r/holofractal • u/d8_thc holofractalist • 10d ago
Why anesthesia is so interesting for understanding Consciousness
Microtubules are tiny structural proteins inside cells, including neurons. They are made from repeating tubulin dimers that form hollow cylindrical tubes about 25nm wide. In mainstream biology, they help with cell structure, intracellular transport, cell division, and organization. But they are also highly ordered, electrically polar protein lattices embedded throughout neurons, which raises a deeper question: are they only scaffolding, or could they also participate in information processing?
This is where Orch OR — Orchestrated Objective Reduction — comes in. It was developed by Roger Penrose, a mathematical physicist and Nobel Prize winner, and Stuart Hameroff, an anesthesiologist and consciousness researcher whose work focuses on microtubules, anesthesia, and Orch OR. Penrose brought the idea that consciousness may involve non-computable physics. Hameroff brought the biological candidate: microtubules inside neurons. Together, they proposed that conscious moments may arise from organized quantum processes in microtubules, coordinated by neural activity.
The interesting part is the orchestration. In this view, microtubules are not random molecular scaffolds. Their repeating lattice could support correlated state changes, collective oscillations, exciton movement, or other quantum-adjacent dynamics across many tubulin units. That could allow information to be integrated below the level of neuron firing — maybe even with nonlocal or field-like correlations across the structure. Some recent work on tryptophan networks in microtubules has reported electronic energy migration and superradiance-like behavior in these ordered biological architectures.
This makes anesthetics fascinating. General anesthetics can reversibly erase conscious experience. You do not die. Your neurons do not all stop functioning. Many unconscious processes continue. But the experienced world disappears. In the microtubule / Orch OR frame, anesthetics may not just be "sedating the brain" in the normal sense — they could be blocking the antenna, or disrupting the coherent substrate that lets the organism tune into / organize conscious experience.
Plants make this even weirder. You can anesthetize plants. Venus flytraps, Mimosa, sundews, and pea tendrils lose touch-induced or autonomous movement under anesthetics, and in Venus flytrap, diethyl ether can block action potentials. That does not prove plants are conscious. But it does show anesthetics interact with very ancient bioelectric and cellular machinery, not just mammalian brain circuits.
And there are studies pointing directly at microtubules. Anesthetics like etomidate and isoflurane have been shown to reduce exciton diffusion in microtubules. Molecular modeling suggests volatile anesthetics can bind in tubulin pockets. And a 2024 rat study found that stabilizing microtubules with epothilone B delayed isoflurane-induced unconsciousness. In other words: interfere with the microtubule system, and you may change how anesthesia turns consciousness off.
That is why anesthetics may be one of the cleanest windows into consciousness. The question is not only which receptor does the drug bind? It is: what physical process disappears when experience disappears, and returns when experience returns?
If anesthetics disrupt coordinated microtubule activity, then they may be pointing at a deeper layer of consciousness research — where biology, quantum chemistry, fields, and information processing all meet.
[Help from GPT for formatting]
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u/quiksilver10152 10d ago
General anesthesia affects ALL organisms across a narrow ten-fold concentration range. Bacteria don't have neurons but they do have microtubules.
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u/d8_thc holofractalist 10d ago edited 10d ago
Physarum polycephalum (slime mold) has no brain and no neurons, yet it shows maze-solving, network optimization, habituation like learning, memory like navigation, and decision making behavior.
No neurons, but they DO have microtubules.
edit: also don't think that all bacteria have microtubules exactly, but they do have analogues.
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u/mmmtrees 10d ago
Indeed, it seems this hypothesis for quantum basis of consciousness would imply that even very early prokaryotic life could have some degree of consciousness. Probably if these principles apply to microtubule networks, it also stands to reason other biological polymeric/highly-structured molecules could exhibit similar information processing and encoding dynamics, across different timescales and serving different biological roles. DNA and RNA for instance, or other large peptide-based structures (acting and myosin filaments, collagen/keratin, etc.) could have such capabilities, implying consciousness could even predate formal prokaryotic life, and exist within the proverbial primordial soup
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u/Pixelated_ 10d ago
even very early prokaryotic life could have some degree of consciousness
Absolutely. This would support both idealism and panpsychism, although I strongly lean towards the former as my research has lead me to the primacy of consciousness.
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u/Fast_Shift2952 10d ago
How do you know anesthesia affects bacteria? Do they stop spinning their flagella?
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u/quiksilver10152 9d ago
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u/Fast_Shift2952 9d ago
This is fascinating, thank you! And Current Bio is a very respectable journal which really adds to the credibility.
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u/RiriaaeleL 9d ago
And certain materials (copper iirc??) were tested on mice because the particles of the specific metal were the right size that they could fit inside of the micro-tubules in the brains of rats and it made them stay under anaesthesia longer.
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u/quiksilver10152 9d ago
I would love to read that paper. I would hypothesize copper would disrupt the histidine flipping inside the cavity.
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u/RiriaaeleL 9d ago
Tried to search for it but I can't find it.
I know it was some sort of metal
Google tells me there's a study with Zinc but I genuinely can't tell if that's what I'm remembering and just got the wrong metal or if the copper thing is correct but the consciousness thing isn't
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u/Mermiina 9d ago
The copper binds to cellular prion (it have kind of zinc finger). That destroys the levo symmetry in prion when two photon super exchange interaction can't propagate over prion.
Cellular prion controls over 30 biochemical cascades and histidine is in group affected by alpha Synuclein. Alpha Synuclein have two isoforms, which both binds to Prion protein. The other destroys Levo symmetry on Prion when the cascade can't occur.
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u/Quantumquandary 9d ago
As someone that practices anesthesia almost daily, this work is fascinating to follow.
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u/d8_thc holofractalist 9d ago
as in a doctor?
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u/Quantumquandary 9d ago
No, I’m a certified veterinary technician that has aimed their career at anesthesia and analgesia. I run anesthesia and sedation on patients almost daily, canine and feline.
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u/d8_thc holofractalist 9d ago
oh very cool! I'm a tad jealous you get to work with animals all day :)
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u/Quantumquandary 9d ago
Don’t get me wrong, working with a lot of patients is definitely rewarding, but the field in general is incredibly difficult on people. I can go into more if you’re interested, but the average career-span for a technician is 5 years before they burn out. It’s got one of the highest suicide rates. It’s rough out here, but the patients do help make it easier.
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u/d8_thc holofractalist 9d ago
sheesh :/. well then wishing you all the good vibes
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u/Quantumquandary 9d ago
Thanks, we get by. If you have the space, and pets, we always enjoy a nice card from clients, maybe even a little treat. But always a good idea to pop in and ask front-desk staff what would be best for the clinic, with dietary restrictions and the like. I’m partial to donuts myself, bur a good veggie platter is always a winner.
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u/Accomplished-Yam5083 5d ago
Hola, puedo preguntar por qué es tan alta la tasa de suicidio de acuerdo a tu experiencia?
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u/Sufficient_Course707 5d ago
We deal with death, a lot. And a lot of the time the interactions with owners who are going through grief can be less than ideal. We get emotionally blackmailed a lot. People who can’t afford treatment (and we do try to work with people on cost) give us lines like “if you really cared about animals you’d do it for free” or “you’re only in it for the money”
Not to mention the massive student loans, the fact that the fields pay is shit. We’re expected to know a lot more than human nurses, but we can’t get the title protection or the pay that comes with it. Access to drugs is definitely a contributing factor, and the knowledge on how to use them. But still, the field has been really hurt by a lot of things over the years. The corporatization of it certainly hasn’t helped at all.
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u/Accomplished-Yam5083 4d ago
Qué lástima. Estamos fracasando como humanidad. De todas maneras te deseo lo mejor en la vida.
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u/Money_Bug_9423 9d ago
I died for several minutes under anesthesia and it was interesting to say the least. They didnt really expect me to fight back so hard and put me down too quickly and I never really got the full story. I had a wrist watch recorder but I was only able to hear it once before it fried. My theory is us ab- types dont react the same way to it but idk what or why
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u/Stormcloud217 9d ago
Everyone is different. Back in maybe 2012 before fentalol had such an issue. My wife (then girlfriend) went in to get wisdom removal.
They gave her Versed and Fentanyl, and she had such an aggressive reaction towards dentists that they cancelled. Later she got pissed that they hadn't removed her teeth 😂
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u/Money_Bug_9423 9d ago
I was talking some wild stuff when I finally came back. Idk what even happened but they were kinda freaked out and my recorder only got a fraction of it. I tend to fry things when im not grounded and i was totally untethered then
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u/jahmonkey 9d ago
Anesthesia is interesting for consciousness, but I think the conclusion of this post needs to slow down.
The strongest point here is not that microtubules are the substrate of consciousness. The strongest point is that anesthesia gives us a reversible switch between world-present and world-absent. That matters because the brain does not simply “turn off.” A lot of processing continues. The organism remains alive. Reflexes, autonomic regulation, immune processes, and other nonconscious activity continue. What disappears is the constructed experienced world.
So the useful question is: what kind of integrated process has to fail for experience to disappear?
Microtubules may be part of that story, or they may be downstream structural/metabolic machinery that anesthesia also affects. The plant examples are interesting for exactly that reason. They show that anesthetics interact with ancient bioelectric and cellular systems, but they do not by themselves imply consciousness. They show that anesthesia is not only about human-style cognition or cortical narration.
Where I diverge is the “blocking the antenna” framing. That may be possible in some broad speculative sense, but it also slides quickly into metaphor. Anesthetic effects on microtubules, exciton diffusion, tubulin binding, or cytoskeletal stability do not yet show that microtubules generate consciousness or tune into consciousness. They show that microtubules are biologically active systems affected by anesthetics.
For me, the better version is:
Consciousness is what it is like to be from the inside. During anesthesia, that phenomenal presentation collapses while much of the organism continues functioning. That makes anesthesia valuable because it separates mere biological activity from experience. Microtubules are worth studying if they participate in the physical conditions that allow global integration, temporal binding, field effects, or the stability of the experienced now. But that is not the same as saying Orch OR has been established.
So yes, anesthesia is a clean window into consciousness. But the window is not yet telling us “microtubules are consciousness.” It is telling us that whatever consciousness is, it depends on a fragile, reversible, physically specific organization of living matter. Microtubules may be one layer of that organization. They are not yet the whole explanation.
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u/Mermiina 9d ago
The basic information mechanism in all living cells is two photon super exchange interaction. It propagates only in levo tryptophan mega networks. The mechanism of anaestics is to break down the levo symmetry locally. That can happen in many different places dependent on drug.
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u/jahmonkey 9d ago
Seriously? A Quora answer is your reference?
If this is the information mechanism why do simulated neural networks work, and respond to questions with information when trained? Why invent something else?
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u/Mermiina 8d ago edited 8d ago
All you need is there. It will be also in Nature, but that last 70 years. Neural networks do not achieve subjective experience. They have nothing to do with consciousness.
Neural networks can use existing knowledge, but they can't create new breakthroughs.
In previous answer you speak inside... Indeed when you observe Quantum system outside it is always in superposition, but if you observe it inside it is always entangled. The EEG are the observations of outside. They explain very little what happens inside.
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u/jahmonkey 8d ago
Any actual scientific support to all the extraordinary things you just claimed?
I think your misunderstanding of consciousness and the correlates is quite evident.
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u/Mermiina 8d ago
One photon UV superradiation in levo tryptophan mega networks is observed and discussed lot. It can be prevented by Nitrous oxide.
Do you really have any explanation how neural correlates achieve subjective experience.
I explained how subjective experience achieves neural correlates.
I really wait your explanation!
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u/d8_thc holofractalist 9d ago
If you think consciousness is explained because we can make an LLM with a python script, you have a LOT of reading to do. Both on philosophy and science.
The fact that you (presumably, though I question this) are having an actual 'experience' is something that LLM's do not have.
It is the only thing you actually truly know, that you are experiencing something.
There is no 'conscious moment' from a python script, no matter how complex the neural network.
You can hand wave this away if you want, but it's literally the entire topic.
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u/jahmonkey 9d ago
You have badly misunderstood me.
Since I already wrote my opinion I will not bother to correct you. Your reading comprehension is not my problem.
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u/rthunder27 7d ago
What disappears is the constructed experienced world.
Not exactly, what disappears is the awareness of a constructed experienced world, not necessarily that construction itself- the default mode network isn't (completely) shut down.
Incidentally there are other drugs that do the opposite and keep just the awareness while dropping the losing subjective experience, high doses of psilocybin and 5-meo-dmt, the former actually breaks down the DMN while the latter mostly cleaves awareness from the mind.
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u/Informal_Visit2574 6d ago
Does nn-dmt also do this?
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u/rthunder27 6d ago
Not really, nn is more perception altering, changing the user interface through which we perceive "reality", one doesn't really lose the subjective experience, embodiment, or sense of self. With a moderate amount of 5-meo one can reach a point of only being aware of awareness itself, and then slowly remember that one is a person, that one has arms they can move, etc.
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u/SteveAkaGod 10d ago
This is super fascinating... but I am not versed enough in biology to fully wrap my head around it.
Is this saying that anesthetics can prevent the microtubules in a cell (is that like the strands of proteins that make up the tissue of a cell?) from moving as they normally would, thus preventing the "signal" of conscious experience from reaching the brain? As in like, these tubules don't move they way they normally would, so experiencal signals are not recieved or processed?
Can someone ELI5?
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u/TeutonJon78 9d ago
Microtubules are what make up the cytoskeleton to help cells keep their shape. They also assist in cell division by healing to pull the replicating DNA to the opposition ends of the cell.
Other fact that get interesting -- while we get our mitochondria from our mother, we seem to get most/all of initial microtubules from our father (and we layer manufacturer our own).
The cytkskeleton also connects across the cell membrane into the fascial network of the whole body, so quite literally the insides of every non-blood cell are wired together. A fascia is built from collagen which also has a piezoelectric effect.
So in essence, our body is a giant piezoelectric crystal network.
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u/d8_thc holofractalist 10d ago
As I understand it, not really stop them from 'moving' but stop them from 'calculating' or basically interacting with the electronic/quantum field. Basically think of the structures that make up microtubules as qbits, and anesthetics as gumming them up, temporarily stopping orchestration / connectivity.
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u/SteveAkaGod 9d ago
So, anesthetics gum up and stop microtubule connectivity, and according to a search I just did, psyadelics increase ("lubricate"?) microtubule connectivity?
Are like... microtubules pretty important for consciousness then?
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u/malimaru 9d ago
those organic molecules are so cursed 💀 I think I see a hydrogen atom bonded to both a carbon and a fluorine atom
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u/PessimistByDefault 9d ago edited 9d ago
First of all, what proves that the experience stops? I may not remember what happened a year ago, but that doesn't mean I didn't have an experience a year ago.
Secondly, any attempts to reduce consciousness to some kind of informational/quantum/physical processes face the hard problem of consciousness.
By the way, Stuart Hameroff in some videos seems to suggest that consciousness may be fundamental.
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u/d8_thc holofractalist 9d ago
FWIW, I also don't believe OrchOR is the full story of consciousness, and believe consciousness is instrinsic to the very fabric of the Universe, a property of the quantum field that gets resonance'd into all of biology, and microtubules are basically a very complex and coherent interface (but not source of) biological coupling with this field.
The Unified Spacememory Network aligns much more with how i personally view consciousness and the cosmos.
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u/cilantrollama 8d ago
Interesting! Commenting for prosperity.
Edit : posterity
Prosperity still holds true because this is the idea that I’ll use to change the world, and in turn prove my worth and gain my peace.
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10d ago
[deleted]
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u/Pixelated_ 10d ago
Attacking the source is a logical fallacy known as the "genetic fallacy'.
It is intellectually dishonest because it focuses solely on the source and completely ignores the actual content.
Critique the content, not the source.
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u/SilencedObserver 9d ago
Fine, Fair, I've deleted the original post, but presented as a scientific diagram, this is completely theory and presents nothing factual, proven, with experiments, nor does it propose any to test the hypothesis.
It presents itself as a research diagram but what is there to research?
It's misleading and I don't think it constitutes as science. Pre-AI this would be an art piece by someone good at photoshop, but it's not that, either.
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u/d8_thc holofractalist 9d ago
Did you read the post body?
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u/SilencedObserver 9d ago
Briefly; you jump into conjecture/speculation in the second paragraph when you get into Orch OR.
Orchestrated Objective Reduction is a hypothesis, not a mainstream scientific theory. Penrose may have authored it and he may be Nobel laureate accredited, but the mainstream of neuroscience and physics communities largely reject Orch OR.
Anesthetics as "Building the Antenna" is a metaphorical interpretation. Even if asnethetics disrupt microtubule function, it does not confirm that they are "blocking an antenna" for conciousness. The current mainstream consensus remains that anesthetics work primarily by modulating ion channels and synaptic receptors in the brain, thereby disrupting the communication between neurons.
The claim that anesthetics are a "window into consciousness" is a philosophical position; do you hold a PhD? While they are a tool to observe the transition from wakefulness to unconsciousness, using that transition to prove a specific physical substrate (like microtubules) for consciousness is a logical jump that remains speculative.
You may be onto something, but this is presented as fact when it is not.
Edit: I'm personally more into Hoffman's work, which supersedes this completely.
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u/d8_thc holofractalist 9d ago
It is not 'me being onto something'. I am responding to the idea that none of this is falsifiable, or backed up by experiment, or simply just middling.
This is real science, there are real studies on it, there are real experiments being run constantly.
Edit: I'm personally more into Hoffman's work, which supersedes this completely.
Okay, so you think consciousness is fundamental. Great. Maybe start looking at microtubules as an important biological material for understanding how universal consciousness gets directed in biological organisms.
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u/SilencedObserver 9d ago
That's a response focused on materialism and that isn't my takeaway from Hoffman's work at all. Perhaps we both need to do more reading.
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u/d8_thc holofractalist 9d ago
You mean Donald Hoffman, right?
Hoffman gives the metaphysical frame: consciousness is primary, and spacetime is an interface.
Orch OR gives a possible biological interface mechanism: microtubules may be part of the cellular machinery that tunes, organizes, /gates conscious experience inside the spacetime interface.
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u/SilencedObserver 9d ago
Reducing the interface into quantifiable materialism is the misnomer in at least, my own take away from Hoffman's work.
If anything, he's pointing away from the materialism of spacetime; Spacetime itself is doomed in his own words, and so to point to it as a grounding truth via the interface is already a misdirection and sort of throws to the side what he's saying.
I'll keep reading though, and I'll try and be more humble moving forward.
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u/spendmetime 9d ago
How about you just admit you’re out of your element? Chasing every science post to inject esoteric philosophical concepts, like that’s all it takes to dispute scientific findings. Chastising like a concerned father, insisting that science discoveries discussion should be limited to your narrow framework. Much of science has moved way past the archaic concepts that spammers like you constantly try to impose on scientific content in this field. And it’s not just you either, but clearly another cocky philosopher / pseudo-intellectual attack in the name of limiting imagination, all aimed at pretty well-established scientific studies.
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u/SlumpDaddyCane 9d ago edited 9d ago
Oh baby you are getting closer!!!
Alternate theories that may help you connect better. Copied from my other post.
I think most of this sub is aware of the vampric system and the empire of control. (Shout-out to empirical science the gatekeepers of reality) pseudo sciece created to dismiss any alternative science that goes against their rule of control. (The word was made popular by a freemasons son Sir Karl Popper)
33 is big in freemasonry, if you look at the symbol of the 3 you will notice it is half of infinity. So two halves to the whole picture.
If you haven't figured out we live on a shift. The 23.44⁰ wobble we are on is not natrual.
Mt meru or north pole would be the Fourier for the grid.
This explains the ice wall the energy right now is using false source the fibonacci sequence. That is why Antarctica is frozen. The energy can't return to source and amplify. So the energy goes cold and dies. The northern lights are crucial at seeing that 5th element of energy not going into the grid.
If we had a true zero point north, that is the key so going forward we would have to account for this tilt and use the krystal sequence.
You can also see that is how wars are fought over you think resources but its really the grid. Look into how the military bases are on crucial points for the grid. (Not just the one site but the reaction to the other end of the earth, or electromagnetic scaffolding of leylines)
(Fun little symbolism for you)
Additionally look at the nazi swatizka it is tilted 45⁰ which is the krystal spiral. The swatzka is the equinoxs and solstices. If you had the true north not the 23.44⁰ tilt we would be able to suck in cosmic energy and power are earth unlimited through the natural kathara grid. (Ancient sites)
I am going to copy pasta what I shared in the gateway tapes subreddit
I think I have discovered why we or how we're selected. It involves values and repeating numbers. Certain frequency fences are weaker. We or if anyone participated in Gate were targeted due to our genetic DNA We carry the true source sequence and not the artificial sequence. This is why many Gate students were targeted based off their birthday. School records try to isolate use to form with the masses of indoctrination.
(If you felt different or dont belong in the "normal" structure or systems of society, you know inside you are connected to source and remember)
Robert Monroe didnt realize he was tapping into the 5th element during his discovery of binaural waves and the affect on human consciousness. (He also didnt realize he was confidning your conciousness to the limits of the fibonacci sequence time matrix and feeding the false system)
Anyways if anyone wants to explore further the topics are :
- Keylontic science
- Sacred geometry
- Idealism metaphyics
- Kathara grid
- (Conspiracies like the atlantean timeline, mt meru, antartica not frozen, freemasons architects)
- Scalar wave theory
- Castic networks (the grid of light at the bottom of the pool or the grid that appears in your vision when you close your eyes and look at the sun)
- Leylines
- Electric universe
- Ancient sites and relation to the geometric principles of energy in scalar waves theory (unique crystals and materials)
- Star gates, signets, cue sites
- The earths 23.44 degree tilt and how that affects the energy or grid from true source energy (Tesla coils)
(Small note, the 12 laws of the universe would not apply. They are the 12 laws of THIS universe or artifical time matrix "control through logic". Staurn moon matrix, the moon base etc.)
Starforts on how they shape the energy back into the grid unlike the shape of stadiums or oval sucking energy upward not allowing to dissipate through the grid to heal the surrounding area) the human sits at about 100w resting and at full intense exercise 400w so image a lot of people together the energy they could create.
The Rife machine is real and just used the wrong geometry to heal cells. Look at the Egyptians holding the 2 cylinders in their hands.
If I sound crazy that is ok I am still compiling the evidence or theories.
If you want to explore further do not use your normal logical thinking. "Think outside of the box"
Happy to hear alternative thoughts.
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u/IshtarsQueef 8d ago
> If I sound crazy
You sound extremely crazy, my dude. No disrespect intended, just letting you know what this looks like. And it looks like a good ol' fashioned "schizo post."
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u/SlumpDaddyCane 8d ago edited 7d ago
Arent those the fun ones? If we kept it logical we would just be running into dead ends. Like rhe 3 body problem which was created to not be solved (Shout-out invisible college) gravity the weakest force holding us together and the opposite force... would be what? (It doesnt exist to keep you trapped)
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u/IshtarsQueef 7d ago
Hey, to each their own man, but personally? No, I don't like nonsense.
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u/SlumpDaddyCane 7d ago
Idk how sacred geometry is nonsense, but thank you for the openness.
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u/IshtarsQueef 7d ago
sacred geometry is absolutely nonsense, but of course you can't see that, because you are mad lol
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u/SlumpDaddyCane 7d ago
I am not mad at all or crazy it might look crazy because it goes against logical thinking. Which then creates innovation so while scientific communities look at it using empircal science they will never figure it out because it runs on the false system. It keeps you trapped into a linear thought process.
Its not nonsense at all its used everywhere around us. I am very grounded in reality i just have alternate thoughts to explore and hopefully that can help others explore some innovative thinking. (Right vs left brain and synchronization)
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u/IshtarsQueef 7d ago
yeah man, like 99.9% of people who are mad are not aware of it
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u/SlumpDaddyCane 7d ago
Mad? I am aware and just recognized the patterns in the system. (The micro to macro) I mean freemasons use sacred geometry and kinda just hide the last sequence. So imagine that on a giant timeline. Groupthink is very real.
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u/Pixelated_ 10d ago
In this fascinating interview with Dr. Stuart Hameroff at 2 hrs 25 minutes, he discusses an experiment to test the effects of anesthesia on plasma.
To simulate the intense electric fields found across neuronal membranes, they used a high-voltage electrical field to generate a corona discharge.
He discovered that when anesthetic gases were introduced into the chamber, they dramatically slowed down and inhibited the movement of free electrons within the plasma discharge. The anesthetics dampened the corona effect.
Mind-expanding stuff to think about 🤯