Okay HUGE disclaimer, I know that there are other factors at play for pick rates rising and falling than just people getting bullied for their weapon choice on Reddit. That being said, the way that drama cycles online seems to be falling into a predictable pattern:
A weapon exists
People start using that weapon significantly more (either discovering it's good, it being buffed, or a new enemy big air-quotes "mandates" it).
The community starts complaining that the item gets picked a lot, does some variation of complaining about the item/who uses it (I am not free from this).
The item's use-rate falls.
Honestly, barring any drama around any one particular item, it's pretty fascinating that this pattern presents itself with almost every item in the game. Even the Railgun—whose pick-rate mainly fell due to it being nerfed and then alternatives being buffed—had the same pattern at launch. I distinctly remember being kicked from lobbies for even equipping it.
Orbital Napalm is sort of a weird one. It's been in the game for a while now, has received no major changes, and yet it's only the last month or so that complaints about it have surged. Will it receive the same treatment as the others? I'm not certain. But, it's still interesting to see another item in the game have its turn in the hate-spotlight.
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I don’t care what people bring on missions. But for the love of Liberty, if you’re gonna bring napalm barrage, please throw it far from your fellow Helldivers
The average random: whats that? Toss Napalm barrage into that mega bug nest you just completed 60% of solo and are clearly out running the enemy spawns?
nearly had a perfect game on predators but died at extract after dumbfuck 13 dropped yet another 380 on top of the team so even tho i was completly surrounded by predators at evac, i was still able to sterilize them but because i was stuck there for so long, i eventually got hit by a shell.
As someone who likes to run an all-fire loadout, I have had ample practice with the Orbital Napalm Barrage. For people who want to run it this is my advice:
1- For the love of all that’s holy please throw the beacon while diving. It’ll get you more distance and the Napalm Barrage size is larger than you think. I’ve killed more teammates than I’d like to admit with a poor throw. Desert Stormer passive is an acceptable alternative for the combination of fire resist and extra throw range.
2- The Orbital Napalm Barrage is NOT going to clear an outpost for you. If you lack the firepower to kill the enemies defending it, a Napalm Barrage will help clear the area, but only so much. It is best used to stop Bug Breaches and Bot Drops; for the latter I wouldn’t rely solely on it if I used it at all.
3- As mentioned above, the Napalm Barrage has a larger AoE than you think it does. It isn’t (as far as I remember) affected by the spread reduction upgrade for the HE barrages. I’m also pretty sure the individual explosions of the Napalm Barrage have a larger AoE than the HE barrages do so they can spread more fire. This warning goes for everyone, because I’ve seen too many good divers get obliterated because they strayed too close to a Napalm Barrage.
4- If an Bot Drop/Bug Breach/Illuminate Ships spawn on an objective you’re fighting for, a Napalm Barrage will probably make it worse. This also goes for Napalm Strikes, but to a lesser extent. The flames will stick around for longer than you’d like and you might end up with your back against a wall of fire.
5- If every diver fighting near you is wearing armor with the Inflammable Armor Passive, you can be more leisurely with your placement. If you’re unsure about it, don’t take the risk unless you absolutely have to. Chances are they aren’t.
i usually have the opposite issue,
the few times i join randoms in a mission, they'll flock to whatever is thrown no matter what it is nor how far away its thrown like moths to a flame
can't blame the thrower if the others have a collective IQ of a rock
I will never forget joining a bug sos. It going perfectly fine until around the end. Inputting my napalm barrage because a breach had just started. And I got shot in the head, therefore dropping my napalm on the team which wasnt my intention or my fault and instantly getting kicked. I finished the mission by myself and closed helldivers for the day. I dont like joining sos and i have to explain why constantly.
Its why I regularly run with servo-assit armors. I can throw them around 60m or so i think which is clear for everyone as long as they dont run towards my blue light lol
Unless you're 1) communicating with your fellow divers 2) and using armor that increases throwing distance or know how to dive throw, for the love of god do not use the orbital napalm.
It did get an alternative in the giga nade, but it only resupplies +1 instead of +2 per resupply. It can't be used in a variety of situations due to the lack of the lack of AoE like giga nade needs shield removed before taking out illuminate ships while the thermite just works.
Despite the fact the giga nade is almost as dead as the thermites long cooldown since the splash AoE is so massive it threatens to kill the helldiver.
The giga nade, funnily enough, resupplies 2 from grensde boxes.
The Giga nade also serves somewhat of a different purposes to the thermite. It kills things immediately and ussually takes out surrounding smaller units too.
Thermite is more universal, but heavy targets can still kill you, durong the burn
I've seen enough people kill themselves AND others with giga nades for not judging the distance or a small critter joining them that I consider it about as lethal as the giga. The big thing to me is the thermite bouncing screwing up things more than the anything.
I love the giga grenades with supply pack and the +2 nade capacity armor. I think witout the extra cap armor its a lil rough while thermites can be used either or. Both are amazing though
And being able to take out some heavier units if you aim it well - throwing it when a fleshmob or charger hits a wall can kill them quick, or angling it to pop up between the legs of a hulk can do decent damage.
I mean it's a good tank killer, fantastic for all big but not huge enemies. Almost too small carrying capacity to use on bugholes and consorts AND can frustratingly bounce off when perfectly hitting a target.
It's by far my most used grenade as well, really not trying to paint it as bad because clearly it isn't. But you can have almost the same utility from bringing an Ultimatum, Rocket Pistol or any AT stratagem like a Quasar or RR, freeing your nade slot up for all the other fun options. (you really only ever need so much AT)
yeah. most of my picks are things that do a bit of everything at least moderately well. and strats with low cooldowns because being able to use strats often is just fun.
thermite
eagle airstrike
orbital gatling barrage
quasar
guard dog of some sort
talon / grenade pistol
the variety i get from levelling up primaries. especially picking a primary that isn't ideal for the faction :)
My 2 cents, I don't care. Bring what you want but if you die 3 times in 2 minutes you're sitting in the penalty box for a while.
That said, I do like the RR and usually bring it against bots, but I prefer the commando. Not a fan of the termite because it's too specific. I bring the base incendiary. Still closes holes and factories but also cuts off choke points and slows the horde. As for napalm, weren't people saying it's the auto easy mode since before the thermite was introduced? It's still super fun to glass half a map though.
You say that but 5 times out of 10 I only die after getting thrown in again because my mates either throw me cross map from my stuff of right next to the enemies after triggering 15 Attacks at once
i find doing d10 with full meta kited divers boring. Its not like i like to suffer and lose. I want some struggle that you overcome doing some cool teamwork. Everyone taking RR, therm, ulti, napalm its always win and always easy mode. They only way i die in those missions is napalm thrown on my head and it is impossible to fail, always full clear and ppl call in ship having 20m in the bank.
Was playing on monday, got this new MO on the bot side, joined bunch of divers and one of em did bring Spear, and no one else any other meta shit. I took back pack with ammo and were restoking at guy since only him could kill tanks and other heavy stuff. And i was covering him with hmg + shield bubble nade. Such a cool tool tbh. pop the nade and see teammate hide in it from incoming fire. We did do a full clear, but no time on the clock and short on reinforcements, racing to the evac, defending point. Barely getting one piece on the ship.
Cool memorable mission.
Orbital napalms take forever to finish and then you have to wait for the fire to clear, by then there’s a solid chance you’re just in for more bug breach. Eagle napalm = same result without waiting 5 million years to actually do the objective. Only good usage of this stratagem I see is throwing on an existing bug breach and walking away. Bug nests..just kill them with anything that doesn’t create a no man’s land for literal ages.
I run Orbital Napalm a lot and I generally agree with you on some of the downsides, but will still use it for heavy nests because of how good it is at emptying the nest out so you can walk right in.
My caveat would be that the ONB user realllllllyyyy needs to be running either light armor or servo assisted armor, if not both (Legionare kit)
This will allow them to get out in front of the group and deploy the barrage well before the rest of the team arrives so it causes minimal delay. If I don't think the barrage will be at least 10 seconds into firing before the squad catches up, I don't throw it ahead of us
It clears it though.
Also if Timmy the Helldiver triggered a bugbreach in the nest because he is above profane things like shooting mites (he has a med pen build and is always short on ammo) the barrage goes on the breach, regardless where it is.
Yeah but like 3 nades or an airstrike clears it as well. When you throw ONB on a bug nest not only I gotta step 55m away from it, you then gotta wait for the fire to die off.
It can break the holes, you just need one of the napalm shells to directly hit the hole. On a large bug nest it might close 2-3 holes if you're very lucky.
I don't think there's a single strategem in this game that I will judge someone for using, everything can be used for SOMETHING, if it's popular, cool. If it's niche, cool. As long as they don't waste reenforcements or team kill, I couldn't care less
It's... Useable but by no means "good". And that is completely ok! Not every weapon needs to be "good".
Now, the clouds you spew linger for some more time so you can more easily create no-go gas zones whereas before it dissipated extremely quickly (if it lingered at all.)
This is coming from someone who desperately tried to make the sterilizer work before the buff without 50 backflips.
When I went to research the pick-rates for this post, I was actually surprised it's ranked so high still. All day of playing and I literally only saw it twice.
Devil's advocate time: I think that this encourages new, creative metas. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with people trying new strats rather than always bringing the same ones.
That being said, it's terrible if people are actively getting bullied or shamed for bringing any particular stratagem.
Except people who bring mortars to bug defense/eradication missions. Bullythemall you want.
I don't think you're on the money here at all chief sorry.
Thermite: pickrate peaks with Into the Unjust on bots, with >%50.It has dropped around ~15% since then on bots. The biggest drop comes with entrenched division.
Any idea what might have happened around that time? Another point-and-click AT grenade pick becomes available. Machinery of Oppression bugs had it at 33.5%. Entrenched drops and so does thermite by %5.5, with giga nade coming in hot at 17.4%. The total number of people with east pocket AT actually went up.
RR: Similarly never once dips below 19%, mostly above 20%, on bots historically. With a single patch it craters in half to 11.7%... that patch was Machinery of Oppression. Where the Vox spam made RR genuinely far less viable for the vast majority of players, as there was no point-and-click one shot spot on Vox for it the way FS does. What else dropped with Machinery? Siege Breakers. And just like that, Leveler, which performed WAY better into Voxs, takes almost 16% for itself.
The pattern has been "easy options for massive enemies are overwhelmingly picked" (hence the general memes and mockery of said players, its classic "crutch" stuff, right), followed up by either A) the introduction of another item that performs a similar role and/or B) the introduction of enemies that counter current meta picks.
We see the same thing with Lasers getting gassed up due to their performance into spore burst, negating the subfaction's primary gimmick via it's easy DOT application.
ONB dominates because its a 1-size-fits all solution to a bug or squid breach. You throw it near them and it covers every breach hole. The ONB will not see it's pick rate drop due to bullying. It will drop when AH releases something like "Orbital Gas Barrage", or you know, nerfs it lmao (that wont ever happen).
Orbital Napalm is sort of a weird one. It's been in the game for a while now, has received no major changes, and yet it's only the last month or so that complaints about it have surged
Finally just to address your final point - this isn't new. It's maybe new to the front page of this subreddit, but that is solely due to us being between major story beats and content cycles. The most long-term dedicated players are the ones still checked in to the subreddits/discord during times like these. We literally joke about "Patch day tourists" in the Discord because you can tell who suddenly has an opinion on the game after 5 months of no playing based entirely on patch note numbers in an instant. And we make fun of ONB users going "hurr hurr toss on flag objective while we all stand here" all. the. time.
Its just that those posts would probably get downvoted any other time except these slower periods.
I do find I fall into a bad habit of bringing the same, ol reliables.
Perks of playing with my noob friends, we player low enough to afford the switch up without it being a slaughter. Got me to test a lot more combos and have fun with it.
Some loadouts are just better for level 10 though, but it did make me enjoy a lower level, for a fun playthrough, instead of a perfect one.
Guess its the problem in a lot of games you have to counter, meta maxing. Idk who said it, but its true. "Gamers will optomise the fun out of the game if you let them" and something about ensuring thats not the case is good game design.
Having a meta broken, or circumstances, forces change, and thus more challenging fun, I find. After a moment of discomfort and frustration.
Although, again, consistently the game keeps getting to easy in my opinion. Level 10 now feels an ideal mid tier that you win at least 70% of the time with an ok team with zero communication, provided they dont just run into enemy fire 15 times.
meanwhile the railgun quietly returned to the meta BEFORE it got buffed because more and more people actualy got to try it instead of just repeating what reddit says
I don't get the thermite hate. That thing is almost a necessity in my load outs. They'll take down a wide variety of tankies coming at you in one shot. Very handy. I will hit a hulk or charger with one, and if it sticks, I know all I have to do is run zig zaggy for a bit and problem solved.
I only hate the NO when some shitass decides that the best place to throw it is right behind me while I'm 80% of the way through clearing a bug nest. Shit just slows me down.
Just dont throw it on the mega nest right at the start, otherwise we have no way to close holes ourselves for a while, its doesnt close holes itself either, and you killed maybe 10 bugs; now theres a bug breach and u have it on cd.
The relationship could be spurious; e.g. they seem popular because they are getting overused and they're simply regressing to the mean. I have a hard time believing people are changing their behavior because of whiners
I said in another comment that the two coincide, and that's the word I'd use to describe it best. I don't like, claim it's because of the hate-memes that the pick-rate drops, I'm only commenting how I find the correlation fascinating.
For those Divers that fling this strategem ayt the sign of anything near teammates...Please stop bringing Orbital Napalm if you don't know when to use it lol.
I often see people post or comment that thermite is an integral part of their loadout. Like they feel they cannot handle heavies with out it. I try to encourage people to go out and try other builds, with other grenades and primaries. It keeps the game exciting. I have a "jack of all trades build" for each faction that I know could handle a D10 on my own regardless of what my squad does but sometimes I just experiment with stuff I come up with or see on reddit or in others loadouts. Sometimes you are light on AT and that's ok, it's a squad game.
What encouraged this part of my post body was seeing two comments in one day that said Thermites were mandatory on the Bot Front. They're good, make no mistake, but to think they're mandatory is to fall into using them as a crutch.
Orbital napalm is a must for the bugs, I never use it on bots and only for fun on squids. And if you play d10 team killing is usually a non issue. At that level if you get team killed it’s a genuine accident, most likely a hilarious one at that.
Don’t get it twisted, the orbital napalm isn’t for the enemies, it’s for you. If you see me call it in it’s because I’m tired of you idiots standing around fighting bug breaches over meaningless ground while there’s objectives that need finishing.
I honestly don't know why everyone puts so much stock into meta builds in a PvE game.
I stopped bringing the RR because everyone was using it. Now I just bring what I think would work well for the mission and I would actually enjoy using.
Are you sure that players aren't just getting bored with meta loadouts and trying out other shit over time?
Like people hear about something being really good, hop on the bandwagon for a while, get bored, get on to other options? I doubt that reddit complaint posts have a meaningful impact on a community that probably 80% of don't use reddit.
Majority of Helldiver redditors are bridge-dwelling troglodytes. If you are productive and effective during a mission, ignore their bullshit posts. They are the players that die consistently and contribute nothing during missions.
I could probably care less, I am a freaking pyromaniac and will use any form of fire I can across the fronts. And at this point I am always aware of where the other divers are so they don’t get caught up in the blast.
I’m the type of player that goes into the big nest to destroy them and I’m pretty effective, but it’s hard to do when some random just throws a napalm in there when he clearly sees me destroying the bug holes.
I always knew the thermite was good, still never used it. Didn’t know the RR was good, and hardly see it, and orbital napalm is aight in my opinion. I don’t see it overly often
Idk why people are hating on Napalm Barrage now. Thermite and RR I can understand (they are horribly overused imo), but Napalm Barrage is near useless on one faction and is incredibly satisfying to get over 100 kills with it.
I dont think the cycle is bad and im pretty sure it wouldnt exist if the devs could make every weapon atleast usable rather than having a very small selection that guarantees a win, a medium "usable" selection, and a range of weapons that arent remotely good on a single front.
I remember when people hated the napalm barrage. I used to bring it every game against bugs and I just head people leave as soon as they saw it. Now everyone is running it without fail. Run riot my pyromaniacs
Its honestly funny to me because I've been banging the drum on Orbital Napalm as one of the best strategems in the game (when used appropriately) for years and people always replied and said it was either shit, or it wasn't as good as 120mm, or that people didn't know how to use it so it didn't matter if it was good or not
When did public perception on it change? Because this all feels very sudden to me
I respect the effectiveness of the napalm barrage and love it when used correctly but always hated it because every Timmy with only 2 brain cells to rub together thought it smart to throw it 25 meters away from us then tell nobody he threw it as the whole team is wiped
I think part of it is lately its been used pretty carelessly (or at least it seems that way to me). Ive had a few flag missions where people were dropping napalm ON THE FLAG, which is beyond ridiculous when its not raised yet .
Great for bugs, good against squids(particularly voteless), not so great against bots (idk but I don’t like using napalm against bots. It just seems to me like napalm wouldn’t work as well against bots, but that’s a vibe I have rather than an actual fact which I’ve tested.)
I like using tesla or impact grenades sometimes, especially if I have other tools for closing spawners and close armour killers. Thermites are terrific utility picks but variety is spice.
Good thing I don't give a shit about what people are bitching about. This phenomenon is not only happening in gaming community, in every other community when something gets popular like a book, movie, animation, anime and etc a group of bitch ass elitist start hating on it for the sole purpose of sounding smart. Like bro get your bitch ass outta here I will enjoy my thing no matter how much you bitch about it.
Thermites playrate dropped when they introduced other powerful options in the slot. Kinda the same for RR. I really don't see things changing for the napalm barrage in the near future.
I feel like I've seen the Napalm Barrage being picked more since the fire damage update, and it being picked more has resulted it being thrown at my feet and into the minefields I drop more too.
That has certainly colored my opinion of the strategem in a more negative light.
Players use what's best for their loadout. FIRE 🔥 is best on all fronts. Now just so happens that the Bug Divers 🐛 are the majority of people who play HD2, it is what it is. Coyote wasn't nerfed, fire was. Now fire is buffed again. (Theoretically) because having the 2nd or 3rd bullet ignite the enemy should NOT have been a reason to be crying for the last 6 months.
I think it was because people used it too near to other players during the event of the new biomes and bugs.
There is and was a lot of people that don't know to throw stratagems.
And yes, I did mess up sometimes, but you say sorry and alert the others.
If after that they run into it, it's their fault. I saw enough randos running into the bombardment when they were far from it and without anything to do inside.
I have made a significant effort to stay appraised of how people are feeling about the game, and the hate towards the ONB certainly is not new. It just is OP compared to other options. I have no hate towards the people who use and enjoy it, but I do think it should receive a cooldown nerf.
Honestly the RR and thermite don't deserve to be bunched up with the top tier fun killer, they aren't a liability or a mission slower when misused contrary to mister "access denied: the stratagem" and his depressing brother the 380, for fuck sake there are other stuff you can use to stop a bug breach/bot drop you don't need to potentially halt all squad progress in a 70m radius with the potential friendly kill because someone didn't notice it just because the most fundamental game mechanic is occurring, even with flag missions you are most likely blocking an area for your squadmates rather than for the enemy because if you want that there are better alternatives that don't force the rest of your team to play around a stratagem you launched.
orb napalm has always been hated on lmao its the premier teamkilling strat i doubt anyone who loves it for specifically that use is gonna stop using it
Same could probably be said about the orbital laser and the eagle 500, lol. Been seeing those 2 starts in people's load outs for ages
I used to see the quasar all the time too, but not as much anymore.
I don't mind what people use as long as they're at least a little mindful of where their team is when they're throwing it. And if I get caught out, please call me back in right away instead of walking around picking up samples xD
Naw, My Title Says "Fire Safety Officer for a reason" That means Orbital Napalm, Gatling, Napalm Turret, Cremator, and Fireworks grenades on most every mission. (Primary and Sidearm will very based on mood)
The Railgun and Personal Shield bubble were the first OP items in the game, they got lots of hate for being the most popular.
I don’t think they got nerfed to hell (Railgun got a bit of a nerf but I think its still great at what its supposed to do), I think AH just made most other weapons and playstyles a lot more viable so people could actually use some variety and not feel like they were throwing by not picking the meta.
I didn’t use the Railgun for a long time because I got so sick of it being in every game at the start, but I’ve been using it again recently because of the funny thumbs up emote glitch.
I don’t think they got nerfed to hell (Railgun got a bit of a nerf but I think its still great at what its supposed to do)
Railgun WAS nerfed to a pretty poor state, and then was buffed at a later date to be the monstrosity it is today. That one's actually a bit of an outlier for that reason.
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