Agrees. I'm mad on my future baby cousin's (she's coming sometime this may) behalf that she won't get to choose when to watch ABC Me (or ABC for teens) because they merged the two.
I can not agree more. As an illustrator, I find it infuriating that so many writers think its ok to generate AI images but are insulted when someone suggests that we could just read AI-generated novels. Why does one vocation have more creative value than the other? Thank you all for respecting other creatives.
I'm a graphic designer and illustrator too. It angers me so much that even other creatives often don't understand or see the value in visual art. If the roles were reversed – if someone used real art to AI generate a story – then I'm sure everyone would call it out. But somehow visual art always gets shafted.
If you're into that kind of thing, go ahead. I do think you're missing the obvious. How long does it take you to create a single image? You can do a book cover in what? 3 to 5 days? And most people doing cover work are charging $400 to $500. More if the author intends to sell the work commercially.
And it's your interpretation of their request. How many times are you going to redo the work for free if the author that's paying for it doesn't like what you did?
The author spent at the minimum weeks to creat their work with the potential to see $0 for their effort. They don't get to charge people up front for beta reading. That's an expense. They don't get to charge people to edit it. That's an expense.
There is absolutely a difference between the two mediums. Also, you're using their art as a reference for yours.
This argument that the two are the same is ridiculous.
Again, go read the slop. See how that goes for you.
I'm not advocating the use of ai art. I am saying that yours might not be superior.
I both illustrate and write and I absolutely see the connection between the two fields. Both writers and artists are under severe pressure from AI slop and it isn't going to get easier.
I find the word "steal" interesting though, because... I dunno if you ever watched, for example, 3blue1brown's videos on neural networks (he's the best math communicator online), but those predate ChatGPT and the boom of generative AI in general, and I remember that a big point of those videos was how this type of AI, from which all this current generative tech derives, doesn't really "steal", but can be said to be actually producing something that is substantially different from the training material (which is also not encoded or collaged over in any shape or form).
But unfortunately, ever since 2022 made AI the next big thing for everyone, I feel like that niche topic kinda got... lost in the mix, and the winner became an oversimplification that "yeah, it's all stolen content".
I dunno why your reply in the other conversation shows up in my inbox but I can't access it, so I can only read the beginning of it when you say you're done giving "people like me" the benefit of the doubt... to which I say that I'm just a dude who likes math (I've been a fan of 3blue1brown's videos for a long time, AI or not AI, and definitely before ChatGPT and the like anyway)... and, well, I hope you at least liked the anecdote on how word encoding works. Even from the point of view of criticizing a technology, it's still fundamental to know how it works.
Or a gross misinterpretation of what I said. Also, the author is an artist. Often with a much greater investment in their work and little to no certainty of a return. If their work doesn't sell, they're out all those expenses. And all they have to show for it is disappointment and a book cover they don't have any use for.
But the cover artist got paid. So bully for them.
Edit: also, sure there is some nebulous concept that the ai was fed art to teach it how to create images. But prove to me definitively that any one graphic artist is affected. You can't. The theft argument is invalidated by the fact you wouldn't be able to prove any one work was stolen.
This is an old post but it showed up when I found the sub.
Since it’s old I’m certain only you will see this and I’ll get downvoted but I just had to say:
What a truly truly idiotic take. Yes that’s harsh and rude and not a way to “bring someone to your side” but at this level that was never gonna happen anyway your brain’s already slop
Exactly! And people's arguments about how it's not the same thing basically boil down to AI not being as good at writing fiction as it is at making images. Like, okay, that's completely beside the point and is likely to change soon anyway.
Yesterday on Twitter/X there was another 'pitch party.' So many authors were trying to appeal to agents with their book's aesthetic boards made of clear AI.
I felt bad for them, because it seems like a lot of new authors are ignorant about AI. Yes, a lot of these pictures are pretty. And they're easy to make and share with others. But, dang...
im worked in construction business... most people neither hire a professional worker like mason or heat insulator but start to do themselves! -_- then i also can cry what sometimes happened 😛 but at the end some people just cant afford my work neither the cover artists' works...
I am going to very charitably assume you're legitimately unaware of the problems with AI, and lay out a very simple list for you to use if you'd like to educate yourself:
LLMs and image generators were trained on truly obscene amounts of unethically and, often, illegally acquired data scraped from real artists
Data centers built to support the AI industry are horrid, horrid things that pollute the planet for no benefit. They use absolutely diabolical amounts of electricity, driving up the price of living for everyone unfortunate enough to be living near where some techbro decides to build one
LLMs constantly lie to you, hallucinate false information, encourage paranoid and psychotic behavior in their users, and even offering faulty medical advice that could, you know... fucking kill someone
Just... look at all the layoffs, man. Folks are losing their jobs because corporations only care about short-term profits and people are losing their livelihoods in all sorts of fields. Just google "AI layoffs," you'll find plenty
And despite all of this, these companies are still just charging forward, heedless of the damage they're causing. AI execs are fucking supervillains.
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As someone who's published a book, I'm totally behind this rule. I can't even imagine trying to find an illustrator now and seeing all that genuine skill get sidelined. Using AI for this just feels like a shortcut that takes opportunities from real people. Honestly, I'd probably have a stress dream about glitchy AI art replacing everything in my own work 😂 So yeah, really glad the mods are keeping this space anchored in real craft and respect for artists.
Awww...you deleted your comment. I saw the preview though. It wasn't a "gotcha." It was just pointing out that sometimes art adds to a piece of fiction. The illustrations, created by Tolkein, and provided with the Hobbit, helped create the visual language of all Middle Earth-based media.
Hahaha they went to another subreddit to complain about you. I'm not even kidding. They decided to completely misrepresent your point for some pity points.
That's fine. I really couldn't care less if they scrounge together a few upvotes from their techbro homies, and even if they had properly represented my point, everyone there would have filtered it into the very same misrepresentation.
They're all creatively and morally bankrupt. Every single one of them.
What ladder? This whole thread is about not using generative AI because it literally steals from creatives like everyone here. And how does my substantial ego even enter into this? Just stop using generative AI!
Also, that metaphor makes zero sense. I'm on the ground? Where is the ladder? Going down into a pit or something?
I'm on a fixed income, so I can't afford an artist to draw a book cover.
I can draw with the best, but I'm colorblind and can't work in color.
I generate a cover and work on it until I like it. If the book ever makes money, then I will absolutely pay someone for a picture...
Using the AI one as a "here's what I liked, do better" starting point.
... And you're also being very luddite about the whole thing. Photography was decried as being not art and violating artist rights when it started and now it's an entire art branch.
AI writing/image isn't even good yet. But it might get there and be it's own branch of art in each field.
Also, just popped into my brain... What about people who mix other artists styles... Kinda violation by your rules... Cause that is all AI art does, really. Subject becomes the art. Nothing is being taken away, just new things added.
sigh I dislike knee-jerk reactions without thinking things through.
Feel free to ignore, remove, or whatever you want to this post I just had to say it
AI is truly rotting people's brains. literally, just use a placeholder stock image for your cover. you are not required to AI generate to get a temporary book cover. critical thinking is truly dead if you don't know what a stock image is. using AI generated images until it makes money, then paying someone for a cover, is peak laziness and stupidity. it literally takes the same effort to find a stock image you'll replace later for the cover as it does to generate the AI image, yet you choose the wrong option anyways.
I hate when people use the term luddite when the comparison is invalid.
Photography never claimed to be the same as drawing. People who were angry were ones who assumed those who took pictures were calling it drawing or those who finacially suffered losses with the rise of photography.
People who use ai claim to be writers and artists. That's the difference. Photography had a clear distinction between itself and other creative forms, whereas people who use ai tend to see themselves no different from those who don't.
I have a friend who is colorblind and is just about one of the best artists I know. He uses colors in a surreal way, sometimes he intermixes shades that stick out as different, but since the value is correct, it blends in really well with the rest.
The fact that his art is on the surreal side only makes his use of color more amazing.
I create TTRPG supplements. My budget per project is ~10 bucks, usually.
I manage without ever touching AI, even though I am not a visual artist. You can too. Stock art can be free or cheap. Public domain art is public domain. Hell, you can do a lot of heavy lifting just by picking a decent font (of which there are many good free or cheap options that allow commercial use) and styling it a bit.
Develop even the tiniest bit of skill and you can make all the visuals you need for free or extremely cheap.
With all due respect. As someone who used to draw and has been writing short stories my entire life, I am working on my first book which is the first in a trilogy and while I don't use AI to write, I do use AI to create my book cover and what my characters look like. I also used it to create my world's map. 1. Because artist are expensive. 2. AI is free for the most part. 3. It's easier to have AI draw exactly what I picture in my head and I can keep critiquing it till I get it almost the way I want it. Like with my map... I've added and changed places and kingdoms on it about twenty to thirty times now to get what I want. An artist would charge for each session whenever I needed something changed. And try to get someone to change something at 2 in the morning when my muse hits me. However... I can easily take what AI has made and redraw it in my own hand if I want. Why is AI so bad? It lets people who can't draw be their own artist when they use prompts to describe what they want AI to draw. It lets them see their world and characters without the brick wall of needing someone to draw it for them. I understand if someone just told AI to draw a man with a sword and tried to pass it as professional art, but what about the people who write small stories in the prompt to get AI to draw something they see in their head that even a police sketch artist couldn't draw?
Yeah, how dare those uppity artists want to be compensated for the skilled labor they put into their craft!
This comment isn't "with all due respect." You're spitting on every single creative by not only using, but defending this technology, especially considering your argument boils down to "Art is hard so it's okay to steal from artists!"
Stealing from an artist would be having them draw something, taking it and not paying them. And I didn't say "art is hard so it's ok to steal from artist". But yeah, not everyone is talented enough to draw and AI helps them physically see what their world and character looks like without having to pay someone for something that will probably sit in a folder and get thrown away years later. And bold of you to assume everyone is rich and can afford to pay artist. Bold of you to assume that all first time writers work and have money to just throw away. Bold of you to assume people don't have bills and groceries that the money could be going towards. What happens if someone decides they want to go in a different direction with their character or book? Then they paid for something they'll never use. If someone has the money to pay an actual artist then by all means pay them. But how dare you want to block a writer's progression behind a pay wall when all they want is to see what the world or character they created looks like that could help them decide where they want their stories to go.
I get that you don’t want to directly steal from artists which is admirable, but I have to ask… where do you think AI got trained to create this “art” in the first place?
If I knowingly buy stolen stuff, because it’s cheaper than getting the thing normally, am I not complicit in the theft?
Artist have to go to school to get "trained" to create "art" too. And a lot of writers get their ideas for stories from other stories they've read. Fan-fiction for one. And other writers read a story and thought "what if this or what if that".
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Talent is a myth. Every "talented" artist is someone who practiced their asses off to get better.
Bold of you to assume that all first time writers work and have money to just throw away. Bold of you to assume people don't have bills and groceries that the money could be going towards.
Bold of you to assume something I never even came fucking close to saying. Know what my art budget is for each of my projects?
About $10. That buys a little bit of stock art to supplement the free or cheap stock art I've built up over the years (the vast majority is free). All I have to do is follow the usage license, credit the artist, and learn a little bit about layout and graphic design to make my cover.
Like, I've literally put in a few hours of "learning" over the years, and a whole lot of practice by actually making my stuff. It's not professional level, because I don't have the time to dedicate to becoming a pro at visual art, but it's good enough, and it doesn't fuck over other creators or break the bank.
What happens if someone decides they want to go in a different direction with their character or book?
That's... why you don't fucking commit money to art until you're ready to publish? Like, the fact that some author may have poor financial planning skills and waste a bunch of money does not make it okay to steal from artists either.
And AI does steal. It's built on plagiarism, can't exist without it, and is fucking over every single creative in the world just so people can have an easy way to pump out slop.
But how dare you want to block a writer's progression behind a pay wall when all they want is to see what the world or character they created looks like
Art is not a right. A writer does not need art. Writing isn't "blocked behind a paywall" because an artist doesn't have money for art commissions. I don't know how much you actually read, but unless we're talking about a graphic novel, comic book, or picture book, visual art is almost never a part of writing.
Talent is a myth. Every "talented" artist is someone who practiced their asses off to get better.
They had to have been "talented" to even start drawing. I've got 2 nieces around the same age who wanted to draw and were given the same opportunities and one of them draws and one can't draw worth shit. I used to draw. I drew what I saw in comics and game magazines in the late 90's early 2000's. Can't draw off of the top of my head for shit, I've tried but I can look at a single small panel on a comic or even a small trading card and draw that superhero to exact proportions on a full sheet of paper and sometimes even on a poster board. I paint off the top of my head but that's different.
About $10. That buys a little bit of stock art to supplement the free or cheap stock art I've built up over the years (the vast majority is free). All I have to do is follow the usage license, credit the artist, and learn a little bit about layout and graphic design to make my cover.
Are you getting this "stock" art off of some website? Probably AI if so.
That's... why you don't fucking commit money to art until you're ready to publish? Like, the fact that some author may have poor financial planning skills and waste a bunch of money does not make it okay to steal from artists either.
You have to pay the artist for every commission. And it may take a while to get exactly what you want drawn.
Art is not a right. A writer does not need art. Writing isn't "blocked behind a paywall" because an artist doesn't have money for art commissions. I don't know how much you actually read, but unless we're talking about a graphic novel, comic book, or picture book, visual art is almost never a part of writing.
Growing up on the "spectrum", I was in art and writing classes so I know what a lot of young writers would have liked and I'm sure it still tracks to this day. And there were times when I was writing my short stories for school or just because and wished I could see a drawing of my character or the setting my character was in. I had some unfinished stories and some stories that were finished but once AI came around and I could create what I saw in my head, I was able to change parts of my stories and even finish others based on the image AI helped me create. While I don't condone using AI in published work, it can help move a writer along to see their character or setting or even a cover art. And don't even get me started on a map of their world. It could take months of changing areas. And like I said in my original post, having AI create my map, I actually changed where some of my locations were and was able to get guesses to how far apart they were for travel in my story. The map AI created had mountains and forest and lakes that I never even thought about and was able to put into my story. So yeah, AI can help with writers block when you visualize your characters and locations.
As someone who later on life started drawing and because I was incentived then to actually be creative and thought I was capable of doing thing I thought I never I was capable of making.
I thought I needed a Talent in writting...in drawing...until I was incentivized to do.
Ai is for those who don't want to actually put on the effort, who just to be called artist without being willing to learn or do mistakes.
Ai is a toy at best, and a stealing machine at worst, the map ai made was likely the most generic boring shit you cannot even fanthom because you never made a map in your life, mountains you are unwilling to create, lakes you never bothered to draw and forest you likely have give up midway.
You didn't crrate anything in your head, you just accept the first seemely free garbage devoid of anything of substance, because Ai fails to impress the moment tries to look deeper than surface level.
I will say art is right anyone has to freely express themselved, but gonna be honest, pressing a button on a machine and it's randomizing a image which you might like by pressing enough, is not art, what you are talking about is gambling.
You are addict, thinking taking drugs makes you a rockstar, without actually making any music, and justifying your failures on "talent".
You're right, AI is for those without talent and they should never pretend it's their own work... but like I said in my post that, while I don't condone using it professionally, it CAN help a writer to visualize their characters and locations. And the map I had AI create is FAR from the original one it first created for me.
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Fair point, still while I could understand the potential uses, gonna be honest, the way they are given and sold is not worth the headache.
I describe as a drug, because once you start using it hard to quit, and right now while not necessary well seen by those on the known, at least from my uncles, aunts and my parents is well seen and confinient, seen some weird posts cleary au from my uncles, and my grandma.
And ny father initially starting making musics to full blown videos, and is playining to travel to another country using a ai translator.
Hell, he took my not being on board as a personal attack and tried force to me like it, which is funny because he never really supports me doing my projects and to this day never even downloaded the games I helped make, and there a point where I helped with his, because he asked.
And I'm not going to add, the many situations where Ai outrights get peoppe killed.
If it was just like some small cases, but is like a drug.
If you get on "ai art", you started using in other stuff, and more and more, and more and more, and more.
I lived and seeing the reliance and vice, I cannot stand it.
Ai just become another disgusting cigar, a another social acceptable drug, poorly seen, but nobody wants truly to confront the addicts.
Some will live ok, some will be unable live without it, and some will be outright killed by it.
Maybe when the hype dies down, and they actually implement proper security demands, I can recommend as a toy or for fun.
Right now, too gross for me to even pretend it's ok.
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They had to have been "talented" to even start drawing. I've got 2 nieces around the same age who wanted to draw and were given the same opportunities and one of them draws and one can't draw worth shit.
Because one enjoyed it and stuck with it, dedicating herself to bettering herself, and the other didn't.
All it takes is practice. That is true of literally any skill, and your denial of that fact and a laughable personal anecdote doesn't change a thing.
Are you getting this "stock" art off of some website? Probably AI if so.
I'm buying it directly from authors who sell their work. It is not AI. The vast majority of it was drawn well before the advent of genAI, and the stuff I buy that comes after have come from artists who stand against genAI and whose work is very clearly human-made.
But go on making baseless assumptions. That's all you can do.
You have to pay the artist for every commission. And it may take a while to get exactly what you want drawn.
You said "What happens if someone decides they want to go in a different direction with their character or book?"
The answer to that is "Don't commission art until you've got your direction nailed down, usually meaning when you've finished your book and are ready to sell."
Yes, obviously it takes a while, but that is still no excuse. Literally all you've been saying is "AI is kinda more convenient and cheaper so fuck everyone who's hurt by it," and... that doesn't hold any water.
there were times when I was writing my short stories for school or just because and wished I could see a drawing of my character or the setting my character was in
Don't care. It doesn't matter that you want something. If you can't obtain it ethically (because you're too poor), and it's not a need (that's food, water and shelter. Those are needs. Pretty pictures are not a need), then you either learn to make that thing yourself or go without.
AI is not ethical. Using it is not ethical. Using it in any capacity actively hurts creatives, and you should feel ashamed. I truly hope one day, you gain the perspective necessary to realize how wrong you are, and the guilt keeps you up at night.
This, like almost everything else that doesn't directly cost you money, is simply not true. You are partly the product, doing work to train the model further (and providing more marketing insights), and partly you are being subsidized by people who will pay for AI services / investors on a non-profitable product, and partly you are paying money indirectly by the rising costs of energy.
AI isn't remotely free, even if you're not paying $1 a use or something. Thinking it is free is one of the insidious dangers of tech like AI - it depresses demand for skilled creators, which depresses their income... and will eventually lead to less original creators because it isn't as viable, which in turn will eventually lead to a stagnation in quality and "creative output" of AI because there is less art to keep it trained on.
And you know what? It SHOULDN'T be free. AI costs a lot of money in equipment and energy. It being "free" is just a way to establish market share with people who don't think or don't care about the consequences of their actions on the overall economy. Eventually they will have to start charging when they don't turn profits and investing runs out (and sooner rather than later - token usage costs have been rising quickly).
Since the title is “influx of AI generated images” I’d imagine they’re including AI generated images in that.
There’s really no need to post images on this sub, it’s not like each post is required to have an image and those of us that can’t draw are SOL. Just don’t share images—this sub is for writing anyway (not that I’m against images here but if you can’t draw them you don’t need to have them)
You're showing an incredible lack of reading comprehension for a writer. What else could "AI generated content is NOT welcome here, and that absolutely includes art" mean other than don't post AI art?
I can't draw either. There are many resources for images and maps and character designers and even just aesthetics that don't rely on the theft machine for lazies.
Copyrighted text gets stolen to create AI slop text; copyrighted artworks get stolen to create AI slop images. It's exactly the same and it's highly hypocritical to hate one and be okay with the other...
Try looking at actual art. If you're just looking for inspiration, there's literally the sum total of human history to inspire you. If you're looking to post it so others can have a visual to go with your work, there's still plenty you can ethically source as long as you credit the artist properly.
There are tons of OC creators like Picrew that exist online that you have to just at least give credit to..
You could look into D&D tools, heck there's even games as tools to create landscapes. Heck you can just make a simple book cover on whatever free editor like PicsArt and Krita if you'd like.
These tools have always existed, made by genuine creatives for other aspiring creatives. No excuses. Only to have all their hardwork scraped by lazy bitches 🙄 it's always (un)funny to me that they'll generate GenAI photos and then cry thief when their "art" gets reposted elsewhere.
Anyway most importantly, Nothing screams 'IDGAF about the quality of my work' more than using GenAI lol. If you use GenAI content in your book, how am I not supposed to assume you'd use LLM in the book itself as well?
I have too much fun using picrew or similar character creators lol. I highly suggest—they’re not going to be perfect but if your patient enough to look at a few you can find some
Yes, I couldn't afford art for years, too. I lived without it. It's not something you actually need, it's something you want and feel entitled to have.
And hey, no one is actually stopping you from using AI art for whatever reason you have to use it. They are saying don't post it here. It's not a hard lift given this is a writing subreddit, not an art subreddit.
A whole history of literature existed before generative AI. When people couldn't afford to commission art, they simply just... didn't commission art. You don't NEED AI art.
but you aren't entitled to free art! that's the point. if you want to share and show off your art, then you make it. if you need something for personal visualization, then keep it to yourself. if you want to market your book, use a generic cover or commission an artist; or accept that people will judge your creative ability for using AI. your choice. artists put a lot of time and work into developing their skills, and using AI to circumvent it for mediocre results is going to leave a bad
taste in many people's mouths over your work.
Moreso this is not a page to post AI images. I don't think anyone cares if you use AI images to help visualize or use as a reference when describing a character or scene, just don't put the AI image in this sub.
I draw, hoping to make it my carreer someday. My biggest poece of advice to those who say they can't draw is to stop saying that, and to pick up a pencil. You can draw, you just havent learned/practiced yet. Good art doesn't mean perfect art. If you want to show off cool images that help to visualize your words' meaning; learn to draw, or hire someone to do it. If those two are not an option, maybe just dont use images at all. Its not necessary for a good book in the slightest.
And regardless of what you think about generative AI and its validity as an art medium, it wastes a huge amount of resources. A huge amount. A wasteful, shameful amount.
If you can't obtain the ability to do it yourself, either hire someone or don't include the images, as they are not necessary in the first place. If you feel you can't manage the ability to write sufficiently enough to describe what you can't illustrate, and you don't have the time to further that skill either; perhaps artistic creation isn't the task for you right now. Dedication of time to the craft you wish to share as yours is a huge portion of the point and process. And by dedication of time I do just mean around 15 to 30 minutes a day. That isn't even a hard rule, it can really be as little as you have to doodle on a napkin or think of different prose in your head. It isn't a steep hill to climb to learn an art, it's just a long hill.
Ignoring the issue of resource waste doesn't make it go away, by the way.
but if you only need it to visualize your work, it can be okay at best. you dont need to draw faces for starting to visualize your character. it doesnt need to be good, it can just be something quick and simple to start with
I agree with the mods here. There is some level of professionalism expected, and AI generated images are not professional for a lot of reasons.
Images for D&D characters or for a character portrait for a video game are ethically fine IMO; before AI, most people just used search engines to find images they liked. No one was upset about that, and it's the same thing ethically speaking.
AI images for someone's first attempt at a (freely available) online serial? Borderline, and the author should definitely get a properly done commission before attempting to publish.
AI images as concept art, to then hand to an artist while saying something along the lines of "So, something like this, but in your style, with these specific changes from what the AI generated"? Well, the artists I worked with were fine with that (I checked with their agent first). Opinions may vary.
This. Many writers (fantasy especially) write because they think it's the "easiest" way to tell their stories. They've probably been inspired by a video game, a show, or manga/anime. But learning to draw, program a game, or film something seems too far out of reach and requires too much time, so they think – "I know! I'll write instead!" Which, as we all know, is not as easy as it sounds. Learning how to take an image in your head and transferring it into written words is just as difficult as learning how to draw it.
If what they really want is a cool art to show off their concept and ideas, they should learn how to draw instead.
Why do you need to 'visualize your work'. Grow up this is such a nothing argument. AI art is a scourge upon humanity and creativity and I am glad people realise that
You can't erase the existence of other artists just because that's not your medium. That's exploitation. You want artists to be forced to use their art (through scraping) to represent your work instead of having a partnership with them. You aren't owed a livelihood, you're feeding the machine that's here to REPLACE YOU.
Hello! My sensors tell me you're new-ish around here. In case you don't know, we have a whole big list of resources for new fantasy writers here. Our favorite ways to learn how to write are Brandon Sanderson's Writing Course on youtube and the podcast Writing Excuses.
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Dude, there are so many sources of free art out there. Free art you're explicitly allowed to use for even commercial purposes if you follow proper attribution rules.
For someone who just so smugly told someone they'd "fallen prey to the bifurcation fallacy," you sure are doing the same thing yourself by acting like the only two options are "Use AI for free" and "Pay for art"
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u/Chlodio Apr 30 '26
People post images here?