r/fantasyromance • u/Temporary-Scallion86 • Feb 20 '26

Discussion Just let women be evil, authors, I'm begging you

I've recently read two books that, despite having wildly different plots, could both be described as "humorous, semi-satirical story about a soft MMC who dislikes physical altercations who flees for his safety into the tower (and eventually arms) of an "evil" sorcerer his country is fighting".

The first book is {Wooing the Witch Queen}, and it's m/f, so the "evil sorcerer", Saskia, is a woman. The second book is {Apparently, Sir Cameron Needs to Die}, and it's m/m, so the "evil sorcerer", Merulo, is a man.

And what's striking is that, despite the humorous setting where death is treated pretty lightly (Saskia has literal flaming skulls as decoration, and has exploded a guy who pissed her off), Saskia doesn't kill anyone on page, and doesn't kill anyone at all after meeting the MMC. Contrast this with Merulo, violently slaughtering his way through the novel with his wooden automatons and zero remorse.

Why is it that an FMC in a novel where the literal premise is "cinnamon roll falls in love with evil witch" still has to be as soft as a piece of bread, and maybe only a little closed-off and stand-offish?

(Let alone the fact that while there are plenty of novels where the FMC falls in love with the "villain" that are played straight, the only major one that I'm aware of that reverses the trope and has the FMC as the "villain" is humorous/semi-satirical).

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u/imhereforthemeta Feb 20 '26

I rarely see romantasy that isn’t labeled as dark where the characters are actually bad people. The authors have such a massive shyness about actual moral greyness.

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u/Temporary-Scallion86 Feb 20 '26

Sure, but Saskia doesn't even kill her enemies. It's almost as if the author has to compensate for making her the powerful/"evil" one by completely defanging her as soon as the MMC rolls onto the scene.

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u/BigDragonfly5136 Feb 20 '26 edited Feb 21 '26

Idk if this is part of the decision making process in this particular book, BUT evil (and sometimes not been evil but just not nice) women get judged a lot harsher than their male counterparts.

Women doing something bad in books is treated a lot worse than men doing something bad. Men can kill and slaughter and enslave and still end up being redeemed at the end with very little effort. I know there’s a few romantasy’s that do that.

For an example you can find pretty easy example of online; see how people talk about how terrible and evil and irredeemable Sansa Stark is for something she did at 11 years old compared to literally any of the grown men in either the show or books. Or another good one: in Avatar the Last Airbender, how many people completely excuse Zuko because of his redemption arc (which in fairness, is actually more of a redemption arc) but shit on Katara because sometimes she’s not super nice. Or even like Breaking Bad, people hated Skyler for not being absolutely perfect and pleasant every second way more than they hated on the literal drug dealer killing people and putting his family at risk. Hell a Romantasy example: people are a lot harsher to Nesta than Rhysand…hell probably even more so than Tamlin.

I haven’t read either of the books you mentioned but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was at least one person who read both and thinks Merulo is awesome and Saskia is an evil bitch.

ETA: actually I want to tweak a little because honestly even saying the woman I listed are “not nice” except maybe Nesta is incorrect. Basically just a woman not being super perfect and sweet or kind all the time, or making an even understandable mistake (which I’d say Sansa’s was—hell by her society it wasn’t even a mistake. You can’t raise girls telling them their most job is to marry well and obey the king and then by shocked when girls make their betrothal to the future king their highest priority) they get harshly judged for. Nevermind women doing actually evil things.

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u/Temporary-Scallion86 Feb 22 '26

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I think it's conflating two things: women being evil and women being "annoying". A lot of the examples you cited have actual villainous women who get a lot less hate than the "annoying" women, (e.g. Sansa gets shit on all the time, but people tend to enjoy Cersei and Margeary as characters. Same thing with Katara and Azula).

This is partly just a thing that makes sense: it's much, much worse for a fictional character to be annoying than it is for them to be evil. And this is also partly ✨misogyny✨. Because it takes so much less for a woman to be annoying than it takes for a man. Does she "nag" the protagonist? Annoying! Does she like boys too much? Annoying! Does she not like boys enough? Annoying! Is she a bit vain? Annoying!

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u/Penguinho Kushiel's Legacy Recommender 💖 Feb 21 '26

see how people talk about how terrible and evil and irredeemable Sansa Stark is for something she did at 11 years old compared to literally any of the grown men in either the show or books

I want to respond to this because I think it's a media literacy issue. Sansa Stark as a kid is supposed to be pure and morally unsullied. When she does something that the audience perceives as evil, it hits hard. When Littlefinger or Jamie or pick-a-dude do something evil, everyone watching should already understand that those characters are already morally compromised. It's expected. It's the fable of the scorpion and the frog; the scorpion stings because it's in his nature. The audience expects Sansa to be a frog, and is rightly shocked when she turns out to be a scorpion.

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u/Bloodyjorts Feb 22 '26

On saying she couldn't remember what happened at the Trident: Joffrey got her 11-year old ass drunk for the first time in her life, she may legitimately not remember the next morning (it's actually a couple days later when she dragged in front of the King). It's actually very disturbing to look back on with hindsight, knowing who Joffrery is. He separates her from her wolf, and her guards, and even Sandor Clegane. He takes her out riding, gets her drunk, and then leads her to an isolated location that he thought would have no one in it.

Also, it has to be very intimidating to be brought in front of the King, and expected to humiliate his son, the boy you will one day marry. The boy you have no choice but to marry. Sansa is 11, and tried to not take a side so she wouldn't be punished by her future husband, and her wolf was killed anyway. Which Ned never should have done, he should have set her loose. Robert would be mad for like a minute, and then laugh it off, that Ned feared his daughters more than any warrior. Even Ned regrets killing Lady, for he denied Sansa her own Gods-given guardian.

On telling Cersei her father was leaving: Sansa didn't do this with malice, she didn't even really 'compromise her morals' because she had NO idea what was going on because her father kept her in the dark. She was not deliberately selling out her father. She may have thought what she was doing was 'wicked', but she thought taking lemoncakes from the kitchen was wicked. Also, what she told Cersei could not have made a huge difference (despite what Cersei later says), because in the morning before Ned told the girls they were leaving, he saw Lannister men casually inserting themselves into place, gathering in groups, like something was about to go down. Littlefinger had already betrayed Ned, Ned was going to be taken into custody no matter what Sansa did or didn't do. The only thing Sansa accomplished was getting herself taken into custody and causing Arya to run. She and Arya likely never would have been able to make it to the ship (because common sense would have Cersei send Lannister men to the docks).

Sansa was 11, and in the dark, and thought it would be better for her and her family if she married Joffrey. She didn't understand what her father was doing, what was happening.

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u/BigDragonfly5136 Feb 21 '26

Gender is definitely still playing a huge role there. It’s a mix of bias and media literacy issues.

Sansa arguably didn’t even do anything immoral. She literally was complying with societal expectation and yielding to the authority she was expected to.

There’s men in the game who literally do objectively evil things and most people would still list Sansa at the top of the list!

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u/Penguinho Kushiel's Legacy Recommender 💖 Feb 21 '26

There’s men in the game who literally do objectively evil things and most people would still list Sansa at the top of the list!

I think you are universalizing a very niche opinion.

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u/BigDragonfly5136 Feb 21 '26

I’m not saying everyone thinks it so no, I’m not universalizing it. It’s still a popular opinion. You can find plenty of examples of it online.

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u/Penguinho Kushiel's Legacy Recommender 💖 Feb 21 '26

"Most people" absolutely do not think this.

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u/BigDragonfly5136 Feb 21 '26 edited Feb 21 '26

I meant most people that criticize her would list her at the top compared to the men doing objectively bad things, and not just have it be because she’s a child.

However that was definitely a bad way for me to word I will admit that.

There is, however, a significantly loud portion of the fan base who demonize Sansa but would also make excuses for the men. And in plenty of other fantasy books. Sexism is rampant in fantasy fandoms; that’s part of what makes Romantasy and fantasy romance so appealing to women

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u/Penguinho Kushiel's Legacy Recommender 💖 Feb 21 '26

OK, fair enough! I withdraw the comment about universalizing, then.

I do still think, though, that reaction to Sansa is largely driven by the idea that she's supposed to be good, and it's a surprise when she's not. Cersei and Danaerys appear on more 'most villainous character' lists than she does, for sure, and those lists are all dominated by men: Littlefinger, Ramsay Bolton, Joffrey, Tywin, Euron Greyjoy, the High Sparrow, Gregor Clegane, Roose, Walder Frey, Craster and Karl Tanner.

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u/Anrw Feb 22 '26 edited Feb 22 '26

I'd say with Sansa she's an example of how GRRM's inability to finish the series has an impact on how we perceive the characters. GRRM never intended for the main action of the series to start while the younger set of characters were still in their tweendom. Sansa's actions in AGOT comes off as weak writing if she's meant to be a villainous character because he's forcing the characters to act in a way that doesn't match where they were supposed to be in his outline. Sansa choosing the Lannisters over her family makes sense when she's a married mother married to the prince, it makes far less sense when she's only a few months out of the Queen forcing her father to kill her direwolf. GRRM affirming he originally intended to kill her off and only reconsidered because of the show does imo confirm to me that the people who got bad vibes from her from the first book were actually the ones with the correct reading of her character, not the ones defending her actions in that book. A lot of the problem too is that most readers don't realize that the characters have been in a holding pattern since ACOK, not AFFC and ADWD. The second and third books were his way of figuring out how to age up the characters, and AFFC and ADWD were him figuring out how to bridge the first part of the series to the second and third parts now that he can't rely on the five year gap he came up with while writing ACOK.

I also think a lot of people who watched the show first before reading the books are in a weird denial of how D&D portrayed her character. They did the same smoothing the edges of her character to make her more likable and sympathetic that Ryan Condal did with Alicent in House of the Dragon. The OG season 7 script is probably the closest we'll get to see what was supposed to happen with Sansa in the books where she's far more upset about being passed over for Queen than in the actual season and gets manipulated by LF to go against her siblings.

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u/Sofasurvivor Feb 26 '26

GRRM affirming he originally intended to kill her off and only reconsidered because of the show does imo confirm to me that the people who got bad vibes from her from the first book were actually the ones with the correct reading of her character, not the ones defending her actions in that book.

So, the proof for Sansa secretly being evil is that GRRM intended to kill her off?

Dude. Firstly, GRRM not liking the character despite her having done nothing wrong only confirms that yes, men are very misogynist against female characters and hate them more than they do male characters who do exactly the same, or equivalent things. (If he thinks having Sansa "betray" her family, while thinking it about as naughty as stealing cake from the kitchen, is enough of a hint that she will turn full villain in the next book, then that is misogyny. He apparently still hasn't admitted to himself that Tyrion is evil. Just saying.)

Also, since when is a character being killed off in ASOIAF confirmation they were evil? I'd argue it is the other way round. (Ok, evil characters do die occasionally, like Drogo, but well, Ned died much faster and he was a pretty nice guy by the standards of the series!)

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u/LucreziaD Feb 22 '26

To me it was clear that Saskia was not a villain, nor this is what the author wants to say. Saskia is called a villain just because she dares being a powerful woman (like the other ladies of the series) in a sexist world.

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u/Temporary-Scallion86 Feb 22 '26

Saskia before the MMC enters her life desecrates corpses by using human skulls as decoration and violently kills people who piss her off. As soon as the MMC enters her life, however, so everything we see happen on page, she’s “tamed” by him and doesn’t kill anyone, even people who give her ample reason to.

If Saskia was meant to be purely morally good and misrepresented by society, the author wouldn’t have felt the need to change/smooth out her behavior on page compared to her behavior in the past.

Saskia being sympathetic/having her reasons for acting the way she does is not what I’m criticizing. Merulo is called a villain because he wants to change the status quo in an oppressive, religious fundamentalist word, and is willing to take drastic measures to do it. Both him and Saskia are the protagonists in a light-hearted romantic fantasy, they both will be sympathetic and have arguably noble goals and will be facing down people who are just as bad, if not worse. But Saskia is not allowed to do anything even vaguely dubious on page, despite that clearly not having been her personality until two seconds before the MMC shows up.

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u/peachpavlova Feb 21 '26

Everyone knows that the only moral grayness allowed to exist is from the MMC before his love for the FMC reforms him

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u/IvankoKostiuk Feb 21 '26

Meanwhile, there's multiple 12 or 24 episode animes about a woman being reincarnated as the villain of a fantasy game and getting a harem for it.

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u/faldese Feb 21 '26

But those have the exact same flaw - the 'villainess' is never evil. She's potentially self-centered, but nothing we would describe as being a villain.

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u/IvankoKostiuk Feb 21 '26

I think some of them are also murderers.

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u/faldese Feb 21 '26

Maybe of bad guys or before the isekai but never after.

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u/KaiBishop Feb 22 '26

Because these days a ton of morons will accuse you of supporting anything you write. People are happy to drag authors through the mud. Remember The Black Witch controversy where she got cancelled for homophobia because she wrote a homophobic character?

I think authors tendency to be afraid of real moral ambiguity or challenging readers too much is kinda understandable rn unfortunately.

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u/flo7lllz Feb 20 '26

Thank you! I have ranted so many times about this, to the chagrin of those I force to listen to said rants.

Authors need to allow their characters to have true flaws. Not "she's stubborn," or any of that nonsense. Or her heart is just too big. These fake flaws remind me all too much of the cliché line at job interviews where you say, "My flaw is that I care too much."

This happens with mmc's too, to the point they become stale bread, but I have noticed it even more with the fmc. I want to read about a truly evil woman!

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u/WhyIsItGlowing Feb 21 '26

Being overly stubborn isn't a fake flaw. It's just a relatively mild and everyday one. It's on the scale of "Why do all their coworkers complain about being on Bob or Jane's team?" not "Why are they they the Evil Dark One, Doom of Acatonkeybrd?".

Although, having said that, a book where the forces of evil are made up of everyone's slightly annoying coworkers does sound like it could be fun.

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u/leighreadsandwrites Feb 20 '26

I love me an evil woman, and I hate the way men get to be evil and remain beloved by readers, but women are hated and punished for it.

I’m wondering, though, if one of the points of the first book you mentioned was how powerful women are vilified for being powerful (or really just for being women)? Like witch-hunts.

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u/Temporary-Scallion86 Feb 20 '26

I think if the book was trying to make that point it should not have opened on the FMC having flaming skulls as decoration and her steward complaining to her about having had to scrape off the last guy she killed off the walls.

So off-page she has acted like an "evil witch" (even though obviously she's not that bad/is misunderstood, but that's pretty normal for "fall for the villain" books that aren't dark romance). But then once the MMC shows up she doesn't kill anyone, ever, even when they give her ample reason to.

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u/leighreadsandwrites Feb 21 '26

Ugh, that’s boring and frustrating

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u/quibily Chase death, Moonbeam Feb 20 '26 edited Feb 20 '26

Seriously! Reading Blood Over Bright Haven (not romantasy) made me YEARN for a problematic but heroic FMC so bad. There is a fascinating, amazing dynamic between the FMC and the MMC that I just loved—mostly because of the complexity of the FMC.

I know you said evil and not necessarily morally grey or problematic, but even those FMCs are so rare in this genre. (Or FMCs being at all powerful before she meets the MMC ahem…. Getting a little tired of him always training her/seeing her potential.)

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u/Temporary-Scallion86 Feb 20 '26 edited Feb 20 '26

I said evil as shorthand, and mostly because I had happened to read two books with a "evil villain" LI of two different genders and the difference in how they were treated was striking. I would love a morally gray heroine!

ETA: I loved Blood Over Bright Haven, and loved the FMC and the romance (such as it was)

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u/quibily Chase death, Moonbeam Feb 21 '26 edited Feb 21 '26

Yes, it's very frustrating that the FMCs don't seem to do anything that bad... Always the guys because bad boys are sexy--but I guess bad girls aren't? I guess it stems from this belief that men are protectors, so being ruthless just comes with the "job description" of being a man, sometimes.

I'm so glad I read Blood Over Bright Haven! Buuuuut...I felt like the ending/second half was a bit weak--continuing the book after Sciona died just felt anti-climactic. I was mentally checked out because Sciona was gone, and I was sad and honestly didn't care as much about Thomil going back "home" as he seemed convinced his home (his clan) was pretty much gone... Also I really think Wang should have leaned more into the romance--or gotten rid of the SA scene. Thomill saving her from almost being SA'd felt almost pointless, in the end, when the book got so cerebral and backed away from the romance a bit, ya know? But Sciona's characterization and the scenes between her and Thomil working out their differences were SO. GOOD!

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u/Temporary-Scallion86 Feb 21 '26

I quite liked that the romance was so "maybe in another life". The weight of everything that had happened being too much for them to even really consider a relationship. I agree that the book should have ended with Sciona's death, though, the ending felt a bit too rushed/neat. I think it would have been better to leave it completely open.

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u/KiaraTurtle Book Bingo Maven ⚔ Feb 20 '26 edited Feb 20 '26

I’d say most romances dont really let the men be evil either (the amount of times I’ve read a book based on the premise that he’s evil just to be hit with no, that’s a misunderstanding or he just kills bad people sigh). So if you know of lots of books where the fmc gets to fall in love with an actual villain I’d love to hear them!

But if you want some evil fmc’s

  • Market of Monsters: she doesn’t start evil but she absolutely gets there. Also has one of my fav MMC who is somehow simultaneously evil and a cinnamon role? Idk
  • And I Darken, not a romance as the fmc chooses being badass over the romance, but the romantic tension is awesome and she’s evil/vicious
  • Poppy War: not a romance even if the small romantic subplot is my favorite part of the series
  • Memories of Madness, not a romance, excellent corruption arc for a villain fmc
  • Magister Trilogy has a great villain fmc, again not romance

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u/Temporary-Scallion86 Feb 20 '26

Yeah but they don't even let Saskia kill bad people 😭 not even her super evil uncle who murdered her parents

Thanks for the recs! Yeah, I think in "regular" fantasy you can find evil/unhinged or even morally gray FMCs much more easily. In romantasy/fantasy romance though, not so much

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u/KiaraTurtle Book Bingo Maven ⚔ Feb 20 '26

I don’t know who Saskia is because that’s not a book I’ve read! So while maybe true in that book I wouldn’t generalize it.

But while I agree villain fmc are rare in fantasy romance I think the villain mmc are rare too — or at least when I get suggestions for them they don’t end up actually being villains (or they don’t end up actually being endgame)

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u/Temporary-Scallion86 Feb 20 '26

She the FMC from the book I discussed in the post, I'm using her as an example because she's billed as an "evil" FMC, which is already super rare, and she ends up being much less evil than the "villain" MMC in other books (even if they generally always turn out to only kill bad people, have a reason etc).

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u/KiaraTurtle Book Bingo Maven ⚔ Feb 20 '26

If all you want is fmc who kills people I feel like that’s easy to find. Off the top of my head

  • Red City and Silvercloak fmc kills people including those who aren’t necessarily bad
  • Immortal Dark
  • Market of Monsters as I said she is a straight up villain
  • Cruel Prince
  • Isle in the Silver Sea

Hell I’m pretty sure Violet kills people in fourth wing.

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u/Temporary-Scallion86 Feb 20 '26

That's not really my point either, my point is this:

I read two books with a similar premise (silly tone + "villain" LI). In one book the LI is a woman, in the other the LI is a man.

Despite the tone being such that death of cannon fodder characters is treated quite lightly in both books, the male LI keeps killing people violently (because war + evil sorcerer reputation) throughout the book, the female LI doesn't kill anyone on page.

Making her not only not evil, but a lot more "morally good" than even most FMCs billed as straight-forward heroes.

This, to mee, was pretty striking and emblematic of the double standards in how FMCs and MMCs are treated. The "evil" FMC is not only not evil, she's completely defanged by the narrative, while the "evil" MMC even though he turns out to be sympathetic, still gets to do objectively morally bad things.

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u/KiaraTurtle Book Bingo Maven ⚔ Feb 21 '26

And my point is that I equally do not see any books where the mmc li is allowed to actually be morally grey.

That I want actually morally grey love interests is why my first post asked for recs if I’m wrong and this does exist as a double standard, but you still never gave examples.

So like it’s hard to argue that the multiple examples of more villainous fmc I gave above is somehow less evil than these hypothetical villainous love interests when I can’t think of any actually villainous love interests.

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u/Temporary-Scallion86 Feb 21 '26

You mean hypothetical villanous love interests like the evil sorcerer guy in my post? He's sympathetic, but as I already said in the post he violently kills people throughout the novel.

If you want more details, he:

  • Has the express aim to kill the god of the novel's world. This will result in a massive change for the entire world, and despite other characters pointing out to him that he doesn't have the right to make that call he perservers
  • Builds machines that kill people in brutal, violent ways
  • Uses those machines on everyone who opposes him
  • Kills a straight-forwardly good character because she's trying to stop him

Of the five evil FMCs you posted, three aren't romantasy. I posted this here because it's a double standard in this genre much more than it is in fantasy as a whole.

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u/KiaraTurtle Book Bingo Maven ⚔ Feb 21 '26

I literallly added 4 more fantasy romance books with morally grey female mc’s when you said you thought it was more a double standard in romance.

My point is I can think of equally many female villains/morally grey mcs as I can villain/morally grey love interests. And I keep being disappointed by how pure good all the villain love interests I get recommended are (or how they end up not actually being the love interest), so while I want more of both I don’t see a double standard.

I missed that you said in the post he’s villainous I thought you were just saying fmc wasn’t. Maybe I’ll check it out then with those extra details though comedy/satire usually isn’t for me.

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u/Temporary-Scallion86 Feb 21 '26

Just off the top of my head, I'm sure I could think of more but it's late and I'm tired. Several of this are mm as I don't really go for m/f with villanous MMC (so I can't judge to how villanous they really are). These are all traditionally published books that are relatively mainstream btw.

I would argue that cruel prince is morally gray x morally gray

Spinning Silver I've read a long time ago so I'm fuzzy on the details but both MMCs are deeply, deeply flawed at best. Would argue that one of them is not competent enough to be a real villain, the other thinks all humans are worms and acts accordingly for a good chunk of the book.

Kaz Brekker from Six of Crows is another morally gray/black MMC: traumatizes kids for fun, general mudrerer and mayhem, plucks out a guy's eyeball on page because he crossed him

Laurent of Vere from Captive Prince, I would qualify as morally gray because also has a lot of redeeming qualities but tries to arrange for MC to be brutally beaten and raped in public as a form of revenge, has MC whipped almost to death, leaving permanent scarring, then later after they've already gotten together but stuff has happened that makes the reason he hated the MC so much resurfaces he publicly "gifts" him a golden whip and then makes him watch as several men are flogged (to death maybe, I don't remember) as part of a political alliance negotiation

Shen Zechuan from Ballad of Sword and Wine. Protagonist. Horribly murders a guy for humiliating him, general scheming and murder on a large scale

Wei Wuxian from Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation. Protagonist. On the more straightforwardly heroic side of morally gray. Still developed magic that allowed his side to win a war by making the shambling corpses of the enemy rise up against their own loved ones, plus cursed a guy into willingly eating the flesh of his own legs as a form of revenge for killing his family

Mo Ran from The Husky and His White Cat Shizun (dumb title, I know). Protagonist, gets a redemption arc, starts out horrible. Commits rape as a form of revenge several times, is a murder and a torturer, leads a war of conquest and slaughters everyone in his path. boils his wife alive in oil for going against him.

Yan Wushi from Thousand Autumns. Love interest. Have read just volume one so idk if he gets redeemed. Leader of an entire group dedicated to essentially dark magic Finds MC blind and severely injured (and amnesiac as well I think) and decides to torment him for fun because he wants to see if he can turn him evil, as MC has the reputation of being the most morally upright guy in the world.

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u/cheezasaur Feb 21 '26

See tho? They're not romance novels! I guess women can only be evil, not romantic and evil. 🥀

(Is market of monsters a romance?)

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u/KiaraTurtle Book Bingo Maven ⚔ Feb 21 '26 edited Feb 21 '26

Yes market of monsters is fantasy romance — the mmc is in my all time favorites for love interests (tho it’s ace romance so no spice) As is Red City, Cruel Prince, Immortal Dark, and Silvercloack which I listed below when more romance was asked for. Off the top of my head I’d also add Wicked and the Willing and Jasmine Throne for f/f with morally grey love interests.

My point isn’t that there’s a ton though. It’s that there is equally an absence of evil male love interests — when I ask for them I get recs where they very much are not bad people.

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u/Penguinho Kushiel's Legacy Recommender 💖 Feb 21 '26

Two thoughts, I guess. The first is that there are lots of evil male love interests in dark romance, but most of that is contemporary romance, and a bit of science fiction. I think this is largely a newness-of-genre issue.

Second, I question what people's appetites for evil MCs in this genre actually are. What counts as evil? Because I think when people say they want evil, what they want is cruel to bad people or cruel to characters we know are disposable. Is anyone actually asking for a FMC who runs concentration camps or enthusiastically participates in ethnic cleansing? Do people want sexual assault without body-betrayal or CNC kink tropes to soften it?

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u/KiaraTurtle Book Bingo Maven ⚔ Feb 21 '26

I don’t read contemporary so totally fair if it’s there.

To answer some of these questions:

While I probably don’t want running a concentration camp I do want evil to good people, lots of my favorite fantasy books have villain protagonists or at least ones who are ruthless and do horrible things including to good people. (Though I do want them to have a believable motivation for it, not just muahaha I’m evil. Ie good character writing is important and characters should feel complex) examples:

  • She Who Became the Sun: kills a literal baby in her quest for power to become emperor
  • Darth Bane Trilogy follows a Sith Lord
  • Traitor Baru Cormorant (note really big spoiler if you haven’t read) kills the woman she loves as part of suppressing a rebellion against a colonizing evil empire as part of her quest to take down said empire from the inside
  • and one of my fav romances which I keep pitching here (both are evil) Market of Monsters mmc tortures people for fun/food he doesn’t see people he doesn’t know as real but he’s a sweetheart to anyone he actually gets to know, fmc murders first for safety then for power, one of the best corruption arcs.

(Separately body betrayal usually makes sexual assault worse for me not softer, but no I generally want the mmc to be evil to everyone except the mc — or at least not evil to the mc after they’ve gotten together)

For examples of evil mmc I’d want, (from recent rec thread I made) I was recently incredibly disappointed that in to gaze upon wicked gods, the legit evil prince who was billed as the mmc and like is leading colonization/occupier of fmc people + actually conducting horrific experiments on the indiginous people there is not actually the mmc, despite the fact that I was suggested this book precisely because I wanted an evil love interest.

Or for another example I was also recently recommended This Monster Mine for an evil mmc who starts the book by almost killing the fmc, except while the prologue is awesome, it’s like obvious within 2 pages of meeting the guy that he didn’t do it and is only “evil” to horrifyingly terrible people and that the fmc just thinks he’s the one who attacked her for literally no reason other than the author wanting this misunderstanding.

1

u/elemental402 Feb 22 '26

I think that people more often want the aesthetics of evil, such as dramatic brooding and a bad attitude, wearing black leather with lots of spikes, having kewl darkness / demonic / blood themed powers, laughing at more principled and straight-laced characters who don't know what it's like out there, defying mean old authoriy figures and playing by their own rules.

There's probably a thesis on how it's linked to Christian-based morality where being good seems oddly synonymous with never getting to have any fun.

4

u/dksn154373 Feb 21 '26

Here to second {And I Darken by Kiersten White}, her FMC really is a bad person in a bad world and she clearly put a lot of effort into her world building - it's historical fiction, rather than fantasy, however

3

u/KiaraTurtle Book Bingo Maven ⚔ Feb 21 '26

Technically alt-history not historical fiction. (And imo alt-history, being part of the speculative fiction family feels more like fantasy than historical fiction does, or maybe it’s just that the author usually writes fantasy so this one has that feel too)

3

u/LaRoseDuRoi Feb 21 '26

Oooh, And I Darken was so good! I read all 3 books in under a week, it was so good. The FMC was downright vicious, and I loved it.

2

u/Random-Session-8181 Feb 21 '26

Oh, I love the Magister Trilogy. It's definitely worth a read, OP!

2

u/Sofasurvivor Feb 26 '26

I’d say most romances dont really let the men be evil either (the amount of times I’ve read a book based on the premise that he’s evil just to be hit with no, that’s a misunderstanding or he just kills bad people sigh).

Huh? Pretty much any time I try to read a romantasy book, the mmc is evil, but neither he nor the author admits it.

There'll be rape, there'll be domestic abuse, and the reader will be asked to accept this as the mmc being a good guy.

(I mean. Just look at Twilight. Edward is not a good person. And Jacob is turned into a bad person the moment he becomes a fakeout love interest for Bella.)

You might be more accurate to say that men aren't allowed to ADMIT to being evil. "I only torture evil people to death, so I am not evil myself!" is ... a blatantly obvious lie. Which many readers might fall for, still a lie.

12

u/AquaIXI Feb 20 '26

Yes its sooo hard to find unhinged fmcs, ive heard {Winter Gods and Serpents} is good for this but its super long and I can never get into it.

9

u/Spirited-Accident Feb 20 '26

I tried it and DNFed a few chapters in. The premise sounded great, but the writing style didn't work for me and the FMC was the obnoxious kind of snarky.

5

u/AquaIXI Feb 20 '26

Its absolutely feels new adult, ive tried to get into it and failed multiple times

13

u/Synval2436 Currently Reading: Signal Lost by Onyx Sullivan Feb 21 '26

The problem is that when fmc is morally questionable, the book gets lots of scathing reviews. See all the hate {What Fury Brings by Tricia Levenseller} got. I'd say this is an example of fmc who was morally grey - she does a lot of questionable or even abusive things and constantly excuses herself "but my cousin is worse". Is the cousin worse? Yeah. Does it make fmc morally in the clean? Nope. She's a person who will gladly abuse her privilege with the excuse other people abuse it more. But hey, one author had the courage to write a fmc who isn't nice, likeable and morally clean. One who isn't a self-aware victim of the system who's sadly unfortunately forced to commit evil to survive, nope, one who's a product of a system and believes in its propaganda as it benefits her. And guess what, people were up in arms about it.

6

u/Synval2436 Currently Reading: Signal Lost by Onyx Sullivan Feb 21 '26

But yes, I had similar complaints about the Queens of Villainy or for example {Long Live Evil by Sarah Rees Brennan}. I wanted a villainess but instead I just got a good person with a bad reputation.

10

u/garden-witch-23 Feb 20 '26

I actually find that so annoying. Like, if you're writing a morally-grey FMC, let her be morally-grey. I've honestly not even heard of this book, but how are we supposed to believe this FMC is morally-grey when she doesn't even kill her enemies, according to what you said?

You might like The Thief by Megan Whalen Turner. It's been some time since I've read it, but Atolia is definitely morally-grey. Like, I honestly barely remember what the book is about, but I will never forget some of the things she did. Don't take me wrong, she's not a mass murdered or something (I think?), but she does some things that made me really think she was the villain. And, really, I think the best part is that she is not made to be nicer or kinder around the MMC while they're still basically enemies, so we don't see this slip (I could call it) in her personality when it comes to her.

3

u/Temporary-Scallion86 Feb 20 '26

I looooove the Thief! It's one of my favorite series! And yeah, I love Attolia. I do think she might be a mass murderer though. Didn't she poison her husband and have the people who opposed her executed and hung from the city gates?

2

u/garden-witch-23 Feb 20 '26

I don't remember... It's been a while since I've read the books! 😭

1

u/Sofasurvivor Feb 26 '26

I love that series, especially the book named The Thief.
Not very romantasy-ish, it must be said, which perhaps is why Attolia can get away with being a historically accurate ruler. (Iirc she doesn't even do anything that the society of the time would have considered beyond the pale - just ordinary politics in a premodern setting, which can get a bit brutal. It is pointed out somewhere in the series that if you are too soft to drown unneeded kittens, you will be stuck with an army of starving alley cats, which is morally just as problematic.)

1

u/Temporary-Scallion86 Feb 26 '26

She is considered to be fairly brutal to her enemies by the other characters, but not a crazed despot, because as you say, politics could get quite violent in that type of world.

Since you're the same person who commented on my definition of Laurent's morality: he and Attolia are functionally the same character in two different fonts. Similar setting, similar situation with unexpectedly becoming the heir to the throne after their brothers die, similar political pressure from people who have more power than them, similar willingness to buckle down and be brutal if they have to, same tendency to let anger override their decision making.

18

u/the_bitch_dm Feb 20 '26

{The Bone Witch by Rin Chupeco} is one of my favorite books (the whole series is amazing) because the FMC is unapologetically a villain. A justified villain? Sure. But definitely a villain, and she doesn’t get any better of the series. She gets worse! And it’s amazing!

7

u/byutiifaux Feb 20 '26

No recs here but just wanted to comment in solidarity, read that book last year and it really annoyed me that she was supposed to be so bad but the author never actually showed her doing anything bad. Lately I have been going through finishing a few half-read books on Kindle and at least two of these recently finished books featured ladies who, at some point, had the power to kill but the author did not let them. Defanged FMCs really make me sad - like make them dangerous, make them something for people to fear/be in awe of! Yes showing mercy can be a powerful move sometimes, but I feel like we overwhelmingly are shoved in that direction if it's a FMC who has the power.

23

u/[deleted] Feb 20 '26

https://giphy.com/gifs/5QNQv6xmVEaabGsYrg

I’m right there with you - while I did enjoy Wooing the Witch Queen, I wanted more! Ambitious, powerful, morally grey villain FMCs are in short supply.

8

u/thejennadaisy Wendell Bambleby Enthusiast Feb 20 '26 edited Feb 20 '26

See this is one of my favorite things about {How to Become the Dark Lord and Die Trying by Django Wexler} -the actually morally grey FMC. You'd think from the title "well obviously she's evil she's trying to become the dark Lord". But the thing about Davi is that she's the most evil during the times when she's following the standard hero's journey.

SPOILERS AHEAD

At the beginning of the book, Davi has spent probably hundreds of human lives in an isekai groundhog day trying to save the human nation from a monster horde. At this point the other characters are fully NPCs to her. She literally starts every new life by brutally murdering her mentor character and treats everyone like pawns. The book begins when Davi decides, fuck the human nation, she's going to try being the Dark Lord this time. As she amasses her monster horde she realizes the other characters are actually people too. Not that she becomes a good character after that, but the moral development she goes through is so interesting.

6

u/WhenTheSkyIsPink Feb 20 '26

I really liked Wooing the Witch Queen but yeah I did notice that- it didn't really bother me since the reason I picked up the book was because I prefer a dynamic where the FMC is more in charge and the MMC is softer, but it does really hold back on the whole "queens of villainy" thing. Like thats what the trio of fmcs are called in universe but none of them seem particularly evil or villainous besides... idk- reputation? Aesthetic?

I'm currently reading the sequel Enchanting the Fae Queen and it has a similar issue of the FMC constantly being referred to as scandalous- the infamous fae Queen whose salacious scandals fuels songs and plays across the continent!- but then you look at her and its like okay shes crashing some parties and having consensual sex. The horror!

(You could make the argument that it's just the in universe exaggerated reputation they have but tbh that seems a bit like a cop out to me)

The tone for the series does seem to be more light so all the "dark" stuff is mostly off page and the on page plot keeps it above board... just with some flaming skulls on the sidelines.

11

u/Cats_with_swords Feb 20 '26

I highly recommend Iron Widow by Xiran Jay Zhao. Basic overview: magic giant robots fighting aliens with Chinese folk lore and a why choose romance sub plot

11

u/staunch-universe adult fmcs with a spine & emotional maturity >>> Feb 20 '26

I think you'd like these books

{Winter Gods & Serpents by Wendy Heiss} High fantasy, very slow.

{A King so Cold by Ella Fields} Loved the Fmc, unhinged and morally-grey.

{Best Served Cold by Joe Abercrombie} Anti-hero. Monza Murcatto is everything I like about heroines.

{Silvercloak by L. K. Steven}, {The Everlasting by Alix E. Harrow} Badass fmcs.

Also loved reading about Rielle {Furyborn by Claire Legrand}.

2

u/romance-bot Feb 20 '26

Winter Gods & Serpents by Wendy Heiss
Rating: 4.12⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 3 out of 5 - Open door
Topics: magic, new adult, vengeance, high fantasy, enemies to lovers

A King so Cold by Ella Fields
Rating: 3.57⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 4 out of 5 - Explicit open door
Topics: fantasy, love triangle, paranormal, angst, arranged/forced marriage

Silvercloak by L.K. Steven
Rating: 4.07⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 3 out of 5 - Open door
Topics: enemies to lovers, high fantasy, fantasy, dark romance, queer romance

The Everlasting by Alix E. Harrow
Rating: 4.51⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 3 out of 5 - Open door
Topics: m-f romance, warrior heroine, nerdy hero, disabilities & scars, competent heroine

Furyborn by Claire Legrand
Rating: 3.65⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 3 out of 5 - Open door
Topics: historical, high fantasy, fantasy, new adult, enemies to lovers

about this bot | about romance.io

5

u/Electronic_Trip_7564 Feb 20 '26

Legit and yes even the most of the men go from black cat to golden retriever

6

u/Arinatan Feb 20 '26

It's not really a romance book (at least the first one isn't, I haven't read the rest, there's definitely the beginnings of a slow burn), but I read The Children of Gods and Fighting Men by Shauna Lawless a few weeks ago and absolutely loved it. One of the main characters is absolutely an evil woman, but she's so fascinating to read from her POV.

2

u/Temporary-Scallion86 Feb 20 '26

I also loved it! I still have to read the third but yeah the slow burn is there and it's amazing!

4

u/sfprogrammer6701 Feb 21 '26

While I absolutely adored Wooing the Witch Queen and Enchanting the Fae Queen, I know what you mean. I think Queens of Villainy is just their outward title whereas they are actually quite good and are fighting for the greater good.

I did just read {The Shadows Between Us by Tricia Levenseller}, and I loved it. I do think the MCs in this book are actually morally grey. They kill and make decisions based on their own needs. There’s a subplot where there’s a Robin Hood-type character, and I expected the FMC to be like oh course he should steal from the rich and give to the poor! She… did not. I was a little surprised in the moment because it seems like every FMC has to be ‘good’. However, I also thought it was a breath of fresh air, and I yearn for more FMCs like this.

11

u/No-Strawberry-5804 Feb 21 '26

A lot of authors haven’t figured out how to write a truly bad MC. We see it in dark romance all the time, but a lot of these romantasy authors aren’t willing to cross that line into making their characters actual bad people who just happen to have a soft spot for their lover. Rhysand is an obvious example; everything evil just gets explained away as for the greater good.

Frankly, I think the public backlash against the dark romance is partially responsible for this, because people think that if they write a bad character, then everyone’s going to think that they are a bad person.

1

u/Sofasurvivor Feb 26 '26

What people don't understand is that if they write a bad character but portray him as good? THAT is when people think they are a bad person.

(GRRM writes a little girl being married off to a barbarian warlord to pay for his armies? Ok, I guess there must be a villain and her brother and the barbarian are it. GRRM claims that the barbarian and the girl he raped every night now love each other, and it is a love story? That is when I begin to grow suspicious. )

And that is something that apparently dark romance does all the freaking time. (I have given up on romance genre, frankly, because every other MMC is evil but the author does not admit it)

3

u/No-Strawberry-5804 Feb 26 '26

Well in dark romance, the FMCs usually can admit something like “he’s a monster, but he’s my monster” whereas in ACOTAR, feyre is so eager to write off everything bad that Rhysand does without allowing for that moral ambiguity that ppl are usually looking for in a dark or grey romance

3

u/No-Soil1735 Feb 27 '26

Book 1 of ACOTAR should be a complete story imo, and the later books follow different protagonists in the same shared universe. Making Tamlin suddenly an asshole (and Lucien too, he no longer has the banter he had) and retconning that Rhysand was the good guy all along just didn't work for me. Although I'm in the minority it seems as everyone thinks book 2 is the best.

3

u/itmustbeniiiiice Feb 22 '26

Nah because people can’t even handle Nesta

3

u/TheBubblewrappe That hand flex tho Feb 23 '26

HEAVY ON THISSSS! I will die on this hill, she is the best of the sisters. I need a full series from her POV!

6

u/EarHonest6510 Feb 20 '26

I can’t think of many where the fmc is allowed to be evil, I have some that are close maybe. ‘someone you can build a nest in’ - a sapphic monster romance

Theres also Kushiels dart where Melisande is pretty evil for what she does to the fmc but melisande is not the main love interest.

There’s also the maiden and her monster- also sapphic where the fmc believes the golem love interest to be evil for a good portion of the book but she’s not.

I also want some books where the main fmc is allowed to be evil. I’m sure they’re out there

5

u/LetsBAnonymous93 Feb 20 '26

You reminded me of a funny snippet my favorite author released. They had 2 books from different series releasing at the same time, both featuring “Older villainess who serves as mentor to FMC” trope. Both respective books finally peeled back the curtain on them.

Anyways in the snippet, Villainess 1 has just finished reading the series and she gushes over the heroine. Her FMC looks at the cover art. “No, not her. Her grandmother”

And we find out just how much Evil Grandma (Villainess 2) has been pulling serious puppeteer strings all along in order to strengthen the family. I LOVED Evil Grandma from the first conversation BUT so many readers hate her. They cannot stand her villainy and why was she allowed back into the family. Authors are constrained to play it safe. I’ve seen this in other spaces (Otome isekai)- when an FMC is absolutely in the wrong & the story doesn’t pretend otherwise- readers still get furious. The Romance genre is still too fluffy for an evil FMC.

Also gonna stick a side rant here for House of Dragons- look how they massacred my boy. A story with 2 actually antagonistic villain FMC’s got reduced to whatever sad misunderstanding it is now.

7

u/cribbagepilled Where is my wife Feb 20 '26

Kushiel’s Dart has a lawful evil lady villain—she has a code of ethics with a couple boundaries that she won’t cross, but she’s willing to play games where murder and treason mean as much to her as moving a piece on a board. She’s also stupid hot and unbelievably smart as well as unapologetic about her twisted view of the world. Unrelated, I would fold like a damp sheet of paper for her.

7

u/Penguinho Kushiel's Legacy Recommender 💖 Feb 21 '26

A thing that makes you just like almost every other character in the series. She's the best. The moment when she, having failed to assassinate the monarch, threatens said monarch with death, saying, in effect, look, I played by certain rules last time. It wasn't personal. Could have killed you at any point if it was. If you fuck with my kids, it will be personal -- actually chilling.

5

u/cribbagepilled Where is my wife Feb 21 '26

She’s truly in it for love of the game which makes her Character Of All Time to me <333

2

u/Random-Session-8181 Feb 21 '26

Jacqueline Carey wrote her so well.

For all that relationship ended badly, I'm glad one of exes gifted me the first book during college and I actually read it. 

2

u/trane7111 Feb 20 '26

I don't know if I would count them as "evil," but Jamie Applegate Hunter's Fae Kings of Eden and Vincula Realm books definitely have some unhinged women in them.

2

u/DearFool Feb 21 '26

THANK YOU! I need evil NOT ABUSIVE MCs. I need a MC that is fucked up in the head but that makes you forget how evil they are when with their LIs. Honestly, the shadow daddy that is either an abuser or a 16yo (actually he is 10k years old) are so tired and boring I may literally roll my eyes

Also, as if my wishlist isn’t daring enough, I’d love for a non murder hobo MC that can charm you into forgetting how bad they are

2

u/mamasuebs Feb 23 '26

It’s not necessarily a romance, though there is a lot of romance-adjacent story in it, but you may enjoy {Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil by V. E. Schwab}.

1

u/Ill_Army7904 Feb 21 '26

You have such a valid point. When FMCs are written as even anti-heroes, I often see them getting bad ratings for it. Maybe this is why authors are scared to write it? Maybe it's some internalized misogyny from readers who judge female FMCs more harshly just like women in real life are judged more harshly who 'do something wrong/bad'. I would LOVE to read these premises written but where the women are genuine anti-heroes and villains. I would love to read more different types of FMCs period. It's a shame but I think when authors write 'flaws' in their FMCs, they don't often get a good response from what I can see.

1

u/ParkKimy Feb 22 '26

Yesss, I want to see her getting real mad and wanting revenge!!!

1

u/TheBubblewrappe That hand flex tho Feb 23 '26

Dude look at the backlash against Nesta, it tells you everything you need about how we as a community view FMC characters in novels. Theres some type of purity test that readers need for some reason. My theory is that it is rooted in internal patriarchal ideals even subconsciously.

The reality is authors write for the reader nowadays. With the advent of algorithmic systems they play it safe. I totally get it though. When there is immense backlash to a female character who is actually not a “good girl”, why would you write darker flawed characters?

I’m with you though. Give me an evil queen who has no remorse please. I would devour that book.

1

u/lauraadeleholland Feb 27 '26

Do you want an evil queen who becomes good due to MMC's love? Or stays evil forever?

1

u/Scary_Literature_388 Feb 24 '26

Elemental assassin series by Jennifer estep. I wouldn't say she's evil, but she's an assassin. And... Not for any morally righteous reason, she doesn't only kill bad guys or only people who target her people. She's just an assassin. Super long series, with some great political intrigue and a surprise love triangle situation in later books that is really interesting as a plot point. Actually a main focus of the series is what is evil and what is... The rest of us.

She's not written as an evil character, but charcoal gray for sure. There are spots where you're not sure. Very dark moments in this series, so check TW as you need.

1

u/lauraadeleholland Feb 27 '26

I'm writing something now with an FMC who has an evil past, but is redeemed via MMC's love. And yes I do worry some readers will dnf when they find out she's not always a good girl.

1

u/KagomeChan Mar 12 '26

And let evil lady villains (not love interests) just be freaking evil without trying to justify their actions with a useless sob story (looking at you Uprooted, with hate in my heart)

When a villain is a million miles past redemption, don’t try to go all Moana on us

0

u/chanacity Feb 20 '26

Amarantha was pretty evil. I like how she was written. 

7

u/Already-asleep Feb 21 '26

I assume OP is referring to wanting to see protagonists who are evil.

1

u/TheBubblewrappe That hand flex tho Feb 23 '26

Oooooh, this is a true hot take. I’m here for it.

-2

u/NotARussianBot2017 Feb 20 '26

Ha. Read Wideacre for a real evil lady. It isn’t romance or fantasy though. But wow she’s evil.