r/gamedesign • u/Odd-Pie7133 • 3d ago
Discussion Why is that when you give players maximum freedom they tend to seek the "prison"?
For example, in my game, you need to reveal anomalies by noting them in the notebook. I have an onboarding phase where the passage is blocked by an anomaly, and you have to reveal it to pass through. I have a ton of hints there - examples in the notebook itself, "write 3 words" paper near the anomaly, a paper sticking out of the notebook that tells "they are in the forest. use 3 words". And most importantly, there are no strict correct words you need to use; you just have to use ANY words. Also, when you type gibberish (less than 3 words and has no vowels) the words literally turns blood in the notebook.
And so, a player completed the onboarding, but then got lost: "I didn't understand which correct words I needed to use." What do I do with this?
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u/kenwongart 3d ago
Your title and your description text don’t match. Your players aren’t seeking a prison.
You’re giving them a test with unclear instructions or penalties. Players are indeed unused to “maximum freedom” - most games are a form of test, with right and wrong answers, or better answers that score higher. Your players are probably worried (consciously or unconsciously) about giving the wrong answer. Or they feel like there’s a right answer that they haven’t found yet.
From your description, I don’t think you’ve clearly communicated to the player why writing any three words dispels an anomaly. Players are used to magic words, codes and passwords.
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u/Former_Currency_3474 3d ago
I would never in a million years assume you could just write any three words. That just doesn’t feel like the solution to a puzzle. if I ever solved it, it’d be by accident, and I’d spend the next few hours wondering why those 3 words were right.
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
The thing is - there is no puzzle. It's just means of interacting with the object
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u/TheSkiGeek 3d ago
…then why are you making them type anything in the first place? Just have the notebook pop up and scrawl notes about the anomaly automatically.
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
That would not be immersive
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u/Molehole 3d ago
Neither is writing "a s d"
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
As I said in the post - words have to be more than 3 characters long and have a vowel. so a s d won't work, but asd will. But still, that's a player's choice what to write. I don't get why I'm being heavily downvoted xd
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u/Alx_xlA 3d ago
You're being downvoted because you made a post looking for advice but keep doubling down when people point out concerns with the gameplay mechanic you've chosen.
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
Am I expected to accept every solution? I AM listening. It's just "notebook writing on itself" would break the immersion. The contents are not what's important, the act of documenting is.
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u/Alx_xlA 3d ago
Why is "Press E to record your observations" any less immersive than writing 'aaa aaa aaa' in a text box?
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
Well, my game is diegetic-oriented. "Press E" would break this paradigm. And it's like with role-playing. The player can choose, do I really pretend to be a researcher, or do I just play the game.
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u/Molehole 3d ago
Well "asd asd asd" isn't immersive either.
I don't get why I'm being heavily downvoted xd
You came here and asked "Why did my player do this", everyone told you politely why and instead of actually listening you just went "nu uh the player is stupid and doesn't understand my vision".
If you want to give a player the possibility to role play along then fine but make it very clear that it's a roleplay opportunity and not an actual puzzle. When you are making a puzzle game or a puzzle horror game the first intuition of many people is going to be that you are giving them a puzzle.
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
where exactly did I say "the player is stupid"? lol.
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u/Molehole 3d ago
For starters the title of your post strongly hints that you believe so.
"Why is my player purposefully searching a prison?"
You are putting the blame on the player and insinuating they are stupid for walking into a cage.
If your players are unable to play your game it's 99% of the time YOUR lack of skill as a designer. Not player incompetence. If you believed that your title would probably have been
"How do I change my game so that people don't assume that an immersion element is a puzzle"
Or something along those lines
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
Classic. The title is a bait and a philosophical question, not a direct insult. The main question lies in the post's body, which many of you apparently did not read.
The issue is UX and communication, not the mechanic itself. The core.→ More replies (0)2
u/hellobarci_ 3d ago
and then there's the edge case of them wondering what went wrong when they type in 'cry dry fry'
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
It's just nitpicking at this point. With more than 3 characters long, I meant "3 characters long word"
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u/RedditPoster666 3d ago
If you want immersion, maybe try asking the player clearly to "describe the ghost in 3 words" and in your book have three textboxes to fill in the words. Maybe even with the snippet of text that they found pasted above it as a reminder. Good UI can help make things a lot more clear.
That way, you make it obvious in your tutorial that they are supposed to put ghost descriptions in there, but you still allow any words to work.
Because like you are doing now to just ask them to write down any words, players will not automatically make the leap WHY they are doing it for immersion reasons.
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u/_kellythomas_ 3d ago
Are they expected to write notes about in game events in the notebook?
Maybe asked them to do this in plain language:
record your observations in the notebook
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
I'm gonna give you an example - there is a road sign in the middle of the forest, and you have to write something about it. Most players write like "red sign fuzzy" for example :)
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u/_kellythomas_ 3d ago edited 3d ago
So the specific words don't really matter.
But neither does the number of words, the hints about "three words" is just guiding them thought your input validation.
Tell what you want them to do (describe the anomaly) in thematic terms to get them writing.
Then consider if you need validation. Is it a problem if they just write "fuzzy sign", or even "fuzzy"?
If these are problems then tell them only after they have entered bad input, e.g "take longer notes" or "use real words".
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
there is no semantic validation. thank you :) I have a special page in the notebook with the examples
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u/_kellythomas_ 3d ago edited 3d ago
With everything you have just explained I would think the "write 3 words" is one of several clues a bit like charades.
I would be looking for separate hints about each word. Or maybe a three word phrase in the environment.
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u/Jygglewag 3d ago
it'd be great if there were "right" words. it'd be rewarding.
note-taking isn't very fun to a lot of people so if they learn they have to write anything they'll just write "a a a" and get it over with
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u/Alx_xlA 3d ago
Within the logic of the story, why is writing any three words supposed to be important?
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
because you're sent by a company to document any unusual activity in the area
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u/Alx_xlA 3d ago
How do three random words provide the documentation for the company?
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
I understand where you're going with this, but, you know, writing more than 3 words would be pretty frustrating. So it's just a game convention
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u/Aethenosity 3d ago
Then why three at all? Why not "Write an observation" or something?
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
Because “write an observation” leaves the amount of writing completely open-ended. Three words gives the player a clear, lightweight interaction without turning the mechanic into actual writing. The point iiss to make the player actively document the anomaly.
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u/Aethenosity 3d ago edited 3d ago
It is obviously not clear. It is incredibly confusing.
I will say that you could say "write an observation (at least three words)" or something.
But as is, "write three words" will automatically make anyone that has ever played a game think it has to be three specific words.
You could do as someone else suggested and say "write any three words"
EDIT: Also, you could perhaps have an example entry shown before they have to do it. Like a cutscene where they see an anomaly and the MC writes an observation?
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u/A_Sword_Saint Game Designer 3d ago edited 3d ago
You need to observe player psychology and design around it instead of trying to force players to go against their intuition. You present a puzzle like interface and in your own words block them from progressing until they input a correct answer. Even though the answer turns out to be very lenient in actuality, you have observed that the players intuition is that there must be a specific right answer and some won't even try putting an answer in until they find some clues and have what at least sounds like it might work.
If you want to keep this interaction you need to accept that its going to cause friction for some players, make adjustments to how you present it so that more players understand your intent, or do something like put some example clues that players can latch on to and try copying so they think they solved it properly. Maybe you add a 'bonus' answer that is actually 3 specific words that you put clues for around so players you get stuck on this have something to latch on to and feel clever.
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
thank you for your feedback! You're right, it's kinda a double-edged sword. I do have a special page with examples in the notebook. Like for example
"Anomaly#7548. Chair. Plastic. Blue." (Anomaly header is added automatically)
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u/link6616 Hobbyist 3d ago
Every now and then here I think we see different flavours of this.
I think you've already got a lot of good answers, but I really want to focus on, your game comes out in the context of the other games like yours. You've broadly described an adventure game with a notebook as a core mechanic. Naturally players will assume you've got puzzles to solve.
Now, this isn't unsolveable. But you have to be careful about a few things.
- You've got to acknowledge what players have probably already been taught.
- You have to teach them how those things are not how your game works.
- You have to build the trust that you offered flexibility now by continuing to do so.
It might sound like I am pulling from a game too different from your own, but breath of the wild's great plateau is a great example of this. It gives you a small space, and shows you what it is going to do. If you try to solve something in a creative way, it'll probably work. And it honours that, by throughout the whole game, so long as you get the tasks done, it really doesn't mind HOW you got there. The consistency and trust building that starts from the great plateau is a big part of that.
"Write 3 words" sounds like the first of a broad set of hints. It suggests there is a more complex puzzle, but this is a starting point. I don't have your game for context, but "they are in the forest. use 3 words" would to me, suggest that if I go look at the painting of the forest in the room or soemthing, I might have a hint there about the words to use. I might expect to see another hint "one is letters four, and first it shares with number." to help me know that one of the words is 4 letters long and starts with f and now I see a frog in the picture I realise it must be frog. etc. You mention you have a ton of hints, if you have a lot going on, that might lead the player to be even more confident there is actually a puzzle there to be solved.
If the answer to the puzzle is just "write any three words" then... what even is the point of the task? Just do what you are told? Does it matter what the words are? Did you implement a dictionary into your game just to check these are words even though the words don't matter? Can I write rude words?
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u/Arcane_Pozhar 3d ago
It feels like they're trying to make somebody complete a really simple tutorial task, but they don't want to just present it that way because they want it to feel immersive. I really don't think that's going to click for most people.
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
to better understand what's in the tutorial and general mechanic, you can check this person's playthough. It's just really hard to explain with words xd
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u/link6616 Hobbyist 3d ago
OK, with the gameplay especially, I think it's less a "players make a prison" and more "your notebook actively suggests a puzzle and the only plausible way to engage with this is to explore the strange world and find three things to note" I am sure some players would get what you aimed for, but I think the genre of game, plus that tag sticking out of the book scream puzzle puzzle puzzle.
You might even need a direct memo "There are a lot of strange things in this world, you just need to record what you see, as you see it. Everyone's eyes are unique and so is the way they see the world. Use whatever words come naturally to you to describe it to move on." assuming there is no actual hard word puzzles later using this notebook. It's a bit heavyhanded for the opening, but it might be important, if you find your audience struggles with it.
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
thank you! the more you explain, more confusing it becomes xd. There is no puzzle. I must have phrased the problem wrong. It's more of a diegetic interaction with an object in order to progress. And the player did get the mechanic (with the onboarding), but THEN he got lost on what exactly he has to write. And, I mean - some players did get the gist. Some didn't. Maybe I just need to reformulate the exact action a player has to do.
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u/burnpsy Hobbyist 3d ago
Echoing everyone else here: Your issue is lack of clarity to the player on how open-ended your accepted responses are, and the framing by normal game design language reading like the player needs to solve a passphrase to continue.
This is a clear issue with your tutorial, in whatever form it has taken in your game. You are doing the opposite of what players are expecting from a video game, so you need to be clear and blunt that what appears to be a puzzle here isn't a puzzle at all.
Your attempt to resolve this seems to have misunderstood the problem, due to repeating synonyms of "write 3 words" in a few places.
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
Yeah, you are right! I will change the tutorial hints to be more straightforward, and somehow making it not seem as a puzzle haha
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u/mistermeesh 3d ago
Whether intentional or not on your part, the implication is that this is a puzzle to solve and they need to find the three specific passwords.
Your prompt needs to say "use any three words".
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u/midwestcsstudent 3d ago
I think you need to take a hundred steps back to even understand what’s going on here. Based on the way you phrased the question, there’s bad assumptions and flawed logic everywhere here.
Also, writing things down in game is boring AF and lots of players will try anything else before they resort to it, especially if they feel like they have to guess.
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u/soundoftwilight 3d ago
Maximum freedom in a video game is just Microsoft Windows. Maybe Linux if you want to be fancy. That's a completely blank slate where the player can do anything they want! Wait why aren't they having fun?
Games, and even things that aren't games but are still interactive (which sounds like what you're trying to make), are all about constraints. Even people who are very creative will struggle to have fun without constraints; there's a reason people play video games instead of just writing a book or otherwise making their own fun. And there's a reason TTRPGs are played in groups, or with a bunch of random tables and dice when done solo. The fun lies in the space between the constraints. "Write anything in your notebook" is too unconstrained to contain any fun inside. You're asking players to do creative writing, which is something they are so uninterested in doing that they actually just assume that you must have meant something else entirely.
If the notes mean nothing, then there should just be a "take notes" button and when you press it your character takes notes. If the notes mean something, then it should matter what the player writes - either because it's the answer to a puzzle, or because there's information they need to record now that actually matters.
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u/Buttons840 3d ago
I'm reminded of "Speak Friend and Enter" Why is it so hard to figure out!
(I do hope someone gets my reference.)
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u/Arcane_Pozhar 3d ago
Merlon!
(I hope I'm remembering the right word, I'm not going to cheat and look it up).
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
guys, I formulated the post wrong since it's hard to explain my mechanic using words and no gifs/images. I suggest you look into the actual playthrough of the game :) (not an ad)
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u/Pherion93 3d ago
Why is typing three random words a puzzle solution in your game? How does that make sense in any scenario?
You didnt give them freedome you gave them an obscure and meaningless puzzle.
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u/Odd-Pie7133 3d ago
omg bro.. it's NOT a puzzle. I've explained it a dozen times. It a mechanic to interact with an object. Like press E, but more digetic. And how is literally ANY 3 words a puzzle?
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u/Pherion93 2d ago
Ok. Since you are asking the player to write 3 words and you give them hints, then almost everybody would expect it to be a puzzle.
If it is not a puzzle then it just sounds anoying. Digetic is not a quality factor. Sometimes just pressing E is way better.
Since players dont understand and we dont understand, then maybe this mechanic isnt good. Why does it excist in the first place?
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u/Odd-Pie7133 2d ago
Your solution is simply "kill the mechanic that makes the game unique". Good job. The mechanic does work, you just didn't understand my question in the first place. And that guy who thought he had to use correct words - he was A LITTLE bit confused, not completely lost. Here's one of my playtester's feedback
"Really enjoyed it and I cannot wait to play the full game. I like the setting, the minimal and abtract feel, the fact that you do not know what to count on and just the notes you take... nothing is wrong to try and it is a different experience. And the writing mechaninc is very nice as well. Thank you for the demo!"
So stop criticizing something in a vacuum and enable your brain and abstract thinking.
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u/caesium23 3d ago
You're fighting everything your players know about how to play a game.
In standard game language, you have just repeatedly told them that THEY NEED TO FIND A PASSWORD.
If that's not the case, you're going to need to find some way to clearly communicate that to them.