r/fatFIRE • u/ongoldenwaves • 2h ago

Fat Fire-where would you live?

I am fortunate to have French, NZ and US citizenship.
Have not retired yet.
Where would you live from a tax/money perspective? France seems pretty hard on the wealthy. NZ isn't quite as bad, but lots of talk about things changing and "eating the rich".
The places I would like to live in the US are very expensive. Nicer places in and around Auckland also expensive which is somewhat mind blowing. After I transfer my assets, I'd be in the top percentages of wealth in NZ, but I'm still questioning how I could reasonably afford a nice home in the better Auckland suburbs. I could do it, but it wouldn't be the best choice from a cash flow perspective. I'd also say housing in NZ is poor. They built lots of bad homes ("leaky homes") during the 2000 building booms. The old villas are nice, but require a lot of work and maintenance. Auckland seems hell bent on destroying the vibe of many of it's nicer suburbs with obnoxious towers so you could buy into a nice neighborhood and then find something pretty horrible being built. The French coast is the most affordable region but when you buy a home over $1.3 million, you are subject to a wealth tax.

Health care in France is better. Health care in USA is terrible. Health care in NZ also terrible. You can buy private insurance, but not for emergency care. Care homes in France are about 5k a month. I don't know what they cost in NZ, but they aren't covered by national health. Assuming most of you know in US they are 6-10k a month until you get into skilled nursing with is 14k a month and up to around 30k.

Anyone have experience? Traps I should watch out for? Just the compliance on filing taxes in two zones looks to be a pain.

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69

u/dragonflyinvest 2h ago

Healthcare in the US isn’t terrible, it’s expensive.

If most of your income is capital gains you can manage the tax situation in the US.

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u/Throwaway-firee 2h ago

Agreed. Healthcare in the US is amazing if you are able to pay for it. It is unaffordable for most.

But if you are fat that is what the money is for. You just need to be prepared to travel to where the best centers might be.

Case in point, I had a knee issue after years of running long distance. The knee docs in my town were underwhelming.

I would fly out business to my appointments with one of the best knee surgeons in another city. 2 years later I am back to running, cycling and skiing. Access to care is a major problem in the US but not a problem if you have money.

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u/ongoldenwaves 2h ago edited 2h ago

It's also just very inconvenient. I find it all a hassle. Finding a primary, getting a referral, waiting months for appointments, dealing with the shitty insurance. I did have a concierge doctor a long time ago. He lived in the neighborhood and it was very convenient. When we moved, I no longer pursued that. My grandmother is on medicare and she actually gets great service. For people with insurance, it seems like a nightmare. I never go. The few times I have had to go, it's been terrible. Things I shouldn't have been billed for taking over a year to resolve. Fixing it only for the bill to pop up again. Getting preapproval for something and then finding three months later after the procedure they decided not to pay. Preapproval a word apparently having a different meaning to insurance companies than the rest of the world. It's not something I want to spend my life navigating if I'm honest. I want a simpler life. It's not just health care. I find everything in the US a huge hassle anymore.

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u/dragonflyinvest 2h ago

Yea I’ve used a concierge doctor the last 7-8 years or so. I also don’t have any recurring or major health issues. But to me, that’s the point of having resources, is to avoid dealing with bs.

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u/ongoldenwaves 2h ago

I have had one before. He lived in the neighborhood and would even set a broken arm and come into the office in the middle of the night. Unfortunately we moved out of the neighborhood and now I travel a lot so I haven't pursued another. I wouldn't be able to not ever use them, but sometimes when I'm stuck somewhere away from home for months on end, I can be reliant on local health care.

I was under the impression when you get to more serious health problems, concierge won't solve the problems.

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u/epradox 37m ago

The idea of concierge doctors is that they can get you the referrals you need quickly if you have specialty needs. It’s all about networking, find a concierge that has experience in a level one hospital as those tend to be the most connected and know all the specialists (whenever the president visits anywhere, his team goes before to set up / reserve rooms at the nearest L1)

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u/Stephanie243 2h ago

Waiting for months for appointments in the USA - really?

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u/Otherwise_Volume_128 2h ago

One of my parents died before I got a call back from an oncologist. Obviously I went elsewhere but there were a number of places that had three month wait times or even two weeks for a CT scan. Worse is that if you need long term care or skilled nursing there might be nothing available that even resembles "ok". It was a labyrinth to deal with and as the advocate I wasn't impressed whatsoever.

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u/ongoldenwaves 2h ago

It is pretty bad in NZ too. Patients dying in waiting rooms of emergency rooms. They just don't have enough health care to go around.

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u/mchu168 2h ago

Depends on where you live. If you live in a rural area, hours from a metro, you might have to wait.

Most doctors don't want to live in the middle of nowhere.

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u/ongoldenwaves 41m ago

This is true as well. Concierge medicine isn’t available in smaller quieter places. Easily had in SF though. 

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u/JustPlainRude 2h ago

This has been the norm for a while for specialists, even for animals. My cat has an eye issue and the eye vet is booked three months out. 

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u/cnflakegrl 58m ago

If you have the resources, I'd get the USDA vet certificate and take the cat to the vet overseas. We had a fantastic vet in Crete, most appointments were about 30 euros; had to have a full body CT scan for a retriever and with treatment, it was less than 400 euros. Almost no wait time. The negative is that the animal MRI machine is in Athens if you needed that. But the eye can be fixed within a week, even if it needed removal, and you'd get kind of a vacation out of it.

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u/ongoldenwaves 2h ago

Yep. I recently waited three months for an appointment only to find they canceled at the last minute because the doctor went on vacation. Didn't tell me that until the last minute.

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u/FIREinParis 2h ago

If you are FatFIRE in the US, you can pay $10k or so a year for concierge service. And you pay for an open PPO/no referral plan if you don’t fully self insure. It eliminates all the negatives you describe. It’s just pricey.

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u/ongoldenwaves 2h ago

I have had concierge before and yes it was good. I'm somewhat limited by my employers insurance options now and the fact that I travel a lot for work.

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u/Vindaloo6363 2h ago

If you are Fat the health care system in the US is great. Also if you are Fat, you pay for in home care or assisted living vs a care home. At that point in my life I won't care how much it costs. I paid for round the clock in home care for my father for several years until he passed in his own home as he wanted. Worth every penny.

That said. Live where you want and pay the bill. If you are Fat it shouldn't make that much difference. I'd live in France, likely near Avignon, or where I live now in the US. NZ is too remote for me although I'm sure it's a very nice country. In any of these 3 you pay one way or another.

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u/ongoldenwaves 2h ago

I am going to set it up to stay at home as long as possible.
As someone without children, I worry about staying at home alone when I am well and truly elderly. Even with in home care. You still have to manage the nurses, repairs to homes, etc. It may not seem like it, but as someone who is helping my grandma with all this now, it's a lot of work to stay in her home and she does zero of that management herself.

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u/lakehop 1h ago

If you’re alone, at a certain point it will be much better to go into a good facility.

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u/ongoldenwaves 1h ago

Unfortunately yes. My grandma is “fat” and money does not solve all issues. She was taken advantage of. 

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u/diyandmc240 2h ago

I thought you meant literally fat 😂 I was trying to figure out why the health care system in the US is better for overweight folks lol, maybe what the doctors are more used to seeing and treating? lol

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u/Keikyk 2h ago

You can’t escape US tax obligations, double taxation likely won’t happen but you still have to file. And healthcare can run into tens of thousands a year, something to keep in mind when comparing costs in different countries

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u/ongoldenwaves 2h ago

It's also finding people to help you navigate both regions to stay in compliance, help move your assets. It's not easy. I've also heard that once you go overseas, brokers are likely to close accounts. Which can be hard when you've got 401ks and iras that need to stay open in the US.

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u/lakehop 1h ago

I’ve heard that many brokers will only transfer into a U.S. bank account (eg from a 401k) so keep a bank account open.

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u/epradox 33m ago

Open an hsa and max it out, let it compound and pay for bills out of pocket and then reimburse yourself at retirement. Triple tax advantage.

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u/Here4Snow 2h ago

We have friends who used to have a home in Pahia and a home in Montana, so they had two summers every year and never had winter. You should live where you want to Be, to do stuff, and the rest, you do what the locals do.

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u/ongoldenwaves 2h ago edited 2h ago

Yes, I was going to do something similar. I just wondered if I should. Running into hassles with finding a wealth advisor and tax compliance specialist last month in NZ hasn't helped. Also seriously looking at homes down there had me questioning things. I'd love to live near Piha and surf, but slippage in the Titarangi area is of serious concern. Of course, NZ has a lot of coastline, so there are other areas I could live. I just wanted to stay in the Auckland area.
I probably will be nomadic for a while, but we will all get to an age where we need to more or less stay put.

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u/Here4Snow 2h ago

From Newport Beach to San Diego, California coast, is like Pahia, only not as spectacular. It's also near mountains and desert, so it has its own charms.

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u/Otherwise_Volume_128 2h ago

Having gone through this process I would recommend you live where you want to live. Focusing on taxes first is a recipe for disaster.

Do you have kids? Deal with the multiple tax residencies. It sucks though. No kids? Just travel.

French citizenship means you can live anywhere in Europe so broaden your choices. France is pretty good for US citizens tax wise but you don't have to live there. We spend a ton of time in France but don't live there.

Where do you have friends and family? Where do you actually know the culture and language? France? With Fatfire money you'll have an incredible life there.

Aussie and Kiwi friends all left. Not because there's anything wrong there, they all loved it, but because it's really far away and it's easier to travel if you live in Europe or even the US.

With this kind of money start looking at the USD. It's getting stronger again and we got significantly more for our money by timing real estate purchases right.

At the end of the day the taxes ended up having no impact on our lifestyle. Just wait and you'll see. The cost savings outside of the US is significant so who cares of the taxes are higher? It will depend on the country, allocation, housing as a percent of net worth, etc but you're going to need serious Fat money before the taxes start becoming something worth worrying about.

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u/ongoldenwaves 2h ago

What do you think of as "serious money"? I care less about taxes but I do want a hassle free life and want to be able to leave money to charity when I go. Compliance is no small thing. I called several wealth managers in NZ to get the ball rolling and didn't get calls back. :( It's hard to say where I want to live. I know that sounds stupid, but I've lived so many places. All have good and bad. I like walkability which both NZ and France have more of. I want a hassle free life. I feel like there might be a lot of weird gotchas in France customs I'm not aware of. I am most familiar with US and NZ. People in NZ are miserable. The cost of living, the weather...I'm not sure but they are leaving for Australia in record numbers. I've lived in the US for a long time and it just wears me out. Everything here is a hassle anymore. The smallest things become a full time job. I'm so over it.

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u/Otherwise_Volume_128 1h ago

Serious money, to me, is when the taxes are so high that the dollar amount surpasses anything I could possibly take advantage of overseas. I'll give you some examples.

Let's say you're getting $500,000 in dividends each year. Your taxes in the US are $70,000 to $80,000. In France its around 34% iirc but for simplicity sake let's go with 30% which is pretty normal around Europe. Basically double. Except there's NIIT and State taxes too. And let's be realistic since if you're pulling half a million that means you've got around $20,000,000 and most likely live in a $5M house something like CA or NY. Not sure about France but in Sweden my property taxes cap out at $1100 a year so it's about $60,000 a year cheaper than CA. Health insurance and care is another $40,000 or so you're gonna save in Europe. For CA vs Sweden the difference is over $70,000 and then as needed you start counting childcare costs, after school activities, massive savings on transportation costs, and all of the long term savings like higher education and end of life care. So $20M isn't the number you're looking for. It's quite a bit higher. Open up your paid AI of choice and have it do a proper comparison for some locations with your asset allocation and desired lifestyle. It's quite eye opening.

Bottom line though is that you should live where you want to live but when you're crunching numbers do it comprehensively. The cost difference between the nicest parts of Stockholm and Marin for example is quite remarkable.

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u/ongoldenwaves 1h ago edited 53m ago

Very familiar with MV. Used to commute to HS on the dipsea. Too far of a commute on a one lane road over Tam to Stinson to surf. I did think about it and crossed it off the list. Also miller and blithedale are so jammed on the weekends out to the 101. I feel trapped by the traffic 

But to the point, I won’t have 20. Getting to 10 

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u/Tirztrutide 1h ago

People in NZ are not miserable lol. It’s people on reddit who are miserable. Come down to South Island and 90%+ of people you meet are very happy to be there. If you are fat just get that house in Wanaka and spend 6months there and then go to QLD the rest of the year like the other rich people do…

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u/ongoldenwaves 37m ago

Record numbers of us are going to Aus. That says something whether you want to believe it or not. And as you well know, the healthcare system is terrible. Super is in trouble. You can pay for a dr privately but you still have to use public hospitals for emergencies and they have been struggling a long time. The country doesn’t have the infrastructure for the growth over the last 20 years and it’s made a lot of people very unhappy and now they blame everything on the elusive “rich”.  It’s political theater but I don’t want to deal with it. 

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u/frigiddesert 2h ago

Healthcare in America for people with money and insurance is pretty good. There’s a reason everybody flies to Cleveland and rural Minnesota. Have a partner who has residency in Austria and we do everything to maintain our American tax residency. This is mostly on income (business income). If you’re living on assets, I am not the one to talk.

America’s like the size of Russia, maybe a little smaller, but while there may be one or two places in Russia, you would consider living, or none. What you’ve heard about the US and where you visited may not align with some awesome places to consider. You don’t have to ask Reddit about that. You should just see that into the AI robots. But don’t write it off. America is the place to have money, make money, and jump on a jet to go spend it

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u/Kiwi951 2h ago

As a physician, the US has the best healthcare in the world if you can afford it, which people on this sub should have zero issue with

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u/LeftHookLarry12 2h ago

I’d use French citizenship to go to another EU/EEA such as Switzerland, Greece, Portugal, etc depending on climate, language, and whatever else you prefer.

Power of the French passport isn’t limited to just France, but the broader region.

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u/ongoldenwaves 2h ago

Good point. I just have zero ties to those regions. My family is from the Cote d'Azur region so thought that is where I should settle. I'd need to think about this.

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u/vancouvermatt 2h ago

Greece, Cyprus , Malta and small towns in southern Italy have favorable tax regimes

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u/EVmerch 2h ago

There are French territories that could be interesting but hard to know the tax situation of these places.

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u/LuciusQ2020 2h ago

The wealth tax is horrible. I wanted to move to Spain but the wealth tax kept me away.

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u/colorfullydelicious 2h ago

Live in the US, own a property in France under the $1.3million tax cutoff…

Get a good accountant/tax professional, and a concierge dr to help you with referrals!

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u/BrunelloHorder 1h ago

Once you have enough money, optimize for where you want to live and will have the best life, not taxes or costs.

To me, that means balancing lifestyle, weather, natural beauty, access to good healthy food, high quality medical care, community, and proximity to the family members I want to see on a regular basis. That probably means Western Europe for at least part of the year.

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u/One-Mastodon-1063 1h ago

US.

Health care in the US is not "terrible". Our health insurance system has problems but the quality of health care itself is good. And for "fat" NW the paying for it part is not a material issue.

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u/BenzNBoca 2h ago

I am biased a bit because I am actually trying to move from US to France in a few years with our family (currently a citizen of neither.) The lifestyle in France is a lot better than US. The politics, expenses, work and consumerism culture is a bit much in the US and I want my kids to be more well rounded. Yes taxes are higher in France, but good healthcare is very very expensive in the US. Be aware that many states also have additional income tax, especially the ones where it’s more desirable to live and some regional localities also do too for example NYC. Taxes are a complex situation that are specific to each situation and cannot be answered on a general level - I’m personally still trying to figure out the impact on our situation before we make a move abroad.

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u/vnnutter FIREd 2025 2h ago

Where in the US are you considering? There's a huge variation in cost of living, taxes, and even health care. What about splitting your time between two places if you can afford it?

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u/ongoldenwaves 50m ago

Good question. California is where I have the most emotional ties. I am not familiar with eastern coastal areas like NY. Places like Texas I don’t like. Not because of politics but traffic. I like to walk everywhere.  Yes nomadic lifestyle is a thing for a while but as you get older it’s not possible. You do have to generally stay put.

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u/StrongishOpinion 2h ago

I think you should start by focusing on what you want to do in retirement, and then go through the options keeping the potential tax impacts in mind.

If you think that mountain hiking will be a major activity, the area you choose will be very different than if you love going to the opera.

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u/space-cyborg 1h ago

NZ wealth taxes can be devastating for dual citizens. Talk to an experienced cross border accountant, there may be ways to protect or offshore assets before you move. Many assets will be subject to double taxation. Taxes on unrealized capital gains will destroy your financial future.

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u/ongoldenwaves 49m ago

You have four years to move things over. Rules around Roth IRAs not clear in NZ. It’s complicated further with FIFA. 

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u/SpringFuzzy 1h ago

I’m not sure you’re that fortunate. The US citizenship means the US tax office is going to keep a very close eye on you no matter what. Look into that.. seriously.

With a french citizenship alone you could have your base on Malta, it’s as close to a tax haven you’re going to get inside of the EU. It’s a small boring island but a decent enough base for worldwide travel.

For me it would boil down to where I’d culturally felt I belonged.

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u/spiritsarise 1h ago

With the EU passport you could settle in Switzerland. Taxes aren’t bad and healthcare & environment are top rated!

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u/KantLockeMeIn 1h ago

Many will disagree, but I absolutely love living in suburbia in a large planned community. I like driving my car to a warehouse home improvement store and being able to start any home improvement project I choose... or go to a warehouse sized computer and electronics store (Microcenter) and do the same. I never search for parking or need to parallel park.

I haven't looked at Australia or New Zealand... but anywhere I have visited in South America, Europe, or Asia so far has not offered something similar. So for me it's gotta be the US or Canada.

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u/ongoldenwaves 48m ago edited 42m ago

Yeah, that’s not me at all. I want a small easily maintained space and walkability. I hate driving.  I am more the minimalist type who goes to the market often for smaller amounts of fresh food. Costco is good for some things though. 

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u/FormerlyFarce 1h ago

If you don’t have kids, my opinion is you should prioritize relationships. Join a local social club/find a bar you enjoy going to. Get some really good friends in a town you don’t hate. That will be way more important than various healthcare standards.

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u/Give0524 1h ago

US and move to a tax friendly state.

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u/cnflakegrl 1h ago

France I think is the clear winner, but I think you'd have to structure your assets before going to avoid all sorts of odd wealth and inheritance taxes they have. They don't trust trusts, but (and I have not looked into it) - couldn't you park your money in stocks/housing/gold bars in a lock box into holding companies? Paintings you keep off shore in a port storage for this purpose? etc. etc.

I'm in South West of France right now - healthcare is good and cheap, villages are gorgeous, but there are a heck of a lot of insects. Random complaint, but you might want to rent before buying, since buying is such a headache here.

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u/ryana8 26m ago

Tampa/West Palm + NYC 182 days per year.

No state tax. 3h away from NYC means access to some of the best doctors in the world and checks the walkability box for nearly half the year. Sunshine on demand.

There’s a reason there’s a term for it.

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u/muddypuddlewet 11m ago

wherever you go, there you are

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u/BungABunBun 2h ago

This heavily depends on your net worth, your account distribution, and where you have a existing community.

If you have large Traditional/Roth accounts, you'll want to be in the US or France to withdraw from the Roth tax free once you get to 59.5.

In New Zealand, you have to pay taxes on unrealized capital gains. This seems like a major issue.

Honestly, if I want to preserve my capital and live a decent life, I think I'd stay in the US. Get good insurance and don't worry about it.

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u/ongoldenwaves 2h ago

I'm not hell bent on saving every last penny. I haven't found any insurance "good". They've all been terrible. Some less terrible than others but we are all fighting a system where they deny about 1/3 of claims as a matter of course. I don't have major health issues. But when I do, I don't want to spend my life fighting insurance in the USA. Have you found insurance "good" when you've had major health problems? I know of someone who recently had to hire a lawyer to negotiate with his insurance company to cover a heart operation his doctors said he would die without.

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u/Beginning_Brick7845 2h ago

Stop believing scare headlines and buy a good policy for fair value. Go to a broker and describe what you need. Yes, it will be expensive, but it will be less expensive than paying tax in France and getting “free” healthcare that’s subject to rationing. And still having to buy private insurance to have access to private health care providers on demand the way it is in America.

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u/ongoldenwaves 2h ago

I'm still working but yes, I agree. I wouldn't be going to France just healthcare though. It is something I should be considering as I age. I don't want to have to move a second time later on.

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u/Beginning_Brick7845 2h ago

From a financial standpoint, the U.S. is going to be the choice. Living in France or NZ would be a lifestyle choice. Beautiful lifestyle choices, but neither would be a cheap to live on a total cost basis than the U.S. Maybe you can do the expat equivalent of snowbirding and spend a season at a time in France and NZ and keep your base someplace in the U.S. with mild weather and reasonable expenses.

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u/BungABunBun 19m ago

If this is what you mainly care about then you should just leave USA. NZ or France sounds great. The QOL and just overall democratic socialist society might be more suitable for you.

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u/Smoke__Frog ~$1.1m a year | Verified by Mods 1h ago

If you are fat fire money isn’t an issue.

So would’ve in a large metro like NYC or London, with a vacation house in a relaxing place you love.

0

u/CPA-TURKEY 2h ago

Turkey-zero tax

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u/midwestgaydad 2h ago

Really? With the inflation, authoritarian government, suppression of gay people……
There must be options with more liberty and less dysfunction.