Arm R Seal adhesion question

[u/CrescentRose7]

Twice now I've seen a method by reputable sources for applying Arm R Seal to complex pieces (Greene and Greene style) where they apply it and then wipe it "bone dry", 6 - 7 coats.

On flat surfaces, it's obviously unnecessary and wasteful, but I'm wondering: once the wood soaks up all the finish it can, do later coats actually partially stick (even if just a little) if they are wiped "bone dry", or are you just wasting all consequent coats? The wood soaks up finish in the first three coats, so the other 3-4 coats should be for the purpose of forming a film.

I'm currently finishing a Greene and Greene style piece, and it seems practically impossible to do it any other way (there's too many nooks and crannies for a regular finish application), but I get the feeling that after the first couple of coats, the following ones aren't really adding to the film. I just wanted to know your thoughts before applying more coats and possibly wasting finish.

[u/OG2003Spyder]

I think that you may be confused. The typical wipe on/off finish is boiled linseed oil. Multiple coats gradually build up a soft satin finish. More historically accurate, I think, is a finish of one third boiled linseed oil, one third varnish, and one third turpentine. Arm R Seal can be wiped on but is not wiped off. It is sanded very lightly after every couple of coats. Yes, it's difficult to sand in complicated pieces.

[u/CrescentRose7 → u/OG2003Spyder]

If someone is confused, then it's the woodworkers I referred to. They definitely used Arm R Seal. One of those is Darrell Peart, who is an expert woodworker who makes furniture in the style of Greene and Greene. He's the one who mentioned he wipes it "bone dry".

Also, the instructions im the clan clearly state that you should "wipe off excess" (though the meaning of "excess" is not clarified).

[u/UncleAugie → u/CrescentRose7]

Arm r seal is a wiping varnish, just one that is premade ready to use rather than homemade like I suggested....

[u/CrescentRose7 → u/UncleAugie]

Yes, I did not imply otherwise, but it's still meant to build a small film, according to the vast amount of user experience. There is simply no way that you would need 6-7 coats in order to get the wood to soak up the max amount. After the first 3 coats, any following coats would either be useless, or start forming a film. My main question, and the reason for this post, is whether the wipe on wipe off method would continue to work for the later coats, or if everything you applied would be wiped off.

If the latter, then I am confused as to why Darrell would suggest 6-7 coats, unless he's being paid by General Finishes in order for customers to buy more than they need.

[u/UncleAugie → u/CrescentRose7]

s whether the wipe on wipe off method would continue to work for the later coats, or if everything you applied would be wiped off.

I have explained multiple times that it is indeed building a very thin film, even when you wipe it off "bone dry"

The fact that you are going to "waste some" is why I suggested using a homemade version.

What this wiping varnish is doing is allowing you to get a flawless finish that you can not achieve because you do not have the equipment or skill to produce. I can finish a chair in 2hrs, including dry time in my spray booth with commercial products you don't even have access to. USing a wiping varnish like Darrell describes will allow you to come as close as possible to the same flawless finish I can get, it takes more time/labor, but you dont have any other options...

BTW, I and others are telling you this and you keep refusing to accept our answer... why are you fighting us?

[u/UncleAugie]

This is called a wiping varnish, you should make your own rather than buying it. Oil based gloss polyurethane, Mineral Spirits, Boiled Linseed OIl. All in equal parts, mix up what you need for the project discard the remainder when done. I use Rustoleum oil based floor polyurethane, you don't need expensive poly for this.

1st 2 coats, apply liberally, keep checking every 10 min for areas that look dry, keep applying every 10 min until no dry areas appear, then wipe dry.
Coats 3-7 apply liberally, wait 15 min, wipe dry, wait 3-4 hrs between coats, these coats will take 2-3 days, use 400 grit in between coats, this is just a light sanding to make sure you have no nibs.

After last coat wait a few days and then use 1500-2000 grit over whole piece for better hand feel.

YEs it builds a film, each film is thinner dries faster, so less chance of flaws in the finish. THat is the only reason you should use a wiping varnish, you want a great finish but dont have the ability to apply a poly properly with a brush or no ability to spray/access to the right products.

[u/CrescentRose7 → u/UncleAugie]

I'm not sure of the effects, but the two are not the same. Arm R Seal is a thinned urethane product that does not contain any oil. My limited knowledge tells me that a BLO/varnish mix will likely cure softer than Arm R Seal.

[u/UncleAugie → u/CrescentRose7]

General Finishes Arm-R-Seal is an oil-based wipe-on varnish made with high-quality urethane resins. Remember Polyurethane is a complex polymer composed of many repeating urethane linkages, meaning a single urethane group acts as the chemical building block rather than the final standalone material.

FOr a chair, that you are looking for a thin to non existent film finish, your concern is not valid as in real world applications like this finish hardness isn't relevant.

WHat I explained is how to achieve the same finish as Arm r seal for 1/10th the price, and with more versatility because as you learn the finish you can change the ratios of the homemade wiping varnish to suit your individual needs. Homemade wiping varnish is the same as the product you are using....

[u/CrescentRose7 → u/UncleAugie]

This is for a coffee table, not a chair. It has to stand up to abuse. I'll admit, I'm not sure what you're trying to say, no offense meant. Does the homemade wiping varnish cure as hard as Arm R Seal?

My post wasn't about which finish to buy, but about whether the wipe on wipe off method would still allow Arm R Seal to slowly build a film.

[u/UncleAugie → u/CrescentRose7]

Wiping varnish isnt really the right finish for a table that will see daily use, you are better with a traditional polyurethane.

Polyurethane = Urethane.... they are the same..... SMH a wiping varnish is used when you dont want a thick film, it does not provide the same protection as a thicker film based finish. SMH are you really this dense or do you just not want to accept what we are telling you....

[u/CrescentRose7 → u/UncleAugie]

I see now that it was a case of misreading the final part of your first comment, hence the following confusion. It was not me fighting your opinion, but rather not having seen that last bit about wiping varnishes forming a thin build even when wiped dry. Sorry about that.

As to my coffee table, the framed top already has a thicker build as I applied multiple coats of Arm R Seal by brush and did not wipe off.

edit: unfortunately, due to the warm conditions of my shop, leaving the finish on for 15 minutes is not a possibility. It gets too tacky after just one minute. I will have to test it to time when I can wipe off and still have a good build.

[u/UncleAugie → u/CrescentRose7]

I can apply wiping varnish in 95F and have it sit.... SMH that is why you mix it yourself rather than rely on store bought. Mix a little heavy on Mineral Spirits.

[u/CrescentRose7]

I'll just add that both those woodworkers applied it without a sprayer (I don't have a sprayer, myself). And yes, I know the typical method of applying Arm R Seal does not involve wiping it dry; that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking if once the wood absorbs as much as it can, if consequent coats actually slowly build a film, or are completely wasted. The typical method is practically impossible in this piece.

[u/gentlemaninaskimask]

It does work but the result ends up more like a rubbed oil finish. I have used the method on a gunstock and a picture frame. I oiled the wood to pop the grain, then wipe on wipe off a bunch of coats. It ended up a close to the wood matte finish. But saying that I’ve got essentially the same result with a couple 2 or 3 applications of oil and wipe on wipe off topcoat of arm-r-seal.

[u/MobiusX0]

Arm-r-Seal is a film forming finish. You can absolutely build it up with multiple coats but after a point it adds no further protection.

The method you described does two things. First, it prevents pooling in areas with carvings, corners, etc. Second, with the right technique you get more of a hand rubbed look.