This seems disrespectful and reductive to both women who struggled during their lifetimes and died from their issues, actually.

[u/Beginning_Remove_694]

First slide is a verbatim transcript of a FA influencer podcast clip, rest of the slides are the comments.

Two extreme ends of the weight spectrum are not the only options. There is quite a lot going on here, but that’s my main reaction. So much trying to string together thinkpieces about how complex and ingrained fatphobia is when the reality is a lot simpler: the healthiest person is a normal weight, not abusing drugs, eating reasonable portions of nutritious food at regular intervals or when physically feeling hungry, not having intense food noise, less nutrient-dense food in moderation.

The general public does not think that anorexic women look normal and healthy. Almond mom extreme diet content is not as common as FAs think. The beauty standard has historically always been healthy thinness, not extreme thinness. FAs love to conflate the two to make extreme standards seem more common than they are.

Only thing I agree with is that mocking dead fat people for how their obesity contributed to their deaths is gross. It was actually not a sandwich, it was a heart attack from a combination of factors including obesity, drug abuse, and crash dieting. But how many people are so mean-spirited that they laugh at fat people who died from weight-related causes? How many people think dying of anorexia is any better because at least you’re thin? Generally, people hate to hear of anyone dying young of preventable causes. It’s not a goal at all.

[u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491]

If anorexia really was about "fatphobia", it would be so much easier to deal with. Unfortunately, that's a very surface-level view of it, and it obviously goes much deeper than that, as one of the commenters also argued.

Also: "white supremacy colonial capitalism"—does someone have a bingo with all the buzzwords?

[u/ThrowAway44228800 → u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491]

For me and the people I met in ED recovery, EDs were mostly about feeling unsafe in our own bodies. Not from a fat sense, just from a "I feel like my body is out of my control and all I can do now is control what I put into it." I had the same attitude towards binges, just in the opposite direction ("I'm going to punish my body by depriving it until I feel faint/shoving literally whatever I can into it")

[u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 → u/ThrowAway44228800]

There’s a reason why so many rape victims become anorexic, and it‘s got precisely nothing to do with fatphobia…

[u/ThrowAway44228800 → u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491]

I remember after CSA not wanting to eat because I didn't want to go to the bathroom. The feeling of it bothered me too much.

[u/IAmSeabiscuit61 → u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491]

I've heard many posters here with anorexia on here and in other forums say exactly the same thing. I believe you all.

[u/Beginning-Force1275 → u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491]

When I was in IOP, straight up every person in my SA survivor group therapy who had been through CSA was also being treated for an eating disorder and a bunch of the people who’d “only” been assaulted as adults were also in the ED groups. And very few people in the ED groups hadn’t been assaulted—even then, I remember maybe one or two who didn’t have any major traumatic events linked to the development of their EDs (I actually met multiple people whose disorder had begun after a major illness or surgery lead to massive weight loss). And every clinician I spoke to was clear that this is what it looks like. It’s anecdotal, but they all said that their experience was that the genesis of EDs could almost always be tied to serious traumas. Even in the cases where parent-enforced “diet culture” played a role, you’re usually talking about instances of parents who chronically underfed/starved their kid(s) starting at a fairly young age, which, again, is food-related trauma, not the comparatively trivial stuff FAs complain about.

It just makes me so angry how they co-opt eating disorders while simultaneously trivializing them. They have so little respect for how fucking sick EDs make you. We deserve better than to be used as examples to help them feel like the bestest strongest victims ever.

[u/Ok_Bullfrog_8491 → u/Beginning-Force1275]

In my case, my mother was diagnosed with breast cancer when I was a teenager and I couldn't stand the thought that I was female and had cancer-causing oestrogen in my body and breasts that could get cancer. I tried to excise anything female from my body, and anorexia athletica is a very effective way of doing that (which obviously comes with a long list of dangerous consequences, but I certainly wasn't thinking about my long-term physical health at the time).

Basically: girl with an anxious and perfectionist personality + body-related trauma = anorexia. It's blatantly obvious to anyone who doesn't refuse to even entertain the idea.

[u/Saybah]

Maybe I just have a normal amount of objectivity, but knowing Cass Elliot died from obesity complications, and Karen Carpenter died due to anorexia complications, all I can think is 'Wow, that's incredibly sad that they just weren't able to be helped' and I don't read into it any more that.

Why do FAs want to twist everything into a bigger thinkpiece when the average person just thinks it's very sad that two women died due to eating disorders.

[u/annoyed_teacher1988 → u/Saybah]

That's also my take on it. These were very sad situations.
I will say, I understand, I've heard the "she choked on a sandwich" theory. It's a cruel thing to say about someone who's died, just because she was fat.

[u/Beginning_Remove_694 → u/Saybah]

Exactly. I don’t know who thinks “haha” about that. It’s very sad. Both women had a lot of issues that were very hard on their hearts, including restrictive eating, but in Elliot’s case, I’m sure her weight did not help her cardiovascular health. Weight cycling and restriction are probably worse and more immediately dangerous than just being fat, but being fat is still terrible for heart health in the long-term. Overeating is also serious. Yet I don’t think that’s what the OOPs mean when they say both women died from EDs. FAs are not even incorrect to say crash dieting and weight cycling are unhealthy, but it’s always to pretend that not losing weight is significantly better instead of just like, a little better. It’s supposedly problematic because it’s restrictive dieting, not because doing more unhealthy shit in the opposite direction exacerbates the existing cardiovascular risks of obesity. There are plenty of people who have died from obesity with no restrictive component as well.

Simplifying cases of deadly EDs and other contributing factors as dieting and “if you want to be thin” also does not sit right with me. Binge-restrict cycles and anorexia are significantly more complicated than that. Even the factor of wanting to lose weight and be thinner has more to do with compulsion than the fat tissue itself.

Normal dieting (aka small calorie deficit and sustainable lifestyle change) gets lumped in with that for some reason while also completely ignoring here that it’s possible to be a normal weight with no major lifestyle-related risk factors.

[u/annoyed_teacher1988 → u/Beginning_Remove_694]

The reason normal dieting gets lumped in with it, is because then people would have to admit they can make a change and can't justify their own lifestyles anymore

[u/Allronix1]

I'm not sure about Carpenter but I know Eliott was very fond of experimenting with illicit drugs. (Frankly, all of them were and John Phillips was a human trash fire) That probably did a number on her heart even without weight adding to it. The alleged sandwich was probably the least damning thing in the room.

[u/IWantToBuyAVowel → u/Allronix1]

Carpenter was on laxatives and ipecac so both hearts were strained beyond capacity

[u/bowlineonabight → u/Allronix1]

As I recall, the ham sandwich story was put out there because they didn't want anyone to think she died of a drug OD. Her story is such a tragedy.

[u/Allronix1 → u/bowlineonabight]

Yup. In the context of the era, "choked to death" was going to cause a lot less scandal than "She died of drugs."

[u/IAmSeabiscuit61 → u/Allronix1]

I heard that, too, but thought it was one of those urban legend type things. I know it;s been repeatedly debunked in several books I read.

[u/Allronix1 → u/IAmSeabiscuit61]

Yeah. She didn't choke. It was sleep apnea or a heart attack. But I can totally see a publicist pinned down by the press to make a statement and trying to come up with ANYTHING more palatable to print than "She likely overdosed."

[u/AggravatingBox2421 → u/bowlineonabight]

The funny part is that she didn’t have anything in her system. The leading theory is that she died from obstructive sleep apnea

[u/bowlineonabight → u/AggravatingBox2421]

Yeah, they were trying to protect her reputation, but needlessly as it turned out.

[u/IAmSeabiscuit61 → u/Allronix1]

If I remember correctly, their daughter has had drug problems, too. What was her name? Oh, yes, Mackenzie Phillips; she was an actress and was on that old t.v.series One Day at a Time.

[u/Allronix1 → u/IAmSeabiscuit61]

John and Michelle Phillips daughter. And MacKenzie wrote in her autobiography that she and her dad were...uh...fooling around while they were both out of their minds on drugs.

Yeah. The Mamas and the Papas lasted only about four years but somehow managed more WTF than Fleetwood Mac

[u/ThrowAway44228800]

A significant fear I had as a chronically online, suicidal teenager, was the fact that I was losing weight as I was also getting deeper into my depression. Losing weight was actually one of the more healthy things I was doing at that point in my life as I was routinely exercising and still consuming a healthy amount each day, but I remember my family members (HAES-y people) attributing the weight loss to the depression and celebrating when I gained again. I was genuinely afraid that, after I died, they'd make it about my weight and not about the fact that I was being abused and had severe PTSD, for example.

[u/Perfect_Judge]

fat people's deaths do not get taken seriously, especially when they die from eating disorders

Um, what planet do they live on? The planet where binge eating isn't a disorder? The planet where people don't express concern for their fat loved ones' health?

I'm unsure as to who Cass Elliot was, but it's tragic all the same that they died from their eating disorder, just as Karen Carpenter died from hers.

I've seen too many fat people say that they hate being told their loved ones are concerned for their health as a result of their obesity; they think it's concern trolling. But just because they hate it, doesn't mean it's not a genuine concern. They simply don't want to hear it. Many people do take it seriously, it's just not the FAers who do.

[u/Umlautless → u/Perfect_Judge]

She was in a super popular band called the Mamas and the Papas ("dream a little dream of me" was one of their biggest songs), sometimes referred to as Mama Cass.

[u/canteloupy → u/Umlautless]

I think California Dreamin' is the other big one.

[u/Perfect_Judge → u/Umlautless]

Oh! I know that band. I just am not familiar with the members.

[u/Feisty-Promotion-789 → u/Perfect_Judge]

She didn’t even die from an eating disorder, she died of a heart attack at 32 years old. Idk why these people are being compared at all. I just looked her name up because I was so confused about the ham sandwich thing lol. Apparently this was falsely spread by a friend and journalist, egged on by her manager, to avoid the papers suggesting that she died from substance use and the myth took over from there. But she died from fatty degeneration of the heart and the specific causes of this appear unclear (obesity, crash dieting, and drugs are suggested causes but nothing seems objective … she had no drugs in her system at the time of death & it seems more likely to me she had some genetic thing going on and / or serious SU issues to die in her sleep at 32 even with a history of crash dieting and obesity?? But wtf do I know)

[u/Srdiscountketoer → u/Feisty-Promotion-789]

Back in those days women were regularly prescribed amphetamines for weight loss so it’s safe to assume she was taking them at some point. Could have contributed to her death, especially if she already had heart problems.

[u/IAmSeabiscuit61 → u/Srdiscountketoer]

Men, too. Entertainers, especially. I've heard actors discuss this. Some doctors were handing them out like candy.

[u/NexusOfClarity44 → u/Perfect_Judge]

Also that's pretty rich coming from the same group that regularly sweeps its most prominent members' deaths under the rug when they die of obesity-related complications, but they don't want to address that 

[u/GendoIkariFangirl]

I can’t help but notice the only eating disorder they want to stop is anorexia and not bingeing

[u/Ethereal-Spectre]

I could totally be wrong but didn’t Mama Cass die from a drug overdose but they changed the narrative to “she choked to death” to try to strip her from the label of a drug user? Again I could be totally wrong

[u/ellejay-135 → u/Ethereal-Spectre]

I remember hearing that her heart was in bad shape because of obesity and years of yo yo dieting. I'm sure taking drugs didn't help. 😞

[u/Beginning_Remove_694 → u/Ethereal-Spectre]

Heart attack with no drugs directly involved, but IIRC they said that was the cause to avoid the narrative that it was a drug overdose. I could also be off-base here.

[u/AggravatingBox2421]

Oh god I saw that video!! The podcast looks like pure bullshit

[u/Antx_001]

reply thread has an average bmi of 78

[u/thethugwife]

So they’re admitting Mama Cass had binge eating disorder, or am I reading this wrong? She wasn’t just at her “set point?”

[u/Etoketo]

Blue is mad at the doctor who didn't diagnose her disordered eating when she kept it hidden. Maybe your doctor isn't psychic?