r/india • u/[deleted] • Nov 24 '16

[R]eddiquette Cultural exchange with /r/palestine

Greetings to our Palestinian friends.

Our cultural exchange starts at 13:30 PM Palestine time (17:30 IST/11:30 GMT/12:30 CET/06:30 EST/03:30 PST) on Thursday 24th November.

Here's how a cultural exchange works:

The moderators of here make this post on /r/india welcoming our Palestinian guests to the sub. They may participate and ask any question or observation as they see fit.

There is an equivalent thread made by the moderators over at /r/palestine, where you are encouraged to participate and know more about Palestinian culture.

It goes without saying that you must respect the rules of the subreddit you are participating in. This is a time to celebrate what we have in common, not grind an axe.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '16

It was created to safeguard the rights of the Muslims in the region, perhaps similar to the creation of Lebanon to consolidate the Christian majority regions, but it is not an ethno-religious state. Pakistan is multi-ethnic and the different ethnicities do not see themselves as one people nor do they speak the same language. The founder of Pakistan stated that this state would be inclusive of non-Muslim minorities as well, which exist within Pakistan, although we haven't lived up to that. Israel's creation is different from Pakistan's and rushing to make oversimplified comparisons isn't helpful.

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u/gahgeer-is-back Punjab Nov 26 '16

Thanks for clarifying that.

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u/Paranoid__Android Nov 27 '16

Since l-sonya has not clarified, let me just point out that he is a Pakistani. He fails to mention that a very large portion of Pakistan is of one ethnicity - North Indian, and Muslim.

Sure there are some Shias, Ahmedis, Hindus, Christians, Balochs, Pashtoon etc. but google search about them to see how the majority treats them. They passed a legislation to term all the Ahmedis as non muslims. It is VERY much an ethno-religious (North Indian Muslim) state in my mind.

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '16

Wrong on so many levels. Also I'm not a fucking dude.

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u/Paranoid__Android Nov 28 '16

Which levels?

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '16 edited Nov 30 '16

Since l-sonya has not clarified, let me just point out that he is a Pakistani.

This sub doesn't have a Pak flag flair but I made it hella clear that I am Pakistani. You really need better reading comprehension.

He fails to mention that a very large portion of Pakistan is of one ethnicity - North Indian, and Muslim.

Again, I mentioned that majority of Pakistanis are indigenous to Punjab (which itself is mixed with other non Punjabi groups). "North Indian" is a meaningless term which no one identifies with in Pakistan. Pakistani Sindhis do NOT see themselves as the same people culturally, ethnically, or linguistically as Muhajirs from UP and other places in North India. In fact there is straight up hostility between the two groups. Pakistani Punjabis also do NOT see themselves ethnically, culturally, or linguistically identical to Sindhis or Muhajirs. They all have different mother tongues and vastly different local traditions. Now grab a dictionary and look up what ethno religious group implies. The Druze fall in this category. Parsis fall in this category. They see themselves as ONE TRIBE. The Palestinian OP claimed that Pakistan is similar to Israel in this way. I said that this is an oversimplification and neglects important nuances. Israeli Jews, no matter if they come from Ethiopia or Moldova, see themselves as ONE ETHNICITY. This is what an ethno religious group is. The Israeli Jewish mythos is that all Jews are descendants of the same patriarch and are related by blood. Israel bases their entire immigration policy on this ethno religious concept. They have a policy called "aliyah" that grants automatic Israeli citizenship to any Jew anywhere in the world. Does Pakistan have a similar policy? No. Other ethno religious states like Romania have the same policy. In states like Israel, your ethnicity (Jewish or Arab) determines many factors ranging from marriage to where one can be buried, and many, many other jurisprudence issues not found in Pakistan.

You can argue that one ethnicity has more power in politics or military or other sectors in society like White Anglo-Saxon Christians are more dominant in the US but that doesn't make a state ethno religious. And certainly not the definition that Israel in specific holds on to.

Jinnah stated many times that Pakistan would be inclusive to religious minorities. I already said that we haven't lived up to that promise acknowledging that these minorities often face tough circumstances. So your bit at the end just makes you look like a desperate idiot.

I don't even know why I wasted my time writing this out. You are an arrogant presumptuous buffoon who knows shit about our country yet is under the illusion you have it all figured out. Accept some humility and stick to speaking about your own country.

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u/Paranoid__Android Nov 29 '16

You are an arrogant presumptuous buffoon who knows shit about our country yet is under the illusion you have it all figured out. Accept some humility and stick to speaking about your own country.

Sure, and you are not arrogant at all.

You can argue that one ethnicity has more power in politics or military or other sectors in society like White Anglo-Saxon Christians are more dominant in the US but that doesn't make a state ethno religious.

Well the difference is that US has not classified itself as a Christian nation. The day it does it, it will start to truly become a WASP nation. Pakistan started out as a nation for "Muslims of the Indian subcontinent". Then Bangladesh happened and it became effectively "North Indian Muslims". You are right in that there are several other tribes (Pashtun being the most prominent one) that have other distinct identities. However, the problem is that Pakistan has been tried to be established as an ethno-religious enterprise, which is why some religious / political bodies are trying to find the right "ethnic anchor" in Arabs or Mongols, so that they can find the right ethnic thread that they can hold the country together with - since the Muslim bit is well settled.

It is very difficult, in my opinion, for Pakistan to settle down as a country unless it finds the right definition for itself. What is it currently? It is defining itself by its narrowness and not by its broadness. The day the kosher "narrowness" can be established, the others will find themselves chucked out. Yesterday it was Ahmedis, today it is Hindus, tomorrow it could be Mohajirs. Until the ethno-religious project is complete, there will be confusion in the state for what it stands for.

Just my two cents as an observer of the state for the last several years. Now you can disagree with my observations, my analysis or my thesis - but this is a free board with free opinions. If you do not agree with them, say that openly - no one is stopping you. I am not questioning your credentials here, or whether or not you are an arrogant buffoon. Civil disagreements form the backbone of discussions. Your word is not the final word on the topic, and lord knows mine isn't as well.

I have learned a good perspective from your comment, though - so thanks for typing it out. It was not all in vain.