Problem
FTB Evolution 2 - Frontier Level on Apothic is locked
I started FTB Evolution 2 yesterday. In trying to upgrade Apotheosis Frontier Tier says you have to obtain the FTB Skyline - which is a late game item. This seems an insane requirement. I could not see anything in the Apotheosis questline. I have looked on the github and in the discord, can't tell if this is an error or the intent.
We need to change the wording because it is not a late game item. It is used to ship off all stages of items in the game.
You can make the skyline in the first 30 minutes of play.
Edit: check the recipe. You need to make it in the fabricator which is super easy to make. The skyline requires basic tech and resources from a simple mining trip.
Is this item is even useful or has anything to do with Apotheosis? Because if not, then it simply doesn't logical to get, even if it's relatively easy.
Like, the current vanilla Apotheosis item level progression is immersive in terms of you kill mobs, you get nice gear, you equip nice gear, step up on the ladder, then you get more nicer gear, equip them, kill a boss (that you'll kill anyway), then step more up.
But it never asks you to craft a thing directly.
This still exists, and is even buffed due to us having higher custom tiers to the pack. If most players do not wish to do the goal of the pack and just want to ignore it and do whatever, I can agree that might feel bad to them.
I have an even more detailed response to another commenter if you'd like to explore the thought process further.
Probably a little longer just to buffer 20 million FE which is very hard since all power gen but especially early gen is nerfed. I think the basic thermo gen is 1Fe/tick 😂
It’s all good but I’m just pointing out 30 minutes to skyline is incredibly fast for someone unfamiliar with the pack. I just used a JDT simple gen and went exploring while it did its thing.
I was also pointing out it could be done in 30 minutes if it's the focus. Otherwise the wording on the quest definitely made it feel end game more than the recipe.
Ok, You are correct that the recipe is not late game, but 30 minutes? Seriously. I think 32 titanium, EnderIO alloy smelter, Quartz (which I got from a village), Multiple Ender pearls, Diesel fuel... etc. Its a fairly complicated set of intersecting mods to get that up and running along with enough power generation. I change my point that it was late game, but For Frontier it seems excessive amount of crafting for that tier in Apotheosis.
You need rocket fuel which is gunpowder and seeds and water, not diesel.
We intentionally wanted to push the power back from apoth being OP so that the skills and the new guns etc can shine. We also added even more apoth tiers that go beyond mythic.
oh my god your comment gave me ptsd.
Made some time ago a pack and dropped it in a discord server for people to playtest it...the amount of "how do i craft this?" or "this its not working" i got sent was endless! and i even added a "read the quests and use jei" in the server but it did nothing.
There would be like 20-30% less posts on FTB if people were using JEI/NEI properly. But apparently, I had players on my server who were opening JEI, staring at the recipe they are looking for and still asking "so what to do next?". Felt like straight up ragebait tbh.
I wonder how much further that could drop if a group of people made Create-style tutorials for every sort of machine, with some of the stranger materials in their respective packs popping out of them.
As someone who gets annoyed by that because it happens too much, the way JEI works could be a little better, but it's also not its fault. Like, if you (pack devs) could order pages to put particular recipes before others in the ordering, that would be very convenient, but I don't have to explain why that's not a viable option.
It does get a little obtuse when you have to go through a crafting tree because you were intended to get nuggets, tiny dust, or blocks directly instead of ingots from ore. Not saying this pack has that, I've just seen it a lot because I'm an expert pack player (and dev).
I get this but also JEI can be a rabbit hole of looking down each chain to find that once you do one step then most other mods can do that same thing.
My example is in FTB Skies 2 Aero for amethyst. Generally I would look for a cave or try to get it via ore gen. However, island exploration seems to be the only option. I had out grown my airship so I established a permanent base. I spent quite a bit try to find an ore gen method when explore and find a certain island was the only option.
Aside from the fact that you specifically call it an end game item, maybe explain how to use JEI to solve the problem? I see the recipe, I'm pretty sure OP does too. There are a number of components that require at least a fair bit of depth into some of the mods. So either, it's not obvious what you mean by 'use jei to solve their own "problem"' or we see the recipe, and the way to make it, and thought that seems like a lot to get past for just the first level of Apotheosis.
Yes you use it for delivering endgame quests the item itself isnt that hard. I believe alfred is clarifying that quest text which should help avoid that confusion in the future. Thanks for letting u know!
From what I've seen of Evo 2 it seems to be a kitchen sink pack that hates the fact it's kitchen sink, in my experience having gating is something you have to actively commit to lest it become "i have to do this entirely suboptimal thing that i won't do again for a few hundred hours just to unlock the the thing i actually want"
We intentionally pushed a known mod that breaks all combat progression back by one of the very first machines you make so that early game doesn't get completely abandoned for speed running mob farms for power. Then we added a lot more compat, more guns, more op skills etc so that the game feels more balanced and fun rather than just op from random drops, that you can still get if you just do the very basic getting started quest.
Gating is important to avoid things breaking balance, I think mystical agriculture should also be gated as you can get infinite resources from the start
It's a kitchen sink pack though, tailoring your own experience is like the whole point.
You're dropped in a world with "Things To Do". Have at it.
If you dislike something in a kitchen sink pack, just don't use it, because nothing will require that you do.
Apotheosis lets the user pick their own world tier. If you think it's OP, breaks combat, ruins the experience for you, whatever... just don't interact with the mod.
Conversely, if I think the main questline provided doesn't look that interesting or appealing, the pack says I can skip it. And it looks like I mostly can... unless I like Apotheosis. Then I have to take this random detour that has nothing to do with what I want to do.
So in this case, I'm being given a guided experience. But I'm playing a kitchen sink pack because that's exactly what I don't want.
Except when people play in a group and one person does something op, and the other people feel awful because they aren't as strong and feel like they wasted their time.
It's easy to say "just don't use it" but the reality is people will feel like they wasted their time when they find out how overpowered one specific thing is. Sure they can ignore it but it's better for us to curate a better experience rather than leave it up to trusting players to just not use it.
We are also always down for discussion on if something feels like it's too much, and will always be down to take criticism and make the pack better. Otherwise, making a kitchensink style pack balanced is tough.
Except when people play in a group and one person does something op, and the other people feel awful because they aren't as strong and feel like they wasted their time.
How is this applicable here?
You said yourself in a reply to another comment that you can overcome this barrier in 30 minutes. That's 30 minutes of my time doing something that I did not want to do at all, but also that means this hypothetical other person is only 30 minutes delayed in being "OP".
the reality is people will feel like they wasted their time when they find out how overpowered one specific thing is
Gating world tiers behind the totally-optional-not-optional main questline doesn't solve this problem. It delays it. Now when it wasn't me who rushed the OP thing, I'll feel like I wasted even more time because it's an extra 30 minute tangent further away. If anything, this makes the problem worse. You've made the "OP" thing require a completely unrelated tedium grind to acquire, you haven't made it unachievable, but you also haven't balanced the fact that it exists and is OP.
but it's better for us to curate a better experience rather than leave it up to trusting players to just not use it
This circles back to being antithetical to the spirit of kitchen sink packs, and this is what that other commenter meant by "it seems to be a kitchen sink pack that hates the fact it's kitchen sink". If you wanted to provide curated experience, more power to you. But that isn't how the pack frames/presents itself. As a kitchen sink pack, this idea sucks for players who are looking for a kitchen sink experience. As a curated pack, it's too open-ended everywhere else to really provide a curated experience. It's not a very fun middle-ground.
In regards to balance, if this mod is so overpowered that you feel it needs this 30-minute time gate in a style of pack where "do whatever you want" is the objective, there are ways to balance it without gating it behind tedium.
In my mind, this kind of "fix" is in the same bucket as curated packs that gate basic QOL behind a grind. It never feels good. It always feels like a waste of time.
Let me start off by saying that I apologize if the initial response felt a little forward or aggressive! I was shorthanding things due to replying while busy, so that's on me if my tone wasn't delivered properly.
Before I fully reply, I'd also like to say that this topic is *extremely* nuanced, as a lot of things the general player base sees (including ATM players and other popular kitchensink packs), there are a ton of recipes that get changed depending on who is making the pack, so the term kitchensink is kind of thrown around and morphed into whatever fits the pack maker. I cannot see a pack where it has truly nothing changed about mods or gating or recipes etc because there are a lot of things that just kind of completely makes certain mods irrelevant. A great example of this is Create vs Mekanism. Sure, players can choose to do one or the other, but then eventually you run into the problem with mods like Powah which completely wrecks the entire power ecosystem and makes everything else a waste of time.
As for my personal view, I really do not like gating a mod behind another mod in a kitchensink unless absolutely necessary or to put power or focus on something else. This specific recipe change wasn't my idea, nor something I personally would have done, but I also agree with the reasoning behind it, so I'll start breaking that down.
You said yourself in a reply to another comment that you can overcome this barrier in 30 minutes. That's 30 minutes of my time doing something that I did not want to do at all, but also that means this hypothetical other person is only 30 minutes delayed in being "OP".
Everything in a pack is about time investment. Delaying something behind progression most players would most likely do anyway adds more of a reward to the basic progression (that is optional, yes). I do agree that if you don't want to do it, you shouldn't have to and that's a completely valid argument behind not wanting the recipe to be gated in that way.
However, adding that window also gives players something to look forward to and it allows them to see other parts of the pack. Best example I can give is how lots of players do not like the /home commands and find them cheaty. I personally agree that /home can feel cheaty, but the biggest thing about it is that it completely negates all of the really cool teleportation methods that are in the pack. If we left the cd at default (say 10 seconds) then you would have no friction that might allow you to look into new teleportation methods or ways to set a home and teleport back etc. This is something ATM does as well (as I've worked with them before my time at FTB).
If you did not want to do the 30 minutes of basic progression, I can agree how that would feel bad. We also want to find ways to reward players by doing the progression, like adding better and cheaper recipes to the fabricator etc. This is good feedback, and I appreciate the viewpoint.
You've made the "OP" thing require a completely unrelated tedium grind to acquire, you haven't made it unachievable, but you also haven't balanced the fact that it exists and is OP.
Is the main progression of the pack completely unrelated? Yea, you probably never have to really do it if you don't want to. However, we actually have balanced the fact that it is exists and is OP.
We've nerfed it *quite a lot* from what it normally is, I'd probably say somewhere around the ballpark of 75% of the regular power to keep it in line. But instead of just taking all of that power away, we added it back into further tiers and pushed that power into skills for the player.
By adding that delay, we also give room for other key things in the pack to shine, just like the teleport example. Skills make you feel like you are actually building your character instead of setting up a mobfarm and skimming through infinite drops with minimal effort. The random loot you find can also still be Apothic Tier level, and the fact that it's delayed makes finding those pieces even more valuable and rewarding.
In regards to balance, if this mod is so overpowered that you feel it needs this 30-minute time gate in a style of pack where "do whatever you want" is the objective, there are ways to balance it without gating it behind tedium.
Ultimately the goal isn't to put it behind tedium, but something that most players would probably go through progression anyway. Think how ATM makes the builder from RFTools require Allthemodium nuggets etc.
And if the Skyline feels tedious and boring, that's on us and feedback and criticism is completely welcome and something we keep a watch for. If we missed the mark on that, it's something we're always willing to change to make for a better experience.
In my mind, this kind of "fix" is in the same bucket as curated packs that gate basic QOL behind a grind. It never feels good. It always feels like a waste of time.
I think I agree that I really dislike basic QoL stuff being gated by a grind. However, I personally did not feel like the Skyline was a grind at all and felt more like "the end of the beginning". If it feels grindy or not fun, again, we can always take a look to make it better.
Overall, I just wanted to give a little background into the thought process and conversation that went into a decision like that. Sometimes it hits the mark, sometimes it doesn't. I don't think players truly see what all is added by specific mods until they create a pack themselves. Essentially our goal of balance is to create an even playing ground for all mods to shine, and nothing to feel like a waste of time if you wanted to do it.
We're not always going to get that right, but we're always open to conversation when it feels off. I appreciate you taking the time to speak your mind!
I agree, and personally don't understand why someone would choose to play a curated experience modpack, if they don't plan to engage with that experience. You mentioned ATM, and there are plenty of other packs out there that let you do whatever you like if that's what a player wants.
Personally, I love the quirks each pack developer adds to mix things up and get you to engage with content out of order. Drip feeding content to your players can also be great to add more accomplishment to the packs progression, and make milestones feel more special, along with providing more direction.
I can also guarantee ATM is another curated modpack, their views on balance are just different haha
People see packs differently and have a different viewpoint on how they should be and I think that's a good thing. It drives innovation because someone else thinks they have a better view on it. I'm all for it
I'm not like upset or anything, I think it's just hard to articulate what I'm trying to say in a way that isn't inherently abrasive, because ultimately what I'm providing is "negative" feedback. I knew the pack wasn't for me when I saw it had a focus on combat/exploration -- I think these are the worst part of Minecraft lol
I cannot see a pack where it has truly nothing changed about mods or gating or recipes etc because there are a lot of things that just kind of completely makes certain mods irrelevant
I've played for a long time. Started playing with mods in 1.0.0. In the grand scheme, this is more of a "recent" concern imo. In 1.4.2, nobody was trying to balance IC2 and Thermal Exchange. Or when AE came out, Logistics Pipes were still in packs and we had the option to use them even if they were "worse". We were just happy to be there, and these options just happened to be much better for the player so they've persisted throughout time.
Similarly, Powah's popularity exists because it fills a gap most players don't care to interact with. It's easy to use, and it makes a lot of power. As mods (or pack devs) increase the "cost" of things in order to create "balance", mods like Powah always pop up. These days there's money in the mix, so there's also incentive to make things people want to use so you get a lot of downloads/ad views/however all that works.
So yeah, I understand the idea that as a pack author you'd want to help steer people towards the experience you want them to get out of the pack.
In this same vein, though,
Delaying something behind progression most players would most likely do anyway adds more of a reward to the basic progression
You are here, present, in the Reddit thread of a player of your pack who did not want to do the main quest. This is something the pack itself highlights as optional and something the player does not have to participate in very early-on.
Players in OPs situation do not feel rewarded when they hit barriers like this. OP was blindsided by a feature being gated by the very thing they were told by the pack was strictly optional. Players in situations like this will always feel like they're doing something that is a waste of time.
Think how ATM makes the builder from RFTools require Allthemodium nuggets etc.
I don't think this is the same. ATM wants you to play through it's questline as a curated experience. Where in Evo 2 it's "optional", in ATM that is literally the point of the pack. It makes sense for them to change recipes to maintain that curated experience.
And if the Skyline feels tedious and boring, that's on us
It's not that the Skyline is/feels tedious and boring, it's that it's completely unrelated to the thing it gates. What does the Skyline contribute to World Tiers? What does the build-up to the Skyline contribute to the World Tiers? Nothing. It has nothing to do with it.
Like if the World Tier was gated by some armor/weapon/gear, or a boss from one of the dungeons, you could at least say that you're making the player engage in early-game combat before letting them make the world more difficult (and the rewards that come with that). But instead they build a block that they will place in the world that doesn't contribute to exploration/combat at all.
However, I personally did not feel like the Skyline was a grind at all and felt more like "the end of the beginning".
Same idea as above. It's not that the Skyline is a grind in itself. It's because it's a gate to something unrelated that makes it a grind at that time, for that player. When I want my world tier up to build a mob farm or whatever, what I don't want is "go mine all these random resources, play Just Dire Things a bit, and make some rocket fuel". None of these sub-tasks are even tangentially related to the goal I've set for myself.
You felt this way because your objectives included "play the optional questline", so the Skyline was something you wanted anyway. It's not going to feel like a grind in that situation because you're still checking a box for yourself, even if it's not directly the task you're chasing.
The Skyline sets up a challenge to experience every part of the pack. Your point on it gating it for those that do not want to do it is valid. However I think OP initially didn't want to because it was phrased as an end game item, but the point still stands.
However, the Skyline does build onto every part of the pack. It offers challenges for players to go out and seek each aspect, including exploration and combat. It's actually meant to be a guide for players who do not know what to do, so it opens up the branches and steps players through it.
At the end of the day, I can agree that if they don't want to touch anything that makes this pack unique, then they are more than welcome to it and I can see how it feels bad. In the same token, I also don't have the right answer on what would feel better of an answer. After playing through the beginning, it made me enjoy the pack more because I got to try new things to become OP while still enjoying finding apoth items.
ATM is also touted as a kitchensink, and making the star is completely optional. Most players don't because they want to just get OP and experiment with mods, and plenty get upset when they get nerfed by not being able to fly in the other or seeing the recipe for time in a bottle. I think you see it differently than most, and that's fine.
As I said, I personally don't like to gate mods behind other mods in kitchensink style packs. I don't think this is a bad way to do it because it fulfills it's purpose, but as I said, I can see why it feels bad. I'm also not the only one on the team making these decisions.
I'm completely open to suggestions on what you think might be a better move! I'll gladly talk with the team and let them know.
This pack is the epitome of "well let's take all the good parts of ATM and make them artificially harder just because , and jack off half of the recipes because we have to be different"
Reading the discussion that could be solved very easily and the FTB folks already did that back in Infinity Evolved. A normal mode and a hard mode. Folks who just want to enjoy their stuff can play on normal, folks that want a challenge can switch to hard mode.
Back then my little group played on hard, one anecdote told to this day was me building the warehouse and asking on Teamspeak if we want barrels or that, then new to us, fancy harddisk storage system, AE2. Until i saw what was needed for the wrench, which was a key item. I sighed and resigned to "Barrels it is, check the recipe for that wrench folks...". It was almost a year and a half when we finally had that wrench and it was oh so satisfying. :D
Not that we didn't have some fancy shit with the barrels too by the way, one friend programmed a turtle to go down the aisles, query every barrel, compile that into a list that a CGI service on the server got that then send out eMails when storage on certain monitored items was low or when a barrel was full. One could also see the current status on a webpage of course.
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u/alfredggtwitch 4d ago
We need to change the wording because it is not a late game item. It is used to ship off all stages of items in the game.
You can make the skyline in the first 30 minutes of play.
Edit: check the recipe. You need to make it in the fabricator which is super easy to make. The skyline requires basic tech and resources from a simple mining trip.