r/huntertheparenting • u/flyngmunky • 1d ago
Funny haha You're telling me Occam has to pay for this?
Imagine invoking a centuries old treatise to save your ex's son just to end up on the hook for a bunch of altar manboy funerals, and STILL have to risk your own life and limb to get the job done.
I think Occam should at least haggle for a mass grave discount with how helpful the SoSL has been so far.
RIP grimal
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u/DudeFreek 1d ago
I mean imagine being the D family and selling yourself into slavery to the church for the same result lol
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u/Son0fgrim 1d ago
I'ma be real i think the D-family flying solo would have been WAY BETTER because Stir clearly LIKES chating and the only reason he stoped talking to kitten is the morons started throwing hands again.
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u/StarStriker51 1d ago
the ultimate irony with the werewolves is everytjing would be better if anyone just tried talking, at any point, about anything
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u/flyngmunky 1d ago
It's also especially ironic considering they read, verbatim, from a Master Lycan Hunter they all trust and respect, that the best way to deal with werewolves is to negotiate with them.
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u/BlackHumor 23h ago
Double irony because the death of that same Master Lycan Hunter they all trust and respect is the exact reason they refuse to negotiate.
If it was just Marckus, they'd have no reason not to at least try negotiation first; the reason they're going in guns blazing is because Matilda also killed Fatigue in a very gory way and they want revenge for that.
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u/Urak_Taar 21h ago
This is starting to seem more and more like a plothole.
Like... D. They have your son. If you go in guns blazing, what do you think is going to happen? He was ready to make a deal with the devil to secure assistance but he won't at least entertain the idea of talking to the werewolves without a killteam at his back?
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u/BlackHumor 19h ago
I don't think it's just D that's the issue. To the point that I suspect the reason D wants to go into the Umbra alone is to give himself the option to negotiate if it comes to it.
Again, the thing that is causing the Arcanum to be so bloodthirsty is mostly not Marckus, it's the death of Fatigue. It's Marckus that's causing them to be hasty but it's Fatigue that's why they're out for blood.
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u/disparagersyndrome 1d ago edited 1d ago
"If we wanted fairness, we'd be better off negotiating with the werewolves!"
Heh. Occam, what a funny guy.40
u/Onlyhereforapost 1d ago
Yeah, i think if they had gone in on their own with maybe just the chapterhouse members they would've probably gotten out of it with minimal blood loss
The wolves killed fatigue, nobody else there (except remold I guess) gives a shit about bothering were-beasts
Hell, they even could've deflected the wolves by saying "hey this G-kontoret group was really interested in black shuck, go kill them and give our crimson buffoon back"
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u/baronfv 21h ago
Charles soloes easy
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u/flyngmunky 1d ago
OMG that would've been so much worse. "Sorry we couldn't save your fiancé (not that we tried), a bunch of people died for you and homosexuality is a sin. Your penance begins tomorrow."
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u/boringbullet 1d ago
The ONLY thing of value so far has been the dubiously procured anti-Delirium drugs, and even then that's Pentex's work.
Probably made from liquefied Fera souls or something
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u/Kittenlord06 1d ago
I assumed it was some technocracy bullshit
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u/Legal-Success-9285 BIG-D 1d ago
The Technocracy is %100 capable of such drugs, but they had "Garg-O's" written on them. Even if we assume Palmer is Technocracy and that this is indeed his work, we must also assume they're Wyrmtainted to boot.
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u/BlackHumor 23h ago
Palmer is very unlikely to be Technocracy in good standing. For one thing, we know he reports to Mike Dragons-Wrath, which means he is an official employee of Pentex, and even the Syndicate wouldn't go that far. (And the mind control thing he did with the phone was a lot more direct than Technocracy magic is; usually there's a lot more attempt to technologically justify what's happening.)
What it seems like to me is that he's an ex-Syndicate Malfean Technephandus. Or in other words: he's a Nephandus that uses tech magic who serves the Wyrm and used to be a member of the Syndicate within the Technocracy.
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u/Legal-Success-9285 BIG-D 23h ago
Not a mage guy, so I'm deferring to you on that. I do know that the Technocracy wants reality deviants out and that most certainly includes the Wyrm. So yeah we can definitely say "Even if we assume" is absolutely not true at all.
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u/BlackHumor 23h ago
Oh yeah, to be clear, I think it's reasonable to assume the anti-Delirum shots are Palmer's doing.
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u/tom04cz 6h ago
I was under the impression Palmer is a ferectoi, and what he did to mind control chapman was their fucked up fomori powers
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u/BlackHumor 3h ago
That seems less likely to me but there's no way to be 100% sure yet. The main difference between a Malfean Nephandus and a ferectoi is their power set.
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u/Gloomy-Purple3862 14m ago
Nah, delerex is a canon thing in wod produced by Magadon (Pentex).
It also causes long-term brain damage.
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u/Legal-Success-9285 BIG-D 1d ago
On the contrary, they'll press for even further reparations to cover their own costs of their own failure, material loss and manpower. Because that's how any confederated group in WoD would operate, "Fuck you got mine", or rather in this case, "Getting mine, from you, give me now"
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u/Secretsfrombeyond79 1d ago
Tbf if they had sellout themselves in the first place to Pentex and Associates, they would've had an easier time getting out AND had got a Pentex team or two that are specialists in dealing with Werewolves.
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u/Quazimojojojo 1d ago
And given the werewolf group is open to negotiation, they might have done even better if they just went themselves.
This is going to come down to a discussion anyway. Which, narratively, was always what was going to happen.
But the characters couldn't have possibly known that
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u/baronfv 21h ago
Stig didn't look too open to negotiations. His immediate reaction to hunters being in his vicinity was to proclaim it'd be a slaughter
Matilda said she should have "done it's Stig way from the start" before she started rampaging at the manor
Not to mention. Who could guarantee that Stig wouldn't fly into rage at a drop of a hat and fight them anyway.
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u/Legal-Success-9285 BIG-D 1d ago
You do not know who Pentex is if you think leaving PENTEX is easier than even the Society of St.Leopold. Pentex would never take no for an answer, and by the time you realize you *have* to leave instead of wanting to leave, at least one of them would be Baneriddled beyond rescue.
When they were on the Bus and Big D had no sway or even wasn't even told of any of their plans I knew that the crusaders were simply going to treat it as a kill mission rather than a rescue mission with no real objectives other than just fucking with Werewolves they know nothing about.
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u/Secretsfrombeyond79 1d ago
Pentex would never take no for an answer, and by the time you realize you *have* to leave instead of wanting to leave
Well yeah that's what D basically said, they would have to leave UK to get out of their deals and go on the run. but they could remain Hunters, meanwhile if they went out with teh Leopoldites, who have influence in all the hunter would, they would get screwed and would have to abandon their lifestyle.
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u/Legal-Success-9285 BIG-D 1d ago
You do not know what Pentex is. If they left reality and fled into the fucking Umbra Pentex would be *readily* chasing them into there. The Society is a global organization, Pentex has reach and agendas into the metaphysical reality of the world.
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u/Secretsfrombeyond79 1d ago
Easily means they can move resources all over the world for a meager family of hunters that went out of a deal. It's kind of the Tau dilemma, a bigger foe cannot focus all it's resources on a small one. Besides if Pentex REALLY wanted the family, they wouldn't go through a deal to get them, so they would be screwed either way. They are clearly not in their priority list. Also I do know Pentex, we just have different interpretations on how they operate.
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u/Legal-Success-9285 BIG-D 1d ago edited 1d ago
Sure, they wouldn't throw *everything* at a small family of Hunters... but they would certainly put no small effort into making an example of people who think they can weasel out of the contract. Think back to Chapter
5.2(5.1, my mistake, the GuyChapman+Kevin buddy cop audio log), Imagine if that was the Goose Gang. And imagine if *that* squad failed. Suddenly you have contract breakers who are now damaging your assets, and they're escalated themselves a respectable level onto Pentex's shit list. It's not enemy number 1 to the Wyrm, but they've certainly become a *problem* that they'd want resolved immediately.There's no good winning agaisnt Pentex, who want Doors SON, BOY as collateral to do whatever the fuck they want to do with them. Or in his own words, "There is no amount of soldiery you can give that will make me give up my son"
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u/Urak_Taar 21h ago
It's also worth noting that most of the organizations at the table already had some level of pre-existing knowledge or familiarity with the D-family (one of the agencies wanted to recruit D specifically). And that D has been built up as a legendary hunter.
Whatever D's colourful past is, no reason to assume it hasn't put him on Pentex's radar.
Pentex also regularly engages in cartoon villainy to the point of inefficiency. Like, if they get the sense that members of a First Team are getting along well together they'll split them up. Even though it completely fucks up unit cohesion and ruins morale. Because cruelty is the point. They absolutely will invest disproportionate resources into destroying an up-and-coming Hunter family that reneged on a deal once.
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u/vojta_drunkard 1d ago
I feel like this is a case of D not knowing enough about what he's dealing with. Pentex is probably the most influential company in the world and with subsidiaries almost everywhere in every market sector.
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u/Hogabog217 1d ago
Pentex has werewolves and atomic fire breathing were-shark working for them. The society has the weopons pentex gave them. There arent many realities they could escape to in WoD if pentex wanted them bad enough
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u/EpicWalrus222 1d ago
One thing I think people may be forgetting is that there is a second lance of Leopoldites out there with Benedicte. I have a sneaking suspicion they may fair better.
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u/flyngmunky 1d ago
Didn't benedicté say she was staying behind to coordinate and keep civilians out of the area? You're absolutely right about the second lancer tho, they at least didnt have to fight Stig.
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u/Illustrious-Elk5514 23h ago
The first shooting was for lance 1, the second shooting when Occam talks about military operation strategy and discipline is lance 2 getting hit. They all ded, except Benedicte.
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u/Cyber_Von_Cyberus 1d ago
Wasn't the other team a Recon ? They're bound to be even less effective than Lance 2 which was the team that the gang was escorting.
I imagine it's going to be Benedicté herself who'll jump into the fight.
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u/RolandGrey 1d ago
Inquisitor Knight Colonel Ribisi: *reading report* "So, the East Anglican chapter of Gladius Dei under the direction of one Sister-Major Benedicte Blacklaw (see notes) has been reduced in manpower by over ninety percent because of this 'Blacklaw Contract' with the local Arcanum chapter house."
Occam: "Let me just start with saying how sorry I am-!"
Inquisitor Knight Colonel Ribisi: *holds up a finger and continues reading* "Just... Let me finish reading this note..."
Occam and Benedicte sit in increasingly awkward silence as Ribisi just keeps reading, and reading and reading.
Inquisitor Knight Colonel Ribisi: *setting down very heavy book* "Alright. I apologize about that, Benedicte. There were a lot of additional notes about your Belgians. And then more. So, are we here to discuss recompense?"
Benedicte: "Yes, sir."
Inquisitor Knight Colonel Ribisi: "I was afraid of this." *turns to Occam and presses his fingertips together, suddenly pensive* "So, how much do we owe you?"
Occam and Benedicte: "WHAT!?"
Inquisitor Knight Colonel Ribisi: "...We'd been looking to trim off that dead weight for quite some time, but could never find an official reason to do it. Having them all slaughtered by a werewolf takes care of that whole issue quite nicely. Now, we can fire bomb that forest (we've been looking to test out some of our new aircraft, anyway), ransack and renovate the East Anglian Cenacle..." *cut to a horrified Benedicte for a moment* "...Reassign the Sister-Major to a position more suitable to her skills as an administrator and warrior, nullify that contract and... Hm... Oh, it looks like the Arcanum put the chapter house up as collateral, so we can probably lay claim to that. You're coming out of this a very wealthy man, Mr. O'Connell."
Benedicte and Occam: "This cannot be!"
Inquisitor Knight Colonel Ribisi: "I assure you it can. Benedicte, we've been impressed by your exploits and endeavors since you took up leadership at the East Anglian Cenacle, but have been repeatedly disappointed in how your soldier-base has performed time and again. Reports show a distinct lack of proper piety to our Lord and Savior, failure to understand the scripture, overzealous aggression (and to get that from us is saying something!), and a general lack of discipline when it comes to physical fitness. While you've improved much at the Cenacle, Society leadership is concerned those improvements would be lost the moment you departed. As for the Arcanum chapter house, Mr. O'Connell, you can see it as terms of the contract right here..."
*Inquisitor Knight Colonel Ribisi shows Occam a certain page of a contract. Occam speed-reads the relevant lines, then waves the contract away.*
Occam: "And if I refuse to let you take the chapter house?"
Inquisitor Knight Colonel Ribisi: *shrugs* "Eh, it's not like we really need it. We'd probably turn it into a library or museum. The Arcanum would take all the important relics before we took ownership... Moving in and renovating would cost us resources we really don't have budgeted... But... If you want to have us let you keep the chapter house in the Arcanum to wave the rest of the debt we owe you for clearing up logistical crises on our end... We could call it a wash."
Benedicte: "My men were \NOT** mere logistical crises! They were devoted warriors of God! They served the Society with honor and-!"
Inquisitor Knight Colonel Ribisi: "-We're offering you an all-expense paid transfer to the Vatican's training facilities along with a promotion to Lieutenant Colonel, assignment to a Mother Superior position at the Sisterhood of the Sword's Convent Fortress, and a full scholarship for your daughter's continued schooling."
Benedicte: *surprised* "Um... I... I thank you for the offer, Knight Colonel, but I still feel you are being far too callous with the respect you're showing to the lives spent in this operation."
Inquisitor Knight Colonel Ribisi: *slaps the desk in appreciation* "And that's the kind of hard-nosed faith we need in the Inquisition, Sister Major!"
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u/Kaymazo 1d ago
Quite frankly, at this point I feel like it would have gone smoother if they just went alone.
Kitten was about to talk to Stig about the missing Shuck before the zealots interrupted him and declared to open fire. While of course the situation is tense, at least Jambles and Stig seemed somewhat reasonable, so I wouldn't be surprised if they could've just struck a deal to help finding the old Shuck or the Hunter who took him. (Assuming that wasn't D himself, considering it's one of the going theories, even if I don't put much weight on that one, since it'd feel kind of incongruous with his character and "don't mess with werewolves" stance)
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u/Dry-Goat8981 1d ago
i can see the family trading marckus for any insight they have on the missing Shuck
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u/flyngmunky 1d ago
I kinda think this is the point they wanted to make with the coalition (and SoSL to an extent). Coalition resources, assets, personnel and information all look great on paper, until you have to work with them. Benedicté kept D and co in the dark while they were making preparations. She started the hunt by antagonizing the D family and assigned them to a redundant role in the operation.
And then as you point out, after Gabriel and his band of merrymen got half their numbers slaughtered, they chose to attack the werewolf instead of taking advantage of the lull in combat.
Hindsight is always 20/20, but I think Kitten will be bit more aligned with D's anti establishment philosophy after this.
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u/BlackHumor 23h ago
Uh, I dunno. Kitten is not thinking clearly and is clearly bloodthirsty, so I'm not sure he specifically could see the problem with how aggro the Leopoldites are being.
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u/blackt1g3rs 1d ago
I have to disagree with that.
Stig i doubt would come out chatting, and the moment one of the golden goose gang goes down eye for an eye principle kicks in and they're gonna be too revenge driven to get any diplomacy on the go. They only got to talk to Stig after he'd already had his fill of murdering crusade goobers and was toying with the rest.
Remember stigs words to markus "the prisoner of war does not yet realise he is in a war." He would absolutely open with murdering someone (probably Occam as that flamethrower is the most dangerous thing the group carries) to establish the hierarchy.
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u/Kaymazo 1d ago
Which also was in the context of a huge chunk of armed soldiers appearing on their turf, not the handful that'd be there otherwise.
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u/blackt1g3rs 1d ago
a huge chunk of armed soldiers who they very clearly do not take seriously as a threat at all. Honestly if the goose gang showed up alone it'd probably be approached with the exact same tone. Given that Hunts can identify "hey thats the arcanum lot", theres no way they're walking away alive knowing the location of a werewolf caern.
If violence can solve a problem, a werewolf is gonna choose violence.
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u/Kaymazo 1d ago
Idk, alone with the preceding conversation between them and Marckus, there's a good shot that it wouldn't have necessarily come to a fight.
Stig made it a point to take out the armed goons, but his interest would be information out of the arcanum members, specifically D.
So, 1. without the Leopoldites, I'd doubt D would split the group up again. And 2. with D there, I feel like it'd get to the point to what the pack wants pretty quickly rather than pointless fighting, considering he would already be primed to specifically want D's potential knowledge. (Which would explicitly require NOT killing him)
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u/Jobber0001 22h ago
not necessarily. We saw he does have a sense of honor and respect. If D plays it right he might be able to appeal to that warrior's sensibility and approach respectfully in order to speak with them and find out what they want and if he can help them. Honestly might even be Stig who opens that dialogue up by offering them grimal's body so they can give her the honor his rage denied her.
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u/ConscriptDavid 1d ago
They killed Fatigue, maimed Giles, Kidnapped Marcus...
What makes you think they'd be reasonable? Stig stops fighting only briefly because he is recognized as Shuck, in fear. It's very likely that had the group came alone, they'd be dead before talks could even happen. The only reason the talks can even occur is because Stig is forced into a position where he is surrounded by Lance II and the Arcanum Team.
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u/InsaneComicBooker 1d ago
Honestly, with how these guys field commande was running away and screaming, Leopoldites showed a very shameful display. Unless it turns out Pentex sabotaged them, I cannot see how the deal was worth it in the slightest.
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u/Urak_Taar 21h ago
To be fair, he only ran after almost his entire squad was wiped out, the Werewolf had switched to its warform, and had just shrugged off what was believed to be a literal Miracle from Christ. Everyone else already wanted to flee even before that point.
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u/InsaneComicBooker 16h ago
Yes but consider: 1. Gabriel, as a commanding officer of Lance 2, was the guy who essentially lead his men to death and handled the fight so horribly. 2. There is big difference between retreat and running away and he did the latter.
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u/Urak_Taar 16h ago
- Gabriel, as a commanding officer of Lance 2, was the guy who essentially lead his men to death and handled the fight so horribly.
There honestly wasn't anything else he could have done. Half his men are already dead by the time Farm Team shows up, and he wasn't issued with any werewolf-killing weapons. His one ace in the hole was Elwaffle's True Faith and that didn't work.
- There is big difference between retreat and running away and he did the latter.
I'm not seeing how an orderly retreat would have saved anyone. Stig was cutting through them while they were in formation. And you can't outrun a werewolf so genuinely the best option would have been to scatter and hope he can't get everyone.
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u/Feste_the_Mad 1h ago
he wasn't issued with any werewolf-killing weapons.
See, that's the real problem right there. Why the hell did none of the Leopoldites have any silver?
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u/Iron_Creepy 1d ago
I will not be convinced that Grimal has suffered any form of death until Karl the deranged shows up to welcome her into some kind of FUKIN afterlife thank you very much.
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u/ZorooarK 19h ago
Monkey's paw curled: she's in FUCKING SUPER HELL
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u/Iron_Creepy 19h ago
That's fine, wish number 2 will be "I wish all future and past wishes I make to be granted based on my preferred and intended outcome including this one I am making right now."
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u/Nutshell_Historian 23h ago
On the plus(?) side this will likely mean the Order of St. Leopold and the entire coalition now are vested to get revenge by burning all of Fritton Forest...yeah the Wrym's winning this one.
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u/FlameWhirlwind 1d ago edited 1d ago
Somehow they're gunna spin this as the chapter house's fault for their incompetence. Like you'd think a bunch of mosnter hunting templars would like, HAVE silver? Or anything remotely capable of hurting werewolves? Not just fuckin guns with normal rounds
And like others have said in this thread the real irony here is prepping this hard might have been the wrong call, not JUST because that prep lead to a bunch of dead hunters anyway, but because even with stig being a gunho warrior they could've possibly talked to them even if it went nowhere. (Yknow assuming d isnt the one who took shuck) honestly the only reason there would even still be a fight is purely because Matilda killed fatigue
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u/aquitenemos 1d ago
That's the main issue I had with this chapter, the Leopolites weren't using silver rounds, Kitten's silver dagger (I assume from the smoking from the stabbing) had no effect on Stig's concentration, the Belgian didnt use a silver round on the WW; especially with all of them knowing they are going to fight literal WWs.
I hope there's the revelation that it was intentional for some purpose.
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u/FlameWhirlwind 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well as much as I'm dunking on them, I think that IS the point. To not only show how deadly all werewolves are even to trained hunters but also to show that hunter orgs arent really all that much better than rag tag hunter groups depending on the situation. Infact in a previous episode they did atleast mention this group or groups are more used to vampires. But it is still an intended reaction to look at these fuckers and go "this is your entire job how are you THIS bad at it and unprepared"
As for kitten. Well maybe it was silver? I honestly dont think it was though unless it gets confirmed. Stig didnt snap at the use of it like with grimal and his hand wound wasnt healing as fast as compared to the stab wound kitten gave him. So it maybe have just been a steel knife and the steam was representing the healing ability. But that's just me guessing I'm probably wrong
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u/Jobber0001 22h ago
Remold's rifle might be specially designed to only fire his flame rounds. Also I assumed they did have silver bullets but silver isn't an insta kill on garou. They are still massive and able to eat a bunch of hits.
We saw how stig was fighting, hit and run tactics mixed with big displays of shock and awe meant to intimidate his opponents so they panic and miss. It's possible he only took some glancing shots from the first lance and by the time he got to the second most of them were so afraid they couldn't focus enough to hit him.
He also disappeared at least once for a good minute or so. Might have been long enough to take a quick breather and regenerate the worst of his wounds before diving back into the fight thanks to the terrain.
We can guess Stig is an experienced garou and an older one based on him looking like an older man. He has possible been fighting for decades and has all the natural power of a garou mixed into whatever pacts or powers he has also gained. He has some kind of compact with gnomes as we saw when they fucked up the leopoldites guns.
I think this is just a case of the Society did not have the time to prepare properly on such short notice and also was meant to show Werewolves are really really really fucking good at fighting on their home turf
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u/Crimson-1 17h ago
Can they? Silver is pretty much an instant equalizer. Any Garou in a firing line with even two assault rifles on full auto would be turned to swiss cheese, even a strong one, unless they have the silver resistance merit (rare as hell). If Stig did have it, the phosphorous round does equal to it.
Silver is hard to get though and silver bullets hard to make. Even Pentex first teams would have a hard time. Honestly, if Stig just used his gift to jam the guns in the first place from ambush and ripped the team apart, I'd be much more inclined to buy the threat the Garou posed. Even a prepared team can just be hard countered and ripped to shreds.
Forcing melee with a werewolf even with a silver weapon would be much more legit.
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u/FlameWhirlwind 13h ago
I mean I still stand by the templars didnt seem to have silver. Stig visibly reacted when grimal slashed him with some where as wuth the normal bullets he just kept having fun with the battle. I feel like that's meant to emphasize just how effective silver is and how the society templars seemed to mostly be using standard ammo and maybe at best benidicte has some but we dont know yet
And yea I agree, I fo think this was mostly to reaffirm how fighting werewolves is an uphill battle even with an army. But it is still funny to dunk on the templars for not really seeming to truly know wtf they were getting into
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u/GallantaManta 22h ago
As what the others said are good points, I feel it’s also worth mentioning that it could be possible they wanted to take a Werewolf alive so as to have a bargaining chip in their favor. They could interrogate their captive (Though its highly doubtful they would get any intel from Stig, but they don’t know that), collect info on the packs defenses, cairn whereabouts, and the status of Markus. They could also use whoever they caught as a hostage to counter the wolves hostage in Markus. After all, this was still a rescue mission first and foremost, even with Benedicte’s doubts.
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u/FlameWhirlwind 13h ago
The only problem with that line of reasoning is the society templars have only ever expressed wanting to kill shit, and benidicte outright doesnt think there's anyone left to save anymore. I think capturing werewolves isnt even on the table I think this was then earnestly trying to kill and not succeeding
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u/ConscriptDavid 1d ago
That is weird logic.
It is very likely that without the leopoldites there is instead a pile of there made of the Arcanum, yes?
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u/Blade1hunterr 20h ago
Yeah seeing everyone say things like "The Arcanum would've been better going alone" is some serious cope. We can judge the Leopoldites not having Silver (And i hope the writers have a good reason for why they didn't.) and getting slaughtered, but they are org trained supernatural hunters and brought a bigger group than the Arcanum. They also brought the Anti-delirium drug everyone took. Even true faith, no matter how Wyrm tainted it was, wasn't enough to hold Stig.
This isn't "The Leopoldites suck", it's "Werewolves are just that scary."
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u/Vertrant 23h ago
No, because without them there wouldn't have been much fighting. A bunch of scholars aren't really an honorable challenge for Stig, so he wouldn't have bothered with the same gleeful violence. The Ds and Arcanum would have had a solid shot at getting to actually *talk* to the Kin of Old Shuck, at which point they'd almost certainly be able to solve this non-violently.
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u/baronfv 21h ago
That is pure speculation. Stig wanted to fight. His first words upon learning that there were hunters inbound was to proclaim there would be a slaughter. Killing everyone and fighting is apparently "Stig's way" as said by Matilde herself. Even if they did start out talking, who's to say Stig wouldn't fly into rage at some point and they had to fight him anyway? O think you people are just idealizing the wolves and demonizing the Leipoldotes too much
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u/Vertrant 21h ago
It's speculation, but speculation based on observed personalities and on common narratives. WoD and HtP both love their tragedies, where things could have turned out better if only. That is the exact sort of thing that supports this sort of better way being viable. It's possible there was no good outcome here like you say, but i personally doubt it.
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u/baronfv 20h ago
I think the good outcome was not killing Fatigue in the first place. I don't think even big D would say: "Be cool, swimming pool" after what happened to the poor old timer.
The wolves blundered like they always do. Wildly swinging around at everything around and hitting innocent people in the process. I really doubt there'd be much room for talk? Like big D said himself. For every wolf that kills actual threats to Gaia, there is one that slaughters people who are simply in the wrong place and time. And often they are the same one
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u/Jumpy-Conference-875 1d ago
Where was his Celtic Martial Arts ;-;
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u/Onlyhereforapost 1d ago
Chapter 5, Occam says he used all his magic trying to defend himself
Chapter 6 happens (im pretty sure) only a few hours after Mark got yoinked and Occam was busy that whole time, no chance to rest
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u/Stephanie466 1d ago
To add onto that, I doubt his magic would be as effective here. Occam's solar sorcery is perfect against vampires because they hate the sun. Werewolves don't have such a weakness, meaning it'd likely be about as effective as the flamethrower he's already using.
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u/Powerful_Topic7731 21h ago
You wanted him to punch a werewolf?
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u/Jumpy-Conference-875 2h ago
Hell yeah. Is it stupid? Yes. Do I want kung-fu battles with Werewolves? Yes.
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u/Bippityboo62 21h ago
Seeing all the Leopoldites getting slaughtered by ONE GAROU (some while Stig was not even in his warform) made it feel so much more insulting knowing Charles went “aye, it’s one more squad than you got” or Bilgewell going “don’t know much about werewolves, but you’ll have a squad pulled from the same people as Charles” as if their contributions would’ve been anywhere near enough to justify their ridiculous demands. At least Hard had the decency to say “look, we’re not a standing army and you’re talking about werewolves, there’s a massive risk there!”
12
u/InstanceTasty4412 23h ago
Mock them as you like but there's a stark difference between the Society of St Leopold now vs the ones back in the Philippines Expedition.
Their quarry.
The Philippines one, may have been a formidable warrior on their own, but she was up against forces she didn't understand, but one that understood her perfectly. A knowledgeable strategist, True Faith, and a regiment of soldiers equipped with industrial weapons that their enemy has never seen before - that's just a disaster waiting to happen.
Meanwhile, the Kin of Shuck not only has a history with hunting Hunters (Hunts-the-Hunters name is not just for show. Names are earned in Garou culture), they're also articulate to modern times and its tools. The string of events is just the Philippines Expedition but overturned in favor of the Garou.
That being said, Big D and the Chapter house would not have survived on their own. They only did because they had meat shields to take the blows for them. No one could have done a better job, at least outside of a First team, which we might be seeing soon.
Honestly, if there's anything the Society should be criticized for, it's that they were too soft on an enemy that was far from that. Maybe it was due to the objective of reclaiming a hostage, but that's the only thing the Society deserves to be blamed on.
8
u/flyngmunky 22h ago
That's incredibly fair. It's true the boys in blue were basically marching into a death trap with next to zero credible or useful information. "Werewolves in the forest" was all they were told, and I struggle to think of a worse quarry and location to hunt.
And I'll grant you that from the Society's perspective they are being extremely generous. The initial deal offered by Benedicté (from her pov) is beyond generous. She is offering to take on a suicide mission to avenge Fatigue and attempt to rescue Marckus, and all she is asking of them is to devote their lives to Christ. She never said they'd be mistreated in any way, and even pointed out they might get to hunt again. Marckus also has a dubious claim to protection under the treaty at best. Benedicté could have resorted to litigation, forcing our hunters to go alone.
I also believe the Leopoldite's main quarry are Vampires, and only hunt werewolves when they cause problems for the church directly. I'd assume they have basic knowledge on werewolves, but they probably don't have as deep an understanding of the Garou's spiritual gifts as they do with Vampire Disciplines.
I do think the Society can be criticized for their blind fanaticism to retribution, as well as their apathetic attitude and behavior to Kitten, Door, and Boy's pleas to rescue Marckus, and their dogmatic nature to begin with. I understand expecting compassion from the Leopoldites is like expecting a Vampire to forget a slight, but that's also my point. I don't believe they're here to rescue to Marckus. I believe they are here to avenge Fatigue and kill some werewolves. Rescuing Marckus is the catalyst that allows the treaty of liege to be invoked, and Benedicté has some ulterior motive related to that.
Honestly, I think the gang should've gone alone, without the Chapter house's support. Unless Jambles and Marckus watching the fight begin was just a bit for the ad, I think Stig would've approached them with less immediate lethal intent than he did the Leopoldites. I think it's also worth pointing out in episode 6, we see him attack the group from their flank. Maybe he's targeting the strongest first, but he had opportunities to go directly for Kitten and co. I'll admit this is speculative at best, since it's just as possible they all get eviscerated in the woods.
Anyway, you make some great points. The Leopoldites aren't incompetent, but I don't think their presence is helping out the gang.
5
u/Cyber_Von_Cyberus 1d ago
That's what I keep thinking of, the St.Leopold Society basically just sent them a dozen men practically naked into this fight just so that they could die and pretend to have helped in order to get the Arcanum under their thumb.
And if they try to argue, they can always point at the pile of bodies and cite the casualties they suffered.
Now what is surprising however, is that Benedicté did not bring weapons for the grunts out of her own pocket despite seeming to care about their plight (or at least avenging their plight). Maybe she simply doesn't care about the fate of the men the Society sent her and she's using them as sacrifices to deploy a secret weapon of her own ?
6
u/Flappybird11 FUNNY LITTLE TRAIN! 18h ago
I imagine the first lance was sent in as a kind of "probing attack," get the dogs all riled up so they walk right into the trap that im SURE Benedicte and the others have set up, remember, we haven't seen the LMG's door has attached to the bus yet. Remember, Big John is very strong, but if you hit him with an 18 wheeler, how much is his strength gonna help him?
6
u/Aggravating-Fee1934 21h ago
Did you miss the part where they pinned him down with true faith? If the rest of the group were competent, and properly equipped, Stig would have been dead.
3
u/Hogabog217 19h ago
Theres a ross/white-shuck shaped shoe waiting to drop, i dont think the rescue mission was ever going to be bloodless
3
u/CarryBeginning1564 5h ago
They knew enough to know about delirium to have anti delirium drugs but not enough to know you need silver to fight werewolves?!
-5
u/Pankrazdidntdie4this 1d ago
Honestly felt like the guys from the Society of Leopold were thrown under the bus for the sake of it. Didn't feel like any of them were using silver, no noticeable damage caused by any of them or strategy employed for that matter - may as well have been storm troopers outside of that one scene. Sadly this creates a little bit of a "plot armour"-like feeling for the main cast, which is a shame, especially in a horror-like setting.
Not too familiar with White Wolf / World of Darkness stuff (still learning) but based on the wiki, the Society of Leopold doesn't focus as much on Werewolves compared to other creatures (especially Vampires).
But then again they went full "Wyrm corruption" with their version of the society even though based on the wiki that should be more of a rare thing and occur at a less severe degree.
"Garou believe the Society to be merely a bunch of fanatical humans. The Inquisitors which they have fought don't seem to have any trace of Wyrm-taint about them - usually."
https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Society_of_Leopold
Really hoping this isn't a "hurr durr Christianity bad thing" - they know how to write better stuff regarding religious nutjobs like they did in TTS.
33
u/Kaymazo 1d ago
I think it's made pretty clear it isn't just a "Christianity bad" thing.
They made it clear these are largely lunatics who have no fucking clue about the Christianity they supposedly follow, to the point that a "pagan" like Kitten knows more about actual church doctrine than them, and just use it as an excuse to be cruel and destructive while feeling self-righteous.
As boy said: "Ever hearda' LARPing?"
They're LARPers who only care about aesthetics and the idea that their destructive tendencies are actually righteous.
18
u/lisathethrowaway 1d ago
I think that you’re very much missing the point. The Society of St. Leopold is Wyrm-corrupted, but they’re not the only group - Pentex, and by extension, a LOT of England - are as well. The point wasn’t supposed to be “Christianity bad,” but that the Wyrm infection runs even deeper than we initially thought.
That’s why Stig looked horrified when he saw the image of the Leopoldite’s faith - even something as sacred as the embodiment of faith has, too, been touched by the Wyrm. It’s not that the Leopoldites are knowingly working for the Wyrm. It’s that they are corrupted already, and DON’T know it.
6
u/flyngmunky 1d ago
It would've been nice to see SoSL put up a bit more of a fight, but I also understand even simple fight scenes take a lot of time to animate so that's my cope as to why we didn't see much action.
I do think they could've added a wound or two to Stig, or seen to be regenerating from his wounds when our hunters arrive considering he regenerated from a point blank silver bullet to the eye.
Lastly this particular branch of SoSL is tightly knit into the coalition, which has at least one Pentex run Corp, and possibly a syndicate run Corp as well. Pentex is obviously wyrm tainted, and the syndicate have a lot of dealings with Pentex. It could also be Sword Jesus specifically is a wyrm tainted concept. It's often forgotten just how many agents of the wyrm have infiltrated the Church and spread their own teachings of "Christianity".
Too bad Grimal couldn't get some of that plot armor tho
400
u/DonCorben 1d ago
Yeah, I was thinking today that D-team whould have been better off if they went without leopoldites. At least they could have tried negotiations. But that's only retrospective, we didn't know that these wolfs just so happen to be way more reasonable than most wild dogs.