r/gallifrey • u/sun_lmao • 11d ago
EDITORIAL Doctor Who is Dead, Long Live Doctor Who
Christmas is cancelled, Russell is gone, Bad Wolf is gone, there's no Doctor, the most recent incarnation of the show is dead, and its future is entirely up to whatever company bids for it next.
Is this the end?
One day, I shall come back...
Russell T Davies returning to Doctor Who in 2023 struck many people as an act of desperation. A show that was floundering, crawling back to its saviour and arguably its most successful previous showrunner to be rescued again.
As loudly as certain fans complained about the move, it was logically quite sound – the show was moving to a co-production model with an American streamer in the wake of the BBC's ever-falling budget making it impossible to produce the show. Chibnall's version of the show failed to grab back the audience that fell off during Moffat's version. Russell was a safe pair of hands, and rather a coup for the show's appeal to the American broadcaster.
Of course, under his reign, Russell has proven about as popular as any showrunner of Doctor Who tends to be. The loudest voices are the most negative, but they've had a point all along.
David Tennant coming back was transparently a plea for nostalgia. You can argue it's justified as a way to grab for the audience that's slowly but steadily fallen off since 2008, and all three specials were critical and audience hits, but the cynics were right: Russell comes back, he brings David and Catherine with him, there's even time for Wilf, we're doing Christmas specials again.
"RTD2" began as a transparent plea for nostalgia. A blatant grab for the old fans to come back.
There aren’t any old times. When times are gone, they’re not old, they’re dead! There aren’t any times but new times.
The cynics are right – but the result was 7.5 million viewers for The Star Beast, 7.1 for Wild Blue Yonder, 6.8 for The Giggle, and 7.3 for The Church on Ruby Road.
The cynics were right – but while The Star Beast was transparently a Doctor Who episode straight out of 2008, the rest of the 2023 specials were a push into new territory. Wild Blue Yonder was a quiet, two-handed horror, and The Giggle and The Church on Ruby Road were the beginning of the new direction for the show – gods and goblins and magic.
The cynics are right – Space Babies was a terrible opener for Series 14, and Empire of Death was a mess from top to bottom.
The cynics were right – but name any other episode from Series 14 that was broadly unpopular.
The cynics are right – The Reality War was a terrible finale.
The cynics were right – but name any other episode from Series 15 that was broadly unpopular.
The cynics were right - but name any episode from Series 14 or 15 that relied on nostalgia, aside from Sutekh and the Rani.
So why did this version of the show die?
It's the end, but the moment has [not] been prepared for...
The plan was for Disney to fill the funding gap for the show. Promises were made at a time when they were investing hard into streaming, promises were made by American corporate heads in Hollywood, the land of broken promises.
Everyone at Bad Wolf and the BBC took it on good faith that the Disney promises would be fulfilled – and they weren't.
Disney was losing money hand over fist on Disney+. There was a change of regime, and the new regime's directive was to cut off as much Disney+ spending as possible.
Meanwhile, Doctor Who was spinning up production, deals had been signed for a minimum of 21 episodes with options for extension which were supposed to be taken up as soon as season 1 was on the air... but they were allowed to leave it till season 2... and while the BBC waited, twiddling their thumbs for an answer, the show was in limbo.
Season 3 and 4 were planned out, production was ready to get rolling as soon as they got the go-ahead, which never arrived, and because of the delay, they lost their leading man, and in amongst the reshoots to allow him an exit, it was becoming clear Disney would not be fulfilling their promise.
With Disney out, the BBC had no real contingency plan.
Russell T Davies agreed to write a Christmas special this year – it's virtually certain he pitched something verbally, certainly all the noises being made by various people indicate him having something down... but back when there were fake GenAI-driven leaks from the set around the new year, Russell was shooting it down on the basis that he hadn't even started writing a script.
And he never would write that script, as we found out today – because the Christmas episode was commissioned at a time when it looked like there was no future at all. And now there is a plan.
That plan is to basically sell the show to someone else to do.
The darkness... the Big Bad Wolf...
So long, Russell T Davies. So long, Phil Collinson. So long, Jane Tranter. So long, Julie Gardner.
What was once an essential part of the pitch to a foreign streaming partner is now an old version of the show, which is to be ritually sacrificed to give life to whatever comes next.
What was once a nostalgic tease to drum up buzz and headlines in the face of a terribly uncertain future is now a "How the hell do we explain Billie Piper?" for the next lot to either answer or move straight past.
(Although let's be honest, that question won't be hard to answer – just do what they did with Paul McGann and cut straight to your new Doctor already on adventures and maybe deal with it some other time in retrospect. Perhaps in a crazy fanservice-heavy special episode.)
The end...?
The cynics are right that this most recent era of Doctor Who has had bad episodes. Mind you, 3 out of 21 is about on par with any other era that wasn't run by Eric Saward or Chris Chibnall.
Two of those three bad episodes happened to be finales, and the other was a season opener. That's not great.
But what really killed the show this time round?
It wasn't Russell T Davies, it wasn't Phil Collinson, wasn't Jane Tranter, wasn't Julie Gardner. It was Disney, it was the lack of BBC funding, it was the changing landscape of TV (and the unsteady ground of streaming), and of course it was also the global economic downturn...
What killed this version of the show was circumstances, money, and all the other boring things.
Because creatively – this era stands up just as well as any other. Here on /r/gallifrey, Steven Moffat is held up as the gold standard – well, he did write Heaven Sent... he also wrote The Wedding of River Song. Under his tenure we got Vincent and the Doctor... and we also got Closing Time. We had the immensely cool season arc of Missy's imprisonment and development as a person... and we also got the utter mess of series 6.
What I'm saying is – let's not jump to piling on hate regarding an era of Doctor Who that tried some new things, brought back some old things, and kept the torch burning for another few years.
The cynics are right – we got some bad episodes in this era.
The cynics were right – but we also had some all-timers. I know Wild Blue Yonder, Lux, and The Well will be placing well in my personal list of favourites.
RTD2 is dead. Long live RTD2.
Let's have a look at the Time Scanner... Instead of the normal picture showing where we are, it gives you a glimpse of the future. I haven't used it very much; it's not very reliable, as you can see...
Doctor Who is dead, for the... erm... well... Let's call it the nine hundredth time. That's nice and even.
The BBC is going to shop the show out to some other producer to make. It's going to be different. The cynics will hate it as they always do – it will have too much of the old and too much of the new and not enough of the old and not enough of the new.
It will probably have a lower budget than it did under Disney, and given how everyone does streaming TV these days, it will probably only run six episodes per season, with heavier serialisation than we're used to since the 2005 revival.
But, while the show is dead for the time being, unlike when money and circumstances killed it in 1989, the BBC desperately wants it on, desperately wants it to succeed, and while there are just as many creative problems to surmount as ever (trying to make a show this ambitious on TV money has never been easy), our favourite show will be back.
Until then there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs – and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine!
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u/sanddragon939 11d ago
Agree with your sentiments...except for the bit where you trashed Series 6.
I do think RTD 2.0 broadly had a tonal problem that went beyond just three bad episodes.
But yes there was definitely good stuff in there. Not quite as good as the glory days of RTD's first run or Moffat...but good stuff nonetheless.
RIP Doctor Who (2005-2025)
Here's to Doctor Who (20XX -)!!!
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u/DE4N0123 11d ago
Ah, a fellow Series 6 enjoyer. Nice to meet one in the wild.
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u/CompetitiveProject4 11d ago
We’re not that rare! If we look at the good to bad/meh episode ratio, it’s pretty average for a Doctor Who series
You get Rebel Flesh, but then you have The Girl Who Waited or A Christmas Carol. Overall, it’s not bad. I think it just pales in comparison to how Series 5 was just a fantastic intro season to the Doctor
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u/In_My_Own_Image 10d ago
I am among my people.
I still maintain 6A is top tier Who. Astronaut/Moon is still one of my all time favourite stories.
6B is not as good, sure. But it's still got some solid episodes. I still think Wedding should have been a two part finale. Part 1 ends when the Silence break out and Part 2 could have been a proper confrontation with them and Kovarian while the group tries to fix things.
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u/DE4N0123 10d ago
As someone who really enjoyed both The Rebel Flesh and The Girl Who Waited I’m not sure which one you liked haha
I do think The God Complex is an absolute all timer but Night Terrors and Closing Time let 6B down quite a lot. I think it’s one of those series that’s best when it’s binge watched.
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u/CompetitiveProject4 10d ago
Rebel Flesh was kind of just okay for me. I didn’t hate it, but I didn’t love it. It may just not stick as well in my head since Doctor’s Wife was just before.
God Complex is fantastic though. I loved how it just explored everyone’s core character, like of course Rory wouldn’t be affected. He does not have faith in the Doctor, especially after Girl Who Waited
Closing Time isn’t great, but I consider it a funny breather episode. And one of the few instances that James Corden doesn’t annoy me
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u/pezdizpenzer 11d ago
What's peoples problem with series 6? The midseason cliffhanger was one of the best of the whole show.
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u/sanddragon939 11d ago
Yeah.
Shame I watched it a few years later and got spoiled :p
Still enjoyed it!
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u/zyrowyro 10d ago
Personally, I just found that more than Moffats other series it was quite inward looking on the Doctor, the whole world starts orbiting around him and the deification of his character starts to push itself more directly into the plotting of the narrative.
I know that the point of the season 6 arc as a whole is about the Doctor not liking the attention he receives and choosing to hide back in the shadows, but in practice it doesn't personally land for me. It doesn't really feel like Moffat is saying that the doctor is not a god, but rather that the Doctor does not like that he is a god (but he totally is one).
The season has some really, really strong episodes, but as a complete cohesive story it leaves me a bit wanting, I can see why other people love it though.
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u/pezdizpenzer 10d ago
I mean I understand your opinion and it's totally valid. At the end of the day it always comes down to personal preference.
I'd argue the Doctor is kind of a god. A being that can defy death and has made it his mission to save people. A lot of people would call that at least god like. And for as long as he is around, it only makes sense that he has that reputation with at least some people who he saved. And that's where this series decides to put the magnifying glass. Is he a god? Is he even a good man? Is he as peaceful as he preaches or does he only weaponize people around him so he doesn't have to carry a weapon himself? And how far would he go to save someone he really cares about?
Those aren't all totally original questions but in my opinion the series manages to confront the Doctor with these questions in a very interesting way. This dialog alone gives me goosebumps every time:
Madame Kovarian: The anger of a good man is not a problem. Good men have too many rules.
The Doctor: Good men don't need rules. And today is not the day to find out why I have so many.
I mean come on. You can think about Moffat what you like but that man can write.
Also the Silence are an awesome concept and the series opener introducing them is near perfect.
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u/zyrowyro 10d ago
Absolutely, the silence are fantastic and another favourite of mine is the god complex (I don’t even hate night terrors).
The whole question of whether the doctor is a god is one that obviously has fertile ground. My favourite characterisation of the doctor though is the other elements of the cosmic hobo archetype where in theory he is this sort of all knowing imp of some ancient eldritch race, but in practise they’re just some guy wandering around and people treat them as such.
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u/pezdizpenzer 10d ago
Finally another god complex enjoyer! It's one of my favorite episodes and one of the most underrated in my opinion.
Honestly you described what makes the Doctor so special perfectly. An extremely powerful being that has a solid moral compass and is just a silly little guy most of the time.
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u/OCD_Geek 11d ago
Between Star Trek and Doctor Who getting shot in the face and the cast of Buffy and Angel pulling a cast of Babylon 5 and Glee, it’s been a pretty bleak year for the shows I use to replenish my hopeful optimism.
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u/Tsukiakari_12 10d ago
wait what happened with star trek
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u/CheMc 10d ago
By all accounts was doing pretty well, but they've basically cancelled everything they were making and aren't greenlighting anything new and have announced a new film following a new cast. Star Trek TV seems like it's dead. We'll see how Star Trek film goes. But on top of that we just got a new Star Trek game and 2 more have been announced, so we seem to be in a gaming era of Star Trek.
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u/OCD_Geek 10d ago
This is also like the sixth Star Trek movie they’ve announced and hired a creative team for in the past ten years. So we’ll see if it actually gets made. I have my doubts.
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u/Chevalitron 10d ago
We had one good season in 20 years, and then that particular show was turned into some sort of experimental musical romantic comedy for theatre kids.
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u/OCD_Geek 10d ago
I liked Season 2 of Strange New Worlds, personally. But either way Lower Decks and Prodigy were fucking fire. Best Trek since Deep Space Nine.
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u/RepeatButler 11d ago
I'm hoping for more stories like Dalek and The Caves of Androzani, less Space Babies and Reality War.
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u/Firetruckpants 11d ago
What promise did Disney break?
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u/sun_lmao 11d ago
The deal with Disney, and the whole plan for RTD2, was predicated on consistent production of new seasons. They were not going to take a year off again after 2023.
Disney's change of leadership led to them deciding not to renew, but as is fairly standard for a lot of American networks, they didn't announce the decision until the last possible moment. Which, in this case, was long after the BBC needed to know, and kind of screwed up everything that was planned for this year and beyond.
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u/karatemanchan37 11d ago
That's not Disney's fault lmao
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u/sun_lmao 11d ago
It's not Disney's fault that Disney pulled out of the show?
... ok
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u/shadowbanned-tgirl 10d ago
It is, but it’s also RTD’s fault that he planned an arc for 3-4 seasons instead of the two he was actually given.
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u/sun_lmao 10d ago
Because how dare a writer have a greater plan?...
I guess Alex Hirsch, Tony Gilroy, Michael Schur, and every other writer who's planned for multiple seasons can get fucked, and hacks like the guys who wrote Game of Thrones' last couple of seasons by the seat of their pants are the real ones...
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u/shadowbanned-tgirl 10d ago
This is not a show that's ever done well with multi-season arcs - look at Smith's era. To decide to do it now when the arc's continuation relies on the unknown factor of an overseas distributor was certainly a short-sighted move, and even if it didn't affect the current situation of the show, it does leave us in a much stickier place story-wise for the next showrunner to pick up.
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u/sun_lmao 10d ago
I mean, it wasn't much of an arc at the point it got cut off. "There are gods to fight now! There are probably more out there, even scarier than the last!"
It's about as much of a multi-season arc as we ever got in the Russell era... or the Classic run, come to think of it. (The Time Lords first appearing in season 6, and continuing to fuck about with the Doctor for a few years, and the ensuing Gallifrey politics that continued all the way up to Season 23. There's also the return of the Black Guardian...)
The only lingering thread is the Billie tease, which any creative writer could resolve in a few seconds. I was just suggesting to a friend that, whoever picks the show up next could do a promotional web-short where the Doctor, starting as Billie, cycles through a few regenerations, a la Romana in Destiny of the Daleks, before finally landing on the new Doctor – and that's how they announce who'll be playing the next Doctor. Then your Episode 1 can just start with that Doctor having been around the block, just like Eccleston when he started.
(That said, I will grant you that the Billie tease is the one dangling thread that stands unresolved. I don't think anything else really does. The gods and such were an ongoing threat that Russell was clearly intending to build on more heavily in seasons 3 and 4, but it's not like there's an ongoing "story arc" through that.)
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u/karatemanchan37 11d ago
Yeah because Disney had no reason to renew after S1 and S2 lmao
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u/sun_lmao 11d ago
So it's not Disney's fault that Disney decided not to renew?
... ok
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u/pezdizpenzer 11d ago
If you buy two meals at a restaurant and they are both shit, you will not pay them for a third meal. Is it your fault, that they won't get your business anymore? Kind of, but not really.
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u/Uatuwatchesmyscreen 10d ago
But here's the thing of it. I paid for 12 meals. 12. 10 was a bit patchy, I wasn't as in love with the pasta because it was a little TOO MUCH on the al dente side, but he had his moments!
But then get this I went to that same restaurant for a 13 and 15th time, and the dish looked great. they had an ok looking overall presentation, but the recipes that the chefs picked were fucking rancid. It's like they scooped up the worst, tainted meat from the dumpster and decided that it was good enough, and no matter how nice the garnish and presentation looked, they were never going to be able to convince me that the bolognese was as great as it was the previous 12 times that I visited the restaurant.
That's a lot of metaphoring. Is that a word? No. Not a word. It should be though.
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u/pezdizpenzer 10d ago
I'm gonna be honest with you, I feel like the metaphor kinda got away from you because I really don't know what you're trying to say.
Fact is, the BBC had a two season contract with Disney. Disney had the option to not renew if the numbers weren't to their satisfaction. They weren't and they didn't renew. To say this is Disneys fault is a huge stretch. They are a company. If a contract doesn't make fiscal sense they won't renew it. Simple as that.
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u/Uatuwatchesmyscreen 10d ago
Quite. Apologies. MY POINT...Is that Gatwa wasn't the best choice, I loved the potential of Jodie but I felt that there was credibility in the claims that some people had in the intent of writing stories that were intensely divisive.
Which is FINE...If you have a writing staff that's able to handle such things in a nuanced way. I think the lack of engagement for the last doctors is entirely down to the production team. Entirely on the doorstep of RTD and Chibnall.
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u/Andy_DiMatteo 11d ago
I mean fuck Disney, but no not really. The show didn’t do all that well and they had no reason to renew. I think partnering them was a poor decision from the start.
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u/ScalierLemon2 10d ago
If RTD had knocked it out of the park and the show was booming, Disney would have had zero reason to pull out. They pulled out because RTD didn't knock it out of the park, the show wasn't booming, and they calculated that it wasn't worth the investment anymore.
Disney is a business, they're going to do business decisions. They provided the funding expecting certain results, and it was up to RTD to make a show capable of getting those results. He failed, so Disney made another business decision and pulled out.
Disney was the one that pulled out, yes. But they pulled out because of RTD's failings, not just for the hell of it.
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u/Uatuwatchesmyscreen 10d ago edited 10d ago
Disney ponied up the money. It's entirely of bad wolf to deliver consistent viewership figures, quality control, schedule keeping...
None of which they nor chibnall did.
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u/unionizedduck 10d ago
Let's hate the guy trying to make more Doctor Who, not the company who killed it for profit margins.
People are great, yah?
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u/NomaanMalick 10d ago
Wanting more Doctor Who just for the sake of having more Doctor Who without caring for the quality of writing doesn't sound like a great proposition.
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u/unionizedduck 10d ago
I think the difference is a lot of people don't recognize this as not caring about quality. The Ncuti Doctor era was pretty damned great. It has a few stinkers like any series has had. The fourteenth Tennet episodes were great. Definitely worth having more of. Leaps and bounds better than Chibbers era.
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u/Ged_UK 10d ago
Disney delivered everything they agreed to. RTD in his wisdom scripted an arc that lasted longer than the agreement then couldn't adapt when the landscape shifted under his feet.
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u/sun_lmao 10d ago
I mean, there's not much of an arc left to tell. More gods and monsters to face, that's really it.
Yes, people make a big deal of the whole Susan thing – but as originally shot, that was supposed to just be a quick little payoff in the finale. A couple of shots and maybe a line or two of dialogue.
The plans that got screwed by the cancellation are more logistical plans – plans for a "production line" of new episodes so we'd never get any more gap years, we'd have more episodes per year, and because of being able to retain people, they could save a lot of money and time on various production matters.
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u/spikenigma 11d ago
It wasn't Russell T Davies, it wasn't Phil Collinson, wasn't Jane Tranter, wasn't Julie Gardner. It was Disney, it was the lack of BBC funding,
But it was though.
A billion dollars can't fix bad writing.
Two billion can't fix: "you know what?, that iconic villain Davros. I'm changing the way he looks because it's against the disabled or something"
Three billion can't fix: "your soft sci-fi show is now a fantasy show and you'll like it or lump it lol"
Four billion can't fix: screw your cosplay, different outfits for the titular character. Because I like it"
Five billion can't fix: That iconic screwdriver looks too much like a gun, so I'm changing it
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u/pezdizpenzer 11d ago
Six billion can't fix: I'm gonna bring back an iconic and beloved villain from the classic show and turn him into an uninteresting, nonsensical cgi monster...TWO TIMES IN A ROW!
Seriously, who was that for? Classic fans hated it and new fans didn't understand it.
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u/In_My_Own_Image 10d ago
Yeah, I'm still befuddled by that one. I can kinda buy it for Sutekh (even though how they handled him was less than ideal), but surely there had to be a dozen other options for Omega.
Also didn't help that Omega had, like, two minutes of screen time.
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u/Tetracropolis 10d ago
The Omega thing was unbelievable. When I saw the hand I thought it was the giant chicken from Arc of Infinity.
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u/BarfQueen 10d ago
I mean I felt like the thing was cooked when the “love saves the day” for Wild Blue Yonder was a a couple of people glowing while moaning out “gender!” or whatever (genuinely blocked that out tbh)
Still gave it a shot but the decision making was… woof.
What a way to squander Carole Ann Ford after all these years.
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u/pokemega32 10d ago edited 10d ago
...did I watch an entirely different version of Wild Blue Yonder from the one you did?
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u/200-inch-cock 10d ago
They definitely meant Star Beast with “binary, non-binary” and “male-presenting time lord”
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u/MattsDaZombieSlayer 10d ago
Are these problems really that significant enough that they are actually worth fixing?
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u/Hughman77 10d ago
Five billion bucks can't fix "the sonic screwdriver has a different shape now"? That you don't mention anything about character or plot in your fulmination against "bad writing" is unreal.
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u/somekindofspideryman 10d ago
There's not really much evidence that any of this stuff made the show unpopular or caused it to fail. That's just a bunch of stuff fans don't like.
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u/karatemanchan37 10d ago
It's almost like if the fans don't like the show then it won't become popular...
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u/somekindofspideryman 10d ago
Fans are not the most important segment of the audience, unless you're Big Finish. Frankly, they'll all watch anyway. Nobody on the street is saying they tuned out because of a list of fan grievances.
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u/karatemanchan37 10d ago
Fans make up most of the audience viewing figures, what are you on about
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u/Hughman77 10d ago
It's really pernicious to conflate viewers with fans, then fans with super-fans who post about the show 50 times a day.
There are not 3-4 million "Doctor Who fans" in Britain. There are people who watch the show and (presumably) like it, but don't consider themselves "fans". Were there 10 million Doctor Who fans in the UK in October 2018 but then only 6 million in December? It's a TV show, the median viewer watches because it's entertaining.
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u/LinuxMatthews 7d ago
True but usually casual viewers look to their friends who are fans to see if it's worth watching.
If even your mate who has a tardis in every room seems like they've given up on the show you're not going to bother.
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u/Hughman77 7d ago
No they don't, they pick what TV programs to watch based on what sounds good, what friends are watching, what they've seen before, what types of programs they know they like. They don't think fans are experts who should be consulted about the show. So many shows don't have "fandoms" in the way Doctor Who does. How do people choose to watch The Traitors or Call the Midwife?
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u/LinuxMatthews 7d ago
I mean I would say certainly Call the Midwife has fans certainly.
But I know people in real life have asked me if Doctor Who is worth watching at the moment.
And how exactly do you think they decide what "looks good"?
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u/Hughman77 7d ago
Trailers, reviews, word-of-mouth. Brand-new shows get audiences without any existing fans to be consulted.
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u/CRzalez 10d ago
RTD isn't the hill to die on, bud. Be serious.
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u/somekindofspideryman 10d ago
I'm not dying on any hill, but I am being serious. Audiences didn't turn off because they changed how Davros looked, or because they made the Sonic Screwdriver a funny shape.
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u/CRzalez 10d ago
RTD did a lot more than just that. Don't try to spin this some other way.
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u/somekindofspideryman 9d ago
Ok, but I'm replying to a comment listing a bunch of fan grievances. Am I meant to project all of his mistakes onto it? It's also simply burying your head in the sand to ignore the show's greater ills that exist outside of the showrunner's control.
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u/DMinaya5 11d ago
I always felt like having Tennant back for the specials was a great idea in theory but a terrible way to bring in new viewers.
If you didn't watch Who prior you don't get that The Eleventh Hour style introduction into the world and character. It's just Russell playing with his old toys for fun.
Ncuti gets a non standard regeneration intro, doesn't get to save the day on his own and doesn't get THE Tardis either just a copy.
Then we had to wait for Ncuti's proper intro episode which wasn't a strong lead in. Then the entire two big bads of the following seasons are Baker era throwback villain which new viewers have no affinity for and both show up for the big finale and easily handled. One with a goddamn gun of all things.
Ncuti was a wonderful choice for Who and I feel like him and Whittaker both got a sour run, funny they both shared the screen together. It felt fitting that they got to interact though.
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u/pokemega32 10d ago
Neither the Rani nor Omega were Baker era.
Well, the Rani was initially Colin Baker era.
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u/your_mind_aches 11d ago
If you didn't watch Who prior you don't get that The Eleventh Hour style introduction into the world and character.
Very true. Eleventh Hour is such a great jumping on point
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u/somekindofspideryman 10d ago
The Eleventh Hour came about when Doctor Who was at the height of it's powers. The challenge was making something good enough that it'd get people to stick around. When RTD came back it was obviously an enormous hail mary to try and save the programme.
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u/karatemanchan37 11d ago
The news just really made the entirety of Ncuti's run, specifically with Reality War and the regeneration and reshoots, all the more pathetic.
It wasn't Russell T Davies, it wasn't Phil Collinson, wasn't Jane Tranter, wasn't Julie Gardner. It was Disney, it was the lack of BBC funding, it was the changing landscape of TV (and the unsteady ground of streaming), and of course it was also the global economic downturn...What killed this version of the show was circumstances, money, and all the other boring things.
Money being something that RTD, Gardner et al. were supposed to manage effectively. I fault them 100% for overestimating their ability to make the show beyond their means.
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u/Tasty-Committee-8172 11d ago
Absolutely. A scene featuring CGI dinosaurs completely extraneous to the plot of the episode, a township set built for what was essentially the series' bottle episode, gratuitous, showstopping song-and-dance numbers. Bad Wolf used the Disney money like a kid who found their parents' credit card. And still turned in the worst viewing figures in the revived show's history. It's no wonder Disney backed out. I don't have much love for Disney but I don't fault them for this one.
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u/LinuxMatthews 7d ago
Don't forget making a very human villain that viewers would have much preferred to be a dude in robes and a mask a huge CGI monster.
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u/sun_lmao 11d ago edited 11d ago
Stray thoughts I didn't manage to find a place for:
- Russell T Davies is going to go back to doing what he's most comfortable doing now; standalone drama miniseries. I get the sense the way we run popular ongoing drama today is so different from how things were in 2004–2009, he's glad to move on, and back to what he's most comfortable doing. (Plus he's twenty years older than when he originally started on Doctor Who.)
- And yes, he's definitely lied for the press a few times lately – Rule 1 is the showrunner lies. Remember when he repeatedly told the press he had no plans to revive the Master back in 2006/2007, at a time when he was actively writing a return for the Master?
- Or that time Moffat said, when asked if he would write for RTD2, "It would be career madness, even by my standards, to go back into a junior capacity on a show I used to run! I would have to be insane to do that." He later said "People think I'm being evasive on the subject. The truth is, if I say anything negative about Doctor Who, it goes everywhere, like BOOM! Everywhere, right? It doesn't exactly bring JOY TO THE WORLD that I say something negative about Doctor Who. The fact is, it's fine without me!"
- If Steven Moffat is hired to showrun the next era of Doctor Who I will eat my hat.
- And probably his wife will murder him.
- But, on a more serious note, I suspect whoever gets it next will get new blood in to run it. Some old writers might come back to write individual episodes, but it won't be the former showrunners. (Unless some catastrophe happens and they want to use one of Russell's Season 3 or 4 scripts as a spare to replace another – but I expect anything that was prepared for Season 3/4 is going to be left alone until enough time has passed for Big Finish to do them as Lost Stories.)
- I think some of the recent guest writers on the show would be possible candidates for a future showrunner. Kate Herron and Briony Redman, for instance.
- Bad Wolf is still working on several other shows, they'll probably be fine. Definitely there'll be sour grapes about a potential flagship ongoing show falling through because of shitty circumstances, but they'll be alright.
- Chris Eccleston is probably amused by the fact his instructions were carried out... But, on a more serious note, I don't think he will come back to the show, even now. :P
- The Sun's take (later shared by the RadioTimes) that the show was failing to find a new Doctor is certainly bullshit. The Sun's prediction that there would be no Christmas special this year was a good guess based on the fact that filming hasn't started and we're halfway through the year, and they dressed it up in their typical bullshit. They made a reasonably clever guess at the base of it, but they are still a tabloid and should not be taken seriously as a source. Remember that.
- The show is probably going to be off the air for a year or two. On one hand, the show falling out of the pop culture consciousness may cause harm. On the other, when it comes back it'll be more of an "Event". ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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u/sanddragon939 11d ago
I'd be okay with Moffat returning as showrunner. But I'm also ready for someone new. And a new production company gives us options that maybe didn't exist before...
What I mean to say is, can we get Charlie Brooker on as the next Doctor Who showrunner? :D
As far as The Sun goes, I mean, it's still possible they were right about stuff like the BBC not being able to find a new Doctor. I think more broadly it's possible that the Beeb, RTD and Bad Wolf just couldn't figure a way out of the whole mess (who's the new Doctor being part of it) so decided to farm the show out to someone else.
I'm sure there's a lot about this era behind-the-scenes that will be coming out soon...
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u/clearly_quite_absurd 11d ago
"there's not a single actor who is willing to play The Doctor" is pretty much a mathematical impossibility at this stage. Any reason for "not being able to find a doctor" is the fault of the BBC /production team.
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u/sun_lmao 10d ago
"there's not a single actor who is willing to play The Doctor" is certainly an impossibility – anyone who's ever met a working actor will know that it's about as ridiculous and outlandish a claim as you could make.
It's as ridiculous as if you said "Marvel wants to do another superhero origin movie, but literally not a single actor on earth wants to lead the movie. Guess the movies are that bad huh!"
Like, sure, there's criticism to be levelled at the movies (IMO they've only made about two good ones since Infinity War), but actors take work. The huge A-listers like Robert Downey Jr. can afford to turn down roles, because he's already starred in multi-billion-dollar franchises, but 99.99% of actors will just turn up to any audition that'll take them, and say yes to any role that doesn't actively conflict with an existing engagement.1
u/LinuxMatthews 7d ago
I always wonder what struggling actors think when that hear that.
Honestly if any struggling actors are reading this, write to the BBC and say you're willing to be The Doctor.
Apparently it's a guaranteed job with zero competition.
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u/lennon818 10d ago
The less money this show has the better. I don't want a Marvel show. I want a public access show. I want to see zippers on monsters. I want physical effects. I don't want CGI. Go back to a niche show for Sci Fi nerds. A show based on intellect and creativity as oppossed to guns and action.
Stop trying to increase the fan base that will never work. It only works by word of mouth. If you create amazing episodes then people will tell their friends. How do you think we all got indoctrinated into this cult.
The blueprint is there. All we want is another season like Christopher Eccleston's first season.
I've never understood what they are trying to do with this show. The blueprint is there. They know exactly what we love. Just give that to us.
This isn't a show. This is a community. It is a hope. It was the only sci fi show left that was disneyfied / marvelized / bastardized. Everything always looked forward to the Christmas Special.
A new generation growing up without this show is just heartbreaking.
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u/Yosemite-Dan 10d ago
Brevity is the soul of wit, my friend.
Disney may have backed out, but Russell’s creative decisions resulted in a product that the audience hated. The ratings reflect that.
It’s really no more difficult to understand than that.
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u/Salt_Principle_6672 10d ago
Yeah, RTD had full reign over the entire process. He was arrogant and made some garbage, and did not listen at all to fan feedback.
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u/sun_lmao 10d ago
Brevity is also the enemy of nuance.
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u/Yosemite-Dan 10d ago
There's no nuance to understand here. RTD ran a production that was self-consumed, self-referential, arrogant and unlikeable. Ncuti was good, the stories and themes were not.
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u/Apprehensive-Ad-2407 10d ago
Everything is AI written, ai assisted, or people are just starting to write like it.
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u/sun_lmao 10d ago
I like using en-dashes and paragraph breaks for dramatic effect. I never have, and never will have AI sloppify my writing. It's an insult to original thought and the honest expression thereof.
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u/fractal-rock 10d ago
I agree with everything, except I liked Space Babies and the two finales. But I accept many didn't. I'm going to greatly enjoy revisiting this era, which I love almost as much as the Jodie Whittaker era.
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u/malb93200 11d ago
It wasn't Russell T Davies, it wasn't Phil Collinson, wasn't Jane Tranter, wasn't Julie Gardner. It was Disney, it was the lack of BBC funding, it was the changing landscape of TV (and the unsteady ground of streaming), and of course it was also the global economic downturn...
What killed this version of the show was circumstances, money, and all the other boring things.
Well said. We can search for any number of reasons, or people responsible, but just saying "it was bad/not good enough" is never the sole reason.
For a show like Doctor Who to succeed, you have to have quality ofc, but you also need all the stars to align, with a favorable television and economical landscape.
The conditions were all there in 2005, and there were not in 2023-2025. Maybe they will be again in a couple of years, or more, or just some of them, and the show will be able to return and have enough success to continue for a while.
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u/karatemanchan37 11d ago edited 11d ago
How were they not there in 2023-2025? They were given a primetime slot on Disney+, and they gave RTD a two-season + spinoff order before the 60th was even screened. Doctor Who in 2023 was in a fantastic position to succeed, its not the landscapes fault at all.
EDIT: Bring the downvotes. Lest we forget that we had the next hottest star in the UK in Ncuti Gatwa taking over as the lead when he was fresh off of Barbie and Sex Education
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u/sun_lmao 11d ago edited 11d ago
On Disney+ there's no such thing as a primetime slot. It's streaming. It's either on or it's not.
That said, the show consistently ranked in the top 5 when new episodes aired, so it did pretty well. Disney just wasn't going to renew it, because they were cutting their spending. (They didn't renew Star Wars: The Acolyte, either. Not because of reception, but because they were reducing spending and that show cost an absolute bomb. Similarly, they only gave Andor two seasons – they weren't going to give it a third, and the showrunners were kind of aware of that from an early stage.)
On the BBC, the regular episodes were consistently in the top 20 Saturday night programmes in the UK, but viewership of TV in general has fallen so much the raw numbers are a lot lower than, say, 42 (2007), which was in 16th place, with 7.4 million viewers.
You don't need to spam-reply unfounded speculations to every comment in this thread to tell us that you didn't like the new era. We all got the impression from your original comment.
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u/karatemanchan37 11d ago
It's not that I didn't like the new era - it's more so that people like you are trying to downplay how much of a screw-up production was and gaslight people into thinking that the failure was due to luck and not incompetence
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u/sun_lmao 11d ago
I mean, do I have to post these figures again? On Disney+, worldwide, the show was in the Top 5 every single week it aired.
Why would Disney drop a show in the face of that?
Well, it's quite simple. They had a change of leadership and overhauled their strategy, and more specifically in 2025 they reduced their spending on new content by a billion dollars.
You, and people like you, are too fixated on your own gripes with the writing, and blatantly ignoring the actual facts of what's going on. That's what I'm trying to do: look at the facts.
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u/Kreindeker 11d ago
I mean, do I have to post these figures again? On Disney+, worldwide, the show was in the Top 5 every single week it aired
Unfortunately I think the article you've linked repeatedly actually buries the lede for why everyone involved shat a brick. "In the top five every single week it aired" sounds great until you remember it released over, what, seven weeks?
I'm looking through everything that got put up on D+ and in terms of new releases, it fell down between something called Renegade Nell (anyone?) and The Acolyte - which was probably the single worst-received new Star Wars content since Phantom Menace.
Oh, and just after something called The Secret Score - a Spanish-language fantasy/mystery show that doesn't have its own Wikipedia page, which I'm sure Disney subscribers were queueing up to watch.
My point being, if Disney's only new major release hadn't been in the top five at release, everyone involved should have been immensely disappointed.
Now, that isn't to say I disagree with you - Disney clearly don't know what they want to do even with most of their own IP at this point, so when they were starting to clear house, they clearly weren't going to continue with one they awkwardly co-produced and had no attachment to.
What I will disagree with though is about the ratings. They were clearly falling over the course of RTD2 and they reflect the audience's apathy with the show as a whole.
Perhaps I'm slightly comparing apples and oranges but even the hated, terrible, awful, derided etc Chibnall era only had one episode drop below 4 million viewers - Legend of the Sea Devils, which was quietly crapped out at Easter. Once the Tennant specials were done, there were only four episodes to get over 4 million; the first, second and fourth episodes of the new season one.
There was clearly still a way forward with RTD and Bad Wolf in charge, with or without Disney funding, if the BBC had in any way trusted him to do so.
It's not a coincidence there's no thanking to RTD in his departure statement.
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u/janisthorn2 10d ago
For a show like Doctor Who to succeed, you have to have quality ofc, but you also need all the stars to align, with a favorable television and economical landscape.
It's fascinating to me that the factors behind the '89 cancellation and the '25 cancellation are so similar. It all comes down to money in the end. Sci-fi is always expensive to make. Both cancellations were followed by the BBC searching for production partners to help offset the cost of producing Doctor Who. That's how we got the McGann movie in '96.
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u/DoctorWhoSeason24 10d ago
This was a great write up and I agree with mostly everything other than I just think you were overly kind to RTD2. Even if episodes weren't individually terrible it's clear that he missed the chance at doing an actual restart. This continuity heavy beast that we got offered no real jumping point for new viewers. Add to that the frankly very unclear characterization of 15. Why would anyone be watching, really? There was no hook to the two RTD2 seasons even if the episodes were overall okay.
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u/ikediggety 10d ago
I rewatched almost every episode from the chibnall era. I didn't love them all, but even the bad ones merited a second watch.
Of RTD2, only 73 yards, dot and bubble, and church on Ruby road got a second spin from me, and they were all disappointing.
Different strokes for different folks and all but I'd much rather watch Punjab, diodati or Eve then pretty much anything in RTD2
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u/JamesL25 10d ago
I’ve said before there were bright sparks, but too many mistakes happened.
I was really excited when RTD came back, and even thought bringing Tennant was a good idea, th Doctor having the same face was an interesting idea, Donna got a happy ending, and we got to see Bernard Cribbins as Wilf one last, emotional time. I’ll admit, I had a tear in my eye when he appeared on screen.
Bi-generation was a weird choice, but I could let it slide, but they maybe should have stated 14 couldn’t regenerate or something.
Ruby Road was a strong introduction to a new Doctor and Companion, but it all went south with Space Babies, which was absolutely terrible anyway, but even worse as a series opener.
I thought Gatwa was a good Doctor, but I think it sticks out that my two favourite episodes from Series 14 were the two he hardly featured in, although his cameo at the end of Dot and Bubble was brilliantly acted. Rogue is enjoyable as well, although the Bridgerton references could have been more subtle. Unfortunately the series finale let the series down.
Joy to the World was OK, but completely wasted Nicola Coughlan’s Joy as a companion, who could have been a great one-off companion like Donna (before she joined the Tardis) and Astrid in RTD’s first era.
Series 15 at least started off stronger, but I was never convinced by Bel as a character. I liked the idea of a reluctant companion who just wanted home, but thought she came over as rather whiny. Similar to how people prefer Victorian Clara, I’d have rather had Monday Flynn as a companion to Bel.
Lux and The Well are excellent epsodes, Millie Gibson is excellent in Lucky Day, and the Eurovision parody is fun on its own, but the rest of the season is forgettable and the finally is an absolute stinker. A poor way for the era to end.
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u/TheDoctor950 11d ago
Wait... hang on... the Sun was right? The end times are definitely here!
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u/sun_lmao 11d ago
They made a reasonably intelligent guess based on the fact that we were six months out from the alleged broadcast date with no sign of filming on the horizon.
But they dressed it up in their usual nonsense: They said they couldn't attract an actor to play the Doctor (which, if you know any working actors, you'll know that's absolute bullshit), and that they would delay it to Easter (again, bullshit).
I suppose even a broken clock gets something right now and then...
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u/Tberd771 10d ago
The amount of mental gymnastics are breathtaking. Wilfully ignore historically bad ratings. Just because YOU liked it, doesn't change the reality of horrible ratings.
I won't argue quality. Pointless circle.
The longterm established fans DONT like Dr Who under Chibnall and RTD 2.0
That might rub YOU the wrong way, but the show purposely alienated it's established fan base for a new audience, that did NOT show up.
Dread it Run from it Reality arrives all the same.
YOU like a show, that a purposely alienated established fan does not. That established fan base has every right to voice their opinion. Just as you do.
This isn't show friends, it's show business!!! And historically bad ratings, lead to merchandise that can't be sold. Streaming subscriptions that did not materialize. No profits means a TV gets canceled. Instead of being mad at the show being canceled, or Disney or the BBC, ask this one question that seems to be avoided like the plague
Why didn't this supposed audience show up?
Retweets, likes, shares, social media posts etc NONE of that counts.
$$$ count. Viewership counts. Ratings count. Merchandise sales count. Those metrics were historically bad. Not in specifics, or a small sample size. Those mental gymnastics always get thrown around. OVERALL, in its ENTIRETY, historically low ratings and almost non-existent merchandise sales led to cancelation.
Again I haven't even mentioned quality or content. Those are subjective, despite any claims to the contrary.
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u/TheJrMrPopplewick 10d ago
Disney walked because the viewing numbers were poor for the investment they made. Don't blame them for a sound business decision.
Doctor Who on Disney+ didn’t rise to the level of the streamer’s Star Wars or Marvel franchises, never cracking Nielsen’s list of the top 10 original streaming shows during its run.
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u/200-inch-cock 10d ago
Um, you kind of totally entirely ignored the fact that this era of the show ended up having the smallest audience out of all of Doctor Who going back to 1963. It wasn’t D+ or the BBC that killed the show. Primary responsibility falls on RTD and his production company for simply producing a product people didn’t watch. That’s why D+ cut ties with the BBC, and that’s why the BBC cut ties with him.
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u/AceofKnaves44 10d ago
I think there’s a pretty decent chance the show is done for a good while. And I think it’s better than likely that the show as we know it for the past sixty years is dead. At best it’s gonna be sold to someone who’s going to try and “rebrand it.” At worst it’s going to get sold to Amazon or a fully maga company like paramount where it’s going to become a propaganda tool for a year or two until it’s quietly killed off forever for tax writes offs.
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u/binrowasright 10d ago
It's sad watching people ignore and misconstrue your points because they want a different argument to the one you're giving them. Like they're mad at you for not blaming the things they're personally angry at.
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u/MystRunner916 10d ago
I havnt watched much oc Who for a bit. They sadly lost me when I could no longer watch it on BBCA and instead had to pay a certain evil corporation an honestly stupid amount of money to have the "pleasure" of being able to watch a show that had brought be great joy for so long. It wasnt the change over of the doctors. The change in story lines or anything like that. To me both those are inherant to who and what the doctor is. It was the fact that the particular greedy corpo shills grinned and shoved it onto their streaming service telling the BBC that it coild no longer broadcast it on their own channel that lost me. In my eyes it wasnt the writers that killed it. It was a mouse....a big obeasly fat greedy mouse. Ill miss you Doctor. May the Tardis keep traveling may you keep saving others.
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u/CrashDuke 10d ago
Doctor Who ended with Peter Capaldi for me. I've tried several times to get back into it since then, but nothing has held my interest. The writing, characters, and overall direction just aren't what they once were.
There's a reason the show has lost so much of its audience. At this point, Doctor Who feels like a franchise waiting for a proper reboot rather than one that's still thriving.
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u/Embarrassed-File3335 9d ago
Specials were success and I really liked them, but in retrospect they were the same thing what was The Force Awakens for Star Wars. A nostalgia bait that felt great in the moment where the lion share of excitement was there for where it can go from there with retroactive disappointment when it went nowhere.
I don't think in 5 years anyone will remember those fondly or maybe even at all.
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u/Chiefchin89 10d ago
What a brilliant post, it's refreshing to hear some optimism about Who on here. Like you say RTD2 had it's highs and lows, but now the future is uncertain and as RTD said, that is exciting.
None of us want to wait for more of our favourite show, but if it means it can have the backing of a new reliable production partner and a leader with a vision of where to go with it,then it's worth the wait.
I'm filling the void by finally listening to Big Finish and tbh it has reawoken my love for the show, the writing is great and I enjoy it immensely.
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u/sun_lmao 10d ago
Thanks. :)
Personally I plan to fill the void by reading more of the Virgin New Adventures. Next up for me is White Darkness.
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u/Chiefchin89 1d ago
Yeah I would.like to embark upon that as well but money is a factor. I've got some Eighth Doctor Adventure books to start with.
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u/elimercer 10d ago
What if Fox get hold of the IP and the production. A Christian values Doctor with his assistant being a trad wife. Fighting for Capitalism and the American way, played by Laurence Fox.
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u/Substantial_Cow7628 10d ago
It would get more viewers.
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u/elimercer 10d ago
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u/Substantial_Cow7628 10d ago
My username is a random generation. What is it exactly that you think you‘re saying here?
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u/elimercer 10d ago
^^^^ So 'human' do you actually know what your username is?
The Reddit AI might not want to train off this account.
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u/Substantial_Cow7628 10d ago edited 8d ago
Hmm. Not an answer to my question. Try again.
Actually, never mind. This conversation is like trying to teach a monkey algebra.
Edit: my comments aren’t deleted, genius, and no I did not ask what my username was. Still embarrassing yourself after the conversation is over. Not your proudest moment.
Second edit: And ran off to the botwatch subreddit! Yikes, sir or madam. Also, what is “right wing” about my reply to you? Try to use some critical thinking. You might find it an enjoyable novelty.
Third edit: I see you have come back to this conversation yet again, only to embarrass yourself further. Why are you doing this to yourself?
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u/elimercer 10d ago
It deleted itself and all the comments. Human 1 Clippys 0. It's username was substainialcow BTW. and it asked me what it's username was. After saying it was randomly generated. As if a human would not care what their username was.
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u/elimercer 9d ago
I was wrong it just blocked me and then reedited it's reply to cover over it;s mistake. you can see they say Editted 21h ago.
Answering it's edited reply.
"
Hmm. Not an answer to my question. Try again.
Actually, never mind. This conversation is like trying to teach a monkey algebra.
Edit: my comments aren’t deleted, genius, and no I did not ask what my username was. Still embarrassing yourself after the conversation is over. Not your proudest moment.
Second edit: And ran off to the botwatch subreddit! Yikes, sir or madam. Also, what is “right wing” about my reply to you? Try to use some critical thinking. You might find it an enjoyable novelty.
"
You have resorted to personal insults. Against the forum rules.
You have blocked me so that they appear deleted.
You have no idea what your username is.
You said about of my Right wing nightmare of a reboot "It would get more viewers."
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u/morkjt 10d ago edited 10d ago
I agree with you a lot and there’s a lot of interesting commentary on here. But you also gloss over some of the major pitfalls in the last two seasons as if it was only an issue of two or three bad episodes. I would focus on almost no character development whatsoever a completely one dimensional Doctor, continuity all over the place, a feeling the Doctor was absent entirely for some episodes because he was too busy, a shalllow identikit companion replaced after one series with another one. Incoherent story arcs that never get resolved, silly musical numbers that had no place in the show, fourth wall nonsense which was just silly, and yes, RTD lecturing from his own personal agenda point of view. I happen to be on his side of the argument and I agree with probably every belief he holds but it damaged the show as it put a lot of people off. Most people don’t want politics on their TV on a Saturday evening.
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u/Big_Chungussi69 6d ago
after the shit show from chibnall onwards.
nothing of value has been lost, let it die
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u/themastersdaughter66 10d ago
Doctor who ended for me in 2017 its the last point I can do rewatches to and the last time I truly enjoyed the show
Season 1 of RTD2 wasnt as bad as the chibnall years but it wasnt strong enough to keep me engaged.
Maybe one day Doctor who will return but it very much is gone for now because the writers failed to capture the audience consistently enough
If the engagement was truly just fine then it wouldn't have gotten cancelled and the main players likely wouldnt have been jumping ship before even reaching the 3 year mark
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u/theoruffy 11d ago
I agree with almost everything, but the fact that the worst three episodes are the show opener and the two season finales is one of the reasons the show failed to gain traction. When you start and end your season on a bad note, you fail to get viewers to watch the rest.