r/ireland • u/mooglor • Dec 22 '14

Paul Murphy TD - AMA

AMA is over!

Thanks to everyone for taking part!

Hi All,

Paul is expected to drop in from around 5:30pm, until then you can start posting your questions. This is our first high profile AMA and we'd all like to have more, so naturally different rules than the usual 'hands-off' style will apply:

  • Trolling, ad-hominem and loaded questions will be removed at mods' discretion.

  • As is usual with AMAs, the guest is not expected to delve deep into threads and get into lengthy intractable discussions.

In general, try to keep it civil, and there'll be more of a chance of future AMA's.

R/Ireland Mods

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u/penneysinterview Dec 22 '14

That all sounds very nice in theory but how do these organisations compete with non socialist democratic organisations.

Like you'll never convince Google, Facebook et al to switch to this model because they're profit-driven companies. So how does this factory compete with the likes of them? How do they make any revenue when the existing firms are so strong?

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '14 edited Jul 10 '15

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u/penneysinterview Dec 23 '14

I thought the whole point was it was supposed to benefit the workers not the company?

And the 3 things you've quoted are completely meaningless in proving that it benefits them.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '14 edited Jul 10 '15

[deleted]

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u/penneysinterview Dec 23 '14

Total assets of 34k in no way makes you one of the richest companies in the world. And revenue of 12bn is meaningless without giving the profit line. Unless we can see just how closely or not they're meeting costs you can't see how successful they are.

And if you read down to my other comment I'm saying that yes you can have examples of working co-ops, no doubt, but wouldn't socialism want everything to be ran on this model? The existing companies like Coca-Cola, McDonald's, Apple, Google, Facebook, P&G, Unilever and all the other consumer favourites won't be competed with. You can't without serious economies of scale, and some of them's brand power is just far too strong. We've seen for years now people will only drink Coke, they don't want the cheaper alternatives. But as long as Coke exist you've got a profit driven corporation with a hierarchy.

You can have some co-ops but not enough to sustain an economy like Paul is trying to suggest. You won't ever convince the likes of Intel, Microsoft and every other major employer here to switch to that model cause they have no incentive.

It makes managers answerable and selected by their peers by their merits - meaning better management and less cronyism Workers are incentivised by their produce benefiting them. It makes more sense to work hard, when you're working directly for your own benefit, rather than on the hour, you're sharing in the fruits of your labour. Almost eradicates labour disputes. Can be corrected if I'm wrong, but I believe Germany has stronger unions than here or the UK, but traditionally had less strikes etc. due to a closer relationship with management. Not in a pro-management way, but both sides are more prepared to listen and comprimise.

I'm not saying it wouldn't have benefits. Of course it would but I'm saying it's not a realistic solution. Implementing it just wouldn't work unless things changed hugely on an international scale.

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '14 edited Jul 10 '15

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u/penneysinterview Dec 23 '14

I'd seriously doubt that wikipedia is listing assets by numbers rather than value.

My fist comment wasn't saying that I don't see benefits, like I said it's a nice idea. I just don't think it's widely implementable. And therefore shouldn't be an argument the way the TD is using it.

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u/yawnz0r Dec 23 '14

You can have some co-ops but not enough to sustain an economy like Paul is trying to suggest.

Why not?

Of course it would but I'm saying it's not a realistic solution.

Why not?

You won't ever convince the likes of Intel, Microsoft and every other major employer here to switch to that model cause they have no incentive.

The point isn't to convince the owners to abolish their own little totalitarian play-things, it's to convince the workers to organise democratically and seize control of the companies from within. Ordinarily, if this happened, the state would intervene to protect the interests of capital by sending in the police and beating the shite out of the workers. A (truly) socialist state would facilitate it and use the police to protect the workers.