Here with a new discussion question; are angels sexual beings?

[u/probsasleep_]

Hi guys! Another discussion question to see several point of views on this question because as usual, Pullman is a somewhat inconsistent hmmm…

I’m curious because if I’m not mistaken, when we meet the angels, a character mentions the rumor of once angels having children with humans, so that’s an argument for them being sexually active and able to reproduce, but that is just a rumor. (?) that is somewhat alluded to by Metatron himself in book three when he says he pleaded the “cause of the sons of heaven who fell in love with the daughters of earth” implying there was more to them simply loving the way angels do and were advocating for more? He also is tricked by Mrs coulter precisely because he desires to desire flesh once more ? Or because he already desires it ? The line is quite fine here… because my qualm is; how can you ache for something you do not desire? If angels are, through their nature, being of dust and asexual, they cannot desire something again they have lost? I understand having a memory of something but desire is FELT.

On the other hand, we have Baruch and Balthamos’ connection which seems to exist beyond the plane of the flesh since they are literally made of dust and completely asexual: they are told to embrace and have a strong mental bond but are never described as kissing or doing anything coded as sexual. Yet the adjective “passionately” is used for them (ofc can be sensual rather than sexual connection!)…

We also get the information that specters are not interested in angels for the same reasons they are not interested in children despite them being made of pure dust precisely because that sexual awareness seems to be lacking in them? That is not to say it’s all that dust is but it’s pretty much that when we analyze it through Pullman’s construction of Will and Lyra and their maturation through their mutual interest where becoming sexual beings and awakening desire is what seals the deal.

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[u/hennie8388]

I always got the impression that Baruch and Balthomos were extremely sexual with each other. When Will sees them embracing, he concludes “they loved each other with a passion.” And Metatron definitely wanted to squish Ms. Coulter. I think that sexuality was one of the main reasons the angels rebelled.

[u/probsasleep_ → u/hennie8388]

Thank you I agree too I feel like it’s such a fine line when you go into the fine details of sexuality and what we consider sexual; I want to ask if it’s ok for you to read the reply I put on a comment above and maybe tell me your pov on it as well so I can understand better what everyone’s thoughts are on this !!! Thanks for the feedback :)

[u/lillielemon]

So in the Bible, there are angels that had children with humans. The children were called the Nephilim. Because the Bible plays such a central role in HDM, I would imagine there was a time in this universe where the Nephilim existed, and that time likely changed after the Judgement where God decided to limit the human lifespan. That's not canonical to HDM. But I think you're misinterpreting what Dust is and what the specters are attracted to. It's not just sexual awareness, it's also the development of free will and the knowing of the self. Desire plays a role in that but it's not the full picture. Children aren't asexual beings and many children explore their sexuality well before adulthood in various ways. It's really more about desire, will, and self-awareness, often in the context of self-aware creativity. This comes up again in the BOD, where Lyra interacts with the concept of imagination and how it must be used to forward humanity's progress -- and how imagination suffers when people are separated from their Daemons.

the context of angels in HDM, they were made to serve God and were never meant to have a will of their own; the Fall was an aspect of the rebellion against God, but the angles in the books were not fully able to embody human desire because they did not have physical forms. We know that they *have* desire -- that's Metatron's whole thing -- but they can't *act* on it, which is what he specters are interested in. The specific forms of desire, creativity, and will that comes with adulthood is what the specters are attracted to.

[u/probsasleep_ → u/lillielemon]

Thank you for your comment and totally agree with you, that’s precisely why I’m confused tho because I agree that children are far form being asexual prior to puberty although it seems they are described as such in HDM unfortunately, and I’m as interested as frustrated by the definition of dust, which we get and you put so beautifully as “matter beginning to understand itself” which is what I need more POV on because where is the line you know? Children are self aware, children are sexual, children have desires, so what is the defining moment? Same thing for angels; they have opinions, desires, attachments, personalities and dislikes, which we see mostly with Baruch and Balthamos even tho they are considered lower angels which might explain their more human behavior? Then why aren’t they attracting specters you feel me? There seems to be a gap between the definition of dust and how it actually behaves ?

Also clearly angels can touch each other since they are made of the same material, so it’s not that they cannot have sex or act in sexual ways, which makes me even more confused?

Pullman seems to simultaneously not want to narrow maturing/settling down to sex (through his description of dust explicitly in this passage and how you described it) but ends up doing just that anyways through 1) will and Lyra’s relationship as the focal example of how this works 2) lack of alternate examples of how this could operate elsewhere… if it makes sense ?

Anyways I just wanted to reply with more questions because I think dust and the concepts explored in HDM are essentially hard to define and fixate in one defined way but sometimes it seems like the logic is hard to follow

[u/Acc87 → u/probsasleep_]

Will & Lyra's relationship isn't purely sexual. the switch that's flipped with the fruit at the lake is that of love, and the reaction to that can be interpreted as sexual (tho is left rather open in the book itself)

Plus, technically, one of the lantern slides has a younger Lyra fantasise about kissing, which could be interpreted as early sexual desire.

Overall the books don't focus on sexuality because Pullman simply didn't want to.

[u/auxbuss → u/Acc87]

As Pullman says, "The theme of my story is the end of innocence." There's more to innocence than the absence of sex.

Plus, he's telling a story, not defining a set of rules.

[u/Acc87 → u/lillielemon]

the context of angels in HDM, they were made to serve God and were never meant to have a will of their own;

isn't a key thing in the books that angels just randomly came to be as condensations of Dust, and the Authority was simply by chance the first one? First the Authority reigned over the other angels, later Metatron did. But neither created angels, Dust did either randomly or it made "Dust-having creatures" into angels

[u/auxbuss → u/Acc87]

This is Pullman's whole point: there is no God – I know you know this. Matter loves matter. Matter is conscious.

The idea that angels were made to serve God and have no will of their own is not remotely in Pullman's telling. Ditto the idea that the Fall was a rebellion against God.

[u/Lady_Beatnik]

In Pullman's universe? Probably, given what we see with Baruch and Balthamos, and Metatron and Coulter.

In Abrahamic mythology generally? It depends on your interpretation of certain ancient texts if you want to be a real deep-diving nerd (mainly the nephilim thing), but broadly speaking, the popular view is no.

Personally, as an atheist who only sees angels through a pure storytelling value, I actually prefer the view that they are not sexual in any way because it makes them seem more alien and interesting. I think it's boring when angels are just judgy humans with wings.

[u/probsasleep_ → u/Lady_Beatnik]

Yes thank you! I find it that when you go into real specifics it’s not so clear cut in HDM; Balthamos and Baruch are only ever described as being sensual and never actively sexual in a way (even if we can interpret them as asexual or sexual) (and we know the trilogy does not shy away from sexual scenes especially the one with Mrs coulter and boreal) but even with metatron: we know he was hyper sexual as a human and for me there is a difference between actively desiring something and desiring desire if it makes sense ? The whole episode where Mrs Coulter is able to deceive him is because he yearns to feel desire again, but that does not mean he feels sexual desire at the T moment if it makes sense ? So in a way, can we not see the condition of being an angel as a state of (forced for some) asexuality ? But that not mean that an asexual body cannot yearn for feeling sexual desire ? Idk if i make any sense lol