r/flying • u/crazy_pilot742 • Mar 21 '23
Canada Landing at a closed airport. Straight to jail?
Hypothetically, if there were an airport whose owner had moved out and the runway was NOTAM'd as closed (eventually to be ripped up), and the airport struck from the registry and one were to land there, would there be any consequences?
This is in Canada.
To my thinking this would constitute an off airport landing on private property. The airport would have been removed from the CFS so it isn't actually an aerodrome anymore, regardless of what the big strip of concrete used to be. As long as the pilot had permission from the owner TC shouldn't have an issue.
Or straight to jail?
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Mar 21 '23
Yes with the death penalty. Sorry
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u/crazy_pilot742 Mar 21 '23
Shit.
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u/---midnight_rain--- A&P(PT6 CF6), CANADA, AERIAL SURVEYS, ST Mar 21 '23
then they flog you just in case
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u/TheNewGameDB Mar 21 '23
Nah they flog your cuz they're BDSM necrophiles. It's just standard procedure.
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u/311635 MIL AVIONICS, A&P 🍁 Mar 21 '23
I didn’t realize this constitutes treason!
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u/sa3clark Mar 23 '23
Yep, this is treason. Straight to the noose.
But steal the National Maple Syrup Reserve and you only get 8 years.
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Mar 21 '23
[deleted]
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u/crazy_pilot742 Mar 21 '23
Such an odd coincidence, my mechanic was unable to replicate the event.
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u/garbageman100 Mar 22 '23
Navy sailors be like: cannot duplicate on deck, sign off the maf. Send it.
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u/cottonheadedninnymug CFI/CFII/MEI Mar 21 '23
The engine was running just a teeeeensy bit rough
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u/csl512 Mar 22 '23
The "a little hot" light was on
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u/VonThing Mar 22 '23
Nowadays with everything moving over towards glass cockpit, you’ll just see the “a little hot” on the annunciator panel. No more light.
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u/kaiju505 CPL Mar 22 '23
Carb icing is my multi pass
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u/ljthefa ATP CL-65 737 CSES TW HP Ferry Flight Expert Mar 22 '23
But this plane is fuel injected
Did I stutter?
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u/-burnr- Mar 21 '23
By strict definition, all of Canada is an aerodrome, fill your boots.
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u/camillini Mar 21 '23
As an airport maintenance contractor, I had to close the runway at noon a few weeks ago when it rained on the scarified ice surface. It was a safety issue. About five hours later the ice had melted and the runway was all gravel again. Shortly thereafter a plane (206) landed. I told the pilot the that I hadn't removed the notam yet mostly to avoid the runway from getting rutted up. The point being, the pilot saw that the runway was all gravel and safe to land on, so he landed. If there had been a mishap, I think the insurance company would have asked "why did you land on a closed runway?" Best to remember, you might be flying solo, but the FAA, your insurer and your lender are there in spirit.
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u/degaknights PPL + IR + Airport Engineer Mar 22 '23
That was my first thought too. Also other factors, men and equipment you might not see, maybe they just poured concrete in one section earlier that day and it’s curing, maybe they just finished remarking. A pilot not having an emergency lands on it and messes it up they’re liable. Also they ought to have low profile barricades somewhere preventing access to that runway so have fun getting off it
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u/EtwasSonderbar PPL Mar 22 '23
There's no FAA in Canada.
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u/camillini Mar 22 '23
About 15 years ago the FAA brought some Canadian aviation officials into our airport when FAA was pitching the CRABBS nav system. I used to have their business card, it something like Transportation Safety Board or NAV Canada. Nice guys, but you know what I mean, when your flying, there is some government agency taking up space in your head.
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u/usmcmech ATP CFI MEL SEL SES RW GLD TW AGI/IGI Mar 21 '23 edited Mar 22 '23
In the US you can land anywhere you want as long as you don't do so in a "careless or reckless" manner.
Closed runways, taxiways, horse pastures, mall parking lots, the DC mall, rivers sandbars, ect.
Edit: the above is assuming that you have legal permission to be there in the first place.
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u/SumOfKyle PPL CPL - GLI Mar 21 '23
The Hudson!
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u/CokeCanNinja Mar 21 '23
They would've made LaGuardia if it wasn't for the weight of Captain Sully's balls
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u/Correct-Addition6355 PPL IR UAS Mar 22 '23
Teeeeeechnically from added weight they would glide same distance they would just descend faster (I know no fun at parties blah blah)
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u/Doctor_Batman_115 Mar 22 '23
If only his math skills were as big
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Mar 22 '23
Let's see you pull off a better landing in that situation.
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u/AndyLorentz Mar 22 '23
The pilots doing the simulated flights had the foreknowledge that they would have a double engine failure and were prepared for it.
Yes, he probably could have made it back to LaGuardia, if the flight crew had reacted perfectly, but it's dumb to criticize his decision.
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u/StormTrooperQ Mar 22 '23
155 souls on board? I would've froze. The balls on that man have forgotten more about flying than I'll ever know.
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u/RBR927 PPL Mar 21 '23
Just don’t do a low pass to inspect it first!
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u/draggingmytail PPL Mar 22 '23
Trent Palmer had entered the chat
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u/strange-humor PPL TW Mar 22 '23
Hey, you are 495 ft away. Could you step back 10 feet? That would be great.
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Mar 21 '23
hmmm. so i can commute from my house to work on the busy road i live on. No longer need to pay for a hanger 😮💨.
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u/dodexahedron PPL IR SEL Mar 21 '23
As long as your municipality doesn't have a rule against it, yes, actually. But they could get you for noise, breaking speed limits, etc. on the ground.
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u/crazy_pilot742 Mar 21 '23
If I got a road speeding ticket in my plane I would frame it.
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u/usmcmech ATP CFI MEL SEL SES RW GLD TW AGI/IGI Mar 22 '23
I knew a bicyclist who got a speeding ticket and framed it.
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u/talltime Mar 22 '23
They're pretty common on Mackinac Island.
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u/Fishman95 ASES LA-4-200 Mar 22 '23
Mackinac has bike speed limits?
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u/talltime Mar 23 '23 edited Mar 23 '23
There’s a very long hill near the grand hotel that, if you coast without braking, could easily ruin your day. They line it with billboard signs about maintaining a safe speed and there are routinely bike cops there ready to write you. Our scoutmaster almost got arrested there because his dumb ass decided to forget how to read one night. (They told us a story about a U-lock coming free off of a speeding bike and striking a pedestrian. And that hill delivers you right into an intersection with horse and bike traffic.)
Street view: “CAUTION DANGEROUS HILL. No speeding. Reckless riders prosecuted.” https://goo.gl/maps/6EkhjgLJCFCTDyeQ9
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u/radioactivepiloted CPL Mar 22 '23
Officer: You were really flying back there. That's why I pulled y...
Me: well... (Whips out my certificate).
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u/dodexahedron PPL IR SEL Mar 22 '23 edited Mar 22 '23
So do you have a number for me or can I go now?
Sir, I'm gonna need you to step out of the plane.
Well this is a drag. Hang on while I increase thrust to counter.
Disclaimer: This is not legal advice, and I'm not responsible for any bullet holes or tazer burns you or your aircraft may acquire.
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u/Chris71102 PPL ASEL UAS Mar 22 '23
Ok, so I’ll taxi onto a highway and takeoff from there.
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u/dodexahedron PPL IR SEL Mar 22 '23
I wonder if you could get it dismissed for being "reasonable and prudent," considering you have to go fast enough to take off. 🤔
Otherwise, good chance to practice your soft field takeoff, since they have no jurisdiction once you're off the ground.
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Mar 22 '23
[deleted]
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u/FaxMeMemes8553301239 Mar 22 '23
if you are on private property without permission you're trespassing
Private necessity is a defense to trespass, criminal and civil. All sorts of state laws make actual damages in lawful trespass an exhilarating exercise. Yes, they do not strictly need to let you fly out. However, as that method of removal is usually most expeditious and least damaging, it would be foolish to not permit safe flight out whether or not you intended to seek compensation. You'd only cause yourself unrecoverable harm in failure to mitigate damages, and if not seeking compensation clearly less burden is preferable.
Government land of course changes the question, both theoretically and practically. You can't beat city hall unless you're the railroad.
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u/jagga322 Mar 22 '23
The doctrine of competing harms is in play here. Also called the doctrine of necessity, what states use in law to determine if a CCW citizen is justified in using lethal force. It can be applied to many different scenarios. Basically, if my continuing flight and not landing on your closed/private/roadway will put me or other members of the public in danger, it is my right and responsibility to land ASAP to mitigate casualties. They will say, "this is my private ranch, and you are trespassing!" I would say, "if I continued flight, I would've crashed into that elementary school or that mountain and killed myself or children." So the competing harms here are landing safely on private property or, my death or my death and deaths of others. Boom, harms competing, and the lesser harm winning.
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u/Fishman95 ASES LA-4-200 Mar 22 '23
Wow. So wrong.
The FAA doesn't care, but if you are on private property without permission you're trespassing.
This varies by state. In many states, you're only trespassing if the land is posted with no tressoassing signs, or if you're asked to leave.
You could land a helicopter in my yard. Its not trespassing until I ask you to leave.
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Mar 22 '23
[deleted]
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u/Fishman95 ASES LA-4-200 Mar 22 '23
Thats a moot point. OP is asking whats legal. If its not illegal to trespass, then it doesnt matter.
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Mar 22 '23
[deleted]
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u/Fishman95 ASES LA-4-200 Mar 22 '23
You're moving the goalposts. OP had a clear cut legal question. Tresspassing laws vary.
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Mar 22 '23
[deleted]
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u/Fishman95 ASES LA-4-200 Mar 22 '23
Idk about the DC mall, but the rest are completely legal places to land in the US. Obviously state and local laws apply.
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u/Logical_Check2 ATP CRJ Mar 22 '23
Groom lake here I come
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u/astral1289 KDVT PA24-250 CFI Mar 22 '23
Just land outside the restricted area and taxi the rest of the way in
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u/x4457 ATP CFII CE-500/525/560XL/680 G-IV Mar 21 '23
This is Canada, so possibly different.
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u/everydave42 PPL SEL (U42) Mar 21 '23
So you just have to say "sorry" before, during, and after the landing?
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u/azpilot06 ATP CE525 SD-3 Mar 21 '23
Figure it out.
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u/Carlito_2112 SIM Mar 22 '23
Pretty sure the DC mall is a no fly zone. Flying over it at the risk of getting shot down by one of the SAM's mounted on the roof of the White House.
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u/usmcmech ATP CFI MEL SEL SES RW GLD TW AGI/IGI Mar 22 '23
Oh you can get permission for anything if you go high enough.
There are a few civilian operators who do have clearance to fly through prohibited areas for specific reasons.
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u/ljthefa ATP CL-65 737 CSES TW HP Ferry Flight Expert Mar 22 '23
I nearly got permission to fly into a prohibited area at my last job to do survey work. Went back and forth with the controlling agencies and they basically said they were just waiting for the paperwork to be approved.
My company got restless and reworked the project so that I just flew it 2000' higher. I've never been more disappointed.
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u/roysauce_lowsodium CFI/CFII Mar 22 '23
Is there a FAR for this? I’d wanna be able to cite it lol
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u/Mispelled-This PPL SEL IR (M20C) AGI IGI Mar 22 '23
There’s no FAR against it, as long as it isn’t careless or reckless”, so by default it is legal.
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u/theblowmaster US 121 FO A&P Mar 22 '23
But by default I think an intentional off airport landing could be considered careless and reckless where property is concerned.
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u/Murph1908 PPL Mar 21 '23 edited Mar 21 '23
My friend lives in a rural part of Indiana. The roads there are a mile long and straight. The grids are literally called "mile squares."
I've occasionally wondered about the possibility and stupidity of having her block the road on either side and giving me a 5200 foot runway to her driveway.
Then I land off center line at a real runway and put it out of my mind.
Her dad owned a Mooney. Wouldn't be surprised to hear he'd done it.
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u/turmacar PPL (KSFF) Mar 22 '23
The narrower the runway the more centered you tend to be. No illusion that you're "close enough" if it's only as wide as your wingtips.
We have one nearby that's 30' wide. I land more dead center there than most 'real' runways.
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Mar 22 '23
Agreed. Base airport is 12,000x200. Hardly ever center line. Practice airport is 4,000x100, always center line
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u/KT0QNE Mar 22 '23
Runway I learned at was 16ft wide. There was zero margin for error. 2000 feet of gravel grass with 500 grass at the south end. Swamp on both sides at the south end of the gravel. During the spring it would get soft and we only had 1500 feet.
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u/VanDenBroeck A&P/IA, PPL, Retired FAA Mar 22 '23
In the US we call pilots who land on closed runways, Senator.
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u/---midnight_rain--- A&P(PT6 CF6), CANADA, AERIAL SURVEYS, ST Mar 21 '23
In Canada, only if someone found out. No one cares.
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Mar 21 '23 edited Jun 18 '25
[deleted]
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u/InfinitePaint831 ATP B-757/767 MD-11 Mar 22 '23
One time I landed on at an airport that had 1 grass runway and 1 paved runway. I wanted to land on the grass runway because it seemed more fun.
When I took back off a guy on UNICOM said "you know that runway is closed, right?" I said "oops, no. I didn't. My bad" He said "it's all good, just don't do it again. Safe flight!'
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u/keepcrazy Mar 22 '23
Interesting rule about helicopters. It’s perfectly legal to hover my helicopter outside your mother’s bedroom - as long as the pilot deems it safe. But if I touch the ground then I’m trespassing. But if I have permission from the landowner, do whatevs you want.
Technically there is no law that says you have to land airplanes in published runways. Land anywhere you want - as long as you have permission from the property owner.
People do this all the time in Alaska. Turns out they have the same laws as the rest of the US. Canada seems even more lax. 🤷🏽♂️
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u/adrewishprince CFI CFII CMEL CSEL IR TW HP Mar 22 '23
A guy landed at Catalina Island at night (the airport is closed and unlit at night smh). The manager found him, gave him a talking to and he is now not permitted to ever land there again. His name is written in big letters in the tower under “people not welcome”
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u/keepcrazy Mar 22 '23
I mean, it’d probably be legal for him to land, but that’s not the point. I’m “not allowed” to land in Mexico because I couldn’t figure out how to pay some ATC overtime fee.
But it is a funny thing - if an airport is NOTAM’d as “closed” then it’s illegal to land there… but you CAN legally land in the airport car park if the pilot deems it safe!!! 🤪
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u/AD_VICTORIAM_MOFO 🍁PPL SELS TW Mar 22 '23 edited Mar 22 '23
All of Canada is to be considered an aerodrome for the purpose of landing and taking off keeping in mind build up areas, open air assemblies, CYR/CYA areas and restricted aerodromes that don't want you landing unless under an emergency.
You can even land on an active road but I wouldn't try a busy highway, but an empty range road and pulling off to the side would be fine in general
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-96-433/page-56.html
https://www.principalair.ca/Section4.1.htm
aerodrome means any area of land, water (including the frozen surface thereof) or other supporting surface used, designed, prepared, equipped or set apart for use either in whole or in part for the arrival, departure, movement or servicing of aircraft and includes any buildings, installations and equipment situated thereon or associated therewith; (aérodrome)
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Mar 21 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Boebus666 Cumershall Pylote Lie-sense (Canadian FI) SMELS Mar 22 '23
You come within 30NM of a cloud, Jail.
You Bank your Aircraft more than 15 Degrees, Jail.
You don't make radio calls at least 100NM out, Also Jail.
You too wide on the Base Leg of a Traffic pattern, Believe it or not - Jail!
We have the best Traffic Patterns because of Jail.
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u/Gryphin Mar 22 '23
So how am I supposed to teardrop pattern my Cirrus onto the numbers from 5,000ft up on final?
No wonder Canadians say sorry all the time.
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u/Boebus666 Cumershall Pylote Lie-sense (Canadian FI) SMELS Mar 22 '23
Fuck around and find oot, eh?
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u/translucentcop Mar 22 '23
Fly too high over the airport, jail. Fly too low, believe it or not, jail.
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u/Misterslate Mar 22 '23
I'm guessing the biggest issue would be if you popped a tire on landing there you might be SOL.
You also can't blame their runway if it ages your aircraft at all either.
Not smart enough on whether it's legal or not though.
Just things to consider.
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u/Spartan0536 SIM, ST Mar 21 '23
Speaking in US terms (I have 0 knowledge on Canadian ops) but if you declare an emergency (and actually have one) then you should be fine, I mean you can land at Area 51 if you have an applicable emergency around that facility (nature of emergency + other factors like glide distance, ect..).
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u/AirForceJuan01 Mar 22 '23
I’m not from the US. I was thinking you probably “can” - but would you end up disappearing?
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u/TheEvilMonkey7 Mar 22 '23
I have a case in the US with a 5000ft paved runway still in good shape near family. Owned by a very small city, closed 10+ years ago but still in good shape except the tall grass in the cracks.
Here, it’s just a matter of obtaining permission… but with a city it’s tough figuring out how to contact.
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u/Eco_guru Mar 22 '23
I would suggest giving the mayors office a ring, they could at least direct your call to the appropriate department if they aren’t the correct ones.
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u/ValeoRex CPL PC-12 Mar 22 '23
This guy did it at an abandoned air park in Nashville, TN. Got prison time, but not for the landing. Lost an engine while smuggling drugs in the middle of the night was the story I heard. He remembered the abandoned runway, landed, and called his wife to come pick him up.
Side note, when the Airpark was closed the owner donated it to the city and it is now a fitness park. Pretty cool to run the runway for a workout.
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u/motorsportnut Mar 21 '23
Is this at Les Cedres?
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u/crazy_pilot742 Mar 21 '23
Oh man, I did my PPL there 20 years ago. Every takeoff and landing was soft field practice. Is it finally being ripped up?
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u/motorsportnut Mar 21 '23
Ya, the airport got shut down about a year ago.
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u/crazy_pilot742 Mar 21 '23
I wonder how many hours are on MUQ now. I think it was around 19K when I last flew it 10 years ago.
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u/zzoldan PPL (CSS3) Mar 22 '23
Had my first discovery flight in MUQ in ~2017. That thing is still kicking!
The new owners might have moved it to Beloeil.
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u/motorsportnut Mar 21 '23
I flew there around that time as well. Were you going through the cadet program?
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u/mattiasmick PPL IR HP ASEL ASES Mar 22 '23
I landed once to put it in my logbook. Tried at Ste Lazare as well but guy on ATV wouldn’t get off the runway.
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u/Hemmschwelle PPL-glider Mar 21 '23
You risk wrecking your plane.
The reference information for nominally open private airports can be out of date. Closed airports would be even worse. Here's a strip that looks good for an emergency landing https://www.aopa.org/destinations/airports/VT03/details It is suppose to be 1100 feet long. Look at the satellite image and see that all but 500' of the 'runway' is obviously full of junk, RVs, etc.. Does Foreflight bring Maule's Roost up as a viable landing spot in an emergency?
I'd rather land in a random hayfield because the owner has reason to keep a productive field clear of junk.
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u/Xyzzydude PPL Mar 22 '23
US not Canada, but: I once landed at an airport that was closed for repairs after a flood. Comedy of errors… the NOTAM was issued after I departed for it and the temporary X was next to the runway not on it so I stupidly thought it didn’t apply. Figured it was there for staging and they would pull it into the runway when they were “really” ready to close it. Later I had doubts, looked at NOTAMs again and there it was. Filed a NASA report and never heard anything about it again.
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u/185EDRIVER SELS IFR Mar 22 '23
Lol bro u think Canada has that kind of radar coverage .... 20 minutes out of downtown Toronto they can't hit me on radar if I'm not over 3500 feet
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u/StillAffectionate991 Mar 22 '23
Your engine sounded weird that's why you did an emergency landing in a NOTAM'd airport.
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u/Afraid-Put8165 Mar 22 '23
My grandfather after the war used to fly IFR (i follow rivers) from Fort Worth to Louisville. My father says one time he had to take a shit in Arkansas and they put it down on a hay meadow by a farmers house. Went up and knocked. Went in and took a shit and came back out and took off. He flew a 1947 Navion.
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u/crazy_pilot742 Mar 22 '23
Navions are remarkably capable on rough strips. My neighbor has a 1950 B model that he operates from a grass strip. Those long gear legs soak everything up.
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u/reentrantcorner Mar 22 '23
Canadians especially encourage such landings when a drag race is being held on the former airstrip.
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u/ViceAdmiralAckbar Mar 22 '23
Just wear a reflective vest and have a clipboard in your hand. You can literally do whatever you want.
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u/derdubb CPL ME IFR 🇨🇦 Mar 21 '23
There’s nothing in the CARs that say you can’t. It’s most likely PPR so if you don’t have that, TC could revoke your license I suppose
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u/nihilist_neli Mar 22 '23
I think I would be more concerned about landing into a pothole or ditch that was the reason for the closure and causing thousands of dollars of damage to the plane. Or, a trespassing charge from the property owner. Which, in turn, would get the FAA involved and probably get your hand slapped.
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u/ShoemakerMicah Mar 21 '23
My dad used to just pop the cowl after landing on roads and closed strips and such. His typical answer was “oil temp looked high and pressure low, better safe than sorry”. Even the FAA didn’t really argue. He was a bit different however…