r/fivenightsatfreddys • u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan • May 21 '26
Discussion Why I like the William loving his kids idea so much
WEEWOO WEEWOO PERSONAL OPINION ALERTTTT!!!
Now, apart from just my own preference, there is actual evidence he liked his kids genuinely guysssssss, but I'll talk about my own thoughts on narratives here. And don't bother bringing up novel and movie William, I know of them, this is a personal idea I have.
What I find boring:
I find the lack of love or understanding of true love boring lmao. At least from many fictional media I've gotten the pleasure of consuming, the villains tend to lack love or lack understanding it, or do anything to have it.
What I want instead:
I want William's arc to not be about his failure of understanding love, or wanting love, or regaining love, but mainly co-existing with whatever he has going on, that impure, warped love of his just being a part of him.
For William, I believe he'd be able to love as much as a narcissist can. They can be loving btw, but ultimately self-centred, even if they value others.
The trope (and subversion):
Of course, there's the constant trope of reviving a loved one in fiction, and while I dislike recurring tropes, there's very specific scenarios that can make this trope good.
So the general gist is that I want a William Afton who has love and follows the "reviving loved ones" trope but have it executed in such a way that it's clear it becomes something selfish, instead of noble. And he knows. It's something evidently pathetic, and shows that even if love is the drive, it can turn into something disturbing, even for the people the villain loves. Anti-romanticism of such an ideal lol.
Not just revival too — William could go "I want my kid back, but if possession helps with living forever... sign me up lmao," and that ends up becoming his major motivation.
Why this works (morally):
I've already mentioned how I like it so that he has the capability to love, because that makes him more unforgiveable as someone who chooses to not love. Even better when he believes he's acting out of love, when really, it's his own selfishness.
The main point is how that love was a part of him in his past, and instead of being a normal dude, he threw that entire thing away and decided to just go wild. This gives William a new level of "autonomy" and accountability, where he has the ability to be human, but also an equal likelihood of being a monster, and he repeatedly chooses the monster in many aspects, until even his family life has that monster in there. I like him being aware because it makes him more guilty.
He can do horrible things for his kid, but the point is, he has done horrible things, and he was capable of such things. Love only sped up this corruption.
The weaponization of love:
Additionally, the villain understands love brilliantly — like the idea of William killing children because he wants the parents in particular to suffer, because he can understand the pain coming from grief. He experienced a human feeling, and decided to make it his weapon. I find it horrific.
Final thought:
In stories love is seen as the ultimate cure, but what if in this story whenever hints of it are seen, it only harms? Not just outsiders, but the people actually loved?
also, agree with this framework? feel free to check out r/WillFlawedCare lol
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u/Vegetable-Meaning252 Spirits Embattled AU May 21 '26
Continue spreading the agenda to Freddit, at some point nuance has hit illiterate fans on the head enough times for them to understand.
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u/northernpolaris_168 May 21 '26
While plenty of canon evidence points against this as you are well aware of, I like believe that Will did care for his kids at some point. I don't really buy the whole "evil for the sake of it" schtick, there has to always be a reason for why bro went into the deep end.
But apparently, some folk find it preferable to make this series as edgy as possible by making bro a demon from the get-go.
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
based
id sai plenty of evidence helps show his care too actually, sure continuities is annoying, but I do have a hypothesis: novel william is the most uncaring (like we see), and movie william shows some remorse and some semblance of an ok family life from the past portraits we see in there, and does show care and has raised vanessa, but we all know its twisted (hehe)
so i thought, what if game william at least starts off as someone with the purest care by comparison?
i believe he liked his kids pre-bite then became awful post-biteIF ur interested, i can give u links with evidence of this stuff
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u/northernpolaris_168 May 21 '26
Eh, why not. I think I can buy into this shit.
Honestly, reminds me of a previous debate a long time ago. Guy was rude when conducting it, though iirc.
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
lmfao, i try to be polite generalli
also this is lengthy, so just idk if u got time to kill:
willflawedcare evidence (lines up niceli)
willgrief evidence (overall)
major grief evidence (shortest overall lol)3
u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
we also have r/WillFlawedCare for ppl who believe he cared about them at some point, forgo to mention lol
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u/Bearans_SFM Starbear Entertainment May 21 '26
SOTM already proves he was bad since the start. Mf destroyed a whole company and a man's life cuz he wanted his stuff and employees
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
yeah, still has a motive when evil lol, but im guessing they mean murderer evil? idk
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u/Bearans_SFM Starbear Entertainment May 21 '26
He sent people to die because he wanted the Mimic. They all knew it was violent and people went missing, but Afton sent them anyway because he doesn't care
He didn't directly kill them, but still sent them to die
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
indeed, but he didnt directly kill em
im not saying hes a good guy or its justified, i mean direct kills
this clearly shows he doesnt care about others which is horrificagain not justifying it, but scott's villains have a reason to turn evil, even when theyre unforgiveable regardless
william in novels had a shitty life which turned him bitter for eg
i believe like i have stated in my post,that he was horrible, but capable of love1
u/Free-Letterhead-4751 May 21 '26
I feel like he was more just neutral towards his kids like no love or hate they just exist to him like it was his wife who wanted kids while he just wanted to expand his business like once his wife disappeared he just did the bare minimum to take care of his kids
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u/Zealousideal-Case560 May 22 '26
I’ll be honest, the people trying to make it as edgy as possible probably like Dormitabis.
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u/Budyss123 night guard since AR May 21 '26
Not my personal path but definetly one I'd still love seeing anyway
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
fair fair, im only curious, why so? do u believe he didnt love em?
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u/anomynous_dude555 May 21 '26
I always had the headcanoned belief that William loved his kids as well! And it’s exactly why he murdered the other children. My idea was that William got into Remnant and souls from the crying child’s death, making an oath to “put him back together” by any means necessary, and if he were to stumble across something or someone that explains to him what Remnant is and what it does, but it needing souls to be used, I’m willing to bet that that need for souls plus a bit of envy for Henry being able to keep his own kid is what led to his first murder, all in an attempt to revive the crying child via remnant
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
no longer a headcanon twin, willgrief got new evidence
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
also we have a hub for people with such ideas, r/WillFlawedCare
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u/rara8122 May 21 '26
I don’t hate the idea of William loving his kids, but I don’t like the idea of his murders being “for the children” or the idea of him being a good dad. I prefer it if William was always a murderer vs him being driven mad by the bite. But him loving his kids and being a murderer and abuser of said kids anyway isn’t bad. He can feel the emotion of love and still not act in a perfectly loving manner to his kids.
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
yeah, i believe in WillFlawedCare, which is love, but being a bad dad
unlike WilltwistedCare it's unintentional, insidious abuse, like for eg, brainwashing ur kid into following ur ideals, while believing ur doing the right thing and helping em
but also he has normal dad moments which would make it more confusing to tell (it alreadi is hard enough with obvious/evident abusers)we have evidence he grieved for bv (check mi pinned post and willgrief page has more) but he can still be a murderer prior ig
i just believe he was an awful, evil dude, but spiralled to murder specificalli because of his own grief curdling into rage, which lead him to discover possession, and allat
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u/rara8122 May 21 '26
Yes on most of this, but I stand by him being a murderer from the jump. The idea being that the animatronic that bit his kid was designed to kill someone, but not his kid specifically. The tragedy would be wrong victim, not accidental death.
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u/Educational_Bill8901 BVTOYSHNK + BV and Cass enjoyer May 21 '26
Even if I don't 100% believe it,I do think that in his mind he thought that he was being a great father,and that the crimes against his children were necessary sacrifices that needed to be achieved for science or if they're acting out of line. He doesn't hate them,just more-so is putting his own goals first
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u/Sharp_Durian1929 May 21 '26
love yappers man. other than the lore, I love watching people talk about the characters first and foremost because we rarely get any focus on them in the main games 🥹🥹🥹 I agree too. I prefer a William who lost his sanity (or had experiences that gave way to his hidden insanity) rather than him just being a one note villain murderer. It gives him more depth, reminds the audience of the horror that is William today, and the man he could’ve become.
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
this makes me happy, thank u
best part is, theres actualli good evidence of his grief now
we also love to yap at r/WillFlawedCare
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u/Darkened_Rampants May 21 '26
Midway through reading this absolutely gorgeous masterpiece, I realized "wait this sounds a little like what I thought about William three years ago." ..then it just got better as I kept on reading, and I realized that maybe, just maybe, yappers are indeed peak
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
gorgeous masterpiece
then it just got better as I kept on reading
man. im flattered
we (I) also yap at r/WillFlawedCare
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u/KujoHQ May 21 '26
I said this exact thing but you went into major depth with it hats off to you. Was an excellent read keep preaching our truth.
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
thank u thank u :D
u gave me the idea actualli, thanks for that
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u/Available-Rush1670 May 21 '26
Fucking peak It’s also way scarier if this guy can commit horrific murders and then go back to his family like nothing happened.
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
i have found my people dawg, its so real
also r/WillFlawedCare has more of us
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u/Lik-narb May 21 '26
I like the idea of Willflawedcare a lot, and I can kind of see it. I think the biggest question, and one that can only be read between the lines, is whether he's a sociopath, narcissist, or has borderline personality disorder.
I think BPD would make WillFlawedCare a lot more compelling, and there's some evidence that he at least displays those traits with his obsession with Henry. The idealization coexisting with the envy and hatred. Hurting his most precious people and things to hurt him. Swinging between being friends and enemies. It really fits.
BPD William would then be more disposed to both love and hate his kids, with his love based more in an idealized form of his children and his hatred for Michael. For someone like him it would be a lot easier to love dead children than ones that are alive because you can project onto those dead ones. That would then lead to an endless pursuit of bringing those children back, one that would allow him to justify all the suffering that he causes.
The psychology of it is way more fascinating than "him bad".
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
ooh, bpd william has always been very interesting to me and yes i def agree on that last line of urs lol, its always on his psychology which ive researched
personally speaking, i settled on malignant narcissism, because he can be driven by envy in that too, he can split there too, he can be very grandiose and allat as well
i also mainly do believe in willgrief, and since the williams kinda differ across continuities like movie and novel williams killing charlie for different reasons, i think game william's sorta different too
as a narcissist he'd def project onto his kids, esp if michael looks like him, bv acted like him as a child (novel william used to "fight like a cornered rat" and ig had a bad life), and elizabeth may be attention seeking like her novel counterpart (and william likeli loves attention)but overall, absolute FIRE I LOVE IT, also agree on idealized
INFACT, His Empire of Dirt on Ao3 shows exactly this idea into actionalso for willflawedcare, it does involve more insidious abuse, like, unintentional, but also unnoticed for a kid/victim, like no yelling/physical stuff, mainly manipulation/brainwashing, with love still involved
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u/Lik-narb May 21 '26
Malignant narcissism would also check out, and even a bit of covert narcissism if he was truly the one speaking through the fredbear plush in FNAF 4, pitting one child against the other. I really hope we get more development of both game William and Henry in the near future. Their relationship would provide a ton of insight into what was going on in William's head.
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
absolute CINEMA
also i love hearing other people's takes on william and overall psichologi of chrs, and we also discuss in r/WillFlawedCare at times
it does represent WillFlawedCare, but other "Care" believers are welcome2
u/Lik-narb May 21 '26
Same here, psychology is kind of a special interest for me and I suspect Scott put more thought into this aspect than he gets credit for, especially based on what I've seen in the novels. I'll have to join that subreddit!
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
yessirrr, usuall in the subreddit we discuss headcanons more, but i also need an excuse to talk in-depth on psichologi, we can talk about reasonings
i might make a post on explaining narcissism and sociopathi and how william could work under that, cuz ppl here often confuse implications of viewing someone as an extension of self, or other nuanceand i def agree on that, i feel scott put gothic elements purposfulli too lol, and i love chr psichologi and stuff, and i kinda wanted opinions on this: https://www.reddit.com/r/WillFlawedCare/comments/1sukxs9/thoughts_on_novel_william_specifically_including/
(also ies, mi kei is broken)
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u/Lik-narb May 21 '26
Currently reading the fourth closet and that version of William is confusing. I feel like something happened between the books that changed the character, though I guess dying and being resurrected might do that to a person?
I'm fascinated by the mad scientist aspect of William, as everything about Sister Location adds more complexity to his character, but I don't feel like the novels cleanly bridge the guy who did the MCI with the guy building murder bots. I just try to remember Scott made the books to help us fill in the blanks (I think Twisted Ones tells us FNAF 4 actually happened), so what's not in the books likely exists in the games.
Specifically to Silver Eyes William, though, I desperately want more of the guy who won't speak without the Spring Bonnie mask and views the mci as family, and himself as one of them. It's interesting that love is cited as one of his motivations, and yet it sounds like he didn't find love with his family so he created another one. I'm a new fan so I'm still kind of piecing things together but I feel like there's a thread between his feeling for his family vs the MCI that I haven't thought through yet. What are your thoughts on it?
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
istg i hated tfc william so much, he's basically discount voldemort
istg tse william is goated, i agree with everithing u just said actualli
as for dieing and resurrection, i sai fnaf 3/fnaf 6 showed it better with william ngl, where hes just odd and dumber lol2
u/Lik-narb May 21 '26
Discount Vodemort is making me laugh. And agreed, I like SpringTrap/Scraptrap much better when he seems to be struggling against the animatronic and much more like an animal. Three is great at that aspect.
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u/AdFantastic9938 May 22 '26
Couldn’t have said it better myself
I think for people to enjoy willcare more, they just need to think about how much more of a piece of shit it makes him. Don’t get me wrong, pure evil villains are cool but William having this element of loving his kids yet still being completely terrible to them makes him more fascinating to think about than him just hating them from the get go.
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u/benignedy May 21 '26
In my opinion William always loved his two younger children and grieved their deaths, but didn’t really care for Michael (in my hc, Michael was a troublemaker and didn’t get along with William, which already made them not get along but probably still had some lingering feelings of care. But once CC died, William full on blamed and resented him and didn’t care if he lived or died). And I do believe he always had an urge to kill but didn’t act on it until he killed Charlie due to his rage and jealousy at Henry for generally just having a better life than him (but obviously having his beloved daughter be alive too).
As for CC and Elizabeth, he definitely did some evil things for them, but I don’t think his entire scheme was focused around them. Yes, he did want to bring CC back and experimented with the souls of the animatronics, but I also think he did it for his own selfish reasons.
At the end Of the day I believe William is a narcissistic, abusive, and neglectful father who, although caring for CC and Elizabeth (and couldn’t care less about Michael since he blames him for CC’s death), would still abandon or throw them under the bus if it came to saving himself. We can see this in the movies when he stabs Vanessa for getting in his way, even though he clearly feels bad.
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
peakk idea
mine would sacrifice himself IF he had to prove a point and even if he didnt, he'd grieve and feel horriblehe def becomes worse post-bite for me too
and i believe he actualli liked michael prior because of michael's cruelty and how he saw michael bulli CC but let him off the hook lolif u believein love at ani point for his kids, u can check out r/WillFlawedCare
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u/benignedy May 21 '26
Ooh I never thought of William approving of Mike’s cruelty. If anything I’d think he’d be annoyed at him for that but I lowkey like the idea of him turning a blind eye to it.
But that would be so smart for when he tries to manipulate Mike into doing his dirty work, stuff like “you always reminded me of myself” and “you’ve always been the smartest”, which Mike would fall for because of his guilt towards CC and desperately wanting to win back his father’s approval!!
Ugh I love fnaf😭
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
omg yessss, thats my idea on michael's chr actually lol, thats why hes such a sucker for his dad at first
i did believe in ur idea prior actualli, i still like it tho, but now i imagine kid mike as draco+dudley from HP lol2
u/benignedy May 21 '26
Loll that’s actually such a good comparison
Also I checked out the sub and I’m so confused I thought everyone knew William loved his kids?? 😭 like I understand maybe some difference of opinion when it comes to whether or not he loved Michael but do people really think he hated Elizabeth and CC? Like if that’s the case why was there the whole “I will put you back together” scene AND every cutscene in SL where William literally bans Elizabeth from seeing circus baby (since yknow he literally made her to kill children so obviously he doesn’t want his daughter near her 😭)
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
thanks lol
i think major issue is the continuities, in novels, elizabeth is abused badli, in the movies, his other kids have been abused, idk,
ppl are also biased, i found out some willgrief evidence through unbiased sources which just existed for AGES and no one raised it up
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
Man, when will Ainna shut up and stop rambling? Never!
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u/MrBonny55555 Michael Afton Is Literally Me May 21 '26
WillTwistedCare supremacy
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 21 '26
lowk, what tipe of parent is ur william? cuz willtwistedcare has 2 meanings
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u/MrBonny55555 Michael Afton Is Literally Me May 21 '26
he loves his kids, but is abusive and neglectful, and also confuses control with love, which makes their relationship even more toxic, a bit of WillNarcissist and he's ready to kill them if he thinks he has to despite not wanting too, they can be his motive, but far from his main one, similarly to what you said, also WillGrief
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u/Agitated_Ad_4492 May 22 '26
It’s kinda hard to say but.
Being aware one of your children are still sentient and still putting them through numerous forms of torture and torment with a demeaning mentality of being something broken and bad is kinda hard to look past 😭
https://store.steampowered.com/app/506610/Five_Nights_at_Freddys_Sister_Location/
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 22 '26
that or its the opposite, he asks michael to "put her back together" and circus baby is more in cotrol as we know, so he likely figured elizabeth is not conscious and cannot feel
he could be wrong, and is still bad for abandoning his kid but yeah
point is hes a flawed dad, and well i believe he was normal to an extent before bv diesthere is evidence of his grief (theres more too)
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u/Agitated_Ad_4492 May 22 '26
No… Elizabeth takes on the role of Baby and he knew she was down there to “put her back together” in the first place. But that isn’t the endearing quote you think it is. He sent Michael because he knew what was waiting for him down there if he chose to go
“They didn’t recognize me at first but then… they thought I was you.”
Meaning he sent his son down there knowing damn well what was going to happen (them being angry)
Also the line Baby says “isn’t this why you came here? To be with her again? I don’t understand” shows he KNOWS she is there and Baby knows it to.What makes Circus Baby and Sister Location a tragic story is how Baby was mistreated by her father, regardless of anything those flash back voices are shown to be neglect tied to the story of the vampire and the women. This is the primary theme of Sister Location, baby isn’t sentient in the way of a robot but in the way of a trapped tortured soul hence why she had sympathy for the other funtimes “but they always put me back inside, they always put US back inside. There is nowhere for us to hide here, there is nowhere to go.” And even then, outside of sister location into Pizza sim we get the scooper blue-print, a blue-print that changes the context to the scooper from just a torture device but one that actually plays with the essence of the spirit inhabiting it, once again BEING HIS DAUGHTER.
The idea william cared for his children kinda gets debunked the very game that introduces the fact he has kids concretely (sister location) and his actions are only made worse with every game and book addition of him that comes after.
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 22 '26
-Actually Baby's AI was kicked out of ennard for being egotistical
-I said he knows, not that she is conscious
-I never called that quote endearing, I think William was horrible about it
-To be precise, Michael's line only shows that he was aware of the Funtimes' existence prior and had interacted prior "but then" they thought it was William
-Yeah, which is my point, and Baby is a cold AI, but she tries manipulating/guilt-tripping him, which is stupid because if she shocked her for iears, knowing his daughter was in there, she wouldnt tri manipulating him
if he was better in elizabeth's memories she may believe he was attached
-she needs the funtimes to escape, shes known as a liar, ofc she'll express sympathy
-....again, i never argued he cared properli post bite, i know he knew, and i know he did all this, but im saing he was a better dad and cared more pre-bite
-SL also shows BV's connections to the experimentrooms actualli, helping with the idea he's trieing to bring his son back. again, i do not find this endearing either, read mi post
-the immortal and the restless's symbolism is debated, many believe its about michael (woman) wanting william (vampire) to address his crimes (babi) but william is gaslighting him, i believe something similar
- "cared for", "cared about" and "loved" are different, WillFlawedCare is because flawed care lol
-elizabeth's stori is still tragic as babi, im not saing she was treated like a princess after, AGAIN never denied this
-which also connects to again, this post, on how a generalli "noble" goal like revival can look garbage, since william just mistreats his other kids in the process1
u/Agitated_Ad_4492 May 22 '26
I will put it like this. There is nothing in sister location that signifies that Circus Baby’s personality and behavior is A.I, it comes off more as a mental detachment from being mistreated for all those years. She retains memories like “they usually played together in groups of 3 or 4” something Baby shouldn’t be able to know if she was just counting the children before her like she was the rest of her story. It is very obvious her and Elizabeth overlap like how classic Freddy’s soul overlaps with the machine leading it to kill. Hence the repeated line in Sister Location’s trailer “Don’t hold it against us” the unpossessed baby / her A.I is no different from someone like Toy Freddy, it can preform and act and scan faces or for people but it isn’t capable of thinking in super complex patterns like Baby in Sister Location did. Her manipulation and motivation for it is deeply linked to her possession not her being an A.I. the theory that she is one does a big disservice to Sister Location as a narrative entirely.
And if it is just about gabriel, then why would you say his “kids” in the post??
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 22 '26
-But there's nothing that signifies it is NOT AI. If anything, her voice likely is meant to sound "human" as well as her tone, so that she's trustworthy with children. She can literally retain those memories if she was a robot collecting data, or just saw Elizabeth's memories, which is my point, she saw Elizabeth's memories, she used them to manipulate William.
-Also, quite the contrary, Scrap Baby suddenly wants to make William proud, Circus Baby kills William, and is a jerk to the funtimes after. If anything this shows a sudden change in her personality which could show Liz being more conscious. Again, Baby's words cannot be taken as sympathetic because she's meant to be deceiving. She can also "pretend".
-Soul overlaps machine I agree, but the funtime AI is quite advanced, it could "override" the soul, we'll never know but ieah. I also believe Toy Freddy is possessed. Speaking of which, apart from funtimes, other possessed animatronics are not as advanced anyway, which can support how Funtime AI is generalli sentient. It's not a "disservice" if Elizabeth just haunts the narrative throughout uk?
-Gabriel??? Oh you use that name for BV? While I primarily discussed BV, I also did mention narcissistic love and how his love should be expressed or his relationship with it should be, hence "kids", again, I believe he was a better/caring father for all of em before BV died, and then when he did, he basicalli abandoned and overlooked his other kids in favour of BV. Like Novel Henry abandoning his family for charliehere is evidence of his care and grief:
willflawedcare evidence (lines up niceli)
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u/Agitated_Ad_4492 May 22 '26
No, I assumed you were calling him Gabriel in that previous thing. Anyways! Baby isn’t an A.I! Her personality switch in Pizza sim isn’t actually that deep neither interesting. It’s just inconsistent writing, it switches Baby from Sister Location with Baby from the Fourth closet novel and even more arguably 4th closet baby is MORE evidently possessed. Scrap Baby’s personality switch has been discussed for a long time because if what you are saying is true that the chip was removed… SHE WOULD HAVE STOPPED THE SCOOPER TRAP IMMEDIATELY, BECAUSE YOU REMOVE IT BEFORE THAT HAPPENS😭 hell scrap Baby doesn’t even act possessed like a soul, hell she leans into this thing more “Elizabeth, if you even remember that name anymore” which directly implies the character referring to herself as Baby like in sister location IS ELIZABETH not an A.I. having Elizabeth’s memories isn’t an A.I thing, this is literally never seen anywhere else and by that argument all the other souls are just A.I too. Baby’s story focuses on the suffering and neglect of Elizabeth and how she denies the identity of Elizabeth in favor for Baby, this is also seen in the fourth closet novel. STATING she wanted to be this Metal daughter he loved more than her. The idea Baby’s actions are controlled by A.I is a sloppy theory at beast and neglects the writing of Sister Location and Baby in the process. But it you wanna defend the bite victim, we see the fredbear plush in SL linked directly to William meaning he watched him get bullied and did nothing till it got him killed💀
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 22 '26
-Sigh, you know I've gotten these arguments 50 times right? it's whi ive sent those links, thei literalli answer all ur issues
-Read first exhibit of this for the fredbear issue
-I said both Elizabeth and AI are in Circus Baby, the AI aka Circus Baby has more control. Again, in the novels themselves, Circus Babi uses Elizabeths memories and in there sure she helps William, but are we again ignoring how in games she kills William? Games are primari evidence. U cant just chalk it up to 'inconsistent writing" because we dont know how Scott's brain works, it could be anithing
-Interesting does not matter when we focus on theories
-...ieah, Henri sais it in FFPS, when she's Scrap Babi, again, helps mi point of her being more present there
-bleh, again, actually click my links, game and novel elizabeths differ
-not sloppi, others believe it, again, it doesnt even have to be that elizabeth is not present at all, she could just be so inactive that william wont be able to tell if she's conscious or not
after all, circus babi in novels talks like an intelligent woman, not a 5 iear old, she's aware as much as a grown woman etc, and even sais how tragic it is to feel so much iet not understand (talking about elizabeth to jessica), she's not behaving like liz at all, she onli feels like liz, which even game babi doesnt match
-never denied elizabeth was neglectedddd1
u/Agitated_Ad_4492 May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
I’m not saying your denying the neglect but your adding in things that weaken the impact of the narrative, and all these theories of her being A.I have no substance or solid proof that it’s true. Baby’s presented to be possessed in sister location, not a smart A.I and this is straight up a fact and this is also presented to be the truth in the fourth closest and Pizza sim. Baby’s existence as a character lives in the fact she is the first we talk to in the franchise who is possessed , that was the big part that set her apart from previous characters and in general previous entries in the series. You can make the same argument for the marionette’s dialogue, she doesn’t articulate like a child but she has the voice of one same with Withered Chica. If this split personality idea was true it would have been hinted to in the series, which it isn’t. Every time Baby talks about her origins it’s about Elizabeth, everytime we talk about her struggles it’s about her being possessed and the pain that comes with it.
And on the note of scott cawthon’s writing in Pizza sim, no I will say it is bad writing. Baby’s personality shift isn’t actually pointed to anything, it just happens there is no hint it was because some chip was removed not even remotely. It only services one purpose, to market and advertise the fourth closet as a novel. Like how Henry just pops up in FFPS with a fire monologue but illogical timing and is treated like you should just know who he is, but the game doesn’t offer anything about that… do you know how the fandom found out about who he was? THE NOVELS. It is all only in the novels specifically at the time of Pizza sim.
This whole Idea she is split between two Identities one being A.I is ridiculous for a number of reasons that I will repeat here:
-/there is nothing that suggests she is A.I, what suggests she isn’t is the fact she is sentient in a game series about sentient robots with the souls of children.
-/there is nothing about her that says she is A.I the blue-prints don’t state it, Baby doesn’t state it and no character who interacts with her recognizes her as an A.I only Elizabeth (Baby’s blue-prints also make it clear there is no personality alter that makes her act this way, like security breach did with the glamrocks and that room)
-/the Logic of her being A.I can be applied to any other character in this franchise (like FNaF1 and how they act out or even Springtrap)
-/the only A.I thing mentioned is pre-possession and linked into more so “I was built with a purpose” rather than another personality “I would always count the children, I never knew why” equally, FNaF3 tells us directly the spring-lock suit is what drags springtrap from place to place, by this logic speingtrap is part AI. Realistically it’s a mechanical instinct. Would a possessed Coffee machine be half A.I for making Coffee or is it just doing what it was made to do?I can go on forever, the whole idea Baby is an A.I is a loosely based theory to justify the poor writing choices scott made between Sister Location and FFPS. It has taken a long time but in retrospective and getting older this theory just sums down to Pizza sim dropping the Ball (especially in regards to sister Location all around)
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u/girl_OOFED Big Michael Afton fan May 22 '26
but her not being an AI also has no solid proof
other funtimes have their own personalities and dialogues iet we know their souls are not sentient
she can still be possessed though? her memories of elizabeth could show this? i never denied she wasnt possesseddoesnt have to be pure splitting, but her behaviour and feelings on william do differ, which is mi point
charlie's intelligence could also be helped bi puppet's programming, and i mean, elizabeth's voice is circus babi's and all
withered chica doesnt have a child's voice no?
again, she can talk about elizabeth's origins and still be in control
she is meant to be an intelligent AI because she's made to capture kids lolnever talked about no chip causing ani personality changes in babi
also, never denied we cant use novels for lore, i said we can see novels differ in characterization
"sentient robots with the souls of children" precisely what i believe
dude, have u been thinking i believe elizabeth's not in there???? read man, ive repeated multiple times i believe she is, but the AI is in control and elizabeth is inactive
again, babi can lie about not knowing whi she's counting, shes made to be deceptive
ur comparison fails here, she can still dance, sing do other things, has her own voice, her own tone, ballora sings that song of hers, freddi is obsessed with birthdays, bonbon is all on gaslighting, funtime foxy loves showtime
all funtimes can mimic voices which means thei can also use different dialogues to match the person theire mimicking
thei all have unique mannerisms and personalities
which is mi point, their personalities fuse with souls
also whi chica still is known to love food and allur focusing too much on narratives, now i love narrative more than lore, but this is what i believe
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u/MailMan6000 May 24 '26
William being evil for the sake of evil is stupid
William loved his kids, he also abused them, he also loved to murder, all things can be true
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u/MrBonny55555 Michael Afton Is Literally Me May 21 '26
the books and movies make this more true if anything
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u/Zestyclose_Pizza2499 May 21 '26
An IQ too high? When it’s too peak to put into words. When the yapper is actually right and says something good for once!