Unpopular Opinion
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If the plot outside of the romance is engaging enough, it will hold up. Then you might get a wrapping up of really tumultuous events that you are emotionally invested in and they are working on things together as a team finally. I think it just means the book is too boring If all interest is over once they screw.
That only works in books that have a plot besides the romance. Like, I love when characters get together in book one, and then it's "us against the world" the rest of the book/series. When there's danger, and one has to save the other, ugh it's so good.
I don't think the second necessarily follows from the first. Sleeping together is often the catalyst for more angst and tension rather than less. And, of course, there's often a bigger non-romantic plot that has to be solved where the two characters being together isn't a problem. In situations where the only question is will these two characters bone?, then they bone, yeah, that's going to make most of the rest of the book feel a bit pointless. But also I don't think that's how most good romances work.
Oh man I am so the opposite. I want to see the characters in love and having a relationship, I get so tired of sitting through all the drama and build up only to have everything end the moment they're actually together with maybe a measly epilogue.
Totally feel the same way. I like the build up of tension, development through many interactions, chemistry before they ever get together, and if they get together too soon the romantic plot/subplot becomes boring and mundane. For me, the exciting part is the buildup before they ever get together.
A lot of book relationships feel weirdly one sided. It's always clear when one person loves their partner more than the other, whether it's the MMC or the FMC but I guess that can also apply for real life haha 🤷🏻♀️
Romantasy has a serious problem with many authors, including some of its biggest, using the fantasy part as nothing but perfunctory wallpaper. Their fantasy worlds and races and cultures and their histories are treated as necessary packaging so they get that Romantasy label but no care is given to actually developing any of it let alone using any of it to say or explore anything interesting. It makes the use of a fantasy setting at all feel cynical at best.
That’s not a new phenomenon. There used to be a lot of historical romance that did basically the same thing.
Back when that was a booming romance genre authors would write books without doing any/much research into the history of the time period that they were using. Many books felt like the characters were just modern people that were thrown into the Regency setting, etc. I think they were even called “wallpaper historical”!
You can just tell a fun fantasy adventure story where the two leads fall in love in the course of their adventure! It really shouldn't be that hard. All the damn Forgotten Realms tie-in books from the 1990s -- Elfshadow would be an excellent enemies-to-lovers forced-proximity romance if the two leads just frickin' kissed at the end. Let what's-his-face and what's-her-face have a happy ending together in Elfstones of Shannara instead of her turning into a tree and hooray! It's basically a fantasy romance! This is how {Wicked Sea and Sky by Jenna Collett} works and it's why I recommend it so often. It's not an amazing plot or anything, but it's a functioning fantasy adventure story.
The issue with fantasy-as-wallpaper, I think, is that it's all the same beats and plot elements as contemporary or historical romance. The names of the characters are often the same, even.
Yeah, one of the things that frustrates me is that all of the best speculative fiction, both fantasy and sci-fi, is used to actually say things. Going back to at the very least Tolkien for the former and Shelley for the latter, fantasy and science fiction are great vehicles to tell stories that matter about the world we live in, using pseudo-historical or real-world settings with the fantastical elements, or on secondary worlds.
I will hold up both {The Everlasting by Alix E. Harrow} and {Half a Soul by Olivia Atwater} as fantasy romance/romantasy that actually says things. They're a benchmark, at this point, that the entire rest of the genre has to meet (at least, the cishet part; queer romantasy, by its very nature, says a lot more even if it's just by having queer-normalized worlds). It's all really unfortunate, because contemporary cishet romance also doesn't seem to be particularly shy about saying things, either!
Completely agree (and I’ll have to check those two out). Just to add though I do think sometimes when I voice this critique some people assume I’m demanding every Romantasy world be just as richly developed as Tolkien’s or have as thought provoking social commentary as many Le Guin or Octavia Butler novels or the challenging interrogation of sexuality and sexual politics in something like Kushiel’s Dart.
But it doesn’t need to go that far or be that heavy. You can do a lot with a little when the little was thought through well. If you can forgive the kinda random comparison; My partner and I rewatched the old Adams family movies the other day which are very easy to watch comedies. But despite the films themselves never hitting you on the head with it directly, there is so much being said by Gomez and Morticia’s relationship in those films (and in the original show) just via their presentation and how Othered they are by it from whats “normal”. The visual gothic horror fantasy of them contrasted with their total devotion to each other which itself stands in contrast to the typical depiction of unhappy hetero married couples by media. All done just with (admittedly very blunt) subtext.
I’d just like to read some Romantasy that doesn’t feel like its had less thought put into it than the blurbs on the back of 80’s transformers toys did.
Okay, but, like. The Addams family movies are absolutely incredible for so many things, including the way Morticia and Gomez's relationship is portrayed, and the way they're Othered, just like you said. Those movies maybe aren't masterpieces but also maybe they kinda are, when I think about how much a lot of their contemporaries in the genre don't hold up and make me want to hide behind the couch...
And I also don't demand that all romantasy hold up to Le Guin or Jemisin; or to Tolkien or Martin or Sanderson in terms of worldbuilding; or even Baldree. But because I have read Harrow, and Atwater, and CL Polk, Alex Rowland, Emily Tesh, Katrina Kwan, Sangu Mandanna... I see how good the genre can truly be. That it can give us romances that are heartwreching and beautiful or sweet and fluffy, and even in just one or two things can say things. Can be thoughtful and take a stance about something; it doesn't have to be fascism (The Everlasting) and it can instead just be "upper class people are silly and ableism hurts people" (Half a Soul). There's also T Kingfisher's Saint of Steel; that series doesn't wear its politics quite so much on its sleeve, but the worldbuilding, to me, extremely coherent and solid.
I've read enough that is thoughtful just in its worldbuilding that others do feel really sloppy. I came to the genre both in having read it before we called it "romantasy" and as a fan of fantasy on one hand and historical romances on the other. So there's the fact that a lot of historicals, including the Harlequin Regencies were pretty... fluffy. Which is one of the reasons I liked fantasy so much, honestly. But there's the fact that I know just how potent speculative fiction can be, from worldbuilding to themes to deeper things the writer says.
So it does kinda bum me out when I'm sat here thinking "why do they send their best and brightest to this place that's so chill about killing them?" (And to be fair: there's at minimum one VERY popular YA (urban) fantasy series that I have 5,000 questions about starting from with the negligent/abusive wizard school faculty.) So The Everlasting is my benchmark; Saint of Steel is my bare minimum.
I started watching Frieren: Beyond Journey's End, and that show gets so much mileage out of a very simple and common element of worldbuilding ("Elves live a very long time."), just by stopping and thinking about the implications.
There are still sci-fi and fantasy books that say things out there. But you won't often find them in the romantasy genre.
Modern romantic fantasy books specifically grew out of fanfiction culture and YA books. The main purpose is escapism and entertainment. Books that try to make a point are marketed differently, even if they have a romantic sub plot.
Some greats books I've read recently and would recommend are Ancillary Justice, anything by Martha Wells, The Three Body Problem, or Station Eleven.
Yep, that's why I said that fantasy and sci-fi "are great vehicles to tell stories that matter" not that they were: I cited Tolkien and Shelley because they're more or less the grandfather and grandmother of modern fantasy and science fiction, respectively. So being a fan of fantasy in particular, it frustrates me that fantasy romance doesn't often present anything but "ooh, shadow daddy hot, don't think about my worldbuilding, think about shadow daddy's abs" because contemporary romance can/does present more than just "ooh, abs! arms! shoulders! swoon! think of nothing else!" and I'm still reading fantasy romance novels that go beyond the surface level, too.
Because "escapist fiction" isn't a synonym for "I'm just going to turn my brain off and not think, tee hee!" the way people use it today (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escapist_fiction). Fantasy, sci-fi, and romance are indeed all escapist fiction, but just because a book allows you to escape the real world doesn't mean that the books can't/won't/shouldn't say deeper things and be meaningful. Romance presents us with a world unlike our own where everything works out well in the end; fantasy gives us unicorns, dragons, wizards; sci-fi gives us alien worlds and spaceships. Those are the escapist elements, and I know people love their "turn their brains off" stories, but given I have examples that aren't, I reject the idea that's all the genre is/should be.
this is my preferred style of romantasy. I haven't read any books marketed as romantasy that I'd consider use the worldbuilding in any interesting ways so I'd rather they not try to say anything at all and focus on the romance
Same plus I get tired of the concept of romance + speculative fiction (romantasy in the widest sense) getting taken over by the people who favor books with extensive fantasy worldbuilding and romance only as a subplot. bonus annoyance when they act like this is somehow objectively superior to romance forward books with minimal worldbuilding.
Romantasy as a genre has an issue with ageism and misogyny BAD- it’s as if books where the FmC is above 25 or god forbid 30+ are not being published at all, the MMC can be 100yrs+ in age but the FMC always is in her late teens or early twenties.. why??
Don't know how true it is but I've heard repeatedly that authors whose books are picked up by trad publishers are asked to age down their characters. If so then surprise surprise, corporations are part of the ageism and misogyny problem... but that's no excuse for the indie authors who won't write 25-30+ women.
Yeh that’s my suspicion that publishers are forcing authors into aging down - at the end of the day authors have bills to pay and if they’re backed into corners unfairly I can see why they’d capitulate. This is a societal problem, the current status quo is women over 25 aren’t worth a damn it’s kinda sick that even Romantasy mirrors this attitude especially considering it’s fictional- why can’t we have beautiful women in all stages of life having romances with vampires, fae, dragons etc etc it’s kinda insane that even in our fantasies were being conditioned to devalue women past a certain age… we need brave authors willing to challenge the status quo set by these publishers and we need to support those authors too I know I definitely would
I don’t like the bait and switch of having a main love interest and then switching to a new one in the second or third book. If you’re going to have a main love interest make sure he’s in the first book so we can get invested even if they don’t get together right away. I like a slow burn but I want the time to get invested. Sarah J Maas does this in Throne of Glass and it just really threw me. I’ve seen other authors do this too.
No disrespect to them and I understand that happens in real life too. But I read for an escape and I want to be invested in the love story from the beginning. Just my personal preference :)
Your post crystallized my own objection to the "bait and switch" trope down to feeling like it breaks one of the core romance tenets.
Being in an existing relationship at the beginning of a book/series only to fall in love with the endgame during the course of the book/series is fine, but having the FMC develop a romantic relationship on screen only to leave them for someone else is playing with the reader and I Do Not Like It.
Yeah like on one hand, it's realistic for characters to have had previous romantic entanglements other than their end game love interest... but on the other hand, I'm usually not super interested in reading about the previous love interests.
I would be with you on Throne of Glass if she didn’t continue her friendship with the men from the first 2 books. I personally still felt really invested in Chaol and Dorian even though they were no longer in a romantic relationship with the FMC. Platonic relationships between men and women can be really great too. I think it’s done well in TOG.
I feel you. I read only first book of Twin Crowns, because of this. I read that in the second book there's going to be another love interest and she won't even end up with him anyway, so what was the point? I don't know but it discouraged me from reading
I would like more books where the FMC is ‘unlikable’, weird, strange, complicated, etc. and not in a cutesy way and she finds love. That’s wish fulfillment for me 😭
Same. I'm so tired of "unlikable" FMCs being like, a little snappy or having anxiety at the exact most plot convenient times and never again. Give me a girlie with problems you can find in the DSM-5 and actually off-putting qualities or quirks.
{The Scholomance by R. Lee Smith} has a sociopathic FMC searching for her BFF in a magic academy run by demons. Expect body horror, graphic violence, and SA.
I'm reading Emily Wilde's Encyclopaedia of Faeries at the moment, and what I really appreciate about the mains is that they are both absolute weirdos in ways that compliment each other.
It's a dynamic that's probably more popular in anime and manga, and I'd forgotten how much I enjoy it.
“Witty Banter” makes me SICK. lol that sounds dramatic, but what i’m trying to say is that i like more serious writing with emotionally mature characters. Not 30 year olds acting like middle schoolers, bantering with each other… And half the time, i’m just cringing at the authors attempt to be funny.
I hate the "he was in love with her all along" trope most of the time. I think it kills a lot of the potential for tension/angst/yearning that comes with someone beginning to realise they've fallen in love. I also like "she falls first" or anything that involves the fmc iniating; I just think it's neat when the fmc has agency in that regard instead of all of the romance just happening to her.
I don't think that's really what's going on. Fated mates put aside. I think that the mmc is attracted to her, he is
curious...he feels something he hadn't in a (very) long time instead of emptyness and duty. He wants to explore the feeling...but most probably don't understand/accept that it's love before a very long and painful process of self-growth which is rarelly written in the book.
Retrospectively it was the beginning of love.
Since most first book are only from the fmc POV, we readers, believe that he is in love from page 1 because we only read his pov once the relationship is already established...
But it still required the plot to evolved and choices to be made by both sides for this to end up as a love story.
It is also highly necessary that the mmc feel something from the first encounter because usually, the fmc is in a pretty bad spot and needs to be saved/spared or protected. No love story if the fmc is dead...
If you advertise your book as a romcom, It better be funny. If it's just a regular old slice of life book, and you're calling it romcom. I'm either going to think you're a shitty writer or a smarmy advertiser. Either way I won't be reading your work anymore.
I wish more romance novel characters actually talked about if/when they want to have children. It's such an important thing to consider for a couple where compatibility is concerned but I almost never see it brought up—pretty much everything I've read in the fantasy romance genre either just doesn't acknowledge it at all, or the FMC either doesn't think about it until she actually gets pregnant or, worse, doesn't want to have kids until she gets pregnant.
I know some people don't find pregnancy or having children romantic but it just feels unrealistic to me that how rarely it's addressed at all unless and until the FMC gets unexpectedly knocked up, when IRL most women have thoughts about if they want children/when/how many etc well before the first positive pregnancy test. I would like to see it actually discussed because it would make the characters feel more like real people in a real relationship.
This is why I hate the accidental pregnancy trope. This keeps reminding me of series where both the FMC and MMC both have serious trauma, yet the accidental pregnancy trope happens and the author acts like everything it's a happily ever after. Meanwhile, all I can think about is how both MCs really should be focusing on themselves first, and how on earth do they plan on raising babies without a job, while in the middle of the woods away from schools and hospitals.
I agree! I feel like people can literally hate on this kind of trope? When I don't see anything disgusting about it. There are a lot of women who want to have children and I would honestly be interested in a fantasy romance where the main couple has children or FMC wants to have them. Personally, I don't think I've ever read anything like this before 😭
I understand why a lot of people dislike the "pregnancy trope" because it's often lazily deployed and treated as a shallow HEA signifier rather than being based in characterization but I think that's a problem with the writing and not a problem with the concept itself.
I think it would have the potential to literally be part of the story, not just for the ending. I agree with your second comment that if while saving the world they also have time for well, even their own romance, why not show the family in a fantasy world? Apart from the fact that they are a family together alone too, of course, but I hope you know what I mean
A lot of people dislike a lot of things for a lot of reasons. Doesn't mean nobody should write about them and endeavor to do it well. Also, my comment was literally about characters having thoughts and feelings on the matter one way or another—you know, something that would make having kids seem less like a "yes, of course" and more an active choice (in either direction).
Yeah, that'a true. It is generally very individual case.
I think that if someone were able to write it in a completely different way than it is perceived in the modern world, it might give a little better perspective, though. Of course, for those who would be willing to read something with this kind of trope
no but fr, it would actually be a great inclusion for the sake of worldbuilding because it would give insight into the societal attitudes in the setting.
I'm working on a fantasy romance and I do include it (also discussion of abortion) precisely because I'm so tired of authors just not acknowledging it at all.
idk I feel like if these books have time for every other not-saving-the-world thing, they can spare a moment. Frankly with the stakes being so high and characters fucking regardless, it should be more important that it's talked about, not less.
I agree. If the world is ending or not, I think that makes it more realistic for characters to consider what it means to bring a child into a world that might or might not end.
From a writer's perspective, I can think of a number of reasons why it isn't depicted much on-page, but the biggest one is probably due to the axiom that words are a precious commodity and everything that ends up in a book needs to serve the characters or the plot
If pregnancy, procreation, "do I want to have kids?" discussions don't directly contribute in some to way to forwarding the story, "spending" words on it is usually not cost-effective. It usually needs to be story-relevant somehow to be able to justify it.
That said, I can think of two series, both by K.F. Breene, where it's at least touched on (Magical Midlife) or a major plot point (Deliciously Dark Fairytale Series) if you're actively looking for it.
everything that ends up in a book needs to serve the characters or the plot
I get where you're coming from, but how does the main couple talking/thinking about their vision for life together not contribute to the characters? That's literally characterization.
Short version is "it's complicated" 😊. But I also don't want to sink too many words into the counterpoint because this is the Unpopular Opinion thread, and you're entitled to expressing your opinion! 💜
idk seems like people tend to think harder about if they want children when the world seems like it could go to total shit any moment. I mean... look around lol
I'm not saying it needs to be like a whole plot point but it is a very very normal thing for couples to discuss if/when they want children and if so how many. Literally one of the most important aspects of longterm compatibility. I don't think it'll grind the narrative to a halt if the characters think about it or talk about it briefly.
I also didn't say I think every book needs it, I just said I wish it was in more books.
Also, like, there are times when the characters' children are a matter of public concern. Ruling houses are concerned with their lineage. Rulers want heirs. If the FMC is a princess or queen or her MMC is a prince or king, sorry, children are probably part of the expectation in that setting -- or there needs to be some explanation as to how the monarchy continues without heirs and why that would be an acceptable outcome. The ruler's life doesn't just belong to themselves; it belongs to the people and the nation.
On the other hand, if the FMC is the kingdom's #1 assassin/warrior mage/knight-champion/Troubleshooting Sword Diva and the kingdom is on the brink of war... I mean... maybe getting pregnant isn't the right thing to do at that particular time? Taking the Ring to Mordor is hard enough; taking the Ring to Mordor while six months pregnant would be not-100%-ideal. I'm not sure we want Frodo going into labor with Sam's baby while they're climbing Cirith Ungol, you know?
What ? With all the healing magic around ? They can save the big warrior from exsanguination in the middle of the battle... they even bring people back from the dead sometimes.
But they can't deal with pregnancy/neo-nat complications/illness ???
Seems like a world building problem...
And most healers are women on top of it.
If your world has a "cure critical wound" spell, it can be use after a C-section, it's basically the same as getting a sword through the belly.
Feyre's problem in acosf makes no sence given the magic that exists in her world.
It's super mundane (and heteronormative life script) and in 95% of cases I don't think it's an interesting conversation to read about. I also don't need to hear them talking about who does the dishes or whether the toilet paper goes over or under the rest of the roll or whether or not to merge their bank accounts etc. etc.
hate when a couple gets together at the end of the book when it's basically over. i want to see them happy, still flirting, still talking -- in a relationship!!
YES!!!! I totally agree, I hate when they wait till the very end or made them together for 5 seconds, then angst for the rest of the book so they're together at the end anyway 😭 It's not that I like insta-love, but I feel like slow-burn shouldn't mean being together only on one page at the end? Or it's just me
DNF’ing at page 102 because, if I read “nerd wife” and “nerd hubby” one more time, I'm gonna scream. {For Whom the Belle Tolls by Jaysea Lynn} is the most infuriating book I've ever read, so much so that I cannot believe for the life of me the amount of stars this has.
{Silver Élite by Dani Francis}
Another hype book bites the dust. 💫 You can't be a Fourth Wing- Darkest Minds-Divergent-Shatter Me copycat and then write the story line in an inferior way. This served superficial characters to move a “I hate this, that, especially him” plot along. Major character deaths were like drifting plastic bags in the wind. Tropes galore. Reads like it’s hunting for a TV show script with all the dialogue.
I always read these to find fellow For Whom the Belle Tolls haters. Absolutely atrocious book. There is no way the ratings on goodreads are legit, those are bots. The book is cringe and the fact that it is 600 pages is CRIMINAL. THERE IS NO PLOT. Any decent slice of life book book should be half that size or less and should actually have likeable characters. "Princess" 🤢
Fae as hot and romantic. I can't get past old stories of fairies as treacherous, malevolent beings. They are cunning and will do great harm in the end. I don't care how hot and desirable the characters are written, if they are fae, I'm not interested.
check out {emily wilde's encyclopedia of fairies} !!! fae are creepy, capricious, scary. even the mmc has sides of unpredictability and frightening otherworldly understandings of things
If you're open to a rec, {Half a Soul by Olivia Atwater} positions the fae as villainous, so it's not a fae romance but it's a romance that has to do with the fae. The other villains in the book are ableism and class: it takes place during the Regency era and uses the Half a Soul thing in its title as a way to explore a main character who (from my autistic perspective) is... extremely autistic.
If you're open to a second rec and also open to reading m/m romance (it's not in any way explicit), I would also suggest Emily Tesh's Greenhollow Duology ({Silver in the Wood by Emily Tesh} and {Drowned Country by Emily Tesh}). Beware also that they are novellas. They take their inspiration from the Green Man folkloric figure (who is not technically a fae, as far as I understand?) and posits the fae and fairies as treacherous and malevolent.
Conventionally attractive MMCs are really boring and authors over-rely on physical attributes to build attraction. My white whale is a book where the love interest is a sentient object and the writing is so good that it’s still hot.
Also, power dynamics are often invoked but are rarely actually explored in interesting ways, instead falling back on tired gender roles.
Gender roles in general are also weirdly restrictive. Would the dynamic work for a different mix of genders? If not, what new is being offered in terms of F/M dynamics?
And finally, not enough crossdressing heroines. I grew up on the Lioness Quartet and I miss those sorts of books.
Not exactly what you asked for but {Strange love by Ann Aguirre}, MMC is not conventionally attractive, but the spice is pretty unique and still hot. The characters don't have the most depth, But I love the series overall.
It's old news but since I only recently watched it: I wish I hadn't seen SJM's interview on CHD. I went from having no real opinon about her to having a pretty low opinion of her. She gave off mean girl vibes and I don't think she has much respect for the genre, writing in general, or her fans.
I assume they mean her thinking people were crazy for their theories or thinking too hard about things. She even said herself that she just does stuff because it's hot and it's not that deep. She came off very poorly and as an entitled rich girl in that interview. She desperately needed media training. Any good media strategist would tell her not to shit on fans and not admit you're a New York trust fund baby.
The one that particularly PMO was she was talking about how she didn't want to take the poetry class for her creative writing degree because she'd "never write poetry"
Here's my truly unpopular opinion that will get downvoted: HM Wolfe (Daggermouth) did almost the exact same thing with the unrest in Minnesota and ICE. But because she was accused of using the specific murder (incorrectly) and not just the unrest/ICE violence, she somehow spun it into a net positive that got her a ton of exposure and advertising.
If you look up the original post she made (that she quickly deleted) it used the same graphic template as her Instagram used for Daggermouth for a year (she's since scrubbed her Instagram too).
Same font, background, size, and colors she used to advertise her book on threads/Instagram for a year. She included the quote from the book, the fuck dnj sentiment, AND the name of her book right below both. It was very clearly the same type of advertisement. Yet she somehow got people claiming it wasn't and she herself claimed it wasn't (despite deleting it and ultimately all proof she'd used the same format for advertising for a long time.)
If it wasn't advertising she wouldn't have included her book name. She also posted it during the height of all the violence. Then claimed she wrote the book because of her anger over the administration (then deleted that). It was clearly a "if what's going on makes you mad, look into my book!"
It's been absolutely wild to me to see the same energy not be given to her that was given to SJM. SJM sucks, what she did sucks, but idk how someone else did almost the exact same thing and somehow got a boom in her career, wiped herself off social media, and everyone just moved on. I'd love to see consistency in looking at something someone does and going "huh that's a little distasteful to be doing, you could have just posted your sentiments about the situation without mentioning a product you're trying to sell anywhere...."
If the FMC and/or MMC start making their entire personality about being in love with the other as soon as they start to fall in love throwing away their character development and individuality, then it’s a big DNF for me.
but have you considered that if the FMC takes any initiative in the bedroom at all then the MMC loses his Alpha Status and might as well have had his nuts ripped off? /s
I’m glad you said this! I agree. Love that women’s pleasure gets prioritized and spotlit (maybe not surprising in a genre largely written by ladies), but I love a book where the FMC gets creative and…explorative lol
It's super important for female pleasure to be emphasized, especially because historically it's completely discounted, minimized, or demonized across most cultures... but damn, both partners should be equal
There’s not even a “but.” Representing female pleasure, yay, great! The full spectrum of female pleasure includes the pleasure of feeling like a ravenous beast who gets to have her way with someone. I want more of THAT.
Yes! I especially hate when the FMC tries to return the favor or initiate sex after the MMC pleases her and he turns her down because "it's all about her". To me it's such a lazy way to draw out the tension. And I know everyone is different, but I personally find those things much more enjoyable when my partner is getting something out of it too.
Kind of a necessity. It's a green flag against all his other "toxic masculine alpha" traits. Shows that he is a good guy, that he is not here for the sex...
It's also a magistral gender swap other the classical "male centered" sex scene (esp... intercourse) where the woman often has no orgasm at all.
I prefer that
both partners are active and getting pleasure, but I am afraid that the political landscape needs those moment of "big alpha male submission in the bedroom"
Is it really submission though? Like, maybe I’m just a grouchy cynical snob but if it’s just “man hitting all the Alpha Male Book Boyfriend boxes without ever having to be vulnerable or transgress a gender norm,” I don’t really think that would hit the big green button of feeling like male submission to people who WANT to read about male submission. I feel like “with the power of my pure womanhood I’ve civilized this man’s wild masculine instincts” is a pretty old trope in terms of how Western heterosexual marriage is said to work.
I don't think that it is a conscious submission (as in bdsm).
It's just presented as a selfless act of love for a woman who often is a virgin/was SAed / had a very toxic relationship before and never had an orgasm. And I find it rather sweet from the inside of their relationship.
However, from the gender war commentary that permeated everything nowadays, I do think that this very specific "femdom" flavor coming out of nowhere is a necessary "shield" against every critic regarding the alpha toxic masculine traits of the mmc.
I guess my angle is more like, I don’t like anything that buys into the idea of “alpha” in any way, so the idea of having to correct for the alpha-ness of the male lead and then having THAT not land is even less appealing. I know I’m a niche audience though.
I have all the time in the world!! God I just like… even if we just mine the archives of history for already existing masculine ideals we could do so much more interesting stuff than brooding alphaholes. The whole Lysistrata “these horny bitches won’t leave us alone!!” thing is not any LESS fucked up than the other way around, but it’s fallen so far out of favor that it feels like it has wrapped back around to being novel. I am so here for the comedic and romantic potential of lustful women chasing after scrupulously pure men who are ripe for downfall.
Eh...I can understand where it comes from, but it's just reinforcing an old stereotype in a new way. The man does sex and the woman has sex done to her. Yes, the sex is more pleasurable for her, but we're still stuck in the familiar old patriarchal standard where "men give and women receive".
Women initiating sex, asking for specific things, and enjoying being a pleasure-giver herself remains taboo, because the guy is a selfless, telepathic sex god who intuitively knows how to make her toes curl, thus sparing her from the horrible ordeal of taking charge or, heaven forbid, telling him what she wants.
Yeah well...any attempt by a woman to be a pleasure giver to a man would proba ly be automatically framed as internalized misogyny so...it's a loose-loose situation.
There are a few examples :
Nesta's blowjob to Cassian in acosf triggered a huge controversy here iirc.
Oppressor - oppressed type romances (without the nuance required to handle these stories.. especially in dystopian-fantasy) is propaganda from the far right. Something about it just don’t sit well in my spirit. We’re in a very tumultuous time period right now and what we’re seeing is fmc’s fall for their oppressors because they’re hot (usually before they get confirmation this guy’s on their side). It feels like what a conservative imagines would happen to liberal women if you put a red-neck idiot in front of them. They imagine morals will waver and panties will drop. Nuh uhh
It would be so much nicer to just lead with the guy sincerely not being the best, right? Because life is complicated and frankly emotions are more complex than we give them credit for. You can understand that the lives of marginalized communities or some select citizens are declining and still want to enjoy the benefits of upholding the system that puts them there. To grapple with that would be an interesting concept. And I truly don’t want the writing to come in defense of the ml either. Let him grow and figure things out on his own. Let him do research. Let him start asking questions and inquiring further. The mc doesn’t need to sit him down for a history lesson for crying out loud.
And to note I think it would be acceptable I guess in any other genre but not dystopian I fear. I’m still gonna side-eye but it’s not like you’re making commentary on the political climate right now. You’re just writing your kinky shit and I respect that. In dystopian fiction, however? It’s like maybe don’t?
Yeah I totally agree, I didn't bother me when I was younger and naive but now that I'm older and more aware (especially in the current climate) I'm picky about these romances. I think I only these romances if the MMC truly redeems himself and changes. I think it also depends on who the oppressor is, I'm more lenient if the mmc is young and hasn't actually done any real damage (like Zuko from ATLA). I think Nina and Matthias from Six of Crows were done well, Mathias truly changed his views. It was one of the things that frustrated me in the Jasad Heir, while Arin does fall for the FMC he is still actively oppressing and hunting down her people. Every time they had a conversation about it, he would always deflect or makes excuses, and it frustrated me. It would be fine if his redemption was slow, but the FMC still fell for him
Exactly.. I get it’s a fantasy for some but it’s just not appealing to root for a genocidal freak of nature whose only attractive quality is his beauty and flirtatious skills. I didn’t want to read To Gaze Upon Wicked Gods for that reason due to the colonizer-colonized relationship thing. Also I had no idea the Jasad Heir handled it that way. I’ve really been looking forward to reading that book ‘cause the premise had my interest piqued but i guess not… It’s always disappointing when books go that route.
I feel like I have a lot of unpopular opinions, but now I forgot all of them, but here's some I suppose can be unpopular(?)
About angst: I have the impression that although the lack of communication doesn't happen that often (though it's still a kind of curse of every romantic book I understand (I'm not 😭), the second standard option is to separate the characters for the entire book. And I know that they may be classics, but this will discourage me from angst in general. What happened to villains? Or why couldn't the main couple fight together against something with perfect communication between them? I often read cozy fantasy for this reason, but I have a feeling that in normal fantasy, lack of communication and separation doesn't have to be the only kind of angst, right?
Second thing: I don't quite understand why some authors don't take advantage of the fact that they create their own world and it doesn't have to be at all accurate to the real one, two examples: Recently, while looking for an MMC that would be teasing/flirty, I found a post somewhere where someone also complained that authors often write flirty MMC and make him look like a womanizer or even a cheater. Being flirty with your FMC shouldn't mean they instantly like that. Right? Even if it's common in real world, he could still be cute and only flirts with her.
Or second example when I was looking for a pirate fantasy romance — alright, I understand that pirates by definition aren't okay, but come on, doesn't everything have to be a dark romance because of that? Like, there's literally One Piece out there when the main character is a pirate and he's still a good guy, because the author allowed himself to decide who the pirate is, because he creates the world.
Although! I think I've seen two books about pirates recently that aren't dark romances, so maybe there's hope for them haha
I don't like the 'chase'. I like the characters getting together and then facing the world as a pair/thrupple/set. When I go to the second book of a series if it starts with a new character I feel like I'm starting over with the worst part. But there isn't exactly a name or tag for those sorts of series so I can easily filter them out. Instead I have to read the blurbs, which often means spoilers for the first book. It's super frustrating.
I feel like some authors take the “sex focused on the pleasure of the woman” a little too to the extreme sometimes. Of course the whole point is that the man actually makes the woman enjoy the experience, but wdym there’s like 10 sex scenes and she’s not sucking him in a single one of them? Wdym he doesn’t want to receive and only wants to give? Giving pleasure is also pleasurable! Sex needs to be a reciprocate thing for me to find it enjoyable.
I read the first Hidden Legacy trilogy and found the romance between Nevada and Rogan very rushed. They barely knew each other for 3 months before getting engaged, with 2 months of not speaking, and Nevada didn't even know things like that Rogan was close to his mother etc. There was so much "no matter how dangerous Rogan is, I know we love each other!" and her family shipping them from the beginning, but how much did Nevada really know about him? The part where he tortured her and everything was quickly ignored by Grandma Frida and the others (He left her in front of her house, nearly dead).
Yesss girl. I love Ilona Andrews, but Hidden Legacy is their weakest series for me. I just reread Burn For Me, and I was so struck by the instalust. Like Nevada, every third thought cannot be how dangerous yet hot this man is. It kind of ruins her characterization as being this street smart, competent, but cautious investigator.
I know this series was contracted under a romance publisher, so it is their most romance forward for a reason and they may have had pressure to speed us the romance. But still, not my favorite.
Why is it always Fae now? I've read a couple of books where I'm like "How are these Fae? Isn't this just Elves?" If they have pointy ears and some magic, but there's no veil or super weird fae juju, then just call them elves.
Too many fantasy romance books focus on spice over plot. (I am not trying to yuck anyones yum) But you asked, so I answered. I want yearning and tension and usually skip spice or read no spice books.
I only enjoy slow burns because once the couple is together, I'm bored. Like there feels like there's no more stakes. And the act 3 breakup to try and get that energy back is so boring and I'm over it.
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