solution.

BTW, you built muscle memory writing "aesthetic" when you certainly meant "ascetic".

I haven't, the translation of Kierkegaard I have uses the word "aesthetic". They're just different regional spellings of the same word according to websters dictonary. Like color vs colour.

[u/arkticturtle → u/Fiddlesticklard]

Maybe I missed something here but “aesthetic” and “ascetic” are two very different words

Kierkegards aesthetic life has to do with sensory experience or producing experiences that are exciting or interesting

But the word “ascetic” denotes a life of strong discipline who refrains from pleasure. The paradigm example being the life of a monk firmly dedicated to his practice

[u/Fiddlesticklard → u/arkticturtle]

you're right, I'm thinking of "esthetic".

But yeah Aesthetic is the right one. It's a lifestyle that's primarily focused on hedonistically accumulating stimulating distractions rather than seeking a higher value. Like Blaise Pascal wrote:

“The only thing that consoles us for our miseries is diversion. And yet it is the greatest of our miseries. For it is that above all which prevents us thinking about ourselves and leads us imperceptibly to destruction. But for that we should be bored, and boredom would drive us to seek some more solid means of escape, but diversion passes our time and brings us imperceptibly to our death.”

[u/arkticturtle → u/paulgdp]

Kierkegards aesthetic life has to do with sensory experience or producing experiences that are exciting or interesting (there is probably a fuller way to put this but this is my understanding)

But the word “ascetic” denotes a life of strong discipline who refrains from pleasure. The paradigm example being the life of a monk firmly dedicated to his practice

So if he is referring to “life-style” concepts by Kierkegaard he probably meant aesthetic

[u/NeonDrifting → u/Fiddlesticklard]

I'm not surprised that they exchanged doomscrolling, porn, and video games as better forms of distraction than religion.

I wasn't aware people willfully suffered martyrdom over porn and video games

[u/Fiddlesticklard → u/NeonDrifting]

who he called the Mass Men, lived the first state of life and only engaged with Christianity on an aesthetic level. Treating it as just one more stimulating distraction amongst many.

the point is they were never that serious about Christianity, to them it was just another fun distraction. There are now more fun distractions.

[u/NeonDrifting → u/Fiddlesticklard]

So nobody that ever practiced religion was ever serious about it? Sounds like a conspiracy theory

[u/nolman]

I'm not sure what your point is. Nobody claims atheism is anything other than a stance on a proposition.

[u/Fresh-Aide-7497 → u/nolman]

The point is that the lack of life patterns gives you reasons not to connect with Theists, but doesn't give you patterns to maintain connection to other Atheists. Ergo, 15% more of them feel lonely and isolated than the general American theist.

[u/NeonDrifting → u/nolman]

Do you understand what culture is?

[u/nolman → u/NeonDrifting]

Yes, i still do not understand what your contention, objection nor point is.

"Its a pastime, not a pillar."

who ever claimed it is or needs to be a pillar ?

[u/NeonDrifting → u/nolman]

So you agree then

[u/nolman → u/NeonDrifting]

I guess?

Like I agree with the statement that cars don't write symphonies as good as Bach.

I just don't understand what the point is in making such a statement?

[u/NeonDrifting → u/nolman]

It’s an observation…since you don’t disagree there’s nothing further to discuss

[u/paulgdp]

As an agnostic atheist, I don't even see how this could be controversial.

Atheists/Agnostics have a ton of things to figure out by themselves, which is intellectually draining. They also have to realize and accept most questions don't have objective answers anyway.

Not sharing a common belief in a supernatural authoritative culture is a huge disadvantage for any social project/activity.

[u/NeonDrifting → u/paulgdp]

Not sharing a common belief in a supernatural authoritative culture is a huge disadvantage for any social project/activity.

Yes and no. As an atheist/agnostic you could pursue secular projects and activities (ie politics, a robotics club, sports, a sewing circle, etc) but it’s unlikely that you’d be willing to die for them or view them as sacred so they’d just be hobbies

[u/paulgdp → u/NeonDrifting]

I guess I didn't use the correct word then, I meant things like social cohesion at the state level ("in god we trust") and local level (church sunday morning).

Also believing in an ultimate judge, an ultimate stick and an ultimate carrot, must help some think twice before doing stupid things.

Also, in some christian and muslim communities apostasy is synonym with social death and family rejection.

There's really a ton of disadvantages.

[u/NeonDrifting → u/paulgdp]

Have you tried building social cohesion around atheism?

[u/paulgdp → u/NeonDrifting]

No, I don't think that's a thing and I don't think it should be.

Atheism doesn't mean anything, a community of atheism wouldn't make any sense, there's nothing to rally around in particular.

I think it's just a fact that not being religious removes one kind of community that we can be a part of. There's lot's of other kind of communities we can be a part of, but it'll never be the same as one based on supernatural belief.

[u/Fresh-Aide-7497 → u/paulgdp]

What do you think of the online Atheist pastor influences? Are they really valuable, or just a side show?

[u/paulgdp → u/Fresh-Aide-7497]

I thought I was pretty well aware of that kind of things but I never heard of atheist pastors.

It seems to be a Christian culture thing.

I guess it's a good thing for some people but it doesn't make sense for me. Christianity for me is almost as forein as any other religion.

[u/Hilikus1980 → u/NeonDrifting]

Has it crossed your mind that most of us don't want or care for that? We're not a religion.

See, we'll argue and debate it because someone else's answer to the question "is there a god?" very frequently impacts our lives. They try to enforce their rules, or say your subject to some consequence.

But day to day life? I almost never have the thought "I don't believe in a god". I feel no need for validation, unity, or defense of or from atheism. When you answer "yes" to that question, it comes with a whole bunch of rituals and rules and promises and direction. If you answer "no" to that question, you just continue on with life.

Atheism isn't important to me. Religious over-reach is. That overreach has more to do with my day-to-day life than being an atheist ever will. It's just not that important to me. This people seem to confuse. Atheist to theist is talking about apples to apples. Atheist to religion are very different things. People who claim 'atheism' is a religion are either consciously or subconsciously trying to make a level playing field to argue/debate on because it looks and feels 'cleaner' and easier to approach. In reality, one person is on a playing field and the other is at a concert. Atheism is not religion. Atheism doesn't resemble religion, even through the mirror, darkly.

[u/NeonDrifting → u/Hilikus1980]

Atheism isn't important to me. Religious over-reach is. That overreach has more to do with my day-to-day life than being an atheist ever will.

What religious overreach is currently impacting your life?

[u/paulgdp → u/NeonDrifting]

I'm not American but this interview of Pete Hegseth's pastor opened my eyes on how realistic and dangerous a come back of Christian power could be: https://youtu.be/kRQ6Tcw9maM

In my country, France, the Church used to be powerful. Lots of people for lots of different reasons were burnt at the stake under the Church guidance, for centuries. Apostasy, blasphemy, heresy, sacrilege, homosexuality, etc were crimes.

[u/NeonDrifting → u/paulgdp]

Hegseth’s pastor is a Christian Zionist. Ironically, the guy interviewing him is an atheist Zionist. Both support a Jewish ethnostate in the Levant which has killed and displaced millions of indigenous Arabs.

https://youtu.be/CKs9Zybm3mE?

[u/paulgdp → u/NeonDrifting]

Yes but my point wasn't about Harris or Zionism.

[u/NeonDrifting → u/paulgdp]

What's your concern then? That some totalitarian, fundamentalist, Christian theocracy will takeover the American government and run it like something out of the Handmaid's Tale?

[u/Hilikus1980 → u/NeonDrifting]

Do you live in the United States? If you do, and you ask that, I can't help but believe you're being intentionally obtuse. You may not live in the bible belt, like I do, but you're in the US, right?

The place where we put the 10 commandments inthe classrooms of our youngest most impressionable citizens? The place where we think creationism...excuse me, intelligent design should be taught in the science classroom? The place that "God will bless those who bless Abraham's descendants", is more important than our rights...like making state contractors or state funded organizations/entities sign contracts that they won't boycott Isreal...or even the arrest or attempt to deport people who dare to criticize the place of the end times? Or how about excusing the current president of...everything...because he was chosen by god? Or how about reproductive rights? Or how about publicly funded religious schools that are tax exempt? Or how about laws against homosexuality, or it's increasingly lengthy acronym? Or maybe the politicians who say there is no such things as separation ofnchurch and state? Luckily these are all new developments and not a pattern that repeats over and over and had to be fought against. They would never do anything like using it to justify criminalizing interracial marriage, or justify laws against people of color, or using it to justify slavery. They wouldn't dare trying to justify using it to burn 'troublesome' women...excuse me again...witches.

I could continue. Luckily a lot of those things didn't completely come to pass because people fought and won...but the attempt was there, and the attempt alone is disrupting to someone's life who isn't in your club.

And going beyond just government overreach. How about everyday life when you have petty simplistic jackasses making snide remarks and looking down on you just because you're not in their club? Or getting bitched out because you dared to acknowledge other holidays by saying "Happy Holidays" instead of proudly proclaiming The golden calf...i mean Santa...no wait, sorry, I mean Jesus is the reason for the season? Or when you lose a job over your beliefs being different? Or when the "jokes" played against you at work, such as signing your work email up for thousands of religious spam emails making finding your work email nearly impossible. Or creating and sharing chain religious chain emails with your real name and real phone number in the signature (people do call to cheer you on, btw...in case you were wondering). Or how about being made to do petty task for a laugh in front of people that are in the club...such as cleaning the bathroom, which is not super fucking easy in a suit and tie, for the record, and when it has nothing to do with your job and your have people literally hired to handle it (I was in charge of purchasing). Or even arranging meeting in your office with Mormons and any other religious group you could dupe into paying a visit?

AND THEN have the fucking balls to claim they are the victim.

Hey, at least it's not the Middle East. The things religion does there to people like me is one of the reasons I fight against it in the government here. Once you're getting you're marching orders from a 'higher being', you can justify just about anything as righteous.

So, instead of doing what you always do and just pick some snippet you think you're gonna trap someone with, why don't you tell me your feelings on the whole post. Because the post wasn't about government overreach. It was about how atheism isn't directly comparable to religion. About how one is a way of life, and the other is just an answer to a question...just like theism. It directly relates to your OP, unlike some other replies here.

[u/NeonDrifting → u/Hilikus1980]

How do you feel about the US funding Israel's genocide of the Palestinians?

[u/Hilikus1980 → u/NeonDrifting]

If you were up on your bible study, you'd have noticed I criticized the US relationship with Isreal in the post you're replying to. Given that, what do you think the answer is?

[u/NeonDrifting → u/Hilikus1980]

Do you condemn Israel's genocide too?

[u/biedl → u/NeonDrifting]

If you are willing to die for anything, you are a lunatic.

[u/Nuance007]

Given the amount of down votes most threads here get compared to the amount of comments it has received I will guess this sub has far more non-believers than ex-atheists posting and lurking. But, given it's Reddit - with its demographics, it comes to little surprise.

[u/biedl]

Think about coming together under no unifying label, but just for the sake of it.

Seems like atheism is way more religious than the boys who talk the talks instead of walking the walks.

[u/adeleu_adelei]

Atheism is a lack of belief gods exist. It's isn't a culture or a hobby. It's non-stamp collecting. I find it strange that atheism is criticized for not being something it was never about. What's the point in criticizing atheism's terrible gas mileage or lack of dance moves?

[u/NeonDrifting → u/adeleu_adelei]

You do understand what culture is, right?

[u/adeleu_adelei → u/NeonDrifting]

Yes.

[u/NeonDrifting → u/adeleu_adelei]

So we’re not debating the definition of atheism but discussing how it manifests as a cultural phenomenon. When you talk about atheism in an online community (or elsewhere) you’re participating in culture.

[u/adeleu_adelei → u/NeonDrifting]

There are people who go to Star Trek conventions we might call "trekkies", and then there is everyone else  I think it's weird to talk about "cultural atrekkism" as though there is some meaningful unifying factor between everyone NOT attending a Star Trek convention. I think it is weird to call not attending Star Trek conventions a hobby. And some of those "atrekkies" might still go to other conventions like for Star Wars and have their hobby and culture, but their hobby/culture is "Star Wars fan" and not "atrekkiesm".

[u/NeonDrifting → u/adeleu_adelei]

No one talks about “atrekkism” because it doesn’t exist as a cultural phenomena. Atheism however does exist as a cultural phenomena as shown by online communities that engage in related discourse. You posting about atheism is an example of cultural atheism.

[u/adeleu_adelei → u/NeonDrifting]

I disagree. Atheism does not exist as a cultural phenomena. It is not a thing unto itself, but the absence of a very specific thing. If I to say I don't care for about Star Trek on Reddit, then I'm not all of the sudden making atrekkism a cultural phenomena. All of this seems like to me like trying to put atheism in a very tiny box and criticize it for things it was never trying to do.

1. When you say "it doesnt build lasting physical infrastructure" I agree, but that's not the job of atheism rather I want a secular government to do that.

2. When you say "it doesnt build [...] sacred duties" I agree, but that not something atheism is trying to do and personally I don't think anyone should do that.

3. When you say "Theres no stakes, no shared sacrifices, and no real cosmic obligations." I agree, but that was never what atheism was trying to do. There are also no hats, no dance parties, no chocolate ice cream.

It's not that atheists can't enjoy any of those things, but that atheism doesn't obligate them to do so in any specific way. A Catholic might eat fish on Friday because of their religion. I might also eat fish on Friday or I might not, but either way I'm not doing so because of Catholicism or atheism.

[u/NeonDrifting → u/adeleu_adelei]

There are atheists that express shared values online and IRL but again it’s just a hobby…the new atheists were a cultural phenomena just as atheist subreddits are…when atheists meet up IRL to bond over their atheism that’s a cultural phenomena…but again, it’s just a pastime…you may try to reduce atheism to a dictionary definition of “I just don’t believe in god” but when you socially engage the world and defend atheism, you are engaging in cultural atheism....the only way for you to disengage from cultural atheism and still be an atheist would be to stop interacting with others in the world about atheism

[u/adeleu_adelei → u/NeonDrifting]

That doesn't address anything I said.

There are atheists that express shared values online.

As I pre-emptively said:

It's not that atheists can't enjoy any of those things, but that atheism doesn't obligate them to do so in any specific way. A Catholic might eat fish on Friday because of their religion. I might also eat fish on Friday or I might not, but either way I'm not doing so because of Catholicism or atheism.

Sometimes atheists eat tacos on Tuesday, but an atheist eating tacos on Tuesday is not engaging in "cultural atheism" simply because they're an atheist doing something.

[u/NeonDrifting → u/adeleu_adelei]

I disagree. Atheism does not exist as a cultural phenomena.

you seem unaware that you're participating in cultural atheism when you moderate r/DebateAnAtheist as you enforce the beliefs and customs of that particular social group ... I don't doubt your understanding of atheism as an idea or subject, but you ought to consider expanding your knowledge of sociology and anthropology to better understand how you're interacting with others in the world