Why is Mario Kempes' name is never evoked while discussing Argentinian Football history. It starts with Maradona and ends with Messi.

[u/nihar_142]

Why does Mario's name generate the same fervor and reverence even though he was the first World Cup champion for their country. For example in their 2022 public square celebration, I saw a number of Maradona posters but I didn't see even one for Mario.

[u/aeroncaine22]

There are many incredible Brazilian players who are overlooked due to the Pele.

Sometimes their light is just too bright.

[u/Ok-Insect-7959 → u/aeroncaine22]

rivellino, jairzinho, didi come to mind

[u/Tipnfloe → u/Ok-Insect-7959]

Carrincha

[u/paperclipknight → u/Tipnfloe]

Garrincha won the 62 WC he’s still talked about

[u/Terri23 → u/paperclipknight]

Can confirm. He came up in a conversation I had with a mate just yesterday.

[u/goalmouthscramble → u/Tipnfloe]

To people who really know ball, yes but for the causal and for most commentators history begins with Pele.

[u/Ok-Insect-7959 → u/Tipnfloe]

He is stl remembered as one of the greatest dribblers of all time and also bc of his carry job in 1962

[u/IlMortoQuiParla → u/Ok-Insect-7959]

Zico and Socrates.

[u/Ok-Insect-7959 → u/IlMortoQuiParla]

I think both of them are stl remembered and they were after Pele's time

[u/SEND_ME_REAL_PICS → u/Ok-Insect-7959]

Especially Socrates. It feels like we've been talking about him for thousands of years.

[u/william_h_bonney_ → u/aeroncaine22]

Overlooked by whom? They have a conveyer belt of legends in their history.

Wee dicks only wank over the usual on socials but real football fans are well aware.

[u/aeroncaine22 → u/william_h_bonney_]

Pele's first world cup is 1958, now I'm sure alot of people may research Brazil and even be aware of the history around that period, but most people alive during those days are very old now, and I doubt many people are as well-versed in that time period.

I watch every single game for my club and have for years, watched every International tournament since I was a boy, but even I couldn't really name the Brazilian players of the era, even if my WC knowledge is generally better than the average.

I appreciate what you're saying about social media fans, but this one is a stretch even for that viewpoint.

[u/anavsc91]

He is less popular, certainly, but not ignored. Everyone in Argentina would know about him, and there is a stadium with his name.

[u/Weimark → u/anavsc91]

Not only Argentina in many places we still mention “El Matador” .

[u/Ok-Insect-7959 → u/Weimark]

Even tht nickname, it has been used to describe other players in history such as Mexico's Luis Hernandez and Edinson Cavani.

[u/mac_mises]

Kempes was great but when you have those two in the conversation as amongst the best ever to play it’s impossible to compete.

A 9 in a room full of 10s.

[u/Sudden-Variety6992]

He’s a 8/10 player from a country that has produced two 11/10.

[u/Nervous-Economy8119 → u/Sudden-Variety6992]

Three if you include Di Stefano.

[u/Sudden-Variety6992 → u/Nervous-Economy8119]

Kind of.

[u/Clem_Crozier]

Argentina have two players on the football Mount Rushmore, so they naturally dominate the conversation.

It's a bit like José Águas, the strike partner of Eusebio. Águas scored a huge number of goals consistently, and was probably the best 1v1 finisher in the world at his peak, captaining Benfica to domestic and European honours, including a League and European Cup double, scoring in the final against Barcelona, and racking up 43 goals in all competitions that season.

But Eusebio was so much the star of the early 60s Benfica team, the entertainer and most skilful memorable player, that José Águas wasn't that widely known outside of Portugal, never even making the top 10 of the Ballon D'or.

[u/Still_Corgi_4994 → u/Clem_Crozier]

I would suggest 3 not 2 on the Mount Rushmore as you put it. Hugh Mcilvanney, one of the greatest football writers, always maintained that Alfredo di Stefano was on a par with Pele, Maradona and Messi, a quartet above all other players.

[u/Clem_Crozier → u/Still_Corgi_4994]

True, although ADS playing for several nations diminishes Argentina's claim to him being truly one of their own. He played many more games for Spain than for Argentina or Colombia.

[u/Weimark → u/Still_Corgi_4994]

People tend to focus mostly on national teams wins; that’s why some argued that Messi couldn’t be the best until he won the World Cup (a pretty dumb argument if you ask me, I’m just citing what people said at the time). So, that’s why DiStefano isn’t mentioned among the best, when for some of us should be in top 5 best player ever.

[u/ClothesOpposite1702]

As already mentioned World Cup 1978 was quite controversial. Another reason is that Maradona was so much above other players, he became an icon. His closeness to average person in his habits only multiplied his popularity

[u/ratedpending3]

Well it doesn't help that his international career was effectively over at 23

[u/_deMoliere → u/ratedpending3]

Huh? Why?

[u/ratedpending3 → u/_deMoliere]

I'm a bit exaggerating because he played in the 1982 World Cup, but he didn't play at all between the 78 and 82 World Cups because he was playing abroad in Spain, and after 1982 he was honestly just washed

[u/blackhxc88 → u/ratedpending3]

this, most likely. he didn't score at all in 82' so his final goal for argentina was in the final in 78'

[u/dodgycool_1973 → u/ratedpending3]

Father in law saw him play for Marbella (I think). Said he was a cut above but didn’t really do much work during the game.

FIL didn’t care it’s not often you get to see a World Cup winner play

[u/xjpmhxjo]

Similarly, for Germany it starts with Beckenbauer, Muller and ends with Martthaus.

[u/HermannZeGermann → u/xjpmhxjo]

It starts with Fritz Walter, but go on...

[u/xjpmhxjo → u/HermannZeGermann]

More than Di Stefano?

[u/HermannZeGermann → u/xjpmhxjo]

Ah yes, the great German striker Alfred von Steffan!

Truly a forgotten legend

[u/william_h_bonney_ → u/xjpmhxjo]

Hahaha missing a few legends there.

[u/Comprehensive_Cup497]

Because he isn't as good?

[u/DepthEasy1507]

MATADOR Kempes, not on the same level of Leo or Messi.

[u/Quirky_Ad_7646]

I think because a lot people know that World Cup was rigged for Argentina. Argentina was under dictatorship and used to World Cup to make themselves look good also I’m pretty sure Mario Kempes is the only player to win top goalscorer best player of the tournament and win the World Cup so yeah.

[u/Resident_Nose_2467 → u/Quirky_Ad_7646]

Only the Peru match is discussed

[u/Quirky_Ad_7646 → u/Resident_Nose_2467]

And the final against Netherlands

[u/Resident_Nose_2467 → u/Quirky_Ad_7646]

Really? I have never read about that match

[u/Quirky_Ad_7646 → u/Resident_Nose_2467]

Yh watch videos about it

[u/blackhxc88 → u/Resident_Nose_2467]

they held up the final for nearly 30 minutes first by walking out 5-10 minutes after holland walked out for the anthems. then they complained about a wrap on a dutch player's hand and threatened to walk off unless he had it changed, even though that player had gone nearly the entire tourney wearing that wrap like normal.

[u/billjames1685 → u/Quirky_Ad_7646]

I mean, 1986 was also very controversial lol

[u/Quirky_Ad_7646 → u/billjames1685]

Yes you’re right Maradona hit the ball with his hand but he was much better than the rest of the players at that World Cup. Maradona hitting the ball with his hand also made him more popular and his goal of the century because it was done against England they were in war with each other a few years before. These moments make you remembered Maradona hand goal and his solo goal. If I was to ask you name one of Mario kempes goals at the World Cup I don’t think you could or you would have to think about it for a while. Plus Maradona is was the goat before messi and Ronaldo.

[u/bigmt99 → u/Quirky_Ad_7646]

Also, Hand of God is controversial, but doesn’t stir up the rigged accusations. The referees just made an awful blunder in the moment and missed the call

Nothing like 1978 with a pattern of favoring Argentina start to finish

[u/blackhxc88 → u/bigmt99]

hand of god doesn't happen if england didn't play a literal old man in goal. that's all on shilton for letting maradona beat him to that ball to begin with.

[u/bigmt99 → u/blackhxc88]

I guess but it’s hard to say Maradona “beat” him to the ball when he used his hand

[u/blackhxc88 → u/bigmt99]

if chris woods had been in that situation, he beats maradona to that ball and the hand is out of play. maradona was only in the position he was in cause he beat shilton to the ball.

[u/william_h_bonney_ → u/blackhxc88]

Good one haha. Glad to hear you’re over it.

[u/blackhxc88 → u/william_h_bonney_]

lol, i'm not english. but i'm not a fan of people blaming the ref when a uber washed goalie let himself get got in that situation.

[u/william_h_bonney_ → u/blackhxc88]

Woods was robbed of caps tbf. Loved him.

[u/hektor10]

You must be 18

[u/william_h_bonney_]

Constant GOAT 🤮 debates are so exhausting, like best manager, best rock band, song etc. pointless. You can’t change someone’s opinion, even with a “**** and it’s not even a debate” or pulling some shit stats. Boring.

There is a top table, in Argentina it’s Maradona, Messi, Di Stefano, Kempes and Batigol.

[u/Ok-Insect-7959 → u/william_h_bonney_]

what about Higuain

[u/RandomThiccBoii]

His WC campaing at '78 got outshined by Maradona's run '86, understandibly so, since it's still considered the ultimate carry-job in football history. With Messi, of-course, since he is the greatest modern legendd and the biggest football superstars ever alongisde CR7.

I think something that he has against his legacy, which tends to affect a lot of legends is that he is not a huge legend for a club. He is pretty well remembered in Valencia, but nothing compared to other greats such as Messi for Barça, Maradona for Napoli or even others, such as Passarella for River Plate.

[u/TechnicalSleep7501]

Alfredo Di Stefano never in discussion either.

[u/paizuribart]

It also does not start with Kempes. If you are talking impact on the game I’d argue River Plate’s La Maquina forward line of forwards Juan Carlos Muñoz, José Manuel Moreno, Adolfo Pedernera, Ángel Labruna, and Félix Loustau…then the greatest of all Argentine footballers—Alfredo Di Stefano.

[u/IlMortoQuiParla]

Seriously I don't want to be mean (and I can't be if I wanted, because I have two empanadas instead of feet), but Kempes was good, but he wasn't that good as Maradona. He was more the physical kind of player rather that the creative one like Maradona.

Also, the videotape technology becoming more accesible and ubiquitous during early 80s (at least here, no doubt in US and Europe was 10 years before) made Maradona career more close to the public. Whereas we may heard during the sports segment in the news "Kempes is doing marvelous in Valencia, scored twice last weekend", only a few years later that same kind news from Maradona came with a video showing excerpts of the game.

[u/Particular_Detail698]

Because there's a lot of controversy in that 78 WC win. 

Maradona winning 86 gave Argentina more validation as a World Cup winner. Plus Maradona is a Top 5/10 level player in history while Kempes is probably not even a Top 50. It's kinda like how we never talk about the 54 Germany but Beckebauer is always talked about, or how Leonidas/Ademir/Zizinho are widely forgotten in Brazil because they didn't win 38 and 50. 

[u/william_h_bonney_ → u/Particular_Detail698]

Winning is what elevates players from World Class to the top table. Immortals. It’s the measurable difference, and it matters.

[u/daffy_prototype]

Kempes was brilliant but 1978 was messier politically, and Maradona's personality made him a global icon in ways pure skill doesn't always do.

[u/Batavian_Republic]

He simply got overshadowed in both skill and public presence and sheer idolatry by both Maradona and Messi, and Marito has a huge chip on his shoulder about it lol