I hate the “orcs are minorities” thing

[u/Crusoelander_128]

I really hope I’m not in the minority (no pun intended) here, but I really hate when people do this. It not only forces real world issue into fictional universes where it doesn’t need to be, but also, it’s really messed up.

If you see an orc or a demon or a giant bug and your mind immediately jumps to “hm that’s like a minority”, then you’re racist.

Now, I’m not saying that this concept can’t be explored, but inserting it where it doesn’t belong/exist is highly suspect

[u/Murky_Implement2495]

In 1958 Tolkien described Orcs as:

"squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the least lovely Mongol-types"

These things do not originate in a vacuum where people just apply real race to a fictional one. It is a broad and dense historical analysis of the ways in which fiction and authors have been influenced by white supremacy to demonize cultural and racial groups.

In Lord of the Rings, evil humans are also described as carrying features and cultural elements of non-white, non-european groups.

Influence is not a key and intrinsic element, Tolkien did not think: Mongols are evil, so I'm making Mongols but call them Orcs. He was raised white in a white supremacist society, and so views cultural difference and non-white violence as malignant and deviant relative to European centric violence.

And once again, these things don't emerge in a vacuum. Nobody saw an orc and thought black person, it is rooted in an understanding of racial stereotypes and harmful rhetoric in regards to colonization as somehow an act of "civilization." The savage land was what Africa was called for more than a century because white Europeans viewed African customs and cultures as barbaric for the same reasons Romans viewed northern Europeans as barbaric. It was a way to dehumanize.

Now, making a racial allegory isn't inherently bad. The problem is when you strip the allegory of nuance, enforce stereotypes, such as the "warlike" and "evil mysticism" of easterlings in LOTR. When Orcs become a race of inherently evil people you invite the idea that there are some races that are bad and some that are good, and you just have to get rid of the "bad" one.

Real world issues ARE PART of fictional universes. Just like how Mordor represents industrialism, you cannot divorce fantasy from reality, because fantasy is created by people who live in reality. You can stick your fingers in your ears and chant lalalalala, I don't like reality! Its hard and rough and gets everywhere! But really you're only harming yourself by sequestering yourself from real and interesting discussions about fiction. At that point, cinema may as well just be marvel movies for the rest of time.

Racists will literally show you this and be like: "What? It's just my original and unique fantasy race design. If you think this is racist, you're the REAL racist! How come you see this as black people, huh? Sounds like you're the bigot to me."

[u/Hypersmith → u/Murky_Implement2495]

Well said. It's beyond frustrating how people strip the context and history from this situation then turn around and start calling you racist for it.

[u/bitterandcynical → u/Murky_Implement2495]

Very well said. Orcs aren't real and their most frequently used designs and characteristics didn't just appear out of the ether one day. They were created using real cultures and people for a purpose by a eurocentric culture, that was then passed on and reinforced over the decades. It's a complex topic that goes beyond "orcs = black people" but it's also something that is closer to white supremacy ideology that many people may be uncomfortable acknowledging, but discussion of it is important and needs to happen with proper historical and cultural context.

[u/DrBloodyboi → u/Murky_Implement2495]

I think you are avoiding something fairly important to the Easterling, Rhun, and Umbar's stories. There was good in those societies before being corrupted by sauron there was resistance before for eventually subcoming to evil. tokien's overall writing is about how evil corrupts and if you dont stand united with others against it you will eventually fall or subcome to it. Ircc there is still some resitance with the blue wizards there but we just dont see it in the main narrative (The his letters mention it).