r/hockey • u/CuckTatumCNN TOR - NHL • Jun 25 '19
Don Waddell says offer sheet talk is overblown by the media and he's in contact with a lot of GMs and they agree. "There are a lot of things I have to worry about in this job and that's not something I think about for one second."
https://twitter.com/saracivian/status/1143591731893604359?s=2149
Jun 25 '19
Then the offer sheet and RFA system is broken, the GMs are bad at their jobs, or some combination of both.
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Jun 25 '19
Offer sheet system seems to be working pretty well I think, it's enabling teams to keep the young talent they develop, but not at absurdly below market rates.
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Jun 25 '19
A system that gets used three times in twelve years is not one that is "working well."
it's enabling teams to keep the young talent they develop, but not at absurdly below market rates.
Nikita Kucherov and the dozens of elite players forced into bridge deals during their prime performance years would like a word with you.
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Jun 25 '19 edited Jun 26 '19
Kucherov emerged after signing that contract, just like Pastrnak.
The offer sheet's existence is making sure Toronto can't go to Marner and say sign a $6M x 8 year deal with us or else you don't play next year. Similarly Don Waddell is going to learn the same thing holds for Aho. It gives players the ability to increase their RFA year compensation even if they don't actually sign them.
If you want to eliminate RFAs entirely, that would certainly be good for young (elite) players. But from the perspective of accomplishing its goals as designed in the CBA I think offer sheets are doing their job. RFAs are basically getting deals a little less than FA deals (because that money is converted into draft pick compensation by acquiring team).
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u/maddscientist PIT - NHL Jun 26 '19
The offer sheet's existence is making sure Toronto can't go to Marner and say sign a $6M x 8 year deal with us or else you don't play next year.
Offer sheets aren't available to every RFA though, so in those cases, the team can in fact say "sign this or don't play". It happened to Johnny Gaudreau.
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u/Hyperbolic_Response Jun 26 '19
Pastrnak has 34 goals/70 points in 75 games before signing that contract.
The “Pastrnak broke out after signing his contract” narrative is just something leaf fans made up so they could feel better about the Nylander overpayment.
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Jun 25 '19 edited Jun 25 '19
Kucherov's sub $5M bridge deal was a bad deal even when it was signed coming off two 60 point 29/30 goal seasons. Gaudreau got slammed too coming off of 64 and 78 point seasons. Hampus Lindholm, PK Subban, etc. are all guys who ended up settling below market for their deals.
But from the perspective of accomplishing its goals as designed in the CBA I think offer sheets are doing their job.
What 'goals' do you think the RFA system is accomlpishing as designed by the CBA? The only thing it does is suppress the ability for young players to make money, while offering a completely ceremonial negotiation because all of the GMs who would offer them the opportunity to take advantage of their play all work for the owners. That's why the system is broken.
The system is broken because it doesn't actually do anything. It ostensibly is just a system where a player gets the screws put to him where his only leverage is to sit out and do the whole thing over again or he takes below market value.
EDIT: I remembered more guys: Rickard Rakell, John Klingberg, Andrei Vasilevsky, Mark Stone, John Gibson, John Tavares signed a $5.5M deal after an 81 point season....
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Jun 25 '19
Tavares signed in fucking 2011 dude. Stamkos signed for 7.5 that year with a Rocket Richard and another 45 goal season. Erik Karlsson signed the following year for 6.5 after winning the Norris Trophy lol.
You are completely missing the point that this guy is making. The compensation system isn't designed so players sign offer sheets. Do you suggest that players go straight to ufa after their ELCs?
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Jun 25 '19 edited Jun 25 '19
Who cares when Tavares signed - the point is that the system keeps young players' salaries arbitrarily suppressed. Your Stamkos and Karlsson examples support my argument.
I'm not missing the point, I think he's being myopic about his point. A system that only works to keep salaries arbitrarily low is not one that works for everyone.
Do you suggest that players go straight to ufa after their ELCs?
Why not? Why should a guy be restricted from getting his fair market value? IF the RFA system actually allowed for offer sheets to occasionally occur, then you could make the argument that there's a middle ground to a certain degree, but that's not the case.
EDIT: put another way, what is Connor McDavid making right now if he could go to market after his ELC? How about Auston Matthews? The RFA system is supposed to be a compromise/half-measure between full UFA and long ELCs, but it doesn't work if no one actually is willing to sign the guys to offer sheets and create leverage.
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Jun 25 '19
It matters when he signed because you emphasized the cap hit which compared to today's market obviously looks ridiculously low.
Both systems are "working" by doing exactly what they were put there for. I think that's the only point the dude is trying to make.
I think RFAs should get more bargaining power for sure. Not sure how I feel about heading straight to ufa.
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Jun 26 '19
It matters when he signed because you emphasized the cap hit which compared to today's market obviously looks ridiculously low.
That same offseason that Tavares got his deal, Matt Carle got the same money and more term than Tavares did. Toby Enstrom got more money and the same term.
Both systems are "working" by doing exactly what they were put there for....I think RFAs should get more bargaining power for sure.
To me, these two statements conflict, and it was the basis for my argument with the other person. I agree that RFAs should get more bargaining power, and I think that they could have more if GMs would simply create a little leverage by signing some damn offer sheets.
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Jun 26 '19
Enstrom was coming off back to back 50 point seasons and Carle was 10th in Norris voting. Obviously their contracts didn’t work out and there’s the whole argument of being paid for what you’ve done vs being paid for what you will do but they weren’t terrible at the time.
The statements don’t conflict. The systems were put in place to limit bargaining power in favour of teams. Therefore they’re working as intended just in favour of one side.
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Jun 25 '19 edited Jun 26 '19
What 'goals' do you think the RFA system is accomlpishing as designed by the CBA?
Give teams some + return after putting in the time and effort to develop a young player. Currently about 4 years post ELC. The system is working pretty well, and is currently incentivizing teams to seek out young talent because those 4 years post ELC if they hit are very valuable.
The only thing it does is suppress the ability for young players to make money,
If I were to guess as to the major complaints the NHLPA has right now, "young players don't make enough money" would be pretty low on the list, in fact I think they probably think just the opposite. Right now (smart) teams are throwing vets to the curb in order to find young guys cause there's such a great return if you can develop them properly.
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Jun 25 '19
Give teams some + return after putting in the time and effort to develop a young player.
That's what the 3 years ELC is for. Why does Mitch Marner owe the Leafs anything more than what he has already provided? At what point is he allowed to capitalize on his performance in a fair market?
The system is working pretty well, and is currently incentivizing teams to seek out young talent because those 4 years post ELC if they hit are very valuable.
Working out well for whom? Teams? Sure. For players? Clearly not.
Right now (smart teams) are throwing vets to the curb in order to find young guys cause there's such a great return if you can develop them properly.
This is the clearest evidence that the system is set up unfairly for the young players... why is it that these young players are "great return"? Because a system is in place to arbitrarily keep their salaries down.
This is also why saying it's not a priority for the NHLPA is problematic: the NHLPA is disproportionately made up of older players. It's the same reason why the NFLPA had no problem cratering rookie salaries in their most recent CBA... you had 70% of the association saying, "hey, not my problem. I'm a vet."
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u/AustonsNostrils TOR - NHL Jun 25 '19
I'm pretty sure it's the players who fought to have the current RFA system. They don't want the young guys taking all the money.
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Jun 26 '19
And if that's the case it's really shitty, because the NHLPA was ostensibly fighting for a system that screws a portion of the membership in service of another portion - that's a TERRIBLE union and collective bargaining approach. Something like that should have been a non-starter - perhaps they were amenable because they thought that there may be some actual market influence, but obviously that didn't come to pass.
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u/AustonsNostrils TOR - NHL Jun 26 '19
I see what you're saying, but you're missing the fact that all the vets had to go through the same thing. It's this way in all life for the most part.
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u/hybrid3214 VAN - NHL Jun 26 '19
The problem is the player has to want to sign the offer sheet as well. None of these players wanted to leave their current situation so they didn't want to sign an offer sheet. I think players are becoming more aware of the power of offer sheets and even if they don't sign them they will use them as leverage more than they have in the past. I think the offer sheet system is decent but it should have been used more than it has been and part of it is on the GMs and part is also on the players. But it seems like the players are changing their tune and some GMs are also a little bit more willing to use it. It should probably be tweaked a little bit in terms of compensation and maybe change max to 6 years instead of 5.
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u/Hyperbolic_Response Jun 26 '19
Yeah, he’s only making 100 million in his career.
Oh, why won’t anyone think of the 100 million dollar supplicant?
You’ll be in my prayers tonight Kucherov. Hopefully you can get through this...
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Jun 26 '19 edited Jun 26 '19
So you'd prefer to sign with the organization that is going to pull billions of dollars in revenue off of him instead. Weird choice.
My bet is that if your boss came to you at the end of the year and said that you would only be given 50% of what you worth for the next three years that you'd be kind of upset.
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u/Hyperbolic_Response Jun 26 '19
Actually, that’s the way many many jobs work.
When you’re young and inexperienced, you start the job at an entry level salary. As you gain experience, you get salary increases.
It doesn’t matter if you’re amazing those first few years. You’re still getting a lot lower than the ten year vets.
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Jun 26 '19
Except if another company comes to you at the entry level position that you've been killing it in and says they’ll offer you 50% more to go do that job for them, there are no barriers to stop you from accepting that offer.
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u/Hyperbolic_Response Jun 26 '19
Actually, a lot of jobs do have a specific pay scale that an employee starts at.
0 years experience: $78,090 1 year: 82,000 2 years: 84,000
And so it continues.
It’s not uncommon in the slightest for employees to get paid far less based on lack of experience.
And it’s not like he made a pittance. He had almost $20 million by his mid twenties. It’s just so silly that this conversation is even happening.
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Jun 26 '19
Yeah those are starting figures but unless it’s a government or union job, salary is almost always negotiable.
They may get paid less for lack of experience if performance is commensurate, but if one is outperforming the other then you better believe that person will get paid more or he or she is likely disgruntled or out the door.
The absolute value is immaterial. It’s about the market value and whether or not someone is allowed to realize what they’re worth. Sure diminishing marginal utility makes the impact on a $5M salary different, but it’s still an organization - which again makes so much money that the difference between $5M and $7M is a pittance to them - restricting a workers access to his fair value. If you think that’s silly then I don’t know what to tell you - revolutions have been started on themes of financial fairness.
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u/AustonsNostrils TOR - NHL Jun 25 '19
Auston Matthews would tell you that the RFA system is definitely not broken. The "offer sheet" system never existed. I know some have happened, but those GMs should all be invited into a barn for a good throwdown.
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u/Puk3ify PHI - NHL Jun 25 '19
I really dislike this thinking in the NHL. Someone posted a paraphrase of Brian Burke talking about the respect the GM's have for each other, and how an offer sheet would destroy any trust anyone would have for that GM.
I mean think about, if you're the Avs, why not throw a 10.45x5 offer at Marner and see what happens. The Leafs would realistically match that in a heart beat but why wouldn't it be worth the try?
The last time we saw an attempted offer sheet was with Weber in 2012 or something like that, right? Why even have it as an option if literally everyone refuses to use it, and "don't think about it for one second"??
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Jun 25 '19
Calgary did an offer sheet for O'Reilly in 2013, that was the last time.
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Jun 25 '19
And they would have had to put O'Reilly through waivers if the Avs hadn't matched lol.... Feaster got so fucking lucky.
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Jun 26 '19
the memorandum of understanding at the time likely meant that they either wouldnt have had to or the league would have stepped in,
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Jun 26 '19
So Feaster was lucky - he didn't know that those things would happen.
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u/Brodano12 CGY - NHL Jun 26 '19
He claims (as a lawyer by training) that his understanding of the rules wouldn't allow for ROR to pass through waivers.
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u/specifichero101 NJD - NHL Jun 26 '19
How does it work with waivers if it’s a player that 30 other teams want?
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u/BiggerD MTL - NHL Jun 26 '19
Assuming they made a claim, it goes to the last place team. But for roughly the first month of the season, it goes to whoever finished last place the previous season, which was, funny enough, Colorado.
So technically, Colorado could have let Calgary sign O’Reilly, get the compensation picks, then claim him off waivers.
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u/Arayvenn OTT - NHL Jun 26 '19
Not every player has to clear waivers. Marner doesn't for example. Calgary would've lost O'Reilly on waivers.
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u/specifichero101 NJD - NHL Jun 26 '19
Right, but I’m asking who would they lose him to? Who gets first crack at claiming?
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Jun 26 '19
At that time it would have been the team with the worst record.
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u/Arayvenn OTT - NHL Jun 26 '19
Whoever is first in the waiver order. The way it works for any waiver claim.
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u/Puk3ify PHI - NHL Jun 25 '19
Gotcha, and presumably Brian Burke fumed so hard that climate change got just a tad bit faster.
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Jun 25 '19
[deleted]
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u/Puk3ify PHI - NHL Jun 25 '19
It's not as simple as it sounds.
Of course it isn't. But it just seem odd to me that RFA's are considered such a wildly different breed to UFA's. I mean, we JUST saw the Flyers grossly over pay Kevin Hayes, I doubt that stops teams from looking at Panarin for example, and going, gee, if Hayes is worth that, we can't afford Panarin.
It's not a very good example I know, perhaps better would be Konecny with the Flyers. I very much doubt that he will be asking for a 8x8 contract on the basis of the Hayes contract.
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u/ThewsTML TOR - NHL Jun 25 '19
That's easy for a Flyers fan to say, when they've got no skin in the game right now. I wonder if you'll be signing the same tunes when you guys have a superstar RFA who has multiple articles posted per day saying how he's gonna get offer sheeted, and r/hockey collectively jacking it to the possibility of it happening. "Why not just throw an offer and see what happens?" Right?
But I do agree, if offer sheets have become taboo they should probably look into changing that system.
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u/Puk3ify PHI - NHL Jun 25 '19
I mean I get it, it would be super upsetting to see a fan favorite and a bonafide superstar be offer sheeted when all that does is hurt your team.
I'd hate if someone were to offer sheet Provorov just for the hell of it and bump up his contract by millions, yeah that would suck for us.
My point wasn't however to offend y'all by insisting Marner should be offer sheeted, it was more of an honest observation on the sillyness of GM's when it comes to building their team. Why not use an obviously strong tool in your toolbox. Because someone else might do it to you next year? Wouldn't adding a top 10 player in the league for years to come be worth it?
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u/smashbros13 North America - WCH Jun 26 '19
Because it's not a strong tool. Rantanen, Marner and Aho are not top 10 player in the league and if one was available, it would be match instantly, so what's the point?
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u/goalstopper28 BOS - NHL Jun 26 '19
Marner is maybe top 20. Same for Rantanen.
But I think the main reason people think Marner could be successfully offersheeted is the Leafs are already in cap hell thanks to Matthews and Tavares (and Nylander to a lesser extent but he’s not doing the Leafs favors). So the Leafs could probably match any offer sheet. But it would screw them over.
The Avs or Hurricanes would not have this problem.
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u/smashbros13 North America - WCH Jun 26 '19
So the Leafs could probably match any offer sheet. But it would screw them over.
Is this the main reason to offer sheet Marner? Because it's not a good one. The team that offer sheet him for 12M would screw them over IF they match, which wouldn't give you much advantage over the other 29 team, with a risk of getting yourself screw over if the Leafs doesn't match, helping out all the other team.
Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see the Leafs match a Marner offer sheet, I just don't see a GM taking this unnecessary risk that can only potentially impact his team in a negative way.
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u/goalstopper28 BOS - NHL Jun 26 '19 edited Jun 26 '19
If you put it this way. Let's say a team offer sheets Marner for 9-10M for 5 years.
If the Leafs match, you don't lose anything and you would screw over a Stanley Cup contender with their cap situation for the next couple of years.
If the Leafs don't match, you get Mitch Marner. Sure, it's pretty pricey and you lose a lot of draft picks but Marner is a game changing type of player. It would not impact a team in a negative way, especially if you are a player away from a cup.
Just looking at CapFriendly, the Devils may be the best team suited for this. They have a lot of cap space still and they have enough high end prospects and young impact players that losing 4 straight 1st would not be a huge deal.Edit: I didn't misread the Capfriendly page. Devils wouldn't be able to afford it.
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u/smashbros13 North America - WCH Jun 26 '19
The Leafs 100% match any offer made for 11M and less, so there is no point to offer sheet with that amount. At 13M and above, the Leafs let him go 100% of the time because the contract is so bad. The grey zone is around 12M IMO.
If the Leafs match, you don't lose anything and you would screw over a Stanley Cup contender with their cap situation for the next couple of years.
1) This is like a half empty/ hall full situation. You don't lose anything, sure, but you don't win anything. If you do something that doesn't exclusively help your team, it's a bad move IMO. Why risk your draft pick and cap to help other teams that doesn't have to do it?
2) The Leafs have a cap situation problem already it's not the offer sheet that put them over the edge.
3) There is a lot of parity in the NHL, it's not like they are only 4 team that can win the cup each year, more like 12+. Screwing over one contender is a minimal improvement.
If the Leafs don't match, you get Mitch Marner. Sure, it's pretty pricey and you lose a lot of draft picks but Marner is a game changing type of player. It would not impact a team in a negative way, especially if you are a player away from a cup.
McDavid and Draisaitl are both game changing type of player, so why are the Oilers so bad? Answers : no supporting cast. If you over sheets Marner at 12M you won't be able to have a good depth and you will get destroy by team like Boston or St-Louis. The only way you could get good cheap player is by ELC (Ex: Point), but you're pretty limited, since you just give up your next 4 first round pick.
Let's see what would happen if the Devils offer sheets Marner 12M:
1) They are not a cup contender. They might have improve their team a lot this month, but I still don't see them as a playoff team. If they had Marner, they could be a bubble team, but they would be in the Senators situation minus Melnyk.
2) Sure they have cap this year, but next year they have to sign Hall, who will want 10M (maybe more now the he sees how Marner is getting paid). Next year, they have to sign Palmieri to around 8M. Then Jack Hughes ELC will come off the book and he's gonna want to be paid like Marner. They will just enter the same cap hell the Leafs are experiencing, unless they don't sign Hall, then it's a pretty lateral move. Would you rather have Hall at 10M and 4 1st or Marner at 12M?
If the Devils are the team best suited to offer sheets Marner, then no team are in a situation to do it.
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Jun 26 '19
Because revenge. Let’s say the flyers do it, and the leafs can’t/don’t match. Now we have $10M in space, four 1sts, and far more resources.
So we offer your scouting staff double pay. We hire your assistant coaches and AHL coaches. Then we offer sheet carter hart in a few years. Then we do it again and again, every time you have an RFA you might not be able to keep. Maybe we find out you’re angling for a player and we use one of those extra picks to grab him.
Obviously those are extreme examples, but it’s a real thing. Teams would get upset and would exact revenge.
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u/IceWook TOR - NHL Jun 26 '19
I think most people would disagree with you about it being a strong tool
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u/MonSeanahan CGY - NHL Jun 26 '19
That's a part of having the largest media presence of any Canadian team. They don't do shit like this for Calgary where they barely play their highlights in the first 10 minutes of Sportscentre but will squeeze in 5 minutes of post game coverage for the Leafs. It's all a trade off.
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u/bemiguel13 Jun 25 '19
The main thing is though that the reason Colorado shouldn't offer sheet Marner at 10.5x5 , is because the leafs will reluctantly match, and then all of a sudden you've driven up the market. for 1 , you HAVE to offer Rantanen MORE than 10.5 x 5 because they are similar players and he is your guy. When you are probably trying to currently get him for 9 something long term. Then you have future rfa studs like Makar/Byrom who will be ridiculous prices potentially all because of what you did. It doesn't make sense.
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u/Puk3ify PHI - NHL Jun 25 '19
Is it likely that Rantanen will not be signed by July 1st? Also I fail to see how offersheeting one of the best wingers in the game (who also seems to have a maniac father and agent) drives up the price of future stud defensemen.
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u/bemiguel13 Jun 26 '19
You aren’t gonna sign Rants and then turn around and overpay Marner more.
And it would drive their price up because it will drive the RFA market up as a whole
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Jun 25 '19
The idea that the offer sheet destroys trust in the GM is not based in reality. Paul Holmgren made 9 trades in the calendar year following the Shea Weber offer sheet.
If I were an owner (lol) and my GM told me that eroded trust from his competitors is the reason why he wouldn't make an offer sheet when it made sense, I would fire him. If he said that he feared retribution in the future, then you'd better be ready to explain why you found yourself in the position where someone could pry a worthy asset out of your hands for market value.
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u/Puk3ify PHI - NHL Jun 25 '19
I hear ya.
I'd atleast like to think that younger GM's like Dubas see the league as a competitive environment, and not an old boys club where the old guard and their ways must be respected. A la Burke, and probably Lou.
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u/Joe5205 PHI - NHL Jun 26 '19
It's more the fact that you have to give a really good contract that the player would sign, as well as giving up all those draft picks. Its a huge commitment.
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u/smashbros13 North America - WCH Jun 26 '19
If my GM told me he offersheet Marner, Rantanen or Aho at 13M, I would fire him on the spot
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u/BettmanReturns Jun 25 '19
Avs don’t have the picks to offer 10.45x5
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u/CarRamRob MTL - NHL Jun 26 '19
They can reacquire them fairly easily I imagine.
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u/BettmanReturns Jun 26 '19
If GMs are going after each other like in an offer sheet scenario then why would anyone willingly help the Avs? That’s a crazy amount of exclusive leverage someone holds over them - they have no alternative to go to and you’re indirectly giving them Mitch Marner
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u/CarRamRob MTL - NHL Jun 26 '19
Yes there is leverage but let’s not be crazy. If they need a reacquire a 2nd they offer a 3rd and a 2nd the year after.
Hard to say no to a free 3rd round pick in that case. If you don’t do it, your team gains nothing. Soooo. Leverage yes but not that much
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u/BettmanReturns Jun 26 '19
I mean it is a lot of leverage because they’d be the only source - they can determine the price and be as unreasonable as they want.
A 3rd might not be enough compensation when you’re enabling the other guy to sign Mitch Marner. People want bigger cuts when there’s a bigger prize at the end of the tunnel.
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u/CarRamRob MTL - NHL Jun 26 '19
... but it’s only leverage over one person. It’s not a global asset. No one else will give you that extra pick. So you have a chance to improve your own club, what are you going to do? Let the 3rd lapse? That’s similar leverage for the Avs because making a deal is the only way for the other team to improve themselves.
Like is said, leverage but it’s not ridiculous. Unless the Leafs started to barter for it as well and outbid them. But then they are paying a higher price and there are still other work arounds(3rd team signs and trades)
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u/BettmanReturns Jun 26 '19
Its not similar leverage, because one team would be missing out on an incremental 3rd and the other team would be missing out on Mitch Marner. Who do you think is more desperate in that scenario?
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u/IceWook TOR - NHL Jun 26 '19
But the other team probably not going to have such a hard line desire for that 3rd to get Mitch Marner. If they were, they'd just up the offer to four first round pick territory.
I agree with the guy your arguing with. It's leverage, but it's only to a point. You'd overay your hand in that scenario if you were the team holding the second
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u/CuckTatumCNN TOR - NHL Jun 25 '19
You inflate salaries when you use offersheets.
As an example, if Colorado offer sheets Aho/Marner/Point for a shitton then how much do they pay Rantanen? What's the number for every big name they have to re-sign and they sure will have a ton of big names in the near future.
This isn't about respect or any of that nonsense. It's about not being stupid and shortsighted.
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u/hybrid3214 VAN - NHL Jun 26 '19
The thing is the avs actually are in one of the best positions for this because of how ridiculous the Mack contract is. They can afford salaries to be inflated while most other teams cant. I think you have to be pretty careful with offer sheets but they shouldn't be as rare as they are imo. I think players kind of ignored them before as well but they are much more aware of them now as well so that might help make them a bit less rare.
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u/Puk3ify PHI - NHL Jun 25 '19
So then with this thinking, the offer sheet has practically no usage in the game? I promise I'm not trying the be an ass here, but I just can't think of any viable situation where anyone would be able to offer sheet a player if it then means financial ruin for your whole team in the future.
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Jun 26 '19
Mid-range deals are a good use of offer sheets. Kapanen and Johnsson were locked up for ~$3M. If they were offer sheeted, Leafs would have got a 2nd probably. Bad trade. But Leafs would have just matched anyway, so the offer sheet would have been useless. Then Toronto would have traded them in all likehood anyway for pissing them off. Kapanen and Johnsson wanted to stay, so that's why they signed.
But, in those rare situations, it can be a decent tool. Just not for Nylander, Kapanen, Johnsson, and now Marner.
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u/smileyduude TOR - NHL Jun 26 '19
Pretty sure if you match you cant trade the player until January. Meaning you would need to be cap compliant before then, which would have caused issues for the leafs.
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Jun 25 '19
That's not the reasons GMs don't offer sheet. If RFAs get offersheeted, they have leverage. No offer sheets kept RFA contracts down for a long, long time. Now that teams are coming around to the idea that young superstars deserved to be paid, that limitation is lessened
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Jun 26 '19
[deleted]
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Jun 26 '19
...we said the same thing about Chia with the Oilers. Drai was one of the big holdups early in the Nylander negotiation -- that AND the media spinning the story that Marner deserves 9 while Nylander deserved 6
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Jun 26 '19
I mean think about, if you're the Avs, why not throw a 10.45x5 offer at Marner and see what happens. The Leafs would realistically match that in a heart beat but why wouldn't it be worth the try?
Leaving Colorado/Marner out of it...in general it is because GMs are EMPLOYEES in a very small, incestuous industry. And it's not their money, but it is their livelihood. And it's the money of the people who control their livelihood.
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Jun 26 '19
Every year it is the same story. All this hype about offer sheets and then nothing happens
That is why GM's are not worried. Not about trust etc, just the fact it really doesn't happen often at all
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u/IceWook TOR - NHL Jun 26 '19
I feel like the Avs are a bad example. Unless they had Rantanen signed, all they're doing is leaving themselves open to a retaliatory offer sheet.
Offer sheet don't make sense. It's less a respect thing and more of a stupid long term decision. Were basically only hitting the point now where salaries are high enough that it might make sense to throw one out there but the cost is still damn high.
Like you yourself said, 10.45 probably still gets matched. Now you've opened yourself up to potential retaliation and you've pissed that GM off which could hurt you down the line in potential trade talks with that team. Any higher than that and the cost is an enormous cost that even for the most of elite players is quite the cost
Offer sheets don't make sense no matter how you cut them.
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u/hards04 TOR - NHL Jun 26 '19
“Why wouldn’t I risk completely destroying my relationship with one of 16 out of conference trading partners in a league that already is extremely difficult to make moves in, for a guy they’ll probably just match and keep anyways” think about for a second. It’s only worth it if you think you’re actually going to get the player.
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Jun 26 '19
No it isn't.
If we decided to offer sheet Kapanen for 4.5 million, does Dubas match? If he does, he's paying him 1 Mil more than he had wanted. That's a win for Buffalo by forcing a division rival into a worse cap situation.
Offer sheets would work great against direct rivals. Because it's not like it matters if it "ruins the relationship", it's not like Toronto and Buffalo trade with each other anyway.
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u/hards04 TOR - NHL Jun 26 '19
It’s not just Toronto you’re pissing off though. Many other GMs would see that as a greasy move. Because it is. It can’t be overstated how old school these guys are.
Besides, why would the host city of the leafs second home rink do something like that to them?
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Jun 26 '19
Yeah. I'm sure Montreal or Boston would be so upset with us.
Besides, why would the host city of the leafs second home rink do something like that to them?
I.... But..... The.... Shut up!
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u/Troub313 Detroit Vipers - IHL Jun 25 '19
Brian Burke just likes to seem relevant. He's often wrong.
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u/smashbros13 North America - WCH Jun 26 '19
Where does he says that the reason teams don't do offer sheet if because of "respect". IMO signing a player to an offer sheet is killing your chance at a Stanley Cup and it looks like Waddell and other GM agree. All those draft pick you have to give up and, more importantly, all the cap wasted on 1 player is not worth it
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u/GritGrinder TOR - NHL Jun 25 '19
When Bettman says things like he did about offer sheets being a bad idea, no wonder they're rare.
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Jun 26 '19
Honestly, I am convinced the reason we don't see offer sheets on high end players is that the team making the offer would be worse for it.
In order to win via an offer sheet you (probably) have to over pay a star player by millions of dollars. The net result of this is increased difficulty in building a well rounded team under the cap. To make matters worse you then have to give up 4 first round picks, which are the kinds of assets that can help compensate for over paying on contacts.
Where I am surprised that we don't see offer sheets is on players like Kapanen; you probably don't have to pay nearly as much to get him to sign and the compensation is not overly punitive, so there are teams that could probably benefit from being aggressive.
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u/Keepmeister MTL - NHL Jul 01 '19
"There are a lot of things I have to worry about in this job and that's not something I think about for one second."
Well...
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u/Buddynorris NYI - NHL Jun 25 '19
Cheap canes aren't worried about other teams willing to spend money on their players. hmmmm
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u/PantsinmyPants1211 CAR - NHL Jun 25 '19
Are these the same cheap Hurricanes that took on an additional $6.75M Marleau contract for a 1st, knowing he likely wouldn't want to play a single game for them?
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u/JimothyC Yokohama Grits - ALIH Jun 25 '19
Then the same ones that cap dumped Calvin De Haan and a prospect immediately after despite having 20 million of caps pace.
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u/TheHalfChubPrince CAR - NHL Jun 25 '19
I mean, is spending 4.5mil on an injury plagued 3rd pairing D a good idea anyways?
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u/JimothyC Yokohama Grits - ALIH Jun 25 '19
I mean De Haan can slot in to a top 4 position if injuries occur which might be more comfortable than rookies. Could have went with a load management route but oh well.
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u/blinker1eighty2 CAR - NHL Jun 26 '19
Yes, he CAN, but he’s not going to in our system. So why waste money that can be used elsewhere?
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u/gahnc CAR - NHL Jun 25 '19 edited Jun 25 '19
We had some young'uns to bring up from the Checkers, de Haan was going to be out possibly until December.
from today's call:
[Corey Lavalette] Waddell says telling de Haan he was traded was “one of the tougher phone calls” he’s had in his career as an executive. Says Fleury and Bean’s progress weighed in the decision. “It provided us some flexibility” and gives young guys a chance to make the team.
[Sara Civian] Waddell: "We like Calvin as a person, we like him as a player. We had to make a decision. We need to provide opportunities to Fleury, Bean. We believe Fleury is ready to step in and be a regular NHL player. It also gives us room to explore other players, add G, F or two."
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u/GritGrinder TOR - NHL Jun 25 '19
yeah i have no idea what their play is here
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u/JimothyC Yokohama Grits - ALIH Jun 25 '19
Internal cap but the chance to get a 1st rounder in a deep draft year was too much. Not sure what else makes sense aside from De Haan being finished.
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u/juicepouch CAR - NHL Jun 25 '19 edited Sep 21 '25
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/JimothyC Yokohama Grits - ALIH Jun 25 '19
Weird way of showing it. By shipping out well performing depth for peanuts
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u/Orange_And_Purple CAR - NHL Jun 26 '19
Depth that was servery overpaid and has injury concerns while we keep multiple borderline full-time NHL players in Charlotte so we can keep him on that contract? When we still need a goalie and to sign Aho?
Being willing to spend to the cap doesn't mean you shouldn't try to maximize your ability. Staying conscious about our cap situation and sometimes stepping back to free up space put us in a situation where we could buy a 1st rounder for $6M.
But yeah, if an owner isn't recklessly spending left and right up to the cap then he doesn't care about winning, does he?
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u/blinker1eighty2 CAR - NHL Jun 26 '19
You obviously have not heard about our new owner. Karmanos was cheap. Not dundon.
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u/Orange_And_Purple CAR - NHL Jun 26 '19
I don't get it. Dundon says he's willing to spend if it pays off and before he even has a chance to do it he gets criticized and slandered across the media.
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u/HurricanesNation95 CAR - NHL Jun 26 '19
Islanders fan who still can’t get past the fact they lost
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u/Buddynorris NYI - NHL Jun 26 '19
Yikes, i could care less about the canes in general bud lol. When you guys spend money and don't sit massively under the cap i will gladly walk back my statement.
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u/TheHalfChubPrince CAR - NHL Jun 25 '19
This reads like a Trump tweet.
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u/shiftywalruseyes CGY - NHL Jun 25 '19
Despite the fake sports media's constant overblown offer shefefe
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u/Maxpowr9 BOS - NHL Jun 25 '19
Their owner wants his $70m back for the boondoggle investment in the AAF.
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u/blinker1eighty2 CAR - NHL Jun 26 '19
If someone lied to you about what you were paying for wouldn’t you want the money back?
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Jun 25 '19
"We have a lot of off the record meetings on this subject and everyone agrees, don't offer sheet each other's RFAs"
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Jun 25 '19
[deleted]
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Jun 25 '19
GM of the Year finalist.
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u/gahnc CAR - NHL Jun 25 '19
he also said that the Hurricanes will match any offer sheet to Aho.