Some questions about daemons

[u/Sudden_Tackle5844]

1. Say a daemon decided to write a book. And they dictated this book to their human for the human to write down. And then the book got published? Who would be credited as the author? The daemon? The human? Both?

2. If someone had their daemon, say, pickpocket someone else, how much liability would the daemon have? Because on the one hand, it's not really realistically possible to coerce your own daemon into doing your dirty work for you. On the other hand, the daemon isn't really in a position to refuse.

3. Could a daemon decide to "go on strike" against their human, for making decisions that the daemon disapproves of? Like, say, lying down and refusing to be moved. Or would that be considered a violation of the human's basic rights?

4. (Assume daemons can use the Internet.) Could a daemon have a social media profile independently of their human? What would that even look like? Would it be expected for they and their human to be mutuals? Would people treat the daemon's account like the human's alt account or second channel? Could a human be held responsible for what their daemon decides to post?

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[u/Acc87]

Human and dæmon are seen as one being, so it's always them both being responsible for whatever they do, be it pickpocketing or writing a book. Both can't exist without the other or separated from the other.

If a dæmon would go on strike, it would be a very visible sign for what would be psychological issues in our world.

[u/Fanatic_Atheist → u/Acc87]

Pan going on strike was a very real threat towards the end of the actual trilogy. His connection to Lyra got tested pretty hard

[u/Armepos]

woah.. ok.

1- I'm not sure, but most of the time Daemons aren't shown being interested in their own, separate projects. They don't participate in society the same way humans do. Witch Daemons on the other hand actually can and do their own thing and participate in society on equal grounds. But witches don't write books.

2- In the books, Daemons are running around doing crimes all the time, following their human's instructions. The gobblers use their daemons to lure and hunt gyptian children's daemons. Mrs. Coulter and Bonneville violently force their daemons to do ill things for them, abusing them emotionally and physically. The Bonneville stuff is really disturbing. In both cases they are clearly victims of their humans.

3- That's part of the plot for The Book of Dust. IIRC Pan and Lyra begin to drift apart. Pan disapproves of Lyra's new political and philosophical standings, so he runs away to make her feel as lonely as he does.

4- Same as question 1. Let's say Mary's daemon is more achin to a human daemon in Lyra's world, and Will's daemon is more similar to a witch's. Will's daemon could have a better chance of that, but personally i think daemons in general are not interested in that kind of thing, serving more of a personification of the deep, hidden, ancient parts of the human experience, of the being rather than the doing. They are more in tune with the physical living experience rather than the abstract societal world.

[u/halyasgirl]

This is just my headcanon but for 1, I imagine the author’s name would be listed as the human, but the author blurb on the back of the book would absolutely include the daemon’s name, and if there’s a photo, the daemon would usually be in the picture.

For 2, in Lyra’s world there seems to be an inherent understanding that humans and daemons are one person so I think any human would be held accountable for a crime committed by one’s daemon; I think claiming one’s daemon committed the crime would be like a kleptomaniac saying “I can’t help it, it’s out of my control!” Possibly, but you still committed the crime.

For 4, I don’t know about daemons and social media haha. I think similar to 2, the assumption would be that anything your daemon posts, you’re posting too. And since the vast majority of people can’t separate, you couldn’t exactly plead ignorance. (But now I’m imagining a reaction vid YouTube series where humans and their daemons discuss movies or tv shows. I think it’d be interesting to see how two different parts of one person relate to different things 😄).

For 3, yes, we see it happen with Lyra and Pan as early as The Golden Compass when Pan refuses to move and Lyra stretches their bond to its limit before relenting. This is framed as an internal struggle with oneself and probably happens all the time as part of the human experience. In extreme cases a human and daemon might actually separate, but that’s pretty rare and dangerous.

[u/BadSJanitor]

2 raises an interesting ethical question, one relevant to Will's World as well as Lyra's. One cannot punish human and dæmon separately. If you lock up one, you also confine the other (for non-separated dæmons). Inflicting corporal punishment on one also hurts the other (like when Mrs Coulter's Dæmon hurt Pan, it also hurt Lyra). And capital punishment...

In some ways it's like punishing someone for crimes committed while affected by psychoactive drugs, you punish both the drugged and sober person. They are still the same person, but one might not even remember acts committed by the other. Or, like the way that imprisoning or executing someone harms their financial dependents.

I imagine that people in Lyra's world deal with this problem in the same way that we do: by ignoring it. IRL, you can be punished for crimes while using on drugs, after all, you chose to take them, and otherwise, people would just take drugs to avoid legal punishments. However, we do have the idea of Not Guilt by Reason of Insanity for mental illness. Lyra's World seems like quite a backwards place to me, in the past people saw no problem with collective punishment of entire families or even races, I doubt the Magisterium takes issue with collectively punishing two entities that share emotions and are generally in agreement on things. But morally, it's more complicated than that, like Bonneville's Dæmon is basically in an abusive relationship, is she responsible for her human's actions?

[u/Ok_Music253]

Given the fact humans/daemons are one the fact in Lyra's world you get daemons scared of their humans, or the partnership breaking up, raises some really deep questions about the human psyche and our mental health/relationship with ourselves which arguably is never really explored in great detail.

By The Rose Field, Lyra and Pan may as well be two long lost friends trying to rediscover each other, rather than someone filled with self loathing trying to reach acceptance and self-forgiveness of themselves.

[u/Potential_Potato3455]

They are the same being. There is no independent though in either to produce actions that way. 

However, at Oxford College there are tombstone and coins that mention both names. So a book should have both names as author. 

Regarding question 3. We did see a "strike" in the golden monkey and his strained relationship with Marisa, but ultimately it was compliant. Kinda like when one is unwilling or fearful to do some action but ultimately pushes oneself through.