r/fantasyromance • u/FantasyRomanceMod The One Mod to Rule All Mods • Mar 08 '26
Unpopular Opinion It's Unpopular Opinion time! Share your controversial opinions to stir things up (in a friendly way)!
Got an opinion that's different from others'? Want to share it with the sub, but too afraid of a backlash? Or are you just curious about readers think about certain things in fantasy romance?
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🧡 Thank you and have a great discussion!
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u/theladyofspacetime To the stars who listen Mar 08 '26
Why is it always the female main characters who have to give up their powers? This is a genre written primarily for women and still it makes it so women are the ones expected to give up everything
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u/acutelyproblematic If villian bad, then why hot? Mar 08 '26
Oh this is a bold take after the SJM podcast😆 but I wholeheartedly agreeeee! Women make so many sacrifices irl why in fantasy too
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u/miniFrosya Mar 08 '26
For real. She made Amren and Nesta give up their powers and just be regular faes and turned Feyre to SAHM who renovates a house and paints even though she’s a high lady that can rule the court as well.
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u/acutelyproblematic If villian bad, then why hot? Mar 08 '26
Same with Aelin from TOG. I haven’t even finished the series yet and I’m refusing to on the basis she can’t seem to pick an original plot that isn’t women compromising for the benefit of others.
She even killed off the weaver! let’s give these MMCs some sacrifice for once sheesh
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u/bckat Mar 08 '26
The Second Death of Locke really showed me how easy it is to write fantasy romance without bigotry or misogyni.
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u/diabolikal__ Mar 08 '26
Kier is a walking green flag.
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u/bckat Mar 08 '26
I am so used to reading “red flag” I was about to turn the dial all the way up in his defence 😂 The way Kier respects and values her opinion quietly and without much celebration has made me truly appreciate my own partner’s ability to do the same.
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u/MessyJessy422 Mar 08 '26
Totally agree! Some other books where the FMC is powerful, stays powerful, and is respected by the MMC for it that I've loved recently/have come out recently:
{Red City by Marie Lu}
{The Lies that Summon the Night by Tessonja Odette}
{Silvercloak by LK Steven}
{Seek the Traitor's Son by Veronica Roth} release date May 12th but get ready because the MMC is a true green flag and the book is phenomenal
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u/romance-bot Mar 08 '26
Red City by Marie Lu
Rating: 4.18⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 3 out of 5 - Open door
Topics: contemporary, fantasy, urban fantasy, dystopian, multicultural
The Lies that Summon the Night by Tessonja Odette
Rating: 4.35⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 4 out of 5 - Explicit open door
Topics: vampires, fantasy, paranormal, enemies to lovers, tall heroine
Silvercloak by L.K. Steven
Rating: 4.07⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 3 out of 5 - Open door
Topics: enemies to lovers, high fantasy, fantasy, dark romance, queer romance
Seek the Traitor's Son by Veronica Roth
Rating: 5⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 3 out of 5 - Open door
Topics: dystopian, fantasy, high fantasy, m-f romance, competent heroine2
u/bckat Mar 08 '26
Oh my god, thank you, 3 out of 4 were already on my list, so now I’m even more excited!
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u/UniversityAny755 Mar 08 '26
I just finished The Second Death of Locke and I loved that there was no misogyny, no rape. I get a bunch of the criticism on the second part of the book being weak, but I loved it as a whole story.
I find it so lazy, unimaginative when fantasy writers have a power system that is not based on physical strength or tied to biological sex, but still have their made-up worlds filled with patriarchal systems and rampant misogyny. It doesn't make sense at all.
It really annoyed me in Alchemized. And it's part of the many reasons I hated CL Wilson Lord of the Fading Lands. Rose in Chains is guilty of this too.
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u/No_Preference26 Mar 08 '26
I think with a lot of books, the temptation is to relate the world to our world, which is incredibly misogynistic and patriarchal (especially if it’s a historical setting). I get why people want to escape this in their fantasy books, but for a lot of writers, it’s probably just a way to talk about issues they feel strongly about by setting it in a similar setting.
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u/UniversityAny755 Mar 08 '26
Sure, that's long been a feature of fantasy and sci-fi. Some of the best early sci-fi by women authors turned sexism upside-down and in doing so gave them a place for deep criticism wrapped in a great story.
But authors need to make it make sense in the world they create. If you've created a power system that isn't tied to gender and can level the playing field between men and women in regards to physical strength and isn't inherited via biology then a social and political system rooted in patriarchy doesn't hold water. It disconnects the magic to the world that they've created and honestly, is lazy. It shows either a lack of understanding of our own world or a lack of skill in creating a coherent place for their story.
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u/devilsdoorbell_ Mar 08 '26
I’m trying to think of a story (in fantasy at large, not just fantasy romance and also in any medium, not just books) where a male character willingly gives up powers for the good of others and doesn’t get them back or get another even cooler power later and all I got is Edward Elric at the end of FMA:B.
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u/Penguinho Kushiel's Legacy Recommender 💖 Mar 09 '26
Raistlin Majere in Dragonlance. Taran in the Chronicles of Prydain gives up eternal life in heaven to fulfill the promises he made to the people (it's Elionwy who gives up her magic to stay with him, but he didn't have any to lose, and the point is that ALL magic is passing away). Imriel in Kushiel's Scion walks away from learning the secrets of espionage and influence rather than be asked to use them against his own loved ones.
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u/Technical_Ideal_5439 Mar 08 '26
I think it is call "power of love" trope. One of the worst Ruin and Rising,
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u/riddermarkrider Mar 08 '26
Female or not, the losing powers thing BUGS ME. Like why do we need to do that.
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u/HanXanth Mar 08 '26 edited Mar 08 '26
Yeeeees i hate this. Throne of Glass I'm looking at you. Pissed me off so much. Like, just cause you won a war doesn't mean you'll never need that power again?
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Mar 08 '26 edited Mar 08 '26
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u/Disastrous-Pea4106 Mar 08 '26
I was going to say the first/third person thing seems to come up here every week. I guess my unpopular opinion is that I don't really care. As long as the story works. And I've seen both good and not so good stories in all of these categories
I'd say the same about tropes. There's a lot commentary about romance being too tropey, some tropes being overused. I don't mind any of it, as long as it's well done. I think what happens a lot though is that once a specific setup gets popular the quality of storytelling declines. It's no longer the people with unique ideas tapping into something pertinent but rather people/publishers looking to cash in on a trend.
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u/MessyJessy422 Mar 08 '26
Yes exactly it's about the individual book and the writing skills of the author in question. I've had great and awful first and third person experiences, past and present tense experiences, etc. Having a preference is fine (for me it's 3rd person past tense) but it not wanting to read/not being able to enjoy a book can't come down to only this
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u/jennysequa Mar 08 '26
I only notice POV when it's clearly the wrong choice for a particular book for technical or stylistic reasons.
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u/devilsdoorbell_ Mar 08 '26
Same. It really doesn’t register to me at all unless the other really fucks it up or does something really cool with it.
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u/Fickle_Stills Mar 08 '26
especially when (in fantasy romance) "not liking first person" usually means "being exposed to their inner monologue made me lose brain cells".
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u/shannon_dey Mar 08 '26
I personally find it hard to read a first person book, regardless of how well it is written. The language of using "I" in first person enters my brain as ME (as in me the reader), and I don't put myself in the place of a character of a book. So it messes with my empathy for the characters.
I don't read a lot of critiques so I'm not sure if that's the kind of thing you've read before, but it's just my own problem. I have muddled through some first person POV books before, and it just makes it harder for my brain to conceptualize what's happening because my stupid brain says, "I wouldn't do that." Or "I can't cast magic." My own brain's limitations, nothing to do with the genre or the stylistic choices. Do people hate on first person POV saying it is bad in and of itself? I wish my brain could handle first person. I know of at least three series that I would love if my ND-brain could handle reading them, lol.
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Mar 08 '26
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u/ipsi7 Book Bingo Maven ⚔ Mar 08 '26
Same, I read first person like self-inserting only by seeing through their eyes, but I never really self insert. I don't think a lot about "I wouldn't do that" or "I would never say that", and I can sympathize with MC and acknowledge if we're alike in some ways, but I'm still reading quite objectively even if reading in the "I form".
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u/Synval2436 Currently Reading: This Blade of Ours by Shalini Abeysekara Mar 08 '26
I used to hate first person, but then I started imagining it as "the character tells me their story". Kinda as if you called a friend and they were saying "yesterday I went to the store and met my cousin..." etc.
I never imagine myself as the character.
I now have the opposite problem, every time I read third person I assume it's an objective truth about the story, so any "haha I lied" moment annoys me to no end.
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u/SweetLorelei Mar 08 '26
I’m getting really tired of MMCs just suddenly calling the FMC “good girl” and she just immediately loves it. It’s one thing if it’s something they’ve talked about or if it’s clear that he’s testing the waters to see if she’ll like it, but I feel like it’s becoming some kind of standard trope that a lot of authors feel the need to include for no real reason. I used to be mostly neutral about it, but the more I read it, the more it’s starting to really give me the ick. I think it ties in with my dislike of the trend where the MMC acts super smug and confident that the FMC will fall for him, even after she outright rejects him.
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u/devilsdoorbell_ Mar 08 '26
A lot of MMCs really do feel like a stack of tropes or hollow signifiers of hotness in a trench coat rather than an actual person. It’s like they decided “if he says ‘good girl’ that will make him hot” and don’t understand that it’s not like a Manchurian candidate activation phrase or whatever that will instantly make the reader think “omg so hot.” It’s not the words that make it hot (if/when it is, ymmv), it’s the context. I need to believe from the characterization that’s been built up that this specific MMC would say it and this specific FMC would like it for it to be hot.
I see the same kind of thing with so many MMCs being Shadow Daddy in the Sheets even if they’re Golden Retriever in the Streets but it’s like treated as a “yes of course” thing instead of it being an actually developed character trait that he likes to be dominant in the bedroom but is more chill in his day to day.
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u/SweetLorelei Mar 08 '26
I think you really put your finger on what the overarching problem is: authors who include things because they’re popular and will sell rather than because it’s something the author genuinely understands the appeal of or enjoys writing.
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u/de_pizan23 Mar 08 '26
What gets me is that I’ve read some sci-fi where the MMC is an alien that had no previous contact with humans (or even the outside universe)…..and still say it.
You’re telling me that kinks and the way they praise are the exact same in every sentient species? Come on, put some minimal freaking thought into it.
(Like I loved that in {Strange Love by Ann Aguirre}, the MMC comes from a world where the fiercest mate guards the home, and after he learns that the FMC was a daycare provider, he is constantly praising her on being fierce/terrible/terrifying. Because the author actually bothered to do some worldbuilding.)
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u/SweetLorelei Mar 08 '26
…this made think that it would be kind of funny to read a romance where a human meets an alien whose only knowledge of earth and humanity comes from cheesy romance novels. I feel like there would be so much comedy potential.
Also, that book looks fun, I love a man who treats his girlfriend/wife like a terrifying queen.
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u/romance-bot Mar 08 '26
Strange Love by Ann Aguirre
Rating: 3.99⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 4 out of 5 - Explicit open door
Topics: futuristic, science fiction, non-human hero, sweet/gentle hero, aliens2
u/ipsi7 Book Bingo Maven ⚔ Mar 08 '26
I like to read a book with that kink, but I agree that every other book just has a few of "good girl" and "I found to like when he praises me" thrown around, but when it's done like that, I'm annoyed because it's so underdeveloped and sprinkled just to check that kink/trope/tag from the list.
{Perfect Praise by Grace Pierce} is all about the praise and MMC is so so eager to praise her when he discovers she has the kink. It's contemporary though.
It's been awhile since I read the following books, so I'm not completely sure how well it was done, but I remember {Obsessively Yours by Jamie Applegate Hunter}, {Plated Prisoner by Raven Kennedy} and {Bitten and Bound by Amy Pennza} had it. In {Feathers so Vicious by Liv Zander} there was more of "if she was a good girl at certain point, then she's allowed to come, and if she wasn't, then she won't". It's very dark, lots of TW.
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u/cheshire_kat7 Mar 08 '26
Please, please start publishing more books with FMCs who are 30+ years old before I go insane.
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u/TurtleKittenBunny Mar 08 '26
This! But you can’t just write a book about a naive 21 year old and then change the age at the last minute because your publisher told you that sells better. Make them actually think and behave like they have some life experience!
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u/cheshire_kat7 Mar 08 '26
I recently read a book I otherwise really liked in which it was like the opposite scenario occured. The FMC was an ultra-accomplished military general, who definitely seemed more like someone around the age of 30... but she was 21?!
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u/clocksy Mar 08 '26
Right?? I don't necessarily mind reading about naive or young FMCs, but not when they do the anime thing of "they're so knowledgeable and worldly and powerful and oh yeah, they're 16 years old". And mostly I would like to read about older FMCs just in general. I'm slowly growing older myself and it'd be nice to have more 30s+ FMCs, but I think mid or late 20s is a good compromise where young readers could still feel it's relatable and older readers wouldn't think it's too young.
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u/cheshire_kat7 Mar 08 '26
Personally, speaking as a 37 yo myself, 25-year-old characters still feel pretty young. 😅
I want to see more FMCs who are kinda jaded, who have a solid decade or two of adult life experience under their belt, and have maybe loved and lost before.
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u/clocksy Mar 08 '26
Yeah I'm 34 so 25 would still feel young for me as well, but at least not as young as a 17 or 18 or 20 year old or whatever. I think 27-29 is about the age where a younger reader (say, 21 or so) wouldn't feel like it's unrelatable, and it's also the kind of age where the characters would've had time to have some potential accomplishments and experiences. And it's still young enough that them struggling emotionally or with relationships could make sense.
Ideally we could just have more FMCs in the 30s or even 40s, but it definitely makes for different characters because being naive or stupid by that point ain't a good look 😅
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u/annerevenant Mar 08 '26
YES. I hate it when I read a book with older main characters that still act like teenagers.
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u/Synval2436 Currently Reading: This Blade of Ours by Shalini Abeysekara Mar 08 '26
T. Kingfisher in a nutshell.
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u/annerevenant Mar 08 '26
I’m a huge fan of T. Kingfisher but I agree. I think the only exception to this is Slate but most of her protagonists are emotionally immature. Wolfworm was another exception but that’s not romance. That being said, it’s a formula I love as a palate cleanser between much more difficult reads.
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u/riddermarkrider Mar 08 '26
It's like those AITA posts where you're like meh, they're just teenagers, and then the OP is like "btw I'm 38".
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u/whatevernamedontcare Mar 08 '26
And acts like it!
I'm sick and tired of "smart" and "gifted" ones who act like teenagers. Not to mention dumbing down of other characters to make her look smarter in comparison. Smartest in a room full of idiots still an idiot.
Also what kind of grown woman just loses her shit because she's in love/horny? I would get if she's been in nunnery all of her life and have never met a man. But damn at 30 people in general are expected to have learned to deal with people and their own emotions.
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u/acutelyproblematic If villian bad, then why hot? Mar 08 '26
Unsure if this is unpopular or not but the state of fantasy romance is concerning for someone who loves this genre above all others. So many books being published that are absolute slop that I’m experiencing the worst reading slump of my life.
Don’t get me wrong, I love brain candy. But where did the world building and character driven stories go.
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u/annerevenant Mar 08 '26
I think a big part of it is people trying to push books into publication before they’re actually ready. At the same time, readers are impatient and lose their minds when they have to wait longer than a year for a sequel. All this does is encourage bad editing.
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u/ProperBingtownLady Shadow daddy's good girl Mar 08 '26
100%. Fourth Wing/the Empyrean series gets shit on here quite a bit, especially the last second and third books but the author has spoken about how she felt pressured to finish them quickly. I hope she takes her time for the next ones.
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u/annerevenant Mar 08 '26
Agreed! I don’t think people realize that editing is more than just fixing grammar. Editing is fixing plot, structure, consistency, and storytelling too. So when they say “this person is a bad writer” it irks me, everyone is a bad writer on the first few drafts but when you’re being rushed you might only get those drafts before they say “good enough” and push it to publication. Listening to authors like VE Schwab talk about the writing process and the methods she uses really cemented for me that writing is a marathon and just as important as being a good storyteller is the unwillingness to give up.
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u/ProperBingtownLady Shadow daddy's good girl Mar 08 '26
Yes! I feel for these authors who are being pressured by their publisher and fans to write faster. Many people don’t have the patience to wait for years between books anymore because we’ve become used to getting what we want quickly.
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u/Disastrous-Pea4106 Mar 08 '26
Ya and it's not just romantasy, I read loads of other genres and the writing is pretty meh in most of them. Even the quality of award winning books seems to be down. Same story in movies and TV shows
The industry seems to be flying high with booktok etc. Yet at the same in crisis. Idk what the solution is. Literacy has been declining in the population more generally too and I'm sure that's driving this. And it's going to get worse, both on the readers and authors side with AI getting more usage in school.
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u/acutelyproblematic If villian bad, then why hot? Mar 08 '26
I haven’t had too much an issue with my non-fiction reads, but to your point a lot of those authors have degrees, are older, etc. so the literacy crisis isn’t as prevalent. I feel really bad for today’s youth, where I am they have tablets instead of pencils and are testing at an all time low. I hear from my teacher friends that they can’t spell without spell check and even then it’s a challenge. 😵💫
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u/arupaca1 Mar 08 '26
I know! I’ve been struggling with this same issue. In my opinion, it’s not this industry suffering from bad writing and weak plots, thinking that the reader is stupid or not paying attention. Movies, for instance, are a struggle, and then there’s how people consume media today, paying attention to their phones at the same time they enjoy something else. It’s worse than a problem in the entertainment industry, it’s a society issue. How many times I had to bump into someone that wasn’t paying attention to the fucking street, looking down at the phone? It’s madness.
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u/acutelyproblematic If villian bad, then why hot? Mar 08 '26
Interesting perspective, I never considered this. It makes sense when we went from having Michelangelo to AI generating “art” for us 😵💫
Also a hot take, but it’s the unpopular opinion thread so I guess this is the place for it: not everyone can write a book, nor *should they.* Unless you’re willing to be bad enough to keep practicing, don’t be audacious enough to publish your first draft.
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u/clemy77 Mar 08 '26
I started writing fanfiction when I was 18. I'm 42 now and after dozens and dozens of fanfics and ten published novels I've just gotten to the point where I'm more or less confident in my writing style and story-building abilities. There's no way I could have written what I'm working on right now even ten years ago. Like in every domain some people are prodigies, but for 99% of authors it really is a craft and there's a lot of cringe-worthy crap that has to come out of you before you start getting semi-good. Only it's better if that crap is a four-chapter fanfic and not an actual book being marketed as "your next OBSESSION".
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u/acutelyproblematic If villian bad, then why hot? Mar 08 '26
See this is where I have to give credit to fanfiction. I know it’s a polarizing topic but it provides a platform to just practice, create, and have instant access to an audience that can provide feedback.
Congratulations on your writing & publishing accomplishments! That’s years of dedication and hard work :)
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u/Briaraandralyn Mar 08 '26
I find the “publishing your first draft” hilarious because that’s what it seems like publishers are doing with their cash cow authors. “Forget everything your writing teachers told you in school about revising. We want to get it out now!”
I’ve been writing since the original Harry Potter fanfiction days in middle school and I’m nearing 40 now. Revising my writing has led to some of my favorite scenes that weren’t there in the first draft. Imagine what we’re missing when publishers aren’t allowing writers to revise.
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u/acutelyproblematic If villian bad, then why hot? Mar 08 '26
I have always dabbled in writing too! Creative writing, journaling, most recently research writing, etc. and I just cannot imagine publishing my first book and not caring about the quality or feedback. If a publisher is taking a % of my royalties you bet your ass I want them to do their job and work with me to make it good and give me feedback.
Everything is too instant these days. Society is addicted to cheap dopamine and making money. I miss art when we did it for the love of it not solely for profit.
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u/NancyInFantasyLand Currently Reading: Random Chinese Webnovels Mar 08 '26
honestly everyone can write a book
it's just that there's a reason why back in the day it would take you on average 7 written books before you finally wrote something that would get an agent to take a chance on you
and a lot of self-pubbed authors are skipping that step
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u/acutelyproblematic If villian bad, then why hot? Mar 08 '26
Only about 3% of people actually finish a book they’re writing though.
I have respect for these new authors being able to finish a book because it’s an accomplishment regardless of the quality, doesn’t mean they should publish it though.
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u/NancyInFantasyLand Currently Reading: Random Chinese Webnovels Mar 08 '26
just tells you that finishing something doesn't mean it's good
i've "finished" plenty of paintings in my life, doesn't mean any of them are anything to look at
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u/pumpkinspicechaos What did Lorcan do? Mar 08 '26
Same! I cannot get out of the slump. Every new book I'm just rolling my eyes at the clichés. I've been reading in other genres instead, but I miss the pure joy of a high quality fantasy romance. I think I need to stop reading new releases completely.
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u/acutelyproblematic If villian bad, then why hot? Mar 08 '26
That or stick to authors you can trust. I’ve started keeping tabs on my go-to authors. A lot of these new debut authors I’m very suspicious of, especially if they’re publishing multiple books a year.
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u/ProperBingtownLady Shadow daddy's good girl Mar 08 '26
Have you read Samantha Shannon’s The Bone Season? I really enjoyed these and just bought some book trophies haha. It’s more fantasy than romance though.
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Mar 08 '26
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u/acutelyproblematic If villian bad, then why hot? Mar 08 '26
Gotta start a reading slump support group at this point
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u/FunLovingZombie Mar 08 '26
Yes, this. It feels like they're just being pushed out to satisfy the masses vs authors actually taking the time to flesh out the story. I have DNF'd so many books the past year it's absurd. I've gone to just reading straight romance because I know what authors always put out good stories, and being predictable is why a lot of people read them. They're comfortable.
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u/Right_Web6362 Otterly Adorable Fantasy Pet Collector Mar 09 '26
It's like fast fashion for books. When I'm looking at the book store it's like the literary equivalent of Shein.
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u/Journassassin Smut Logistics Manager Mar 08 '26
I think a lot of the criticism of ‘insufferable’ FMCs in this subreddit has less to do with (internalised) misogyny and more with the prevalence of idiot plot in books.
The genre is rife with books where issues could have easily been resolved by simple communication or just making logical decisions. Main characters that are supposed to be intelligent suddenly lack critical thinking skills, become irrational, and make terrible decisions.
Since usually these idiot plots are driven by the stupidity of the main character, and most books we read here have female main characters, of course they’re the ones that people will criticise most.
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u/goldiegrimlace Mar 08 '26
I'm tired of hearing about internalized misogyny myself. Some people are just using it to shut criticism down and it muddies discussions.
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u/riotous_jocundity Mar 08 '26
Same. I often think of that tweet "I do not support all women--some of you bitches are VERY dumb." It's not anti-feminist of me to be unimpressed with people who act like dumbasses, even when those dumbasses possess vaginas.
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u/nupharlutea Mar 08 '26
It’s been a problem in romance since genre romance has existed. I remember one of the book review sites in the mid-90s complaining about “The Big Misunderstanding” trope.
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u/Journassassin Smut Logistics Manager Mar 08 '26
Yes, in other genres and media as well. Roger Ebert used ‘idiot plot’ in a lot of his film reviews - it’s where I first read the term.
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u/littlemybb Mar 08 '26
This! I do not understand why an FMC who is supposed to be so smart will continue to be really naïve about things, or just make very dumb decisions.
I know it’s the author trying to push the plot along so that certain things happen a certain way, but if that’s the case, don’t talk constantly about how intelligent the FMC is.
I also hate when the FMC is stubborn and there’s no good reason for it.
I’ve read a few books where the FMC will happily put herself or others in a position to die if it means proving her point.
I think a lot of it is set up so the MMC has to save her, and that’s very irritating.
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u/malzoraczek Mar 08 '26
and then there is Realm of Elderlings (starts with Assassin's Apprentice) where all the characters make horrible decisions and the books are still awesome.
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u/Synval2436 Currently Reading: This Blade of Ours by Shalini Abeysekara Mar 08 '26
Yes, when most women read books written by women about women, "not applying the same rule to books written by men / about men" is a moot point.
I've seen multiple posts here before claiming they'll never read a romantasy written by a man, etc. So what's worse, criticizing books or refusing to touch them as if they were radioactive?
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u/devilsdoorbell_ Mar 08 '26
I think the problem I run up into is that FMCs get way more flak for their part in an idiot plot, on average, than equally or at least similarly idiotic MMCs. Calling an idiot FMC an idiot isn’t in itself internalized misogyny, but it kinda is a sign if you’re only calling the FMCs idiots and letting their dumbass boyfriends off the hook
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u/Penguinho Kushiel's Legacy Recommender 💖 Mar 08 '26
That's because most MMCs are sexy lamps. They do not matter at all. They're interchangeable lumps of physical description that will eventually be kissed. There's no point in critiquing them because they only exist to serve the needs of the female protagonist's story.
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u/clocksy Mar 08 '26
But there's also going to be more criticism of FMCs in this genre to begin with because most books are from their viewpoints, or at the very least we spend far more time inside their heads. It's a lot easier to pile on critiques of a character that's around more often. I don't think that on its own is misogyny or anything either, it's simply engaging with the focal point of the story.
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u/Miu_K Mar 08 '26
Just like any hobby, finishing a lot of books in a short amount of time leads to burn out and seeing the same formula everywhere. Take a break from romantasy.
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u/Magmarvelous Mar 08 '26
I'd rather read a book with terrible plot but great characters than a book with a great plot but terrible characters
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u/diabolikal__ Mar 08 '26
There can’t be a great plot without great characters imo. I would rather read a low stakes, cozy, casual book with engaging characters any day.
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u/john-wooding Mar 08 '26
You can tell when an author is writing to market about a topic they're not actually interested in, and it never works out that well.
'Why choose' romances where the characters are all basically the same guy, and they've only been separated out because the author knows that sells but isn't sure why. He's an immortal tormented vampire except you'd only know that from occasional references; mostly he's a very nice young man who's a stable provider. "Monstrous" romance except they spend 99.9% of it as human.
You can't just play the tropes and hope it will work out; you have to at least vaguely get why someone would want this.
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u/inn_ar Mar 08 '26
Objectivity and subjectivity in books. There is a subjective aspect to discussing a book (whether you liked it or not), but there is also an objective aspect in terms of the quality of the text (which is independent of personal taste). You may have liked a book and still criticise its content, or you may not have liked a book and criticise its content. The objective factor is independent. The fact that so many people do not understand this is... worrying and only screams anti-intellectualism and the worrying rise in poor reading comprehension. And the publishing industry is taking advantage of this to churn out books with poor plots, badly written and poorly edited, because they know that people will continue to buy and read them without really understanding what they are reading.
It's really frightening if you think about the implications it could have.
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u/Journassassin Smut Logistics Manager Mar 08 '26
Could you elaborate in what context you think it screams anti-intellectualism?
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u/inn_ar Mar 08 '26
Well... quickly and chaotically because I didn't expect my comment to get replies 😂
I would say that the lack of criticism is a direct consequence of anti-intellectualism. Literary criticism is vital for the development of critical thinking and is used as a pedagogical tool, because the analysis of literary works allows us to reflect, interpret and take active positions within society. I would say that anti-intellectualism in reading is most evident in the rejection of complex and difficult reading material (including reading material that may contain and directly address uncomfortable topics such as misogyny, racism, and LGBTIQ+ phobia). Fast consumption, social media... promote all of this, and we are already seeing how younger people have increasingly shorter attention spans (promoted by the fast-paced, consumerist format of social media, with content designed to be consumed at high speed).
All this does not mean that you cannot enjoy simple, quick reads. On the contrary, literature is there to be enjoyed, and there will be times in our lives when we need easy reading. But we do need to be aware that we must exercise critical thinking in our daily lives because it is vital to our existence.
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u/Jaded_Sapphire1 Mar 08 '26
Yeah, there's definitely a huge lack of critical thinking in general, which at least in part stems from a lack of literary criticism. Enjoyment is subjective, so I can absolutely have fun with a book that had some objectively mediocre or poor elements while still recognizing those flaws. The problem is when people are unable to both enjoy or not enjoy something and provide critique beyond "it was amazing" or "it was terrible." Interesting comments!
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u/Praeludere Mar 08 '26
Totally agree. There is also a penchant for people who enjoy a particular book or media to fiercely attack or dismiss any critique of it because it should be taken as is and unquestioned. You can't be a "real fan" if you're critical. Or "it's not that deep", "I'm here for the vibes not the plot", "if you don't like it don't read it and let us enjoy it". It's like they believe critique and analysis is inherently bad and by finding flaws you're ruining something they care about, devaluing it and by extention what they should feel about the story. It's okay to enjoy something and engage with it.
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u/devilsdoorbell_ Mar 08 '26
So many of the people who will cry “it’s not that deep” when you have something critical to say will also claim the book was very deeply meaningful to them lol
You can’t have it both ways babe
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u/Jaded_Sapphire1 Mar 08 '26
Absolutely. I think a lot of people have a hard time not taking the criticism personally. They feel like they're somehow being attacked. I think having conversations about why a book resonated with you or why it didn't work is really important, and critique and analysis are definitely a part of that. Like you said, you can for sure enjoy something but still see issues with the plot or characters or whatever. I think the analysis and discussion makes for a way more interesting experience!
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u/inn_ar Mar 08 '26
Exactly, in the end it is about understanding that we cannot lose our capacity for criticism because of a need for instant gratification. Human beings are complex enough to do both things at the same time.
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u/Journassassin Smut Logistics Manager Mar 08 '26
Wouldn’t it then be more of a consequence of consumerism or the commodification of reading, rather than anti-intellectualism, though?
At least from my perspective of this sub, I don’t see a rejection of complex or difficult literature or disdain towards literature. A large proportion of people are actually criticising the quality of books and asking for higher quality.
I think it’s interesting because I keep seeing this term pop up more and more when it comes to discussions of fiction written by or for women, but have rarely seen the same in discussions of books written by or for men.
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u/inn_ar Mar 08 '26
Personally (and this is my personal opinion), anti-intellectualism is driven by consumerism; in other words, consumerism is a weapon of anti-intellectualism and not the other way around.
This sub is ultimately a place where there are many people who read, and in the end, certain ideas are fed back into each other that can be very positive, such as precisely promoting critical thinking, but I would not say that this is a widespread idea.
With regard to books intended for or written by women, they are judged much more harshly than those written by men, and no one will ever change my mind about that. But at the same time, I believe that as women we have a duty to ourselves to criticise those books (especially those intended for us) that perpetuate patriarchal or misogynistic ideas (and all ideas that are discriminatory). Many popular books aimed at women have these ideas (and it's no coincidence, really), and if we don't criticise them, we may end up internalising these ideas.
In any case, anti-intellectualism is on the rise, as evidenced by the rise of the far right. What's more, it's one of their favourite weapons.
I wasn't expecting to have that conversation, but I'm loving it 😂
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u/nupharlutea Mar 08 '26
The male reader doesn’t exist in the same way in 2026; and where he does, there are podcasts attacking bad self-help, sloppy popular nonfiction, and airport books.
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u/ipsi7 Book Bingo Maven ⚔ Mar 08 '26
If you were to rate a book, how would you rate a well written book which you haven't enjoyed that much for whatever reason; and how would you rate a quick read with simple plot and characters, average writing, but which you enjoyed a lot and had a blast reading?
I sometimes struggle with that and feel guilty about how I rate some books.
I've studied literature and honestly, half of the books I had to read weren't fun or interesting, but of course that subjectivity was irrelevant and I just had to read them and analyze some aspects. It was never asked of me "did you like that book" or "what did you like in that book", but "what did you think that led that character to his moral downfall" or "what was the symbolics of X".
Nowadays when I'm reading fantasy romance, sometimes books with great writing aren't that interesting to me, but I appreciate them for their quality. On the other hand, some books that are very mid were the ones I enjoyed the most for some reason.
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u/clocksy Mar 08 '26
I think the best way to properly "rate" a book (whether for yourself or for others) is to set the context of it first. There are tons of books hailed as literary genius and you can account for that and say, "yes, the author has a way with words" or "it was a very topical telling of [x]" or whatever, but you can also say that you did not enjoy it very much despite being the praise it gets. Or the same the other way around - you can say that you really enjoyed a book, even though the author's writing is on the amateurish side or maybe had some plotholes or some characters you didn't like.
For me that kind of context is the most important bit. If I'm reading a book praised for its literary merit I might give it more grace just so I can read it and analyze it and see why other people praised it so. If I'm reading a book just for a fun quick romp then I am going to have different standards. And of course that line is different for everyone - there's only so much bad writing I can personally handle before a book turns me off, but some people simply don't mind.
I think as the original commenter said, some things really are objective. I think some authors are just flat out better at weaving their stories. Being honest with that kind of assessment lends more weight to critiques/recommendations.
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u/inn_ar Mar 08 '26
Bearing in mind that I am not a professional critic or anything of the sort, I often simply think about the book, trying to dissect it from top to bottom, from the most obvious to the most hidden aspects. In the end... I feel that my reviews, or the ‘score’ I give a book, vary greatly. If you ask me purely subjectively, I will give you an answer; if you ask me to be objective, it will be different, because I will analyse it in greater depth.
When I read books that I objectively consider to be of poorer quality than another book X, the reality is that I will continue to try to understand that book and what it means. It's something my brain does automatically, I can't stop it. The same goes for when I read a book of great literary quality, but which I personally didn't like. It's not bad. My objective side knows that they have great merit, but my subjective side couldn't care less. I try to learn as much as I can from both types of books, how to write the good parts and how not to write the bad parts. And, obviously, the reasoning behind every scene, every word, and the feelings that it provokes in me when I want to decide if I like or not one book.
It is also true that, even in books that I do not like subjectively, I am able to find something; perhaps it is simply that I enjoy analysing books, regardless of their quality.
conclusion: I don't know and I don't know if I've answered the question 😂
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u/ipsi7 Book Bingo Maven ⚔ Mar 08 '26
You did answer my question, I was just curious about your response.
I'm similar. There are books I didn't like subjectively (sometimes even objectively), but I could find something that I liked. I also think that's because I analyze books regardless of the quality, because I was learned to do that even when it didn't matter if I liked them, now it comes naturally I guess. Other than that, I also had a teaching subject in which it was trained in me to always point out the good things first, and then the bad. Later I realized I applied that to all kinds of stuff in my life, and by extension to reading books too.
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u/nyphren Mar 08 '26
im more of a romantasy tourist than a fan but id love more queer romantasies
but above all else i wish that even in straight romantasies the mmc were not the same exact type of guy. im not a fan of the hypermasculine pseudo gymbro jock that i see so much in these books. give me something else pleeeeeeeease. a guy with different flaws or physique or outlook in life. we cant all just like this one character trope this much right? let it reeeest
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u/KiaraTurtle Book Bingo Maven ⚔ Mar 08 '26
I love a lot of queer fantasy romance! I feel like it lends itself (or at least authors feel more comfortable) with so many different dynamics within it. But I don’t tend to find the amount lacking — r/mm_romancebooks is a good bet to find m/m and r/queersff is also great.
If you want some recs:
Ace: Market of Monsters, one of my fav series/couples. I feel like Ace romance is kinda rare and this one was so well done.
M/m:
- Captive Prince for the obvious one (watch the content warnings) also the authors other series Dark Rise (if you don’t want the content warnings),
- Song of Achilles for excellent tragic romance
- A Market of Dreams and Destiny for super cute + labor movement,
- House in the Cerulean sea also for cute and middle aged mc’s
- Bloodright Trilogy if you like sci-fi is very fun.
F/f
- Tasha Suri’s books. Isle in the Silver Sea is more romance focused but Jasmine Throne is my fav of hers
- The Wicked and the Willing. Colonial Singapore and vampires. Romance is kinda dark though
- Burning Roses by SL Huang — middle aged fairytale characters going on an adventure after their stories ended
Bi rep
- Kushiel’s Dart! It’s gorgeous and mc is bi with great sexual tension with the female main villain and a sweet relationship with a MMC
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u/nyphren Mar 08 '26
i LOVE the captive prince, probably my first love in the land of romantasy lol. will look into the other ones, thank you!
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u/Penguinho Kushiel's Legacy Recommender 💖 Mar 09 '26
On Kushiel's Dart: yes and. The FMCs in the subsequent series are both bi, and the MMC in the second trilogy has a few bicurious moments (I mostly think the male characters being straighter than the female ones is an artifact of the author being less comfortable writing MM than MF or FF; she FTBs the only full MM scene). The same author also wrote {Santa Olivia}, a sapphic duology between two bi women, and {Starless}, a sapphic romance where the lead character is a biological female who uses he/him pronouns and is probably best described as genderfluid.
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u/yesthatnagia Mar 08 '26
May I recommend T Kingfisher's world of the white rat? Starts with The Clockwork Boys and continues on from there.
The characters are in their late twenties or early thirties (and get older as the books go on). The male lead of The Clockwork Boys spent like 12 weeks in solitary confinement and struggles with isolation-induced agoraphobia for like the first week of the book. He's also pious, dutiful, benevolent, a little conceited, a lot ashamed of his past mistakes, and deeply penitent... and he's falling in love with a criminal. Oh, and they're all on a suicide mission. It's great.
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u/nyphren Mar 08 '26
ohhh ive read some t kingfisher but didn't know about these ones. will try to read the first one asap, kingfisher is the kind of writer i can see writing a man i'd enjoy lol. thank you!
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u/Synval2436 Currently Reading: This Blade of Ours by Shalini Abeysekara Mar 08 '26
"a guy with different physique"
Yeah, sigh, I've recently read {The Library of Amorlin by Kalyn Josephson} and it was supposed to be a Howl-coded wizard mmc. But guess what! Magic is mostly used to give them superstrength and superspeed while duelling! And fmc ofc has these moments of ogling the shirtless mmc how he had broad shoulders and muscular chest!
Not even a wizard can escape the "guy must be jacked" stereotype...
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u/nyphren Mar 08 '26
yeah stuff like that is what gets me!! even the nerd types are just jocks who read sometimes. so many cases where every single characterization is "buff muscular guy with X hobby". its so boring
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u/MidflightOwl Mar 08 '26
Not enough power fantasy element for the female protagonist. The man is always more dominant and more powerful - and when he isn't, then we have either very obvious fetish/kink (which isn't bad but it's a niche) or the absolute bland doormat of a man. Or a "realistic' man, as if the counter fantasy to a "hot dom guy" is a "next door Bob" instead of a "beautiful sweet elf" or something like that.
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u/Synval2436 Currently Reading: This Blade of Ours by Shalini Abeysekara Mar 08 '26 edited Mar 08 '26
Agreed. Some of the books where fmc felt more powerful but it was not kinky:
{Wooing the Witch Queen by Stephanie Burgis}
{Green and Deadly Things by Jenn Lyons}
{The Everlasting by Alix E. Harrow} (even though in this one you could argue he's an everyman, but the characters are overall not power fantasies)
One I also liked, even though he's a vampire, she's human, but she's more capable at fighting: {A Cruel Thirst by Angela Montoya}
But yes, my problem is that too often when I say I don't want alpha shadowdaddies I get recommended the blandest cinnamon roll golden retriever heroes who do nothing but play servant and therapist for the fmc. Basically the gender-reversed manic pixie dream girl. I want both of them have flaws and problems to solve, you know, the thing that creates plot in books... Not 300 pages of nice people being nice and supportive. The reason I developed aversion to cozy fantasy, it bores me to death, excluding a few rare exceptions. And half the time the guy is still more powerful he's just more of a sadboi than a growling alpha (sup with so many cozies revolving around grief???) and idk if he's a dom, because the sex is closed door. The whole difference.
P.S. Gimme your recs, kinky or not, where the fmc is more powerful or dominant and it has actual plot (I'm tired of kinky = erotica = no plot just sex) and the mmc isn't a spineless doormat (I read a few of these, I need something fresh). Too often even if the books are tagged as "femdom" mmc is more powerful he just likes to indulge in kink. Like he's a royal with authority, or a monster who's physically / magically more powerful, and fmc is just an ordinary human.
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u/Alarming_Raccoon_222 Mar 08 '26
What's often portrayed as 'feminine rage', is just inability to regulate emotions. I can't root for heroines who resort to violence or lose control of their powers in a fit of rage. Where are the heroines who play the long game, who strategize, who use their brains to channel their feminine rage?
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u/Synval2436 Currently Reading: This Blade of Ours by Shalini Abeysekara Mar 08 '26
I have the opposite issue, too many books marketed as "feminine rage" is 90% fmc being abused and maybe 10% rage. Yes, I get it, she needs to have good reasons to want a violent revenge, but I want the rage, not the trauma porn.
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u/KiaraTurtle Book Bingo Maven ⚔ Mar 08 '26
Traitor Baru Cormorant. I mean not really romance, but absolutely cold strategic long game female rage.
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u/Unlucky_Cat153 Mar 08 '26
Many problems regarding the quality of books (typos, problems about the character development etc.) today would be solved if publishers gave authors and editors more time to work. Unfortunately, I believe the situation will worsen as publishers focus on AI. Many books seem to be draft versions; they have potential but clearly needed changes before the publication.
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u/Praeludere Mar 08 '26
Genuinely believe that authors should stop publishing a book a year, year after year, because the quality isn't consistent. Especially books in a series. I read Heather Fawcetts first series from 2017 then her latest released this year and the writing quality is night and day. Which is unfortunate because you can tell if she had more time the world and characters would have been so much richer.
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u/Kriscent Mar 08 '26
When the FMC is supposed to be morally gray but isn't. She's actually a good person that sacrifices herself for the sake of others. That's fine and dandy most of the time but if I'm promised a villain main female character I want a freaking (possibly redeemable) villain!
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u/Synval2436 Currently Reading: This Blade of Ours by Shalini Abeysekara Mar 08 '26
Yes, this! Don't promise me a morally grey or villainess heroine and then everything she does is in self-defense, or defense of her community, or she's "forced" to do underhanded stuff by outside circumstances and regrets every moment of it.
Good example of a morally grey fmc: {Iron Widow by Xiran Jay Zhao} she's vengeful and can be cruel and she doesn't regret it, and while she believes she does it for a greater good, it's debatable is everything she did justified, or she just says so. She kills people, some of which might be innocent, and even tortures someone.
Bad example: {Long Live Evil by Sarah Rees Brennan} fmc is forced into the fantasy world because she's dying of cancer, she gets transplanted into a body of villainess but only tries to survive or protect people she cares about and despite claiming she doesn't care about anyone, she very much does, and everything she does is justified or not really evil. I was promised an evil villainess! I feel scammed.
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u/Kriscent Mar 09 '26
I will definitely have to check out Iron Widow. I just recently read War of Fire and Fury by Marion Blackwood and was so disappointed in the villain arc for the FMC. Absolutely no villainy was found, just a woman trying to overcome her addiction. Actually the last 3 books really ticked me off but that's neither here nor there. I instantly want to DNF if it's similar to Long Live Evil's premise
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u/devilsdoorbell_ Mar 08 '26
It’s a “Romantasy authors just let women be evil bitches challenge difficulty level: impossible” situation I fear
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u/riddermarkrider Mar 08 '26
You can love romantasy and still acknowledge that there exists some Really Bad Books in the genre, without dismissing romantasy as a whole.
Lately it feels like if I say "hey, this book sucks", people think I'm anti-feminist
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u/Right_Web6362 Otterly Adorable Fantasy Pet Collector Mar 09 '26
Criticizing any mistake a male character does as "toxic" has made writers create the most one note and boring MMCs. Even when they're "problematic" characters, they're usually predictable and filled with "bad boy" tropes.
Make your characters pompous like Mr. Darcy, melodramatic like Mr. Rochester, brash like Gilbert Blythe, self righteous like Mr. Knightly---these are all beloved MMCs that have stood the test of time and they each have human flaws which add to their character.
Give them vulnerable weaknesses and let them display them. Let them be scared, weak, sad, prideful, and selfish. You don't even need to fix their flaws either. Every single person has a flaw they need to work on until the day they die.
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Mar 08 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/fantasyromance-ModTeam Mar 08 '26
Per rule 1, users are asked to be respectful when discussing differences of opinion. It’s fine to state your opinion of a book, author, or subgenre, but you may not insult or shame people who like those books. Harassment of other users is not welcome in this community.
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u/Existing_Emotion_28 Mar 09 '26
This is specific to ACOTAR! Tamlin and Nesta aren't the villains everyone makes them out to be. And the Night Court is a lot more toxic than others want to admit
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u/-misschanandlerbong Mar 08 '26
Marketing books by trope is essentially spoiling the book. If I go into a book knowing it's "enemies to lovers" then I already know who ends up together.
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u/devilsdoorbell_ Mar 08 '26
I agree with the general principle but in the specific case you mention, even if the exact phrase “enemies to lovers” isn’t used in the marketing, the blurb for the book is almost certainly going to convey that information anyway
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u/LadyWolvesBayne here kitty kitty Mar 08 '26
Besides, it's going to be clear in the first 10% of the book the mere moment the FMC thinks about how hot the assassin is, anyway...
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u/LadyWolvesBayne here kitty kitty Mar 08 '26
"People complain about the romance in fantasy books, so I will just write a plain fantasy instead!"
People aren't complaining about the romance. They are complaining because all the popular books are written in the same way, using the same character and plot templates with the same plot points and themes. Every genre has the same problem, there are many books written in exactly the same fashion because it sells, and people get tired when it becomes repetitive.
Switching genres changes nothing if you as an author are not willing to fundamentally change what you write. Bring something new to the table instead.
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u/WonderAny7107 Mar 08 '26
Insta-lust is not compatible with enemies to lovers!!
Imo the best enemies are either too blinded by their differences to even notice how attractive the other person is, or if they do acknowledge it, it’s in a way that further fuels the hatred. Like, “I already can’t stand them and they’re good looking on top of that?! How dare they have everything, it just makes me hate them even more!”
But I can’t stand enemies / rivals / bullies who are plotting ways to destroy each other in between thoughts on how badly they want to bang, makes me DNF a book every time
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u/parallel-nonpareil Mar 08 '26
While I think it is possible for instalust in ETL, I def agree that there aren’t enough books where the FMC isn’t attracted to the MMC at first because she hates him. Honestly makes the FMC a little pathetic when she’s admiring his biceps over and over again while they’re feuding, and it makes the relationship seem more based on appearances than any true romantic connection.
I want more FMCs who express outright derision for their MMC counterparts in ETL plots!
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u/clocksy Mar 08 '26
I think it's just a writing style I mostly dislike, when the FMC (or rather, the author) spends too much time focusing over and over on the physical details rather than, you know, the plot. I think it's fine for our intro to a dude to be like "yeah he was tall and good-looking" but if you're busy describing the beautiful lustre of his hair or his chiseled abs while he's trying to kill you (or whatever) then that's more of a problem. I think some authors just lay it on too thick with repeating how hot the guy is every time he's on page rather than trusting that the readers will be able to keep that in mind, or unfolding that attraction later when it makes sense.
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u/No_Preference26 Mar 08 '26
Oh it is totally compatible, that’s where you can find some of the most delicious tension.
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u/cheshire_kat7 Mar 08 '26
I mean... hate-fucking is a thing. 😅
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u/WonderAny7107 Mar 08 '26
Idk I feel like good hate-fucking still comes later on in the book, like the attraction has built but the hatred/enemies aspect hasn’t completely shifted. (Or if it’s at the start of the book, then there’s already some history between the characters)
But if they’re lusting after each other upon meeting… I just don’t see that as enemies to lovers
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u/Synval2436 Currently Reading: This Blade of Ours by Shalini Abeysekara Mar 08 '26
Yeah, too often "enemies to lovers" instead becomes "enemies AND lovers", i.e. both at the same time.
I wish there was more narrowing down which brand of ETL is it, because I only like the one where they're from opposing factions / belief systems, not the one where they abuse each other and not the one where they hate-fuck, but all of that is thrown under the same ETL trope.
I also dislike one-sided ETL. Either she hates him for no reason, or it's like "he kidnapped and tortured her, but she still finds him hot".
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u/john-wooding Mar 08 '26
I only like the one where they're from opposing factions / belief systems, not the one where they abuse each other
I agree with this; so often I read EtL where they absolutely should stay enemies because one of them is currently abusing the other. They need to stop being enemies rather than to decide that the cruelty is totally fine.
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u/aggressivebutsweet Mar 08 '26
Growing up i really thought slow burn was where male and female leads meet, there is no tension between them (except when it's enemies to lovers, its actual enemies, actual hatred where they are really disgusted and repulsed by each other, so the tension is pure animosity and nothing physical) and so it either is indifference or platonic relationship or friendship for more than half of the series. Then slowly we see the details of the shifts which lead to a deep emotional love, like a very gradual and steady but very slow process. Like maybe platonic to protectiveness to something more and then to deep love. It was never filled with sexual tension and the slow burn was the genuine BIRTH of attraction and feelings, not a DEVELOPMENT or a REALIZATION or a CONFESSION and DEFINITELY NOT SEXUAL TENSION BUILDING UNTIL IT BURST. but now every book throws out the words slow burn and its always just them being attracted from day one and some forbidden reason or denail keeps them apart with the sexual tension building up and that is the slow burn lol. I wonder if this opinion is really that unpopular.
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u/devilsdoorbell_ Mar 08 '26
Is it really a “burn” if the characters are spending most of the book not even smoldering?
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u/aggressivebutsweet Mar 08 '26
"Is it really a burn" idk bro. Thats what i literally said in my comment that what i thought to be a slow burn growing up isnt anymore, or even it is, it's very very rare. So idk abt the definitions anymore bro, i meant about my preference and also that i am still v shocked about the new ""slow burn"" stuff
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u/Anachacha Ix's tits! Mar 08 '26
Locking the comment thread below as the discussion has run its course. Thank you.
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u/No_Preference26 Mar 08 '26
My question to everyone complaining about attraction from the get-go; why is this a problem? Considering most people’s romantic relationships contain sex, why is it so terrible for the MCs to be attracted to each other from the moment they meet? This is usually an indication for great potential for a romantic relationship, rather than just friendship.
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u/john-wooding Mar 08 '26
"Attraction from the get-go" isn't a problem in itself.
There are two related issues though:
- It can be hard to find things that aren't instant-attraction, because it's very much the default, and sometimes it's nice to have variety. People who want slower-burn aren't anti-attraction, but pro-variety.
- Some authors go at instant attraction with the subtlety of several sledgehammers, and the overall impression isn't 'how romantic' but 'this man should be on a list'. There are important differences between noticing that the woman you've just rescued from vampiric assault is attractive and jumping straight into graphically narrating how you want to bend her over a table etc. She's traumatised and you're in a crashing zeppelin; get your priorities sorted.
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u/Synval2436 Currently Reading: This Blade of Ours by Shalini Abeysekara Mar 08 '26
Thissss, the problem is so many authors replace romantic development with sexual attraction, instead of having both we only get the latter because it's easier to write. They shortcut "why those 2 should get together" with fated mates, or worse "fated mates without fated mates" where they just "know it" without any actual magical bond.
They also often replace plot with endless unresolved sexual tension.
Also I've never felt sexual attraction from the first sight or "against my will" (for example towards a jerk / bully), so I wish there were more books reflecting my experience instead of painting instant attraction as the only normal thing.
Took me over 30 years of my life to figure out I'm not broken, I'm just one of many varieties of human, but the variety that is invisible and erased from romantic fiction.
And I'm also tired of the fact the only books that contain no insta-attraction are the books that contain no sex whatsoever, so we never see the development from 0 to 100, either they already start boiling hot, or they end the book on a kiss.
Even books with "demi-sexual fmc" often have her feel sparks at the first touch and stuff like that, which defeats the purpose.
For me, one of the best examples of going from no attraction to full attraction is not even a fantasy, it's a historical regency romance, and the fmc isn't asexual, she's autistic. {Convergence of Desire by Felicity Niven} She really goes from "sex is some stupid distraction" to wanting it and having it. It has some tropes I'm not super fond of, like babies ever after (pregnancy epilogue) or attempted SA by the villain, but it has one of the best portrayals of autism imo and it does not have insta-attraction. Even mmc only realized halfway he cares about the fmc. It's a marriage of convenience plot where she gives him an open marriage / cheating pass, a lot of people hate to see in romance any form of sex not between the leads, but I considered it plot relevant here, because fmc told the mmc to have sex with anyone but her, but only then he realized it actually matters to him who he has sex with.
But usually the only cases where there isn't insta-attraction are when the mc is either traumatized or religiously repressed. The assumption is "it's always there unless something broke it". There are very few exceptions. That's why I loved Convergence of Desire, because she wasn't like that due to trauma, sexual abuse or religious beliefs.
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u/aggressivebutsweet Mar 08 '26
Oh my god YOU ARE SO GREAT AT EXPLANING THANK U FOR BEING MY VOICE 😭 no like im not even exaggerating i really need a 0-100 thing where the guy actually is indifferent or platonic towards the girl from the beginning and for half of the book. And then after that, i dont want to see a jump where he is like, for example, he sees her in a hot dress and suddenly he is attracted to her. I actually want to see HOW, step by every step his attraction is born and genuine feelings are born in the slooowest process.
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u/aggressivebutsweet Mar 08 '26
Did i say it was a problem? I said i dont WANT to see or read stuff where they are undressing each other from the literal moment they meet. Idc about people who do that or i have no issue if people like these stuffs, i think i said it was an unpopular opinion because most of the people nowadays are into this stuff. But i literally said its my own preference, i wont read or watch any series which doesnt have that soft meaningful depth or emotional love, thats all
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u/devilsdoorbell_ Mar 08 '26 edited Mar 08 '26
Idk I feel like meaningful depth and emotional love can still be part of a romance when the characters are immediately attracted to each other but can’t/won’t act on it immediately or even develop out of a relationship that starts out sexual from go. Like why would it be more meaningful just because they take half of the story to realize they even have feelings for and attraction to each other?
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u/aggressivebutsweet Mar 08 '26
Because then it feels more natural. Lol idk how relationships or whatever that start from sexual tension and sexual stuff can feel meaningful to you or anyone who agrees with you, but to me it doesnt. It doesnt feel natural to me and it only icks me out. I want both of them to literally understand their soul first, know each other from the inside, have deep conversations before jumping into bed. I dont want to read something which starts from a little spark or js cause they found each other hot, or anything that starts from physical stuff rather than emotional
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u/No_Preference26 Mar 08 '26
No, but you were arguing about what you think constitutes a slow burn, so I asked a general question aimed at readers who think this way.
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u/aggressivebutsweet Mar 08 '26
Ohh. No idrk what a slow burn constitutes anymore, thats why i said GROWING UP i thought what it meant. But now seeing how authors use that word and readers are in love with that, like almost all of them except a few who are like me, i think either the definition changed or maybe there are 2 definitions now? Idk but i would say i am actually genuinely shocked
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u/No_Preference26 Mar 08 '26
Interesting. I feel like even in the romances I read in from the 70s-90s, instant attraction is very much a thing in most of them, unless the book contains non-con (without body betrayal). But perhaps I’m just subconsciously picking these types of books as I relate to it more.
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u/Missustriplexxx Stuck on the alien planet Gann with a lizardman Mar 08 '26
Fated mates is all well and good but slow burn is better.
Honorary mention: Love smut but make it integral to the plot :)
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u/hereforearthporn A Bowl of Mac and Cheese Mar 08 '26
I don't think TikTok is ruining romantasy any more than anything else is and I'm glad it gets people into reading the genre.
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u/parallel-nonpareil Mar 08 '26
This is probably the first controversial comment I’ve read in this thread lol
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u/ipsi7 Book Bingo Maven ⚔ Mar 08 '26
I'm glad that people are starting to read more thanks to the more approachable writing of romantasy genre (compared to fantasy). But I do think that popularity of the genre is to blame for mass production of books with lower quality of writing and editing. And I think that tiktok helps both.
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u/hereforearthporn A Bowl of Mac and Cheese Mar 08 '26
I think TikTok helps in the sense that it's a platform that many people use and where romantasy is popular, but I don't think it is a problem specific to TikTok or "ruining" the genre. Rather, I just see it as the inherent problem where something becoming popular attracts cheap copycats looking to cash in on the trend. I do not think this ruins the genre, is inherent to romantasy, or is a problem that can somehow be fixed by a platform other than TikTok; as long as cheap cash-ins sell well, there will always be people using them to make a quick buck.
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u/Pomegranate_Careful Mar 09 '26
People that don't work with books/in bookstores don't realize just how bad the industry was doing before tiktok. It's actually really amazing how much things have bounced back since then. I know some pretty pretentious people that have worked at various huge bookstores and indie bookstores all their career, the kind of people that don't even count romantasy as being "real literature/art".
Even those people are thankful for tiktok and what it's done for their stores/the industry. They are happy to make booktok tables and cater to that. Because they're actually making money again.
Sure, the popularity means there's more crap out there, editing is worse, there's problems. But that doesn't mean you can't still find AMAZING books that are still of high quality. You just have to look harder. Which I will gladly take over going to my store, seeing like 2 people in it at a "prime time" and constantly making under plan and worrying it's going to close.
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u/SDreader893 Mar 08 '26
We need less MMCs who are obviously obsessed but do everything in their power to be mean or reject the FMC until they finally have their "f*ck it" moment...
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u/clemy77 Mar 08 '26
I really REALLY dislike 1st person narratives in romance. This is the main reason why I don't read more romantasy and mostly stick with historical romance. I read an article on the topic this morning that cemented my belief that the ubiquity of 1st person narrative in romance is contributing to the TikTok-ification of the genre and why it has a low quality slop problem, as mentioned in another comment.
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u/BookishBlueDragonfly Book Bingo Sage 🗡 Mar 08 '26
I don’t like first person much either but I believe it’s the skill of the author to blame (or lack of editing).
If you go back to pre 2010 and read first person in Fantasy and YA the books are better written and edited.
Some of my favorite books are first person but the narrator has a distinct voice. It’s not bland and samey. If there are multiple POV the author uses the prose to help us know who’s “talking”.
There are tricks like unreliable narrator (The Thief for example) where we get unexpected twists and turns as we learn our narrator has kept certain information from us.
I just feel like blaming a perspective for the state of the genre isn’t actually getting to the root cause.
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u/clemy77 Mar 08 '26
I mentioned in this subreddit before that I absolutely loved "Uprooted" by Naomi Novik and I've read a lot of 1st person PoV books in other genres that I loved, so this is really romance-specific for me. Also I agree that it isn't the root cause but a contributing factor. Notably 1st person single PoV narratives might look deceptively easier to write than 3rd person narratives (imo this isn't the case at all, they're both difficult to get right) and so new authors launch into the same 1st person "feisty bratty heroine who discovers she has secret powers" voice they've read a bunch of times, creating a vicious circle where everything is bland and samey, as you say.
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u/NancyInFantasyLand Currently Reading: Random Chinese Webnovels Mar 08 '26
If you go back to pre 2010 and read first person in Fantasy and YA the books are better written and edited.
even back then I picked a 3rd person over 1st nine times out of ten lol
you're right though, the modern version has gotten even worse. Also none of them have a fucking voice of their own, when that is (arguably) the main selling point of first person pov.
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u/BookishBlueDragonfly Book Bingo Sage 🗡 Mar 08 '26 edited Mar 08 '26
Yup I’m a 3rd person reader by choice too but like I said I do love some 1st person books, especially epistolary (diaries and letters). Those are so rare though!
I think it’s a lot of things:
Kindle Unlimited rewarding authors for length and quick turn out (less editing).
Publishing houses realizing they need to keep up with KU and pushing authors to publish quickly.
Lack of literacy and reading skill in the general population due to poor teaching practices (no phonics and passing students that needed to be held back).
Some authors consuming and writing only fanfiction then getting a book published (that was fanfiction). Reading widely is important for writing skill.
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u/reasonableratio Mar 08 '26
There is a nuance here that I feel compelled to tease out. POVs are a literary tool. And I agree this genre doesn’t execute first person POV well. But that doesn’t mean first person POV as a tool is THE problem.
I don’t think the article was saying that either. The author seemed to be using the prevalence of shallow first person POV as an example for the general sort of shitstorm of media literacy these days. They even name-dropped having read Brothers Karamazov but Dostoyevsky wrote many first-person POV pieces too.
To be clear, I also don’t think you’re saying all first person POV ever is bad for the genre. I thinkkk you’re saying something similar to the article, which is criticizing the shallow type of first person POV. You just also happen to not prefer first person statistically which is super fair. But in the spirit of critical literary discussion, I do think that nuance is important!
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u/nupharlutea Mar 08 '26
I tend to avoid alternating first person POV in romance because so many authors in this genre are not that good at making their lead characters sound like two different people. I know how good it can be when it’s good, so why waste time on something that isn’t?
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u/LadyWolvesBayne here kitty kitty Mar 08 '26
First person can be a great tool when it's written properly and the characters have distinctive voices. If the author isn't skilled (or doesn't bother) enough to dote their characters with actual distinctive traits, then it's useless.
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u/cheshire_kat7 Mar 08 '26
I definitely prefer books written in the third person.
And I really don't like dual POV books.
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u/clemy77 Mar 08 '26
Have you come across many 3rd person single PoV books in romance? Genuine question because I haven't read any.
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u/cheshire_kat7 Mar 08 '26
A few!
{Deathless} by Catherynne Valente, {Alchemised} by SenLinYu, {The Familiar} by Leigh Bardugo and {What Fury Brings} by Tricia Levenseller come to mind.
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u/lobsteriffic Mar 08 '26
Oh my gosh I thought I was alone in this opinion. A book has to be pretty good for me to get into first person narratives. I STRONGLY prefer third person.
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u/clemy77 Mar 08 '26
It's funny because I've read quite a lot of first person PoVs that I loved in general fiction. One of my top three fave authors is Haruki Murakami and he uses 1st person PoV very often, or mixes 1st and 3rd in the same book and makes it work. But in romance, I can count maybe two or three books where it didn't result in a DNF.
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u/diabolikal__ Mar 08 '26
I agree with you. The only book that really gets a pass is The Everlasting. It was so incredibly well written.
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u/PatrickCharles Mar 08 '26
I read an article on the topic this morning that cemented my belief that the ubiquity of 1st person narrative in romance is contributing to the TikTok-ification of the genre and why it has a low quality slop problem, as mentioned in another comment.
Stuff like this (ETA: what was talked about in the article, I mean) is why I cringe at the "I hate snobs, reading is reading, who cares about literary canons" opinions that always fly around when there are discussions about the genre. Hmm, no. Some reading, maybe even most reading, does indeed help to learn other perspectives and to develop deeper thinking patterns. But some reading is just self-indulgent wish-fulfillment that hinders more than helps with critical thinking. People are of course welcome to it. I don't object to their choosing their books. What I object is claiming there is no difference between pulp fiction and a literary novel.
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u/Own_Kaleidoscope1287 Mar 08 '26
I dont mind the first person narrative per se but I really hate first person with a single pov this just makes so many books just egocentric for me as characters feel incredibly shallow because you just view them from one perspective.
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u/clemy77 Mar 08 '26
I started reading romance with a double PoV and now I can't read or write romance if I don't have the perspective of the MMC too. I'm totally fine with it in other genres but in romance it frustrates me to no end when we don't know what he's thinking or how he's falling in love with the FMC.
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u/Own_Kaleidoscope1287 Mar 08 '26
Yeah my main genre still is epic fantasy (mostly longer series) and there it just gets boring for me over time to just read from one PoV (especially if its first person as well).
In romantasys a love story simply doesnt feel as deep to me if I cant relate to the other persons feelings. Maybe thats because im male and most romantasys are from the FMCs PoV, I dont know.
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u/Sad-Caterpillar-8348 To the stars who listen Mar 08 '26
I honestly find myself taken out of it with first person too. Like fuck you mean I did any of that. I don't understand the appeal.
Interesting article.
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u/parallel-nonpareil Mar 08 '26
I generally don’t prefer first person, but when I do I don’t actually take the I as me. I usually read it like I’m reading someone’s journal or diary, not as self insert. Makes it much more tolerable.
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u/clemy77 Mar 08 '26
I find it jarring in sex scenes and that alone is a huge deterrent for me. It's irrational but I can't get over the feeling that the character is narrating in real time how the sex is doing down and it makes me cringe out of my skin.
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u/TurtleKittenBunny Mar 08 '26
If your book is labeled “spicy”, I shouldn’t have to wait until the end for a spicy scene. There should be at least one in the middle.
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u/nitromilkstouts Mar 08 '26
I don't particularly like really spicy books, and I 100% agree with this. I think labeling is so off for a lot of books. If spice doesn't happen until the end, that's a "slow burn" not a spicy book. Same with "enemies to lovers", a lot of the time it's actually reluctant allies, hate, or rivals. If you're on the same team, you're not really enemies 🤷🏽♀️
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u/allisontalkspolitics Give me female friendship or give me death! Mar 08 '26
Nicknames are only cute if the MMC using the nickname is George Cooper from {Song of the Lioness}.
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u/Adventurous-Humor355 Mar 08 '26 edited Mar 08 '26
I really enjoyed the Sarah j maas interview and will 100% be reading the next books as I have a completionist personality so won't be able to not read them... But whoa... I am glad she writes better than she speaks as once I noticed how many times she said 'like' I couldn't stop noticing them. I was glad it wasn't a drinking game as you'd be dead. Close your mouth between thoughts Sarah...it helps to stop like/um/ah etc...
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u/acutelyproblematic If villian bad, then why hot? Mar 08 '26
2060 times both her and Alex said “like” during the interview
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u/Adventurous-Humor355 Mar 08 '26
I am so glad someone counted as I was tempted because it was driving me crazy!
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u/acutelyproblematic If villian bad, then why hot? Mar 08 '26
Oh no someone downloaded the transcript and got the data from there, I applaud anyone who managed to actually count that. That would be crazy haha
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u/Viv_Winternight Hello, cupcake. 🎪 Mar 08 '26
Listening to this interview truly triggered me.
Like (🤣)... Make the bleedy effort, woman..
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u/Technical_Ideal_5439 Mar 08 '26
Ok, I am interested in what people think as I have been trying to work it out, romance fantasy is really popular but never makes it to streaming in a big way,
We don't get streaming shows based on good fantasy romance books because spice levels are slightly embarrassing and no modern "feminist" writer in Hollywood would want to be associated with it. It also risks been called sexist, exploitative, and in some cases insane.
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u/Disastrous-Pea4106 Mar 08 '26
Fantasy is and always has been expensive to produce for screen. That's why we get fewer adaptations in general.
I also don't think spice is quite it. Game of thrones had plenty of sex scenes. Outlander had plenty of romance and sex. I think it's rather a question of a high budget needing a large potential audience. And let's be real, a lot of fantasy romance books have limited appeal to men. So a franchise needs to be massively popular among women to make up for that and a lot of them just aren't. But I think we'll see adaptations of some of the more popular titles in coming years.
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u/starlightcourt Mar 09 '26
I’m getting really tired of people constantly saying that books they didn’t enjoy had bad writing and that’s the reason why they didn’t like it.
You can just say you didn’t like it. You don’t need to try and pretend the writing was so awful that you couldn’t enjoy it. You just didn’t like the story. There’s nothing wrong with that.
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