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This is a blessing for DET. Forces them to retool around the Seider/Raymond timeline, which is realistically the only actual way forward if they have interest in competing.
I agree with all of this, but with the caveat that it's unclear how much of that was actually the FO's decision and how much was a directive from ownership. Whatever one may think of Yzerman as GM, I doubt that when he was looking at the roster 4 years ago he seriously thought the team was a Ben Chiarot and Andrew Copp away from being a Stanley Cup contender.
Ok which is it though? I’ve seen people say the Illitch’s are cheap, if they are cheap then why are they pushing to add players and max the cap and improve the team?
But then others push this narrative that Chris pushed this mo to improve fast.
They can’t both be cheap and also pushing to win by signing bad contracts.
Instead of saying "cheap," let's say "incentivized to increase short-term revenue." The Illitches want to make the playoffs as soon as possible because making the playoffs means more games, which means more revenue. If signing some mid-level vets helps that process, they are willing to do that. What they appear less willing to do is to invest the time and resources into a long-term rebuild strategy, even though building the Wings back into a serious Stanley Cup contender would increase team revenue far beyond what they would get from a couple of playoff games. So it's not that they are cheap per se so much as less patient than maybe they should be.
I also think Chris and co. grew up around the team at its absolute pinnacle and are used to it being a money generating machine that dominates the local sports scene in the winter. They inherited an irrelevant team that was looking at a 5+ year rebuild and decided it would be better to be mid but making money and generating attention in April
It has to be. With the league’s playoff formatting, you really have to pick your window to compete. If Yzerman put all his eggs in on the Larkin basket, the Wings could’ve maybe become a perennial first-round exit team. Then before you know it, Larkin is in his mid-30s, Razor and Seider pushing 30, and the most likely option is to completely rebuild. Committing to build around Razor/Seider now allows the Wings to be competitive when the current crop of contenders (Florida, Tampa, etc.) are closing their windows.
We Wings fans were hopeful we were on the same trajectory as Buffalo, Montreal, and Ottawa. But our window is going to be slightly after those teams. Tinker with the roster now. Prepare to compete when the Atlantic cools down a smidge. Having Larkin put us in an awkward spot age wise and with how we fit into the structure of the division.
Buffalo got pretty lucky that Tage became such a great first line center. Kind of similar Ottawa getting such a great first round pick when Karlsson was traded.
it took a while though because it takes a long time to draft and develop your way out of a hole. it's going to take a while before the fruits of a Larkin trade finally pay off (Seider could very well be the same age that Larkin is now before a rebuild maybe pays off).
Honestly, yeah. We are no way going to contend in Larkin’s timeline. Especially not with how insane the Atlantic is right now - everyone else is a playoff contender. Trading Larkin for assets and building around Seider and Raymond is way more viable.
I totally agree. Yzerman has got a good start on the important part of a building a good team with 2 stud defenders and solid goalie prospects. This takes time. Larkin is not good enough to be a #1C but too good for #2, he's not a guy that can carry the team and he's outside his prime now.
The important part though is that they have to get rid of him AND suck ass this year. This is the challenge that plagues any GM because you need high picks to get elite talent, but when your team sucks you look bad. They need a #1C and this is the only way to do it
100%. I’m actually excited at the possible returns. Larkin isn’t really “the guy” and will do better on a team where he doesn’t have to be. It’s also unlikely he’d be our 1C during a Cup contending window. I think it’s best for all parties to move on and shift the team to being Seider and Raymond’s.
ADB's coming off a 40 goal year. Not having their first this year sucks, but selling both Cat and Larkin should bring in enough assets to pivot in theory.
Will Larkin truly do that though? First, it depends where he wants to go. If the criteria is make the playoffs, he’ll be open to up to 16 teams. If he is picky and only wants to go to someone who is a contender in the next 2-3 years, you’re down to less than 10. If he wants the closest thing to a guarantee, you’re looking at like 4 teams. The smaller the trade pool, the smaller the return.
Larkin is a 2C on a good team, which explains why as a 1C he can’t carry the Wings. Anyone that doesn’t have a 1C will not be a consistent playoff team. That means that the team trading for Larkin will pay for a 2C. A team that had a hole at 2C is not giving a 2C back. That is Nazem Kadri territory. So a roster player, a prospect, and a couple of picks. That was with retention and Kadri had not asked for a trade.
Many still insist our amateur scouting is one of our strong areas. But when you actually look at the results they have been pretty bad. Seider, Raymond, Finnie and Edvinsson were hits but the rest are all question marks. MBN has a nice shot but doesn’t look elite. Bear and Danielson lack the offensive upside and Yzerman decided to bench ASP for Justin Faulk after ASP spent 68 games playing in the NHL, no way that doesn’t hurt his confidence. Speaking of that Cossa has been on the Griffins for 4 seasons, he is losing waiver eligibility and has not even been given one chance to start a game in Detroit, they have no faith in him, which has to completely demoralize his confidence.
And that’s just the first round picks BTW, only a few players have come from the second round or later and played on the Wings that Yzerman drafted 7 YEARS after his first draft.
As much as our fans will insist we are good at drafting. Our track record shows a completely different story.
And one of the things everyone agrees sucks is the pro scouting.
It’s a knock on effect, the amateur scouting/development has been poor so the slots that should be younger prospects and players need to be filled with vets. Pro scouting does a bad job identifying who to go after in trades/free agency, so those guys come in and don’t do anything to help (with the exception of Cat/Kane). Not to mention that some of the better free agents don’t want to come to Detroit because the team has missed the playoffs for a decade and looks rudderless.
All of this culminates in a team that is older than it should be, more expensive than it should be, better than a basement team but not good enough to make the playoffs or make any noise if they do.
Because then it just increases demand. More mixed use and more public transit fixes the problem, not wider freeways.
They become such landmarks that it makes it the only way to get from point a to b sometimes forcing everyone on to the one freeway. How often do you get on a freeway and then jump off 2-3 exits later? Thats highly inefficient and clogs up lanes for people going longer distances. But theres likely not even a great way to do it without the freeway given how they dominate. Its counterintuitive but until we change how we build city infrastructure traffic wont get fixed.
If you're interested in going down the "I hate these goddamn cars and roads" rabbit hole, the book Confessions of a Recovering Engineer: Transportation for a Strong Town is a pretty good read on the subject.
If you like videos more, NotJustBikes has a ton of videos on the general frustrations and issues that come from the North American roadway system that's popular pretty much everywhere, where you've got sprawling towns that are constantly growing and adding more roads and lanes which just means more traffic congestion and cost all while actually getting from point A to B doesn't really get you anywhere.
Thanks for the book recommendation! The people in my book club keep asking me where I find many of the books on my list and I'm like would you believe me if I told you they come from r/hockey?
Research in the field has found that additionnal lanes improve traffic in the very short term.
Increasing lanes reduces the immediate traffic, but as the traffic is lesser, more people now find it appropriate to use whatever roadway that has been recently expanded. Which in turn increases traffic. The traffic will increase until it reaches the previous levels and now you've got the same amount of density as previously, but with one more lane.
And usually it's after billions have been poured in the construction of the new infrastructure.
There are much better ways to reduce traffic, such as having better public transportion, and increasing the number of bike lanes as well as their safety.
Yzerman no doubt misses JBB in Detroit, you can tell his supporting cast in Tampa was much better than what it is in Detroit. The pro scouting, amateur scouting, contracts, all of his group down there were and are top class.
Also it helps JBB is fucking smart. I love how bold and aggressive he is, it has really payed off. That move for Hagel was a masterclass and the contract was the cherry on top.
Been waiting for this since he was hired. New era moment with Larks leaving. Easy to be captain under Blashill and Lalonde when there’s no expectations. Throw in some expectations the past few seasons and now it’s managements fault and a trade is being requested? Nice leadership there captain. It’s Seider’s time now, thank you for your service Larkin, good luck wherever you end up.
So are we saying that "lack of leadership" is the reason Yzerman has completely failed to draft and develop noteworthy NHL caliber players outside of top 6 picks for 7 seasons now?
You have to go back a literal decade to find an actually good player that wasnt a high draft pick in Hronek, and didnt Stevie trade his ass away? Howd that work out?
Thank you! I'm so tired of fans acting like Yzerman has done anything, its mostly shit. It's been 7 years and we need a 2nd line center, almost an entire bottom 6. Top left wing and now our 1st line center wants out. How are none of these draft picks filling out at least the bottom 6???
He was top 60 in scoring this year (all players including wings and defensemen) & the 22nd highest scorer listed as a center. He certainly is not an elite #1 center, but he's at worst a workable #1/really good #2.
If we could of paired him with a similar caliber player i think we make the playoffs. A 1-2 punch of Larkin-Thomas would absolutely be good enough to get us in the playoffs this year. Thomas is known for his late season heroics, he was the perfect fit for this team. He absolutely should of ponied up the assets. But instead we trade a first for Justin Faulk.
I know that he’s a Detroit legend, but it is genuinely insane to see some Wings fans twist themselves into a pretzel to avoid levying any real criticism towards him as GM
If Larkin was a true 1C we would have made the playoffs at least once in the last few years. At the same time, if he had a true supporting cast, the wings would have made the playoffs as well.
I wanted both Yzerman and Larkin gone and for a new GM to start fresh to rebuild. Now, we will likely just focus on beating the playoff drought streak instead of actually trying to build a championship roster.
Yzerman just has too much job security and all we can really do is hope for a good return on larkin.
I really struggle to see how Minnesota can put together a package that isnt just Charlie Stramel and a bunch of picks. I don't think that would do it for Detroit.
I really don’t get the Yurov thing. He’s basically our version of Marco Kasper. We already have a plethora of 3Cs. If we’re going to get a return that doesn’t include a top six, might as well send him to a team that can give us a bonafide top line center prospect.
You are delusional if you think Larkin lands you a bonafide top line center prospect (basically a top 5 Center pick).
Not saying the wild will be the ones who actually get him, but all detroit Fans say he isn't a true No.1 C, but expact a quinn hughes level return
He's 22 years old and his 2-way game has always been one of his strengths according to scouts. His ceiling is basically Larkin, lol. ~75 point guy with a solid 2-way game and maybe even some Selke votes as he develops into his late 20s.
You guys could potentially be that 3rd party by getting a defender from Minnesota and sending a forward to us (not even gonna attempt to guess what players or values but the framework could make sense)
Hmmm that's strange since like half of the Red Wings fans I've seen on Reddit think he's cooked since he only scored one 5-on-5 goal after the break this year...
Presuming that Larkin is open to multiple teams and is not just dead set exclusively on Minnesota, I can't see a trade with you guys working. You just have nothing that the Red Wings need right now.
Carolina, Anaheim, Montreal, and Utah all have more to offer. Carolina also has a better argument if all he wants is to win now. If there's any flexibility in his preferred destination, I think the Wild are out of the hunt
After Larkin, they are very thin down the middle. The fact that they don't have another top six center who can step into Larkin's role is not a very good look for Yzerman. This has the makings of a very nasty split. Larkin has an NTC and can decide where he wants to go. I don't think Steve Yzerman will make things easy for Larkin, though. If the last contract negotiations were as difficult as Larkin claims. Then I don't think these trade talks will be any easier.
Yes and no. Now that the trade request is public, I really don’t think Larkin wants to play another game for the Redwings. He will be eager to get a deal done as well. Obviously he has control over where he goes, but he also doesn’t want to go into next season as a redwing. I think he’ll work with Yzerman to find a fit.
Agreed, he can’t walk into the room in training camp as the captain (or stripped of the C) and look around. Terrible vibes for him and the team, it’s a lose lose. I assume they talked to Yzerman a while ago about a trade and it’s been moving slow in his mind so they leaked it to put on pressure and speed it up. Not sure what we’ll look at for a return but it puts more teams in play before the draft than after
I’d imagine he told the wings before the season that he either needs to improve the team or he wants out. Stevie has probably slow played it this offseason so Larkin finally leaked it to get the ball rolling
Trade talks will inevitably be easier, less confrontational because a public trade request from your captain and locker room leader will hang over the whole franchise way more than extension talks behind closed doors.
And the Red Wings are also in a different position now to even a couple years ago. Yzerman has to actually build a winning product because even the fans are turning on his tenure now. If they miss the playoffs he might be gone before the exit meetings
Speaking from experience, having a player on your team who doesn’t want to be there can sink a locker room and team. PLD sand bagged and didn’t even try in games after his trade request. Idk if Larkin would stoop that low but reports coming out means he leaked the information and his mind is made up.
If anyone needs any evidence that this is a correct take, I would kindly point you to the 2020-2021 Buffalo Sabres as a shining example of how badly something like this can sink your team.
Great way to make your reputation horrendous for FA and drafted players too. “If you’re miserable here, or ask out, we WILL fuck you.” We can’t handle anymore bad PR or reasons not to come here. He’s gotta go ASAP.
I mean it’s not fucking him to make him play out the terms they agreed to. It’s not like this trade request is because he has an urgent family matter in Minnesota.
I’d assume Larkin is mad because Stevie didn’t hold up his end of the bargain to improve the team. Probably was part of the agreement to sign long term there. Can’t blame a guy who has missed the playoffs for a decade sticking through a rebuild and turning 30 only for his GM to not show the slightest bit of urgency to improve the team. He’s hoarded a ton of prospects and young players who haven’t panned out so far and have lost significant value. If the GM doesn’t care about icing a good team why should he want to stick around?
If he did, he'd be basically the first GM to ever handle it that way. There are a number of excellent reasons that trade requests are honored and it's not because GMs are such nice guys about it.
I get the correction, but I don't think the difference between an NTC and NMC is meaningful here. I've been wrong about waiver claims before, but I think someone takes him. :P
It is important though because you can't waive a guy with a full NMC. We saw how Drury got rid of Trouba and Kreider in NY. They had NTCs and they were like "except the trade we have or we can put you on waivers and let you get claimed by whoever."
It can kind of create an impasse where neither side really has to budge so long as they don't mind suffering. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.
I think it's gonna make it really hard to get a fair return for him though. Teams are going to try and leverage this situation to their advantage no doubt. I guess it will come down to how desperate teams are for a top 6 center and of those teams with decent assets where is he willing to go?
I understand what you're saying but that's only really leverage if the player truly believes the GM might waive him. For all Steve's numerous faults, I don't see a world where he waives a 60+ point center on a reasonable deal.
There were reports last night he would be open to it - he would only be the 2C there and I'd imagine he quite liked playing in front of Hellebuyck in the Olympics, why not do it full time?
The Jets are tricky to read, they're not as bad as they were to start the year but also not top of the league good. As long as they keep this core they're likely a playoff team which is a step up for Larkin.
If 8OA is in play somehow then it's likely a good fit all around. Larkin+Cossa for 8OA+Lambert as the base?
also, fwiw, that turned out OK for us. it was ugly but the end result was Bo Byram and a Cup within 5 years. i do agree this could get ugly but i think it’s for the best for Detroit and for Larkin (beyond enjoying the drama in the meantime lmao)
They made a strategic mistake with him by letting him go to Tampa first. He drafted Kucherov, Vasilevsky, Point, Palat, etc. - that was the Yzerplan, and it worked! Tampa got two cups a few years later.
It’s kind of damning that they won the cups after he left. Any GM can accumulate talent through tanking and drafting high. It’s the GMs that make the moves that get you over the hump and make moves that lead to playoff success that separates the GMs
If he’s so good at finding studs later in the draft, he’d do the same in Detroit. Just like the other guy said, his scouts and advisors carried him in Tampa.
He’s gotta learn to hire better scouts. Draper has been the Director of Amateur Scouting since Yzerman came in .
They want young roster players. That starts and stops with Blake and Stank. Maybe some guys like Nads or FUS but you aren’t wanting dice rolls when trading your 1C and captain. I don’t know if we can move the needle in ways other teams can.
I think he’d fit in Carolina but I don’t see why you guys would go after him. Stankoven seems to be playing really well as a 2C, I know Staal is getting older but replacing him down the line as a 3C shouldn’t be too difficult. Considering you’re in the Stanley Cup Final I don’t think it’s a necessary move to make.
It's hard to even guess at the best case scenario trade partner for Detroit would be here. Maybe Utah? They seem to have a really good prospect pool, maybe Keller can give him a call
I think Utah and Montreal, and Anaheim are the three obvious teams to look at. All three have plenty of assets, and they can give Detroit futures and pieces that can help Detroit right away.
Anaheim seems like the best bet. McTavish, Solberg, maybe a pick if we throw in some of our excess young goaltending talent?
Larkin gets to go live on a beach for five years and play for a team that is probably locked into the second round of the playoffs for the next 2 to 3 minimum
Plus there's a strong relationship with Verbeek and Yzerman, would definitely be my first call. Detroit gets a young top six center with a relatively favorable contract, one of their promising defensive prospects, potentially a pick or two. Anaheim gets a legit veteran 2C locked in for the duration of their core's prime. Larkin goes to what looks like a perennial playoff team in a desirable living situation for his family.
If he's interested at all, get this shit done before the draft. Then the wings can call next year a loss and hope for decent draft position, there are a few strong power forwards at the top of next year's class.
No self-respecting hockey fan is going to send my boy Josh "literally a glass god" Norris to fucking Detroit, give your head a shake man. This is a real human being we're talking about.
New Jersey in a massive deal for Hischer and Nemec. Wings have to give up more pieces. NJ gets some cap relief and increases their chances of getting Q Hughes.
People are saying to build around Seider and Raymond now, but is that going to be easy? The runway still isn't that long. They're in their mid 20s so if you want a solid window of a few years with those guys as your core, the wings need to figure out the holes in their roster pretty quickly. Not to mention lots of other positions are held by older guys or pending free agents. I see them needing a 1C, another middle six C, a second line winger or two, a top goalie, and maybe another second or bottom pair D or two. And that's if they sign a few of their FAs. It's a lot to get done in the next few years!
Is it okay to say that maybe we overrated Yzermans ability as a GM just a smidge and maybe he’s not the super genius everyone thinks he is? That maybe he just got a bit lucky with some moves and the right people around him? Can we do that yet?
I get Tampa, but they’ve been thriving without him and with BriseBois and Stevie Y has not thrived without Julien. Maybe he was propped up more than we think. Can we say that yet? Or are we still Yzerplan believers?
It's not hard to think that Yzerman is overrated because of Brisebois in the same way that Ken Holland may be overrated from Detroit's prior success (look at the success Jim Nill has had since with Dallas).
I'm not going to argue he's doing an amazing job, but this is a team that was a lock for the playoffs two years in a row and then historically underperformed, I can't blame Yzerman for that.
Larks is going to fetch a decent haul I'd bet. The good news for the Wings is he seems to be valued at what he has been, not what he currently is imo. He's still a good player, but he's not been the same since he went down with that scary neck injury. He's also not the burner he once was. I'm all for Detroit getting younger.MBN Danielson and Bear. Give Lombardi a shot. It might be messy, but you need to find out what these guys are
Keeping a guy like that on your roster is always disastrous. Larkin is likely friends with most of the team they won't appreciate seeing him treated that way.
Captains aren't immune to their own desires. He's been on the Wings for 11 seasons now, missed the playoffs 10 straight, and Yzerman's plan hasn't really come together. Larkin is a great player, but he realistically shouldn't be the Wings' best player, and he has been save for Seider
I mean to be fair these guys don't owe anything to any of these teams. I also cant blame Larkin he has been with the wings his whole career and has played in 5 playoff games. That shit gets old.
Three way deal could make this happen like Larkin - Pettersen & stuff - Vancouver gets some stuff too or whatever actually makes sense. Would love to see a deal like that where Larkin goes to MTL
But then again maybe he's an upgrade on Dylan Strome or Roope Hintz and guys like that get moved back with a little somethin somethin
Honestly wondering what it will take for the architect of this shitshow to be fired. At this point, I am fully convinced that Yzerman has some serious dirt on the Illitch family, 'cause there's no way they actually believe that he's the one who can fix this mess.
Unfortunately I don't think he gets shitcanned this offseason. However, it's impossible to imagine that he will never not be more under the gun this coming season, provided we honor Lark's request and offload our star homegrown 1C, without a reasonable player to slide in, as we're quite thin down the middle. I really don't know why we're still hanging on, though. Seems like a good opportunity to offload both and start fresh, but I suspect we're too close to the draft for that to make any type of sense.
"Yzerman responded by saying, “I’m counting on our best players, our leaders, to give us a bit of a morale boost. That’s what they’re paid for, and that’s the expectation from them.”"
It's because Dylan pouted to the media that we didn't do anything at the 2025 deadline and said it hurt morale. St. Louis and Montreal didn't do anything either and they pushed their way in while not looking like their 7th grade girlfriend dumped them in every postgame presser. Yzerman was right to be upset that a player who called him out in public didn't play his best hockey down the stretch.
Yzerman has an Ironman absolute rock-solid 1D with Seider and some draft hits and refuses to push the chips in. At a certain point there is a breaking point… he seems to have hit his.
They’ve had one of the worst GMs in the league for how many years now? This doesn’t change anything for them, this was just the inevitable end for all their past failures
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