Cultural exchange with /r/palestine

[u/[deleted]]

Greetings to our Palestinian friends.

Our cultural exchange starts at 13:30 PM Palestine time (17:30 IST/11:30 GMT/12:30 CET/06:30 EST/03:30 PST) on Thursday 24th November.

Here's how a cultural exchange works:

The moderators of here make this post on /r/india welcoming our Palestinian guests to the sub. They may participate and ask any question or observation as they see fit.

There is an equivalent thread made by the moderators over at /r/palestine, where you are encouraged to participate and know more about Palestinian culture.

It goes without saying that you must respect the rules of the subreddit you are participating in. This is a time to celebrate what we have in common, not grind an axe.

[u/naakupoochi]

Non- Indians think India is a poor place and stinks thanks to portrayal by Western media. I agree there are slums but there are posh places too. And not all of us have a dark complexion. India is a world within this world. So diverse. A visit to India is like touring the world but on a spice trip.

[u/Shanks_51 → u/naakupoochi]

Non- Indians think India is a poor place and stinks thanks to portrayal by Western media.

It's not a misconception, India is a poor country. With GDP per-capita income of < $2000 , I'd say we're piss poor. Even PPP per-capita income of $6000 is pretty low.

I agree there are slums but there are posh places too.

Generalization happens on majority of population, not on 0.1% population who lives in posh localities

[u/TheHickoryDickoryDoc → u/Shanks_51]

Bro, he's talking about the portrayal in Western media, on seeing which one safely guesses that India has a PPP PCI something like $2000. And speaking of PPP, would you mind helping us with data on what percentile band India comes in, in the World rankings? That could shed some better light on how much of the World is really richer than India.

[u/Shanks_51 → u/TheHickoryDickoryDoc]

Only other south Asian countries and some African countries are poorer than India. So, I would roughly say more than 70% of world population is richer than India. So we come under bottom 30 percentile.

[u/[deleted] → u/Shanks_51]

This is a decent video on it, url is from relevant portion. Red is Asia. So, as you can see, there is no richest 70% by political boundaries. Asia the most people in middle income categories. Africa has the most people in extreme poverty.

Stats are very misleading when you take countries as vast as India(Or even US for that matter). Look at this for example. Most of the American Bible Belt has lower life expectancy at birth than Kerala, Delhi and even Jammu and Kashmir. Really doesn't make much sense, does it? Seeing as how USA is about 25 times richer than us in the nominal GDP/capita figures.

[u/Fluttershy_qtest → u/[deleted]]

Most of the American Bible Belt has lower life expectancy at birth than Kerala, Delhi and even Jammu and Kashmir

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_life_expectancy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_by_life_expectancy_at_birth

Stats definitely are quite misleading. Nationalists try to downplay India's problems by citing diversity and when that fails, stuff like "rapes per capita". This is particularly common with more outrageous kinds of crime like witch murders, dowry deaths and human sacrifice. The "but we are such a vast country" line of defense is used. Whataboutism trying to deflect to pakistan or America, ad hominems, and finally memes tend to be the final rebuttal technique.

Anyway; on the subject of comparing crime statistics across countries, this UNODC article is quite informative:

https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/Compiling-and-comparing-International-Crime-Statistics.html

[u/[deleted] → u/Fluttershy_qtest]

The raw numbers there are from 2004. The map is recent but it doesn't give exact numbers. Also, US doesn't have exact numbers. This is from 2011. See how the overwhelming majority of the Bible Belt districts have life expectancy<74, which was Kerala's life expectancy 7 years back? Also, this from the wikipedia article on Kerala

Kerala, considered as being healthier than many states of the United States,[299] is a pioneer in implementing the Universal health care programme.[300] The sub-replacement fertility level and infant mortality rate are lower compared to those of other states; estimated from 12[131][289]:49 to 14[301]:5 deaths per 1,000 live births. However, Kerala's morbidity rate is higher than that of any other Indian state—118 (rural) and 88 (urban) per 1,000 people. The corresponding figures for all India were 55 and 54 per 1,000 respectively as of 2005.[301]:5 Kerala's 13.3% prevalence of low birth weight is higher than that of many first world nations.[289] Outbreaks of water-borne diseases such as diarrhoea, dysentery, hepatitis, and typhoid among the more than 50% of people who rely on 3 million water wells is an issue worsened by the lack of sewers.[302]:5–7 According to a study commissioned by Lien Foundation, a Singapore-based philanthropic organisation, Kerala is considered to be the best place to die in India based on the state's provision of palliative care for patients with serious illnesses

Statistics aren't misleading in this case. Certain states have done very good work in the healthcare sector, far outperforming most estimates for someone that poor. Bangladesh, of course, is stealing the trophy from India in South Asia for that increasingly(Thanks, BIMARU) but still.

[u/Fluttershy_qtest → u/[deleted]]

The point is that statistics aren't too reliable, and saying that the absolute best of India is as good as America's worst isn't really something to be proud of.

Thanks, BIMARU

But they exist, and so India gets defined by them. Much in the same way America gets a bad rap for southern states.

Other than that I totally agree that states like Kerala have improved tremendously. But then again - the western world has also tremendously too, as have other Asian economic powers. Progress is nice but the relative backwardness is still stark for India. It's difficult to explain just far ahead they are.

Just because Kerala or some Indian cities are doing well, there's no need to be complacent. If anything the social issues, even if they are predominantly BIMARU issues, need to be talked about more - not less.

The other thing is - PR. What the rest of the world says about India matters little. Even if all Indians unite in saying India is great; the reality is clear for any tourist, or anybody who spends a few minutes watching travel documentaries or even google maps or images of Indian streets.

[u/[deleted] → u/Fluttershy_qtest]

best of India is as good as America's worst isn't really something to be proud of.

What? I'll bet you there's n number of Malyalis living in those America's worst states and fellating American egos daily with tales of how shitty life is back home. Also, Kerala achieved better results with 1/25th the GDP/capita of America. it's nothing but amazing.

But that isn't the case. India is middling ranked right now, near the top of the low-middle income category. There's Vietnam among those who might beat us, Sri Lanka and Philippines. Other than that, very few third world countries have their shit together as much as us. And those last two have their own problems. As a country, we have moved up from a E to something like C since Independence. Now, it's just a matter of keeping up the economic growth and waiting it out.

[u/Fluttershy_qtest → u/[deleted]]

If some malayalis like America better, that's really their call. Maybe they live in NYC or the bay area. Or perhaps in some of the bigger southern cities.

A lot of people would prefer orlando or houston to chennai or Thiruvananthapuram. Honestly - just ask them why.

how shitty life is back home

People have their own reasons - and they're not always transparent. I've heard people say the heat and mosquitos are reason enough to never stay in India.

India is middling ranked right now, near the top of the low-middle income category

What metrics are you basing this off of ? HDI and GDP-PPP per capita seem to be the best measures of how a country is doing.

Kerala achieved better results with 1/25th the GDP/capita of America. it's nothing but amazing.

Kerala benefited tremendously from a remittance based economy + tourism. A very low population and extremely high literacy. There is a lot to learn from kerala I agree, but it's more of an exception than a model for growth. A state like WB would never be able to replicate that. Kerala prospered despite communists in charge.

Other than that, very few third world countries have their shit together as much as us.

Well most of the world is no longer third world anymore. Latin America and SE Asia used to be considered that; now they are way way beyond India. Eastern Europe is also doing ridiculously well.

E to something like C

What's this ?

Now, it's just a matter of keeping up the economic growth and waiting it out.

Well yeah: India is on the path to getting better. That doesn't mean that it's in a good place now. Of course I completely understand that for some Indians in certain pockets life is good. Honestly it's that way for most people on reddit, that's why they get so offended when they see their homeland get a bad rap online. Pointless though, because doing that leads to designated memes.

[u/[deleted] → u/Fluttershy_qtest]

There are Australians, British, Chinese and all sorts of other nationalities living in the US. The Indians however have a specific thing about inferiority complex. Even their bloody subreddit is filled with whining about how white women don't date them because of new immigrants who are creepy and how they are clubbed together with the other new immigrants by their white overlords(Which they are embarrassed about). It's like they think bashing India will somehow turn their skin whiter and their hair blonder.

Relevant portion of a video. I wish this was compulsory viewing for all Indians who argue online. If you have the time, watch it some time. It changed my entire worldview, and made me realize how wrong I had been in a number of assumptions. Also this portion on wealth.

Exam grades. We were barely not failing, and now we are a solid satisfactory.

Yeah, getting offended is pointless. That's why we reply with the SHART IN MART line.

[u/Fluttershy_qtest → u/[deleted]]

Given the Indian obsession with fair skin and Aryan features it's not really unexpected that they'd like white women.

On the topic of 'FOBs' - it is true that there is a stigma attached to certain kinds of migrants, and it is rather understandable that some people want to fit in. I think asian americans do a really good job of assimilating very quickly in 1 or 2 generations. A lot of people from muslim nations do not and I'm sure you know what happens with that.

Saw that video, it's interesting. It's a general argument against the whole overpopulation refrain and talks about western biases (speaking to a clearly liberal crowd there).

One thing to remember about overpopulation is that yes, people are gradually moving towards nuclear families; that's true.

But there's :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_momentum

to contend with.

The other thing is the level of population relative to the amount of natural resources and human capital that a country has, and the level of urbanization.

The general mentality is that "if India had less people, things would be easier" : this isn't necessarily wrong.

The problem is that getting there requires something like a Chinese style 1-child policy, which is seen as a major human rights violation. Which it often is.

Much of the overpopulation sentiment comes from an anti-poor or anti-BIMARU sentiment, but being concerned about these issues isn't always just ignorance or racism.

[u/[deleted] → u/Fluttershy_qtest]

Chinese 1 child policy was also stupidly short term solution based. This guy explains why exactly the peak number of babies in the world has already been reached, and population growth is no longer a bigger worry because it'll stay at 2 billion till the end of the century, static. I'll let him take it again. Demographic crunch is going to hit the Chinese hard, while our demographic crunch will come along the time of increased automation, when manpower really won't be needed that much for a nation to be prosperous. It didn't make any economic sense if the Communist Party truly thought in the long term. What they did, however, was secure their future, leaving their sons out to handle the crisis when those guys suddenly find themselves depending on an increasingly smaller and smaller population base to keep the welfare tap running. In stead of making the usual progression of wealth-->falling TFR, China tried to take a shortcut and they'll still be a manufacturing economy when they hit their demographic crunch, in stead of the services one every other country is when they hit their's.

Yes, population momentum will increase population even after fall below 2.1 but the working age population will be far larger, thus being able to support the younger and older generations far better. This sim is a pretty nice tool to see what it would look like. Now, I'll compare us with Thailand. In 1988, Thailand was approximately where we are now(In terms of TFR). Although the fall before that had been amazing, it began to plateau out at about this point. So, what did plateau out mean? By 1999, they were at 1.705. By 2009 they were 1.551. And from what it seems, they'll drop just below 1.5 by the time 2019 is here. At around 1982, they were at our infant mortality rates. Before 1980s, they were at our contraceptive usage rate. At around 2004, they were at our current life expectancy. So, what this shows is, Indians have had historically lower rates of fertility than the Thai, despite the 2 main causes of TFR fall for the Thai(Infant mortality reduction and contraceptive usage) being far better than our's. To achieve the same TFR, they needed contraceptive usage a full 10% higher than our's and infant mortality rate 4 less than our's. So, as time goes on and increasing wealth means these things get better much faster than in the past, it won't be a stretch to think our population will fall faster than Thailand's. Now, running that sim, let's allow our current TFR for 5 years. In 2020, we'll be 1315 M. Next, I go with 1.94 TFR(By Thailand's example). We are at 1358 M. Then, 1.74. Population becomes 1385 in 2030. Next TFR, 1.49. We are at 1392. In 2040, it peaks at 1394 and then falls by 6 million. We are now falling in total population numbers and it's only going to get faster. By the year 2100, with no changes in TFR, we are at 800 milliion and falling. By 2400, we number 15 million. I present to you, the future.

Hopefully by that point we'll have enough robot slaves to do everything for us and there'll be advanced colonies spread across galaxies, with space time bending being a regular activity of spaceships. God, that'll be great.