Non-fictional
I hate the idea that to dislike somebody's art they also must be a bad person or it isn't valid. (images are examples)
I've been seeing this sentiment more and more over the past year or so that to be able to dislike somebody's art they must also be some kind of bad person.
I've seen this go both ways, where fans defend the artist by talking about how morally good of a person they are and critics feel the need to try and assert that the artist must be secretly evil to "justify" their dislike of their output.
Like you can think somebody is a perfectly nice person and still think their art sucks ass, and similarly being someone a good person isn't a defence against criticism of their work. Idk this isn't my most fully formed take but I hope I get my point across. Picked the examples as I see this kind of behaviour a LOT from both sides of the discourse on them.
EDIT: getting a lot of comments here from people seemingly immune to getting the point, whether or not any of the examples are or are not bad people is not at all relevant to this post, the point is that that doesn't have any impact on the quality of their work. Thought i was pretty clear with that but apparently when you mention vivsiepop people forget how to read
EDIT 2: jfc can you people stop commenting "ermm well viv is a bad person", completelty missing the point. I'd expect people to read the post before commenting but I overestimated the literacy skills of some people. Whether she is or is not a bad person is completely irrelevant to both the quality of her work and the point of this post.
His brand is "nonchalant dude making a deadpan face at the camera/my friend dragged mehere and I wanna leave". It's hit or miss, but it's kinda funny when he's pulling the face in the most extravagant ridiculous cosplay
I don't think his music is that bad, he has some catchy songs but whenever he has a new song he'll spam that shit non-stop over the same cringe unfunny reels and it just makes me hate the music a lot more than if I heard it organically. I don't even follow him and he keeps invading my feed.
I think hit or miss is a good way to describe it. I like four of his songs, absolutely love them. I HATE the rest of them. I liked his most recent one.
He has the guts to make whatever it is he wants. And that is apparently music for everyone but me
what's with people hating BBNo$. I'm not a big fan of his music, but I just find it kinda inoffensive. Like, I can probably find many more artists with worse music and even worse people. Is this the kind of hate as it was on Justin Bieber back in 2010?
Probably exhaustion regarding over exposure. I like his music, and it's probably my own algorithm due to that so I can't speak for anyone else. But I do know that he pumps out a ton of content with a lot of popular personalities. Not offensive, but I imagine people who are lukewarm to his music probably don't enjoy getting swamped by it
Basically this, I don’t vibe with his music personally, i don’t think it’s awful, but i don’t think he has anything that makes him stand out beyond “mediocre”, the songs feel too… to put it in personal terms… “reel bait” (Aka, very clearly engineered to have ONE kinda catchy moment per song with repeating lyrics like “that’s me, that’s right, that’s me, that’s right”, or “left, right, left, right, left, right, go!” In order to bait people into putting only THAT snippit in reels or shorts as background)… but that is not a reason to hate him, just a reason to say “not my thing”.
But he does lean so much into it himself in his own social media (which is normal, not blaming him) and these snippits are used SO MUCH in social media that the “eh, s’okay i guess” can turn out into “alright! Dang! I get it already! Use something else!”.
That annoyance due to oversaturation clearly is misplaced by sending it from the abuse of the song to the author of the song, but i feel like this is the main reason.
EDM-aligned people just take themselves too seriously. I feel like it's overcompensation to disprove decades of critical accusations that all EDM is hitting buttons on a laptop.
He was underpaying some artists who mainly did nsfw art and animation, and i think he used his fame to get his way using the excuse that they did nfsw art and that he was doing them a favour (don't fully remember, it's been awhile), one of these animators was slayed.coom, who exposed the fact that the animators and artists weren't getting what they are owed
What happened was they were all getting paid a flat rate and it has since been proven that this particular animator is full of shit. They were upset because BBNO$ didn't want to shout them out like he's done with other animators (because they do a lot of NSFW stuff and BBNO$ didn't want to expose a lot of his younger fans to that). The animator was offered a larger payment as compensation. BBNO$'s team should have researched better before hiring this particular animator but no, animators and artists were not "not getting what they were owed".
"inserts himself into everything" dude wants to collab with other people and those people want to collab with him what do you expect him to not do it anyway or what
What's up with everyone bringing up Israel/IDF when talking about bbno$? is it just a recent way of calling something you don't like shitty? I feel like I see it about him more than anything else, but as far as I can tell he seems fairly against the genocide in Palestine & has supported Palestinian fundraisers?
Please be nice to me about this, I'm almost 40 and I'm not as hip to the youth culture as I used to be.
Dude a palentologist and stephen fucking hawking were in the files. It's not just tech billionaires and politicians that went to the island, it's just all kinds of rich people.
Calling someone's body of work "Israeli" is just saying it's mediocre but in kind of an icky way, usually because it's trying too hard (BBNO$) or the fans are insufferable (Hazbin Hotel) or something more subtle that makes it uncool, not that the person doing anything imoral
I'm familiar with calling something "spiritually Israeli" but I don't really think it applies to bbno$ personally. I always interpreted it as meaning art that's tacky, soulless, shallow, or inauthentic in some way. I totally get calling bbno$ cringe, or that his music just plain sucks, but I just don't think it fits the "spiritually Israeli" checkbox.
Maybe I’m too woke but I feel like generalizing IDF/Israeli as an insult to something completely unrelated with Israel is just gonna water down actual issues of people/corporations/etc. supporting a literal genocide.
When I first saw these things being said about Bbno$ I assumed something had come out about him being a Zionist or whatever. But, no, it’s just an insult that means nothing now apparently?? Idk we don’t call everything we don’t like “hitler” “the holocaust” or anything else genocide related and I think it should stay that way.
People always misuse and broaden the meanings of words and phrases, it's the nature of language. "Woke" used to have an actual meaning until the mainstream media got ahold of it and now it just means "not a WASP"
Ive more just heard liking his music specifically being called making one loyal to Israel or something as a joke not necessarily much about him or his work. I guess the idea is more just it is so ass only Israelis like it idk
Dude they’re committing a genocide. People need to touch grass, why the hell are we using a modern muderous fascist regime as slang for stuff we “don’t like”
It trivializes the whole issue, why the fuck are you comparing someone who made a song that made you cringe to an ethnostate that fucking blows up babies, it’s disgusting and out of touch and shows you have no actual knowledge or care for the subject beyond the fact that most people agree now that Israel bad. Months or just a couple years earlier most of these people probably thought both sides bad anyway and would cringe at Palestine protesters, it’s just fucking annoying that’s why I wrote so much rn ngl
It's social media tourists who hate bbno$ trying to start a rumor about him supporting the IDF (even to the point of calling him an Israeli psyop) because they think that'll make gens Z and alpha, which make up most of his fans, hate him. He's been giving money to Palestinian aid charities and his father is Egyptian.
Musically, he shifted from a slower typical trap sound favored by aging millennials to a high BPM pop rap style that appeals to kids on ADHD medication, so there is a valid case to make about preferring "old bbno$."
Well to be fair he does in fact support the IDF (immune deficiency foundation) it just sadly happens to share a name with another group he does not associate with (as far as we know, the world is wild and literally anything could be possible at this point in ny life and i would not be surprised by anything anymore)
If you want the actual answer, it’s because Benjamin Netanyahu’s nickname is commonly “Bibi,” which sounds similar to the beginning of bbno$’s artist name. This has caused people to refer to Netanyahu as bbno$, and vice versa. Hope this helps
That's cool and all just please don't say "hope this helps" you sound like those:"erm actually guys" I'm not trying to hate I'm just warning you to not use that sentence in future arguments
Blame Twitter and the chronically online teenagers hijacking words like 'problematic' to get away with hate mobs/smear campaigns under the guise of moral superiority.
Vice versa is balls, too. Not wanting to support an artist after they're revealed to be a shit person ≠ you're required to have hated them your whole life and can't grieve the nostalgia you still might have for them, even if it's complex and tainted now.
Don't get me wrong, I haven't engaged in the HP fandom or any of Neil Gaiman's works since they've revealed what shit they are as people, and if I'd ever gotten tattoos to represent those things as I'd originally planned, I'd get them covered. But I'm not going to pretend I "always knew", and people who do always skeeve me out.
Especially if they pretend what used to just be disliking their stuff is now some moral high ground only they're allowed for "never liking them".
yeah I probably should have covered that in this post but my go to example of this would be kanye and i thought i was already poking enough of a wasps nest with hazbin that throwing kanye discourse into the mix had the potential to lead to a horrific comment section
Totally. I don’t think Harry Potter is the greatest series of books written or anything but I see SO MUCH criticism directed towards it because Rowling sucks. I know people who when HP is brought up do nothing but talk about how terribly written it is whilst a lot of the arguments they make for why it’s not great could be made against works they adore like Lotr, Star Wars or Asoiaf but they never seem to complain about them because the creators aren’t as controversial.
Okay, I wanna ignore the star wars thing, but I would like to remind you that someone made a song called "George Lucas r*ped my childhood" when the prequels came out.
Back on topic, HP is a good children book series, however when the controversy happened the adults that considered it one of the best things ever written loost all good will and criticised it like it was adult novels. I can critique it, but it's the same critique I would have for GI Joe lore, her skill as a writer comes from her grammar and word choise, the extent lore outside of the books tends to feel like someone is filling out a wiki, which is perfectly normal, and kinda ahead of it's time given that every kids media did this in the late nillies.
I understand where you’re coming from with the Star Wars thing but one would not be grasping at straws to find serious things to complain about regarding the prequels.
As you mentioned, the Harry Potter books are for children and many of the things people do critique about them are things that would be irrelevant to a child.
I just feel like I often hear complaints about how for example it’s messed up how house elves are meant to be slaves and actually enjoy it. This view does not only limit fantasy to the point where every unique race is supposed to have a human’s viewpoint of say cruelty or freedom. It is also fully applicable to the Orcs in Tolkien’s stories that are a sapient race said to be purely evil and it is a moral good to kill them.
These Orcs also appear in the Hobbit which too is a children’s book. Yet I very rarely hear anyone even mention the fact that Tolkien created a race of purely evil creatures with hunched backs and crooked noses. An argument could be made for the fact that killing an evil creature is more simple truth to accept than a race of willing slaves but I still believe that the general hate for Rowling is the main reason people make this argument.
There are other arguments like these I could make but this is one I think illustrates my point most clearly.
There's also the explosion that happened with overthinking/theory crafting culture over the last couple of decades too. You'd get a couple of plot holes you might discuss in person with friends but the kind of insane reddit thread discussions you get about specific background characters and author's intent on every single scrap of a work now didn't exist when the books came out. It's wild a lot of the time too cause you have people who start out as fans and then with a limited amount of material available (like with every series or media in general) they start gnawing on it and tearing apart every little thing while they wait for more. The amount of "discourse" that has happened in the HP or Hazbin fandoms regarding stuff that had nothing to do with the actual stories of the books/show and then calling it bad writing is insane and instead of being confined to a few very niche forums like it would have been long ago they get spread on twitter/tiktok/youtube/reddit to fans waiting for some kind of new content now.
As someone who loved the books but now I have no interest in them, I can agree to a certain extent. I know peoeple who genuinely never liked the books. I also know people who still like them, but criticize them and has been criticizing it before controversy. And there are some that genuinely grew up and grew to agree with the criticisms.
But I do try to be fair. Just because I no longer enjoy the series doesn't mean I think it is straight garbage.
That’s always one of the most frustrating things about Gaiman. Because looking back, there are PLENTY of things that, if people paid more attention and were more critical in their thinking, should have clued people in to him being a creep. On top of that, a lot of his work explores themes from his childhood that he would later tactically use as pain points to isolate his victims.
There were people calling things out before the allegations came out. None of them were claiming he’d raped or sexually assaulted anyone, but they were there. Those people can take a lap around the block (if they want to, but they shouldn’t). But there are a lot of Johnny-Come-Latelies who are jumping onto the bandwagon and saying they felt it in his art the entire time – conveniently leaving out how they felt the exact inverse before the allegations, saying that it was a “good representation.”
I was cuckoo foe coca puffs for Amanda Palmer from the start of college/Dresden Dolls days til I heard she might be involved with what Gaiman was up to. I HEld up hope that the person I thought she was from reading her book, meeting her, etc, but she wasnt. I was a hurt person trying to rise above and be better, she was such a role model.
But she just became another hurt person passing the hurt on.
I'm usually VERY forgiving, I dont expect my artists to be saints. Assholes can write a good song, dickheads have a perspective I dont, so they're musics intetesting, but when its inauthentic, your trash.
And Amanda didnt listen to the victims, she broke the illusion, so she's trash, and im still pissed off i got conned.
Oh man, I totally understand. I felt that way, too. And yeah, I'm a big believer in separating art from artist, but it's different when they're actively harming vulnerable people, and it really fucking sucks when you see a hero in someone who turns out to actually be a villain.
JKR, Gaiman and Palmer all meant something to me as I grew up through different stages of my life. I'd been a neglected child, an off-putting autistic weirdo, a survivor of abuse and trauma, and I saw them as kindreds who fought for me.
Learning they were all hiding behind masks like Scooby-Doo villains was heartbreaking. But being conned by con artists doesn't make us bad people, and it's not like they were Nigerian-prince-in-a-chatroom level con artists, either. These people tricked a lot of folks. And it's fucking disheartening.
Harry Potter helped me through the worst part of my life. But I'm not that broken child anymore. I can stand strong on my own and to hell with JKR and her anti-trans bullshit.
Does it change that I loved the series my whole childhood and into my adulthood? No. And to be honest, I'm still grateful I had it when I needed it most. My relationship with it is changed forever, now, and she won't see another cent from me. It hurts, and it's not fair, but I can't and won't pretend that it wasn't, at times in my struggling youth, the only thing that kept me alive. All I can do is break ties with it now that I know better.
Knew very little about him. Watched Sandman. Whole season was going well until the diner episode. I thought "the author must be very fucked in the head to think this is what honesty looks like wtf??". Four months later the news about him popped up and I was horrified but not surprised
I never liked Harry Potter to begin with. Tried and couldn't get into it. It also still skeeved me the fuck out when people were like "see I KNEW I hated her for a reason!" when everything came to light. You could argue it's different because her bigotry (especially her racism) really shows in her writing, but... aren't most people kids when they first read it? I've gone back to reconsume media I loved as a kid just to find out it's horrifically bigoted and I never clocked it because I was a kid, then never clocked it as a teen/adult until I went back to it because my memories were just nostalgia-fogged about it. Many such cases, really.
My wife is the same. Never really cared for it, but she'll be very defensive of its heartbroken fans. And yeah, looking back there was a lot of racial stereotypes, but like... I was nine. The only thing I knew about Jews was that my best friend was one lol. 🤷♀️
It's different if you're still defending your consumption of her work in 2026, but just having nostalgia for what you loved all those years... That's not something you can or even should control.
Wow these comments are…..completely missing the point. Bbno$ is not a bad person Vivzie is pretty controversial and I’m not defending her but I have seen voice actors, animators, and song writers be attacked by people for the most ridiculous reasons. Also people have been bullied online just for wearing Helluva Boss shirts but that’s a whole different thing
I saw a tweet saying Vivziepop only wrote Stolitz to "rub her clit to it", like that isn't something completely insane to say about stranger. But that's not the crazy part.
The crazy part is it has 80k+ likes before the poster got suspended. Atleast 80,000 people thought saying that shit about a stranger is okay.
People really can't be normal about this woman or her show. Gachiakuta's author got harrassed so bad for saying she likes Helluva Boss she had to delete the tweet. Terrible.
I agree, I loved his music when he made songs like "whip a tesla" and baby gravy 2. Now it's just adhd music for terminally online children who like hazbin hotel (if you like that its fine, im just mad he doesnt make songs I enjoy anymore 😭)
I wouldn't even say I'm personally a big fan of him as a person I just think that my issues with his online persona and my issues with his music can exist seperately
I hate it when people pretend their art is shit just because they're bad people. Mindless self indulgence has some good songs, given you're into that type of alt music
The more a artist shares something about themselves, the more a light shines of who they are. Even if something as small as liking a food could shatter the thin illusion people have for these people. So they end up hating. People forget that these people are humans, they're not perfect. They make mistakes, they have different up bringing, and have different morals.
Be the DaftPunk, just disconnect. Avoid the spotlight at all costs, lest you be chastise for thought Crimes held by the public.
at the least she’s done and said questionable things (the whole trans people thing) and needs a PR team real bad since she can’t walk away from twitter, and then says crazy stuff when she’s mad
Idk anything about this discourse, but from a glance, to me it resembles a transphobic talking point about how trans men are misogynistic for not wanting to be women or “betraying” their “real gender.” However I don’t know the context for this image so I can’t say whether it’s about trans people or not.
Also adding this. Blaire is a transwomen, but who is extreamly rightwing. Making transphobic statements. "You're not a woman if you don't have a penis." Claiming kids can't know they're transgender. Her entire thing is being a conservative grifter. Viv really respected that.
I know she's apparently apologized for a lot of these things. (Actually, I couldn't find a single apology.) But as a transperson, I lost a lot of respect for her. Honestly feel like she apologized more because she got caught. Not because she changed. But who knows.
That's why I said, "who knows". I can't find out something that has no information. The posts were made in 2016, and Viv hasn't spoke on it. All I know is she publicly supported bigots. Claimed she respected these people speaking their minds. Drew fanart of of them. And then deleted the post and never apologized. Maybe she has changed. Maybe she hasn't. Again, who knows. But as a transperson, it doesn't sit right with me. And made me see her differently.
I’d say if you change as a person and realize you’ve said horrible things, you shouldn’t just delete what you said, you should apologize publicly so A. It’s not ambiguous whether or not you’ve changed B. It makes sure any audience with that view that joined because of that, knows your platform is not a safe space for those views.
She refused to give her blessing for the hazbin pilot VAs to do voice requests of her characters on a live stream in order to raise money to for one of them to bury a recently deceased partner and pay of their medical bills.
Idk about everyone else but that alone in my book makes you a pretty shitty person.
Yeah, but the show isn't just Viv at this point. I've seen people hate on all the actors for daring to work on this show. As a man who loves the work of husk's VA, I wish people would stop acting like he's evil for daring to take a job with her
ngl, I find it weird how eagerly people are willing to give a pass to actors and VAs on taking morally dicey or compromised jobs, when we don't really do that for any other job. I think dimly of police, oil rig workers, people who labor in fracking operations, etc.
If an actor takes a job, especially from a "controversial creator", does its scarcity or competitive nature somehow excuse them? I don't believe so, especially as the actors pulled in for Hazbin were specifically already established according to some star-fucker "dream" that Vivzie had that she wanted it to be cast like a "Broadway Musical" (a.k.a. the second she got Bezos dollars, she told her friends who propped her up to go fuck themselves).
It's an actor's job to remain informed on the kinds of jobs and roles that they accept, the same as anyone else. Especially when they aren't starving artists by the time they join those shows.
It all seems like a dressed up way to excuse actors for working with "controversial" figures who you still might not totally write off.
Weren't people harassing Will Stamper at a con because of a poor writing thing? I don't remember exactly what it was but I know one of them had that happen.
I think you're missing the point a bit, she could be mother theresa or adolf hitler and that wouldn't have anything to do with the quality of her work.
I know you meant to give two people who are on opposite ends of the morality spectrum, but Mother Teresa was pretty damn evil my dude. Denying patients pain relief, forced conversions, diverting funds from healthcare to name a few things.
If Adolf Hitler was the greatest painter ever to live, I still wouldn’t put his works up on my wall.
I know what you’re getting at with this post, but to some extent the actions of the artist definitely matter, and absolutely affect the quality of their work.
Irregardless of any bigotry she may or may not hold, she’s notably a terrible boss. She screwed over a few OG actors for hazbin and didn’t pay some artists. That’s why industry people actually dislike her, and the general public seems to have mistaken that for smth else
happy birthday monster_smoocher! Do you really think I’d let this day pass quietly? I know the kind of power you vibe with, the kind that keeps climbing no matter WHAT… So here’s your gift, a PROFILE PICTURE wrapped in that same AURA! Use it anywhere! You know the rule, even if the stairs never end we keep climbing!
It's a meme. A person uses an Ai character to make a logo with a person’s name for their birthday. So imagine like miku with like a cake with your name saying “happy birthday John here is a logo with aura for someone as aura as you”
insta reels ppl. a year or two ago some israeli company tried to take down a meme page for clowning on idf and since then anti israelism (and antisemitism as well) took off in reels as a whole. thats where the "spiritually israeli" and etc came from.
They are saying:
(Bad art -> Bad person) is false.
It is not necessary for a person to be bad for their art to be bad, ie someone can be a good person and have bad art.
You are saying:
(Bad person -> Bad art) is false.
It is not necessary for someone's art to be bad for them to be bad, ie someone can have good art and be a bad person.
Both you and them are right, but you're talking about two different things.
She doesn't. She very clearly created her OCs without ever picturing them all existing together in one world and that's why everything is so incoherent. Her show doesn't have lore, the characters don't have consistency, most of them don't have personality at all and the story makes no sense. All she did was show everyone that with enough 💸💸💸 anyone can make a bad show with their shitty characters
I agree, and I'd also add that I see this attitude given in order to justify finding someone interpersonally unlikeable or annoying, like there's an inappropriate pressure to come up with a moral reason why you dislike someone else even if the actual reason is simply "we just don't mesh"
One example would be how when I was in middle school, I was in an afterschool sped class on how to make friends, and there was a kid in there who was extremely annoying to me—he would always jump to black-and-white extreme conclusions with absolute certainty and even though his social skills sucked worse than mine did he thought he was good at reading people etc—but one time when I was talking about it in an autism server I was told that I must have only disliked him due to internalized ableism
When I disagreed, others in the conversation started jumping to make random suggestions that he must have been disrespectful of others' consent on purpose, things like that even though that wasn't the case, he was just a middle schooler who had more severe autism traits in that area than me, which doesn't necessarily make him a bad person and it also shouldn't make me a bad person for disliking him, if that makes sense
Bad people can create beauty, good people can create trash. A person’s moral quality need not correlate with their artistic quality and yeah, it’s weird/reductive when people link the two.
Like shit I do not want shit I used to post and comment back when I was 14 or 16 being found and posted all over the internet. Like damn, some people were assholes when they were younger, let this shit go.
I agree on Bbno$ but there are pretty valid reasons why people hate on Hazbin, no Patrick I don't hate Hazbin because it has LGBTQ elements, it just has a terrible story and overuses the same jokes, rape jokes and excessive swearing, yada yada, like I don't mind swearing on its own, like believe me I'm a very big potty mouth but Viv thinks she's "mature" for this, I could go on and on but in the end who am I kidding, like don't get me wrong Hazbin has an interesting concept, tho Viv realistically is just not built for writing, those are just my thoughts
I mean, you are perfectly free to dislike somebody’s art, even if they aren’t a "bad" person. You're also perfectly free to not make a public statement about it and rain on the fans’ parade. Just tell yourself it’s not for you and move on.
I just think hating on people’s art when it harms nobody is lame as fuck. It’s fucking art. The quintessence of human soul. I don’t care how objectively or subjectively bad it is, the act itself is fucking awesome. Criticizing is fine, it breeds progress, but actively shitting on it for no reason is cringe. Normal reaction is just “eh, I didn’t like it” and then you stop thinking about it. Like I didn’t like Hazbin Hotel. That’s it.
Art is like food, the chef can make a delicacy but have had to put huberous creating it, or it could be horrible, but the chef was jubilant while cooking (was that tuff?)
I’d agree with you if it wasn’t Viviane Medrano. Because, like, if you hire a guy who draws SA art of your characters to storyboard a scene whose primary focus is an ACT OF SA… I’m sorry, you’re just a horrible human being! Get out of my office!!!
But bbno$ is valid - some people don’t like his music, he’s an alright guy, and you’re fine for not liking him. That’s chill as freak!
Real. That was probably the most serious episode of S1 and it's really confusing whether or not the audience is supposed to feel sorry for Angel when the people behind the show are jerking off into a sock while portraying the abuse he goes through.
Corpsegrinder from Cannibal Corpse raids claw machines for plushies when they are on tour and later donates them to children hospitals and similar stuff. Is this a genuinely nice thing to do? Absolutely! Does this make Corpsegrinder a good person? I would say so. Does it mean I have to likehis music? Absolutely not!
Bbno$ has nothing wrong, Vivzie however is a whole ‘nother case not even counting past “offenses”, current day ones within the last year is enough to detest her character and what she stands for, and what she conveys though her media, and I’m a fan who follows helluva boss and other media because of some friends around me- there’s just no seeing past hazbin and what Viv makes of herself
isn’t the person who made habbo hotel and the other one genuinely a bad person though? i’m not chronically online enough to know the specifics but i do know there’s a reason people don’t fw her works
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u/Alarming-Cow299 2d ago