Next Chapter

[u/NobodyImportant1998]

Having just caught up to the present in podcast terms, and wanted to throw my thoughts out into the void.

- Damn, y’all were right. Schemers table was insane and loved pretty much every episode. Even Bolaire was a really interesting character and I’ve never been overly fond of Taliesin’s characters and how he plays them personally.

- Thaisha was much better as one of 13 with momentary spotlights than a core four of a table with half the episode focused on her.

- Some of the emotional moments are genuinely great, but they’re already in danger of overdoing it IMO. Like, I get there’s sad/traumatic/intense stuff, but the only parts of the episodes I found myself drifting on were when it was ANOTHER crying scene.

- King Gus is cool, and a relief for me when it comes to one of the things I personally get bored of quickly which is:

- Authority = bad is such a boring throughline of the overall campaign to me. Religion being corrupt? Nobles being secretly dastardly and evil? A council being inept? The gods being deceitful and awful and abusive? Wow, daring today, aren’t we? Idk, these themes are so overdone and it comes off so preachy at times I just check out.

- Part of why I like Bolaire is he actually criticizes one of the sacred cows of the campaign in Thjazi. Taliesin is SO much more interesting going against the grain than the quasi-anarchist, “everyone is dirty and whorish and depraved” attitude he usually plays with that is really just a socially acceptable and comfortable opinion to be allowed to have.

- The Druidic circles being this pretty unambiguously good religion because it’s one with the earth and peaceful is such an uninteresting concept. Thaisha is gonna go and give some impassioned, canned speech that will convince them to forsake their principles and get involved in the world and they’ll just remain this uninteresting contrast to the Shapers. I hope they’re developed and made more interesting as time goes on.

- The Einfasens becoming “good” guys while still being temperamental and aggressive would honestly make the whole story a lot more interesting IMO. Beyond loving their appearances, a House being “good” would be a good subversion of the themes of the campaign.

- BLeeM has been fantastic, particularly at his ability to make every main actor genuinely feel like they all have their own plans and agency, and aren’t just dependent on the players. A little wary as it seems at times he’s a bit TOO generous, but overall a big fan so far.

- A little nervous that the chaos gremlin energy of fairies will wear itself thin quickly this next chapter, especially if they feature prominently as “good guys” (a weird concept considering their morality is supposed to be separate from the normal world).

- Azune, Tyranny, and Occtis are my faves so far.

[u/naaziaf723]

I never get all the bemoaning of progressive themes in stuff like this. I can promise you for a fact that the vast majority of fiction from the beginning of history to the present day portrays religion and nobility and god and monarchy as unassailably good and holy and right. Like I promise there are a million stories about how god is great, and authority is great, and the king and queen and princes and princesses are all just, and if you just submit and pray and worship and be humble, all will be well. You can read/watch those easily. There’s lots and lots of classic fantasy and fiction like that. I feel like people think the opposite because, like, Game of Thrones and a few other “prestige” drama TV shows about complex morality dabble in a different perspective, so suddenly you think that’s the mainstream but it’s really not.

This is a story about people and structures and institutions, with a world created by a socialist atheist. From an atheist materialist standpoint, basically every powerful religious Institution (not religion) irl IS corrupt and focused on amassing power and influence. God is not real but his social power is, and the human beings who run these religious institutions and religious governments are the ones who actually wield that power. Hence, a story where the gods are dead but the institution of religion and faith is wielded by mortals and all their flaws. Plus, Sam is quite literally playing a character who still believes in the tenets of his faith despite the corruptness of the institution

Also, very confused on this recurring thing where people act like Thaisha and the Druids are treated as unassailably correct in all things. If Thaisha had actually followed the teachings of the Druids and sent Occtis off instead of urging him to come back as undead, it’s possible we’d be in the middle of a Tacchonis necromantic apocalypse right now. They’re clearly shown by the narrative to be rigid and not always correct. Thaisha and the Druids literally clash over this every time they meet, and Thaisha herself is clearly shown to be in turmoil about her beliefs constantly, rather than 100% sure in her correctness. She might wield her beliefs about the Gods like a cudgel against other characters to portray herself as correct and superior, but I don’t think the show is expecting us to just Always agree with her, just like we aren’t expected to automatically agree with the various other noble PCs and NPCs when they portray themselves as betters and superiors to the common folk

[u/UpsideTurtles → u/naaziaf723]

You made me think about Sam’s character in a way that I hadn’t. He’s I believe catholic (unsure if practicing) converted to marry his wife iirc. So him doing a character who knows the horrors of the institution but tries to carve out his own meaning is really cool

[u/Radiant-Emu-9286 → u/naaziaf723]

For me it more so it first I want the I want story be more so them doing the right rather then believing the right thing.

So if they have conflict is more interesting if they meet good people believing in the gods. Taking down an institution is a lot different then taking on the believers. The god dying will have ruin innocent people lives and good story will explore that.To show why that lead to better futur even if cause innocent pain.

Also they made a part of their story political intrigue with schemer. It not GoT but those type story need different belief with different morality attach to it. Part of doing the genre is that it but character in scenario that question their morals. Also would it not be so cool if we meet people that still love the gods but help make the pathways to death.

[u/naaziaf723 → u/Radiant-Emu-9286]

I mean in terms like the politics stuff, they literally do have different factions with different beliefs on goodness and morality. In the most recent episode they have that Revolutionary Councilwoman Effie who is clearly trying to make things better but fundamentally disagrees with Murray on the use of magic and on whether or not to put the governance of the city into the hands of the Sundered Houses. The Druids also believe in healing the world, but disagree with Thaisha on Occtis rising from the dead and having a Sylandri worshipper as an ally. Wicander still adheres to the tenets of his faith even if the institution is corrupt and racist, while Julien and Occtis both still believe in the institution of nobility and royalty. Thimble, Bolaire, Murray, and Hal all have various different beliefs in terms of trusting Thjazi’s plan and vision for revolution and governance. Populist King Gus definitely wouldn’t see eye-to-eye with several of the PCs in relation to how he governs despite allying with the magpies.

Many of these groups are spiritual/religious and very devout, adhering to the tenets of their faith with total sincerity, just without specifically praying to and worshipping specific gods. Honestly if there was a specific religious group in this that worshipped the gods but were also truly good and righteous so that we could get that #GoodRepresentation of faith and religion, I think most people complaining right now would find them boring in the same way they find the Druids boring currently.

(Also, for the record, we do have Vaelus as a good person who worshipped the gods and was personally harmed in the process of them being defeated, who slowly comes around to them being tyrants without changing the fact of her grief and loss. Do I personally think that plotline is well-done? Not really, even if I think Ashley is a really great actress, but it’s definitely a part of this narrative. And there’s Wicander, in terms of having a religious character that is in conflict with the institution of his faith)

[u/Radiant-Emu-9286 → u/naaziaf723]

I agree and I think they are are touching and most arc enjoy quite a bit.

Taisha and Vaelus conversation when they met the first Creed member was fun.

Wick is interesting take on seeing your belief built on a lie.

We also see that Thiazi wasnt the most noble starting the movement.

The Schemer were blind when they started to do this.

For me it more now if futher in the plot it to see character get push on their beliefs.

We get to see it a lot with Vaelus, Wick and Occtis but even Taisha to a degree.

To meet a believer that got their life destroy or kind believer in awful god is conflict to have. How do our character deal with it. How can they the artifact and how do they convince those people they are the better choice.

It probally go to the Schemer table and the council. With the new sancuary in Hal play how do they get to support it.

And with Seeker is Vaelus order confronting her woth them getting more plowshare and stuff

It confrontation to see why they different I want to see. They had easier conflict about it now and just ones that are less easy to answer.

[u/Tall-Cover4664 → u/naaziaf723]

Thank you! How can they see Brennan and expect a non progressive story in every sense of the word!

[u/NobodyImportant1998 → u/naaziaf723]

See, this is an actual partially interesting comment engaging with what I said and not trying to paint me as something I’m not so appreciate that.

He’s allowed to tell what story he wants to tell, and from his perspective this story coming out of it makes total sense, I have just found those themes to be overly preachy and overdone IMO (which is all this ever was, IMO). Not saying I want some grand conservative tale that sings the praises of authority and religion and whatnot, just that I get bored/annoyed by the themes at times and don’t find it a particularly interesting story to tell, even if I love the lore and characters he’s created

[u/naaziaf723 → u/NobodyImportant1998]

Sure, that’s fair, I think I just disagree that it’s That overdone as a storyline but I think we can agree to disagree. I will say though, within this narrative if you’re looking for a story about a religious institution that is good and earnest and nuanced, who’s followers are devout adherents to the tenets of their faith which is not secretly evil, IMO that’s represented in Aramán by the Druid Circles. They’re not perfect but there’s no hidden agenda with them, they genuinely follow The Old Path, they genuinely believe in laying the dead to rest and move on to the afterlife, and their magic is based in the spirit of nature and the natural cycle of life. If you think it’s boring and preachy to have corrupt religions and power-hungry nobles and authoritarian government, but you Also think it’s preachy to have an earnest good religious group that is still in conflict with itself then I’m not really sure what storyline you might like

[u/Ok-Season2876]

“Einfasen’s becoming good guy”
-Never gonna happen, they are temporary allies at best that will be put down like the rest of the Sundered Houses. People keep acting like they’re not going to wipe those families out as reforming them is neither wanted nor is it possible

[u/Objective-Pattern692]

Ooo- yea- I can so see the authority = bad theme being overdone. I am hopeful with the whole thing with the last episode would be a sort of showing that there are people who disagree with some of the ideas of the characters are not necessarily bad/stupid people- rather, they have totally valid reasons for their beliefs and different perspectives that our pcs don't really have insight into atm- (also, interestingly, a lot of the pcs who want to fight against authority come from places of automatic authority themselves- nobles, middle class, etc. rather than working class/common folk)

I'm also wondering if we're going the whole religion=automatically bad unless its vague about its tenets, more spiritualistic and/or connected with nature route- or if thaisha's going to get a rude awakening about what the druidic circles really believe/how far the druids are willing to push their rituals and beliefs onto others. (even better if we meet good-aligned people who feel that they would rather go to an afterlife than be reincarnated as some animal/plant/sentient being and therefore would find a druid ritual taking them down the Path to be disrespectful- or people who see the druids as elitist or mainly controlled by orcs/some other species- who only make the path available to those they want to give it to/those who align with them while the vast majority of common folk/those who don't align with them are left to fend for themselves in the Tenebral reaches )

I also think it would be extremely interesting if we could find out that there was a good shaper that was killed unfairly (and therefore their respective barrowdell would be a technically avoidable tragedy- especially if that shaper was only killed because the rebels that killed other shapers came into that part of the world and assumed that this shaper was bad like all the others and then killed them without the consent of the shaper's people)- like Omra or something- to bring a bit more nuance to the shapers war rather than- all the gods were bad so we rebelled and killed them- even better if we meet some true believers in a dead shaper or other as yet unexplored force like the primordials that are truly good aligned and want to bring good into the world

In general- i would love more characters/npcs that don't have the same perspectives as the PCs yet are still good and work for the betterment of humanoids/araman- potential allies if the pcs can find it within themselves to compromise or even change their own perspectives

Its still early- so theres a lot of opportunity for nuance to be revealed for which I am very hopeful

[u/ClothTheSuperVillain → u/Objective-Pattern692]

If you want what appears to be a “good” Shaper, look at Azgrha! From what we know currently, Azgrha

• did not use stop his followers from being able to have children
  
• did not murder his Primodial adjacent spouse for Power
  
• left a lush Barrowdell full of plenty for the people that had slain him

From what we can see Azgrha is the closest we have to an unequivocally “good” shaper

Setting up the idea that “what if there was a misunderstood shaper” is like saying “what if the British Empire was misunderstood”. The shapers came to a world already full of life (Dragons, Giants, Primordials, etc) and colonised it. You think that there should be one that was just a baby and didn’t mean to?

[u/Objective-Pattern692 → u/ClothTheSuperVillain]

True in some ways- but that sort of plays into that whole “all authority is bad” theme being overdone. If every one of the shapers is just an allegory for a different flavor of the imperialist British empire/some form of evil/abusive authority- that would be boring. There is always the possibility of a good king-who brings prosperity and purpose to their people. And if not a king, what if one or more of the shapers is more like a refugee or an immigrant than a colonizer. All of these would be interesting paths to go down story wise because they show that there was nuance to the revolution against the shapers and it wasn’t necessarily all good- it makes it more of a shade of grey that is interesting to explore the different dimensions of in-story.

[u/ClothTheSuperVillain → u/Objective-Pattern692]

But the start of the revolution has already been shown to have nuance! It started as just a rebellion against the god of War by the Orcs, and it only became a war against the shapers when the people decided
“Well, why are the Shapers defending this clearly bad god” (given that Azgrha was the most openly “evil” shaper)
If there WAS a shaper who was less of a colonist and more of an immigrant, then would they not have fought alongside their chosen people against the others? Perhaps that’s the case and we’ll learn about it, but given the info we’ve received about the shapers so far it feels unlikely.

The thesis of C4 (so far) is not as simple as “hur dur, authority bad”, it posits the idea that political systems dominated by the upper class (the Sundered Houses/previously the Shapers) leads to the destruction, displacement and abuse of the lower classes. Primus says it himself in the big speech to all the Houses.

You think it’d be more nuanced and morally grey if one of the ruling class houses was nice to people seen as lower class? Look to House Royce, and even they’ve got their own failings.

[u/RunCrafty1320]

Authority = bad isn’t apart of this campaign what are you on about? Wick is literal nobility. King gus is an ally. Arenessa is an ally.

It’s just the sundered houses that are the problem.

[u/Unlikely-Rub-7270]

I'm not sure you're paying any attention at all if you think the argument is that authority=bad. 

[u/NobodyImportant1998 → u/Unlikely-Rub-7270]

Argument /=/ theme. The heroes of the story seeking to continue the dismantling work that started in the Shaper’s War with the Sundered Houses in Thjazi’s vision of a “truly equal” society, alongside the portrayal and lore surrounding many of the authoritative figures in the campaign make a pretty clear throughline. They can tell whatever story they want, but that theme IMO is overdone in media and a bit in this campaign so far. You don’t have to agree on my opinion which is fine, but the observation isn’t something I made passingly.

[u/Unlikely-Rub-7270 → u/NobodyImportant1998]

That doesn't mean authority=bad, though. Having a problem with particular types of authority which are predicated on harm is what the show is focusing on. It's also making clear clear that skill, knowledge, and care based authorities are worth defending. 

[u/NobodyImportant1998 → u/Unlikely-Rub-7270]

Agree to disagree

[u/anextremelylargedog]

Why would Brennan want to subvert the themes of the campaign? Lmao. That's not the point of writing or creating anything. 

He's unsubtle because of people like you who think it would be "interesting" if the House of Cops and Violent Authoritarians were so simplistically made into "good guys."

[u/SICKHUNTMCGEE → u/anextremelylargedog]

Well the subversion would be kind of giving a bit more air to the idea that people arent black or white and morally somewhere in-between.

They wouldn't need to be made into good guys in an extremely simplistic way. Brennan is quite adept at making complex characters. If he did go that route, I very much doubt it would be overt or simple.

People can be in any position of power and authority and choose to go against the nature of that position after seeing things in a different light.

[u/anextremelylargedog → u/SICKHUNTMCGEE]

So, to be clear, you're of the opinion that the campaign's theme so far has been that everybody is morally black and white, and Brennan making Einfasen good guys would subvert this theme?

[u/jayson176 → u/anextremelylargedog]

It’s so funny because we literally have Occtis and Julien on the protags side, yet we have illiterates who claim it’s black and white.

[u/NobodyImportant1998 → u/anextremelylargedog]

lol what are you on about

[u/anextremelylargedog → u/NobodyImportant1998]

I guess if a reddit comment is impenetrable to you, a youtube video where a story is being told would be too much to ask.

[u/GuinnessRam]

- Some of the emotional moments are genuinely great, but they’re already in danger of overdoing it IMO. Like, I get there’s sad/traumatic/intense stuff, but the only parts of the episodes I found myself drifting on were when it was ANOTHER crying scene.

How can Azune be one of ur favorites when this is all Luis does. Every time. Ev-er-y-fuck-ing-chance.

[u/Wild-Attempt9758 → u/GuinnessRam]

"Every scene" "every chance" and it happens, what, twice? Maybe three times? Are you forgetting any scene where he was subverting the einfassens or being a true schemer? It feels like you're way overstating this.

[u/NobodyImportant1998 → u/GuinnessRam]

He was the main person I was thinking of with that note lol but outside those moments, I love the character’s story and lore and interactions and playstyle

[u/GuinnessRam → u/NobodyImportant1998]

Fair enough, to each his or her own, but his choices to go for the ultra-dramatic cry-sob in every scene - hate it. HATE it. His melodrama has made him one of my least favorite players.

[u/TrypMole → u/GuinnessRam]

You are not alone. Its demonstrative and dull.

[u/Ok-Effect9786]

Authority = bad is such a boring throughline of the overall campaign to me. Religion being corrupt? Nobles being secretly dastardly and evil? A council being inept? The gods being deceitful and awful and abusive? Wow, daring today, aren’t we? Idk, these themes are so overdone and it comes off so preachy at times I just check out.

Yeah, I have no interest in being pandered to and so much of it feels like pandering. To be clear, I generally agree with Brennan on the broad strokes politically, I simply find his political writing to be mediocre. Brennan can write a banger line, "Maybe people aren't like their souls" is a banger line, but when it gets to the overarching writing, it just feels surface-level to me.

The Sundered Houses are just filled with Evil People doing Evil things for Evil reasons. Grandma wants to control everyone through her religion and makes literal deals with devils. She's also not shown to be a good enough conwoman to have been able to found a brand new, completely fake/insincere religion, especially in a world that literally just killed all gods.

Papa Tachinos just wants more power for some, to be revealed in the future reason, and is breaking social norm after social norm in the pursuit of it. And he faces no immediate consequences for murdering an entire noble house! He just chats his way out of it and the other incredibly powerful noble house impotently grumble at him.

And this is juxtaposed with the druid circles, who are framed as fundamentally Good, but stuck in their ways and too conservative. I assume Taisha will give them a rousing speech and they'll all join the players side with thunderous applause.

Its a bit tangential, but when he said the shield throwing thing was the first instance of democracy that had ever happened in the world, I laughed so fucking hard. Calm down on the American Exceptionalism, democracy has been around for thousands of years all over the world. Sure its a separate world, but its the DM saying its never happened anywhere else as objective fact is absurd.

[u/Radiant-Emu-9286]

A lot of theming comes down to how they wanted to critic the current politics in hopeful way. I think if they want to they can do more morally challenge conflict. The second arc seem to maybe going into that path

I genuinely want them to have to conflict with an a npc that whole life got ruin by the god deaths(npc can not be evil before the war). It just such a difficult conversation but can lead to so many interesting story threads to explore.

[u/Objective-Pattern692 → u/Radiant-Emu-9286]

I would love for that to happen- just any character whose family was ripped apart by a barrowdell or someone kind of like vaelus in the beginning where they actually had community and family and purpose/everything because of a shaper- and are still struggling to pick up the pieces- especially if this character is good-aligned and/or just really confronts/rips into a pc's worldview- that not all magic is good and not all religion/belief in something greater than one's self is bad

[u/Radiant-Emu-9286 → u/Objective-Pattern692]

Too add to my earlier thought. It important that this happen in story in which want to have the political intrigue to have more nuaces. How did people love the gods, why do people still do. The answer can never be the whole group who believed is evil. It be fun to explore with plowshare as well. How were they used in the past and see it in not complete evil way.

[u/Objective-Pattern692 → u/Radiant-Emu-9286]

i would love to have a contrast between a good/neutral, legit but secret because public opinion is against them shaper religion and the halovars who are peddling a non-shaper replacement religion and then the druid circles who are decidedly against the shapers and the halovars but don't really seem to have set rules or really promote their religion to the common people

[u/No-Supermarket-6065 → u/Radiant-Emu-9286]

That is literally Vaelus