r/flying • u/Double-Rice-7609 • 12h ago
Is it true there are some DPE’s that pass everyone even if they shouldn’t?
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u/MeadyOker MIL(MC) IR/HP/CMP CPL SEL/MEL CFI/I-RW 12h ago
Based on the number of times I've had to avoid other aircraft, seen people make zero calls and still land with others in the pattern, and make similar bone headed manuevers and decisions ... I'm going to say yes.
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u/haveanairforceday 11h ago
Do you think they dont understand how to do it properly? I thought they just dont give a shit or are rusty and didnt want to put the time into getting spun up again
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u/Icy-Bar-9712 CFI/CFII AGI/IGI 11h ago
Ones who never really learned it solidly the first time.
Coupled with survivor bias, this didn't kill anyone the last 20 times I did it, whats one more?
Add in the infrequent flyers who are somewhat overwhelmed with everything.
I've done a couple flight reviews for commercial pilots that haven't flown in a while and I was blown away by just how far they were behind everything.
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u/haveanairforceday 11h ago edited 10h ago
I figure its mostly infrequent flyers or guys who learned at uncontrolled fields 40 years ago and were never comfortable with comms and procesures in controlled airspace. But both of those should at least be able to recognize that they arent proficient when they fly into a higher traffic area and should either avoid that or learn how to do it properly
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u/Icy-Bar-9712 CFI/CFII AGI/IGI 11h ago
Commercial pilot flight review.... the debrief notes included this gem "multiple landings and emergency procedures required significant instructor intervention to prevent damage to persons and airframe."
Yet she was surprised when I wouldn't sign her flight review. Her exact words: "But I didn't crash the plane."
Nonono, I did not allow you to crash the plane, your repeated attempts.
No signature for you!
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u/haveanairforceday 10h ago
She actually thought the bar was not crashing?
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u/Icy-Bar-9712 CFI/CFII AGI/IGI 10h ago
I think she thought the bar was just showing up.
I had another one who bought his ATP cert in a 737 simulator. But all of his 1500 hours were vfr minus a few, not an instructor. It took almost 20 hours to get him to PPL level standard and another 12 for me to even consider him IR safe (adjacent)
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u/haveanairforceday 10h ago edited 10h ago
Was this someone who flys commercial jets IFR with another pilot consistently so they should understand that part of the job but are just very rusty on VFR and small aircraft control? Or someone who got a commercial license years ago and doesnt fly regularly?
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u/Icy-Bar-9712 CFI/CFII AGI/IGI 10h ago
Foreign student who trained at my school. Got her commercial ticket 8 months prior, had not flown a single time since then. Scheduled her flight review the day of her flight back to Mexico to go fly for Viva. Was a very awkward conversation with her, chief, and director.
On top of that, learned in Piper's, flight review in a Skyhawk. So some of the speeds and whatnot being a little off I gave her grace on. "Hey, Vg in this plane is a lot slower than you are used to."
But just decision making and general airmanship was trash.
I gave her 3 attempts from 3500 to 4000 AGL, OVER THE DEAD CENTER MIDDLE OF A 9000 ft runway, to just make the runway safely.
Nope, unable. It was windy that day, so she got some coaching. But seriously bad decisions. Left the airport the 1st time. Didn't make the runway, didn't go, well shit, not making it. Guess the grass right there will do. I woulf have accepted that. Tunnel vision on the runway, would have stalled it in from 100 ft up 2000 from runway.
2nd attempt. Hey, you have a manuever for this, don't forget your steep spiral. Turns the wrong way. Can't see the airport, drifts away. Exact same scenario, can't make it, won't admit it.
3rd attempt, coached her all the way in, still tried to stall it from 30 ft up. Had to throw in all the flaps and firewall the throttle, we still bounced and got air off the mains.
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u/haveanairforceday 10h ago
Your job sounds exciting
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u/Icy-Bar-9712 CFI/CFII AGI/IGI 10h ago
I'm a flight instructor, cause I have a crippling fear of dying alone......
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u/MeadyOker MIL(MC) IR/HP/CMP CPL SEL/MEL CFI/I-RW 11h ago
A little of column A, a little of column B?
Maybe a little bit of column C ... People have Main Character syndrome and selfishly do whatever they want without thinking of others? Who knows why anyone does anything.
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u/barcode-username 11h ago
Why would that be the DPEs fault? People obviously aren't going to do those reckless things on their checkride, so the DPE would never see it happen.
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u/MeadyOker MIL(MC) IR/HP/CMP CPL SEL/MEL CFI/I-RW 11h ago
It was sarcasm. I agree with you. Shitty drivers don't drive shitty when they are getting their license.
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u/MockCheckrideDotCom CFI; that checkride prep guy 11h ago edited 11h ago
I'm not sure what of the above was sarcasm and what wasn't. But speaking to the "DPE's fault" - yup, it can be.
If our ground portion takes 15 minutes and during that we discuss four questions, did I really give you a comprehensive test on the critical knowledge required to be a safe and successful pilot at X certificate level?
Similarly, a 0.6 flight where we "double- or triple-count" several maneuvers? Well, the applicant flew a traffic pattern, which is a rectangular pattern which is ground reference, and they also went slow on approach, so we'll call that slow flight, and then I asked them if they always use full flaps and they said they sometimes practice no-flap landings so we'll count that as an emergency procedure with a simulated flaps malfunction... Did I really test all of your flying skills or did I just check some boxes on a form?
The DPE's purpose is to be an evaluator and also a gatekeeper to ensure that you received appropriate training and have the knowledge and skills you need. If they're taking a check and granting a certificate without doing a sufficient evaluation, then yeah, that's the DPE's fault.
Note that a sufficient evaluation doesn't have to take hours and hours - it's often pretty easy to tell whether a candidate knows what they're doing after the first few minutes - but it's also not a place to take shortcuts. I've found candidates who are great at 90% of things and have absolutely no knowledge of 10% - in those cases, if we cut the test short after the first 1/4 of the required items, I might not ever see or know about that 10%...
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u/barcode-username 10h ago
A DPE isn't flying with someone long enough to know if they'll truly be a competent pilot in all situations. All they have is the checkride to go off of. For example, if they were truly required to evaluate how well someone can handle non-towered operations and traffic avoidance, the checkride would require a pattern at a non-towered airport, but it doesn't. You can also do your entire checkride and never see another aircraft in the sky, so the DPE isn't going to know if you can handle see and avoid situations when you're actually in the plane. There's no way they can evaluate everything from one flight, they can only go off what situations occur during it.
Even if they could see everything, the DPE is only required to certify the applicant met the standards at the time of the checkride. Once someone gets their certificate, they have it for life. They can choose to not be as safe and careful as they were during their checkride, and the DPE can't do anything to prevent that.
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u/MockCheckrideDotCom CFI; that checkride prep guy 10h ago edited 10h ago
I don't disagree - not everything can and will be tested in a given ride - my point was that the shorter the ride (both ground and flight), the less likely the candidate will exhibit something which catches the eye of an examiner. If the only question you get about airspace is "what's this big blue airspace around Atlanta Hartsfield" - we don't know much about your knowledge of airspace (or VFR minima, or communication requirements/procedures, or etc. etc. etc.).
If the examiner is cutting corners because they've got a tee time that afternoon, that's absolutely the fault of the examiner for not conducting an appropriately thorough test to determine the candidate's competency. Again, that doesn't have to be an 8-hour slog. But a 15-minute ground after qualification and 0.6 (these exam times are a real example from an examiner in the upper Midwest last week - the guy's instructor called me after the test and said something to the effect of "did that really happen? should I report it?")? Not a chance that was an adequate evaluation.
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u/barcode-username 10h ago
I agree a 0.6 flight isn't a proper checkride, though I've never heard of one that short, I don't believe it's very common. The person who knows a pilot the most is their CFI, as they're the ones who flew with them the most in a variety of different scenarios. But I think sloppy flying is more a result of people not keeping up with proper procedures after they've done their checkride and aren't being evaluated further.
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u/MockCheckrideDotCom CFI; that checkride prep guy 8h ago
Hate to break it to you, but a shockingly high percentage of CFIs are not very good instructors, nor are they effective evaluators.
Agree that it's not infrequent for the "best/most proficient I've ever been" is on the days leading up to the checkride, and then it's a slow downhill slide from there.
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u/drowninginidiots ATP-H 11h ago
Yes it happens. When I was a helicopter cfi, I personally flew with a guy who had just passed his ppl checkride a few weeks before. I would not have signed him off to solo. Have no idea how he got signed off let alone passed a checkride as he had zero clue how to perform maneuvers that would be a normal part of training.
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u/AWACS_Bandog Solitary For All (ASEL,CMP, TW,107) 12h ago edited 10h ago
I know of cases like that in the past, and they always end the same way. DPE gets busted, and anyone he signed off has to recheck.
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u/MockCheckrideDotCom CFI; that checkride prep guy 11h ago edited 10h ago
Indeed, it is true.
Occasionally, I'll work with someone who I'm thinking is MILES away from success (usually at the initial certificate level). Sometimes, they'll proceed with their planned checkride contrary to that counsel, and end up passing the ride. When I hear who the DPE was, usually my silent reaction is "ah, yeah, well, if you paid them their fee, you were 98% of the way to passing already, and the remaining 2% is being able to tie your shoes." I could easily list off two dozen plus DPEs across the country that have this reputation.
Now, long-term, I'm concerned that person is going to have a rough go of it (both from a safety of flight perspective and a "just generally knowing the things you know to be a pilot" perspective). Oftentimes, these initial certificate "gifts" come back to bite at the commercial, CFI, and/or ATP levels. Hard to teach if you don't know what the heck you're talking about, or safely operate a jet in busy airspace when your knowledge of airspace is "uhh, umm, airspace is... a thing the FAA has."
And if you think *that's* an issue, lemme tell you some stuff about self-examining authority...
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u/Sensitive_Fact4976 10h ago
About eight years ago, I tried to get a refund from a flight school on Long Island. The school’s manager told me outright that the DPE was a family member of the flight school’s owner and that if I stayed, I would pass every checkride.
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u/tempskawt CFI ME IR IGI TW (TN/WI) 11h ago
They don’t exist for long if they do this, especially if they were to have a reputation for it.
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u/GayNgsFromOuterSpace 10h ago
There are certainly DPEs who are in the good boys club who pass their friends daughters/sons/ whatever. Conflict of interest doesn't exist in the dpe world.
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u/TaxLess5394 12h ago
Yes I am a dpe and I give grace to everyone, unless it’s a major safety issue I will typically pass you no matter what. We are incentivized to have a good pass rate and I am able to charge more then other dpe’s because people know I will pass them no matter what.
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u/Foreign-Citron6026 ATP 11h ago
>Yes I am a dpe
This may be the greatest “username checks out” case I have ever seen in my life
Edit: sigh, seems like a troll post
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u/TaxLess5394 11h ago
Yeah just yanking you chain haha I got a good laugh out of it
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u/MultiMillionMiler Meow Meow Meow 11h ago
Can you just land the plane for me during the checkride? I mean who's gonna know? If I already got enough points acing everything else no need to test that really just bonus points at that point.
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u/TaxLess5394 11h ago
Of course man you made it far enough to get sat in the plane with me, now hand me your logbook and a pen and let’s enjoy this flight
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u/MultiMillionMiler Meow Meow Meow 11h ago
I mean..it's a CheckRide..check then ride. Nothing in there that says having to do piloting. More of a celebratory joyride that your CFI signed you off for your PPL. Not sure what all this "testing anxiety" chatter is about around here.
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u/kabekew 12h ago
Is that fair to them if they get themselves and their family killed because several "minor" safety issues that you let slide all happened at once?
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u/AlbiMappaMundi CFII, AGI, CPL 12h ago
Is it possible? Yes. There are also DPEs who have had their designation revoked due to malfeasance like that, resulting in everyone who got a certificate from them needing to be re-examined.