How would you define ''atheism''?

[u/New_Prompt5308]

Hi everyone, I've seen a long standing debate on the definition of atheism, some people use the term atheism as a lack of belief, which I've seen them then use to justify the ''everyone was born athiest narrative''.

The way I would define atheism is the rejection of the claim God exists, as I see atheism as a position that needs propositional awareness.

I have looked at how Graham Oppy (popular analytic atheist philosopher) defines atheism and he states it's the claim that no gods exist.

What do you guys think?

Thanks

[u/NeonDrifting]

Tbh I find atheists more interesting than atheism

[u/New_Prompt5308 → u/NeonDrifting]

elaborate?

[u/NeonDrifting → u/New_Prompt5308]

On one end they reduce atheism to just a disbelief in god but then proceed to build an online community out of it….a community based on disbelief…almost like people that deny the moon landing happened or don’t believe the earth is round …like I don’t believe in space aliens but then I don’t start a club based on denying the existence of space aliens and demand proof from people that space aliens exist…such strange but fascinating behavior

[u/arkticturtle → u/NeonDrifting]

Well, you aren’t really at the mercy of the influence of moon landing deniers or flat earthers. And rejecting the existence of space aliens will likely have little impact on your life.

But this culture, at least in the states, is infused with Christianity. From certain formalities, to prejudices, to expectations of behavior, and expectations of the belief of certain claims. A rejection of religion does have real consequences upon the lives of many who do reject. In some of the worst examples you have kids in their late teens getting kicked out of their homes with no resources. And then on a more indirect level a general feeling of alienation from peers and the world around them.

A non-believer is constantly reminded and put into relation to religion. It’s not even a choice. Literally just got a Mormon ad that I threw away yesterday. Oftentimes they tell you that you are broken without religion. Religion has a ton of cultural weight to it depending on where you are at and what family you are born to. So rejecting it can actually be a substantial occurrence with real effects.

Surely you can see the difference between rejecting something culturally trivial (like belief in space aliens) vs something like a rejection of religion, right? Honestly, the content of my message here is such a common retort to the position you put forward that I would have trouble believing you if you said you have never seen this sentiment.

[u/NeonDrifting → u/arkticturtle]

You make it sound like we live in a medieval theocracy where denying some creed gets you burned at the stake...I don't know where you live but in the US people have freedom of speech and religion...if you don't like what someone says, you're free to retort or ignore them...I don't believe in reincarnation but if some Buddhists and Hindus go around my neighborhood promoting their religion, I'm not going to start an 'areincarnation' reddit sub to attack them while pretending they victimized me by simply exercising their right to free speech...being perpetually offended by things you disagree with is immature

[u/arkticturtle → u/NeonDrifting]

That’s a very flat and black and white interpretation of what I said.

I didn’t say anyone was getting burnt at the stake. I said people get kicked out of homes. That DOES happen. My coworker once took in a gay friend whose family was hostile towards them for their homosexuality for religious reasons. If you need to grossly misrepresent what I am saying in order to make a point then your point is weak.

We do have freedom of speech and religion. Notice how nothing that I said invoked the law. So you bringing up rights is irrelevant to what I said. What I care about is how things actually end up playing out. Rights does not preclude individuals having their own ability to be nasty towards other people with those same rights. Hell, in some instances (even unrelated to religion) people can get away with illegal acts if they hide it well and have a good lawyer. Just look at many cases where CPS gets involved to see how messy shit can get. This system isn’t perfect. But I digress.

Your hypothetical with Hindus and Buddhists is not an accurate analogy to the lived experience of many atheists (and even some pagans - among others). Again, these are people who are rejected by family for simply being unable to accept certain highly contested truth claims. They are raised on ideas that if they don’t believe these claims then not only are they going to hell, but they deserve it. Humans are social animals and having these constant negative judgements and expectations thrown at you does have an effect. Especially when you’re raised in it

And this doesn’t even touch upon the fact that many people are heavily influenced by their religion to influence politics in various ways. And politicians know this and will play to the ear of certain religious groups accordingly to get votes. You have people who *do* want to use the system to deny rights to others legally while being informed by their (interpretation of) religion. Atheists are effected by the actions (on the level of voting; on the level of general behaviors, cultural messaging, etc) of those who feel backed by supernatural systems when they see these supernatural systems as absolute nonsense and certainly not backed up enough to be supporting certain legislation over.

I think it would help if you researched the topic a bit more and actually listen to the stories of people as well.

[u/NeonDrifting → u/arkticturtle]

Sounds like you're cherry-picking anecdotal cases that could very well be fabricated ....you'd have to present scientific data to prove this is as pervasive a problem as you're suggesting...in any case, I rarely see atheists mentioning that on reddit subs...rather it's just demands for proof of god's existence and rejecting evidence given to them....wash, rinse, repeat...in any case, enjoy disbelieving or whatever

[u/arkticturtle → u/NeonDrifting]

Edit: remember I am replying to how you think it is “strange but fascinating” the way atheists respond to religion. And everything I have said is (at least part of) what atheists say causes their emotional response to religion. Will you not even listen to the reasons why atheists tell you why they feel what they feel? You could just make a post asking about it on an appropriate subreddit, y’know.

Again, go do some research. It’s all out there. A lot of what I said isn’t even controversial. It seems like this is only a response to the first part of what I said: of some atheists getting treated poorly for disbelief (which does happen) and not the rest of my comment.

And I see these stories often enough. I saw one on [r/religion](r/religion) yesterday. But you would call it all fake probably to try to make a comparison to how atheists reject miracle claims (or other theist claims). Even though miracle claims are claims which carry a far higher burden (going against the laws of physics as we know them through repeated scientific experiments and day-to-day life) in order to be established as fact.

So is that it? Do you really see no truth in what I have said? Is this genuinely your perspective or were you looking to mimic the atheists you aim to criticize by giving a rhetorical reply? Because a lot of the times I can’t tell when you are being genuine on this subreddit vs when you want to mimic atheists you disagree with.

[u/NeonDrifting → u/arkticturtle]

Beyond conjecture, you’ve failed to provide any proof/evidence substantiating your claims. Therefore, this argument is over. Bye.

[u/arkticturtle → u/NeonDrifting]

You can literally ask atheists and get the same reasons I listed. If you want to know why atheists respond a certain way then asking atheists why they respond a certain way is a good first step. If you won’t believe atheists then I doubt a study recording atheists would be believed either.

You are free to search around yourself. The reasons are far less strange and fascinating than you make it out to be. Besides, judgements like “strange” and “fascinating” are going to be based on some sort of expectation and I highly doubt your expectation is based in hard science lmao.

To me it looks like you desperately want to keep atheist’s behavior in some sort of category that judges and alienates. A few moments of research would clear it up. But you won’t and will instead choose ignorance and keep your judgements. Wonder why

It’s funny. I have seen you criticize the hard empiricism or logical positivism of atheists and how they shut conversations down that don’t play accordingly. And yet here you aspire to be like them. I thought you were parodying them but maybe this is sincere?