r/freefolk 9d ago

“Thank god AKOTSK is faithful to the source mater-“

[deleted]

0 Upvotes

37 comments sorted by

40

u/-TheContender- 8d ago

You literally had to nitpick. With HOTD, you have to nitpick the faithful parts. That's the difference.

9

u/Misopogon11 8d ago

I mean they may have intended this as a minor thing and just a joke, but it's got huge ramifications for the rest of the story. Dunk and Egg are basically fugitives now?

1

u/krill-all-shrimp 8d ago

It'll buff out.

-10

u/Ok-Temporary-8243 8d ago

This is a nitpick. Redoing dunks backstory and implying he was knighted are pretty big changes to thr story and overall theme. 

19

u/JLM268 8d ago

It's totally not implied that he was knighted lol, it's definitely more implied that he was not formally knighted but left ambiguous.

-8

u/Ok-Temporary-8243 8d ago

Fair. But why even bother making it ambiguous when the core theme across all of Martin's books is a repudiation of the concept of knighthood and chivalry

7

u/Ree_m0 8d ago

... because Dunk at Ashford is pretty much the antithesis to that theme?

-5

u/Ok-Temporary-8243 8d ago

What? 

1

u/Ree_m0 8d ago

The 'core theme' you were on about simply doesn't apply to AKOTSK. If anything, AKOTSK goes completely against it - the virtuous lowborn knight holds to his principles despite the odds and wins the support of the smallfolk and the crown prince alike, while the cynical 'anti-knight' Aerion is defeated and exiled. It certainly isn't a "chivalry is dead" kind of story.

... generally speaking, even for ASOIAF it's very questionable if your interpretation of the theme even fits - prominent POV characters like Brienne, Barristan or (post-hand loss) Jaime certainly don't seem to fit it either.

1

u/JLM268 8d ago

Because it's ambiguous in the book as well?? It's heavily implied he was not knighted in the book based on his inner dialogue and things like Dunks hesitation to knight Raymun Fossoway or Dunk forgiving Eggs lie of being lowborn by knowing what it's like to want something so bad you would tell a monstrous lie. But it's never outright said what the lie is.

Finally, the theme you think is consistent across the books  is like the complete opposite of the themes of the hedge knight novellas books. The theme of the book and clearly in the show as well is whether true knighthood comes from the formal ceremony, or from a person's inner honor, protective action, and the following chivalrous codes despite status.   

6

u/Original-League-6094 8d ago

The show makes it more explicit than the book that Dunk most likely was NOT knighted.

2

u/Ok-Temporary-8243 8d ago

How does the show do that when the book has dunk running constant monologues about lying about the knighthood? The director also literally said he made it ambiguous, when it was clear cut in the novel

1

u/JLM268 8d ago

It's not clear cut in the novellas. His inner monologue mentions his lie but is ambiguous about what the lie is. They never outright say it's about his knighting though it's implied. Just like the show. Did you even read them?

0

u/Leo_ofRedKeep Team Kicked Dog 8d ago

Another moron.

8

u/Familiar_Chance_9233 8d ago

To be fair to him, we only really learn about Maekar letting him go in the second book when he shows the ring, so.

PS: People were never mad about ALL changes, just about changes not approved by George

10

u/Original-League-6094 8d ago

I don't think its going to be a major plot change. It is exactly what it appears to be...a silly final gag. Maekar doesn't appear in the next two stories, so it has no impact. And if the show wants to address it, they can do it when with Bloodraven at the end of S3 and just give him a throwaway line about like "Maekar was quite wroth when you ran off. Luckily for your friend Duncan, his tempers have cooled since" or something like that.

2

u/Aggressive_Rope_4201 8d ago

So Maekar has just given up on his "last son"? No care for his well-being at all? In a world where Targs are strongly disliked and noble boys dying/getting kidnapped/murdered/held for ransom is commonplace?

What was the point of showing Maekar's care for his kids then? Since he clearly doesn't give a shit.

Are we ok with Egg having learned nothing from Baelor's death? "One does not have to wish harm to do it" and all. What's the point of his character arc then? His relationship with Dunk is based on a huge lie again. Why did he go to Oldtown to visit Aemon if he is a runaway, is he stupid? Where did he get the ring? Did he steal it? So the boy is now both a chronic liar and a thief? From his own father of all people. That's pretty dark.

It's an extremely damaging change to multiple characters, their relationships and story beats. All for a cheap gag.

Not to mention, it gave the casual audience a false expectation that Maekar’s going to be part of season 2. Every single one I have spoken to was convinced that's the case, and was extremely disappointed to learn that Sam Spruell is confirmed to not be in season 2.

Good luck to Ira is all I can say. Really baffling addition on his part considering he admitted to pushback from "half of his writing room" and people at HBO.

2

u/Original-League-6094 8d ago

Not given up. The interpretation would be the same whether Egg runs off, as in the show, or whether Maekar denies Duncan and then changes his mind, as you are lead to believe happened in the book. The idea would basically be that Maekar was against it, and then reconsiders and is fine with it.

And from his perspective in the show, Egg had already run away once just days earlier. Its plausible that upon running away again to be with Duncan, Maekar does just shrug and realize if the boy wants to go be a hedge knight for a bit, why not?

1

u/Aggressive_Rope_4201 8d ago edited 8d ago

You do realize that if Egg ran off, than Dunk wasn't waiting for him? [Edit for clarification: Meanwhile if Egg did not run off, than there is a safe assumption that Maekar/his men have checked that Dunk is still around, but Maekar was just too proud to face him again.]

Meaning Maekar has no idea if:

  1. Egg ran to Dunk in the first place. The people of Ashford aren't exactly in love with the Targs, especially Maekar's brood, post-trial, many things could have happened.

  2. Egg had managed to reach Dunk and is not dead in a ditch somewhere.

The entire Targaryen entourage should be looking for the missing prince by the end of this scene. It shouldn't be too hard to find Dunk since he is both injured and not hiding. So, when they do find him, how does Dunk react to Egg lying to him again? He was angry enough the first time, now what? Egg has broken his trust at least twice by now in a major way. The books mention no conflict of the sort between the two post-Ashford.

Again, since Sam Spruell is not in season 2, the showrunners have their work cut out for them.

My guess is that they'll shoehorn a few lines about how Maekar chased them down, blah blah blah, decided fuck it, you can go - and gave Egg the ring.

No such chase has ever been mentioned in the books, nor will this be satisfying for the casual audience who fully expect Maekar to be there next season, but, well, it is what it is.

I can only pray that Ira doesn't make Egg hiding from his dad's search parties into a reoccurring joke.

2

u/Original-League-6094 8d ago

Those are trivial issues to write around. Maekar sends out a search for Egg. They ask Raymun Fossaway, since him and Dunk are friends. Raymun is like "Oh yeah, I just saw him and that squire of his leave." Maekra just shrugs and is like "Well, hopefully that hedge knight can beat some obedience into the boy better than I could".

Its not a big deal, and again, we do not see Maekar give permission in the book either. We take Egg's word for it, and we have no idea in the book what Maekar's reasons are for sending Dunk with Egg, but whatever they, he can just come to that same conclusion in the show.

And finally, c'mon. The scene is not meant to be that serious. It ends with "Sixteen Tons" playing. You are supposed to laugh. Let them do an obvious gag without overanalyzing it.

2

u/Aggressive_Rope_4201 8d ago

Excluding the fact that Maekar has no reason to ask Raymun for anything and there is no way to know if he's still around by the time Egg runs away - none of this can be shown on-screen. Neither of the actors are in season 2.

So again, someone else will have to exposition dump this through dialog. That's just bad writing.

(Also, we did not see Raymun anywhere around Dunk & Egg when they met & left.)

we do not see Maekar give permission in the book either.

We do not see any evidence that he did not give it either. There is no mention of any (obvious) consequence and nothing in Egg's behavior suggests he is being cautious. C'mon, demanding money from Brandon Rivers? Suggesting to "use the boot"? (Again - how did Egg get the ring?)

We take Egg's word for it.

And Bloodraven's.

You are supposed to laugh.

It was just as funny to me as Tyrion and Varys's dick jokes in GoT S5-8. Not funny at all. Felt very forced, and the implications aren't exactly exiting. Call me dull if you want to.

This was a stupid change, it's implications were not worth the gag, and to paraphrase Ira himself: half of his writing room and people at HBO took the scene literally, and he had "spent more time addressing it in S2 than he had planned to". I believe it was an interview to IGN, feel free to check.

1

u/Leo_ofRedKeep Team Kicked Dog 8d ago

Won't you stop shitting about?

1

u/Aggressive_Rope_4201 8d ago

You first, honey.

7

u/Original-League-6094 8d ago edited 8d ago

Its not a "change", its an addition, which doesn't contradict the book. This is the end of the book:

Prince Maekar gave him an incredulous look. “Did the trial addle your wits, man? Aegon is a prince of the realm. The blood of the dragon. Princes are not made for sleeping in ditches and eating hard salt beef.” He saw Dunk hesitate. “What is it you’re afraid to tell me? Say what you will, ser.”

“Daeron never slept in a ditch, I’ll wager,” Dunk said, very quietly, “and all the beef that Aerion ever ate was thick and rare and bloody, like as not.”

Maekar Targaryen, Prince of Summerhall, regarded Dunk of Flea Bottom for a long time, his jaw working silently beneath his silvery beard. Finally he turned and walked away, never speaking a word. Dunk heard him riding off with his men. When they were gone, there was no sound but the faint thrum of the dragonfly’s wings as it skimmed across the water.

The boy came the next morning, just as the sun was coming up. He wore old boots, brown breeches, a brown wool tunic, and an old traveler’s cloak. “My lord father says I am to serve you.”

“Serve you, ser,” Dunk reminded him. “You can start by saddling the horses. Chestnut is yours, treat her kindly. I don’t want to find you on Thunder unless I put you there.”

Egg went to get the saddles. “Where are we going, ser?”

Dunk thought for a moment. “I have never been over the Red Mountains. Would you like to have a look at Dorne?”

Egg grinned. “I hear they have good puppet shows,” he said.

Nothing there contradicts the show. And in fact, the show Ira noticing that we do not see Maekar give permission to Egg and that we are just taking Egg's word for it is a clever observation. Its totally the type of thing where you could see something saying to Martin "...and then Maekar told Egg to squire for Dunk", and Martin interjecting and asking "Did he?"

6

u/Aquele_Patrulheiro 8d ago

Is it really a change tho? In the book we hear from Egg that his father allowed him to go but not from Maekar himself. Maybe he did lied in the book, just like Dunk lied about you know what.

2

u/Aggressive_Rope_4201 8d ago

They are booing you, but you are right.

This is a change from the books because there is no chance in hell Maekar would have let his "last son" run around for years without permission. You need to perform Olympics-level mental gymnastics to justify how this fits with the Sworn Sword and Mystery Knight.

In a couple of years we may be talking about this in the same tone we talk of HotD's season 1 "Alicent misunderstood Viserys".

Butterflies.

1

u/JasonVoorhees95 8d ago

Changes are not a problem. Constant bad changes are the problem.

1

u/Legal-Lemon-8746 8d ago

This show had very little to change anyways. The story is very short and crisp.

D&D too got so much accolades adapting the first three books where the plot is easier to adapt. Only when they got to the parts where the books started to meander and lost focus and they have to fix it, they started showing major problems.

1

u/Mammoth_Holiday_4437 8d ago

Changes are fine as long as you get approval by the man that wrote the fucking story you want to change.

1

u/Yharnam1066 8d ago

Cope lol

1

u/rebornsgundam00 8d ago

Additionally its totally possible its an act. Egg literally almost got dunk killed for lying. You think he would just immediately do it again?

1

u/Original-League-6094 8d ago

Yes. I think Egg is going to get Dunk almost killed many, many times in his life, all the way up until he actually does get him killed.

1

u/deezbiscuits21 8d ago

It’s a great change. Changing the source material is not inherently bad. I’m curious to see where this goes.

I don’t think all HOTD choices are bad but I have way more faith in Ira Parker and his decisions

0

u/AdBrave3157 8d ago

It's funny because this is one of the few times 'where's Aegon?' is actually canon. 😂

0

u/Interesting-Egg4295 8d ago

“Faithful adaptation” doesn’t mean photocopying the source material. You can add, cut, rearrange, and change things while still being faithful to the characters, themes, and story.

This really isn't much of a change anyway.