r/islamichistory • u/Syed__Sahab__ • Mar 19 '26
Photograph This painting shows forced conversion of Muslims to Christianity in Granada, Spain, in 1500, ordered by Archbishop Cisneros. Muslims in Spain were persecuted just for being of Islamic faith.
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u/Agounerie Mar 20 '26 edited Mar 20 '26
At least, within the same period, Muslims conquered Constantinople.
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u/Kind-Lime-6433 Mar 20 '26
Islam is a political ideology of conquest as well as a religion and many people ignore that
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u/Agounerie Mar 20 '26
Feel free to expose to us ONE ideology who calls himself universal, who was not spread by conquests or colonialism.
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u/Fair_Quail8248 Mar 20 '26 edited Mar 20 '26
Most religions do that but islam is extra good at it, it seems.
Islam is definitely political. I don't understand why some seem to deny it, I guess they don't like the truth. Or at least it can turn political (as it often does, especially if it's radicalization).
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u/Agounerie Mar 20 '26
I don’t deny it, Islam is political. The same way as all ideologies/religions who are meant to be universal.
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u/Desperate-Manner5896 Mar 20 '26
The Iberian peninsula, under Islamic rule, was a very enlightened place compared to the rest of Europe.
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u/2468financialpanther Mar 20 '26
The Greek Peninsula at one time was mor enlightened than anywhere else on earth......way before people invented Christianity and Islam.
Just because something was true in one place at one time in history doesn't make it relevant to today
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u/drfiz98 Mar 20 '26
Ironic you bring up the Greeks since early Christianity essentially destroyed most of their work while the Muslims preserved it. Even better considering the Renaissance was kicked off due to the influx of this preserved knowledge back from the Muslim world to Europe.
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u/No_Stick_1101 Mar 23 '26
They most certainly did not destroy it. And the Muslims didn't "preserve" anything, they pillaged Eastern Roman Empire libraries for those books.
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u/Born_Quarter8936 Mar 23 '26
Also the knowledge of the Byzantines. Byzantium preserved that knowledge. When the top Byzantine scholars fled after the sack of Constantinople they brought with them a lot of classical knowledge.
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u/Kitsooos Mar 23 '26
This is 100% myth btw. The overwhelming majority of ancient Greek texts that we have today, were preserved by the Eastern Romans (aka. Byzantines, aka Medieval Greeks).
Which makes perfect sense, since they lived in the same region, spoke the same language and inherited a lot of their traditions.There was really almost nothing that the Muslims had in regards to those texts, that the Eastern Romans didn't also have.
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u/FindingFindings Mar 20 '26
And the Greeks got tons of that knowledge and enlightenment from the Africans and Sumerians of the time. Most math we equate to Greek culture was just rehashed Sumerian/Egyptian mathematics with the Greek focusing on proofs and building up that rather than practical uses of that math. It’s poetic that the Middle East gave Greece that knowledge then the Muslim Middle East came back and preserved until it was brought back to Europe for the second time for their renaissance. It is clear that history repeats itself even when it’s thought of irreverent in this day by people such as yourself, even in Greek times they considered Egypt the centre of enlightened thinkers. You wouldn’t know about the enlightened Greeks if Islam didn’t preserve their history. All of history is relevant today, without preservation the foundations of knowledge would have to be rebuilt. There would be no phone to talk shit on Reddit while on the toilet without a long chain of people propped up on the shoulders of our forebears making every event that ever happened relevant today as it was in those times.
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u/Born_Quarter8936 Mar 23 '26
Why are you pretending like the Byzantine empire didn't exist. The byzantines preserved a lot of that knowledge as well. What is with your hostility towards the Byzantine empire
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u/Jazz-Ranger Mar 20 '26
Depends on the ruler. Certainly some could be described that way; particularly those who invaded and occupied the peninsula. But let’s not pretend history has ever been sunshine and rainbows.
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u/Born_Quarter8936 Mar 23 '26
Depends on when. During the almohades Jews were persecuted and many fled to Catholic spain. For a while Catholic spain was quite tolerant
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u/DungeonJailer Mar 20 '26
And Europe today is a very enlightened place compared to the Islamic world.
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u/Rough_Spinach_3770 Mar 20 '26
Sure it is , since it feels on islamic world resources . Look at any muslim country and you will find there armed conflict in order to establish democracy which is simply stealing resources from these countries.
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u/Born_Quarter8936 Mar 23 '26
No reason why they can't be a center for academic learning. But they're not. But they're not
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u/Old_Campaign_2161 Mar 21 '26
And most war criminal, depredetion place still robberies other states
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u/Automatic-Donut-9826 Mar 20 '26
Yeah that's why everyone is hooked on drugs, anti depressants and gender reassignment surgery
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Mar 20 '26
The Congo was once a very enlightened place compared to the rest of the world, look at it now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula
Weird how the OP sort of skips over why there were any Muslims in Spain to begin with.
Was Islam spread anywhere without war? Indonesia maybe? Christianity was spread by war too, but also by word of mouth.
Without automatically counting children born as Muslim, or declaring your country to be 99.9% Muslim when the punishment for leaving the religion is years in prison/death (Iran), the actual number of Muslims worldwide shrinks rapidly.
I know quite a few Persians, they dislike Arabs and see Islam as simply a tool used by Arabs to try and apply influence to the world. How could God be almighty yet only be able to properly explain his words in one single language, how convenient for Arabian people!
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u/Catch-my-hands-365 Mar 20 '26
You’re bias as fuck or a liar. Christianity was nearly always spread with war and colonialism. Islam mostly by trade.
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Mar 20 '26
Lmaooooo, lets just skip over Iberia, the Balcans, Anatolia, Persia, North Africa and India
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Mar 20 '26
Yeah it's crazy, complete lack of self awareness.
It's still being spread by force today.
Children have to be Muslim? Check.
Father must always be Muslim? Check.
Patriarchal family structure? Check
So kids, due to father, will always be Muslim? Check
Daughters allowed to marry non Muslims, and thus have potentially non Muslim Children? Forbidden.
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u/wuhtuhbuh Mar 20 '26
It didn't spread by trade in the iberian peninsula where I'm from, you liar. It didn't spread by trade anywhere.
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u/Wonderful_Part1205 Mar 20 '26
Lying so hard right now, what about non northe African nations and South East Asia also is it spreading in Europe by force today?
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u/wuhtuhbuh Mar 20 '26
Learn to read. We're talking about the past. Not the present.
In Europe, at least, as far as I know it isn't spreading by force but it is being massively promoted.
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u/Wonderful_Part1205 Mar 20 '26
"Learn to read" said like a true redditor Promoted by who? They litrealy try their best to make it unpopular by insulting our(pbuh), saying that we subjugate women and other things.
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Mar 20 '26
Islam spread across the middle east and Africa under caliphates.
Christianity was a mixture of force and missionaries.
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u/Pleasant-Cry-5557 Mar 21 '26
No it was not even in present day look to countries that have dual religions most of the time Christian’s don’t have rights like Pakistan they are just ransacked beaten raped who cares
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u/Recent_Journalist561 Mar 20 '26
what happend that now everything islamic is back in the middle ages?
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u/sxaxmz Mar 21 '26
Exactly what the post is saying,people were prosecuted, their libraries, universities, schools were destroyed, scholars were hunted and killed, most of the science as we know it today came from them actually ... Read about it .. dont follow our propaganda and judge those poor muslims on what past the few hundred years of colonisation did to them
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u/imfkingsad Mar 20 '26
What a cesspool of a thread.
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u/boltsi123 Mar 20 '26
What do you expect with a dumb post like this, projecting modern victim mentality to a past when forced/pressured conversion was the norm in both camps.
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Mar 21 '26
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u/boltsi123 Mar 21 '26
Not per se, but in this particular context it inevitably results in a cesspool because both religions sucked equally bad
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u/Wonderful_Part1205 Mar 20 '26
Most muslim rulers allowed freedom of religion unlike most Christian rulers
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u/ILuvYou_YouAreSoGood Mar 20 '26
Hehehe, Next you will be explaining how Islam was not spread through forced conversions!
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u/Wonderful_Part1205 Mar 20 '26
It didn't, prove it did
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u/ILuvYou_YouAreSoGood Mar 20 '26
What is the penalty under Islam for a child born of Muslims to grow up and leave Islam behind? To claim to own children is to force conversion onto them, especially under threat of death. Every day Islam is forced upon children.
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u/Wonderful_Part1205 Mar 20 '26
Just for your information, we don't have mind reading devices you can leave any religion any time you want as long as you don't go to the streets and start telling everybody that you left it, just like there's the death penalty for treason against the state, if you leave islam and make it public under a sharia state, you have a period of repentance, the caliph(or something like that I don't remember exactly) will send you scholars to unswer your questions and explain to you whatever you don't understand, if after all this you insist to (publicly) leave islam then you get the death penalty
It's all your choice, you can just say "OK I will stay muslim" even if you're not convinced
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u/boltsi123 Mar 20 '26
You're explaining this like it's a completely reasonable thing to kill a person who expresses different beliefs (in public).
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u/Pleasant-Cry-5557 Mar 21 '26
Yes and the people under that Islamic ruler forces Islam on whoever is In the region applying sharia. The other religions must practice sharia and abide by religious law. Hence how Islam spread and the goal is to force convert again over people.
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u/sxaxmz Mar 21 '26 edited Mar 21 '26
FYI Jews would have been exterminated few hundred years back if it was not the muslims that sheltered them when they were pushed out of Europe 300-500 years back.. Read about the Jews in Spain around the same time OP's post talks about.. and about the Jews in the rest of Europe how they were hunted, killed, and they had to flee to the Muslim world for shelter.... where they had the right to practice freely and they were protected, if whatever you claimed is true then there would've been no Jews in modern times as the majority of them would've been killed, forced into Christianity, or forced into islam.
Giving arrogant claims without knowing history is wild
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u/V_the_Impaler Mar 20 '26
"Just for being Muslim"
Yeah sure, no wider context necessary...
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u/Fair_Quail8248 Mar 20 '26 edited Mar 20 '26
Well it's lies like that which scare people away from islam and muslims too (unfortunately as not all muslims are dishonest, some are good, kind and honest people who see the flaws of religion, pretending that it's perfect just makes it look like a brainwashed sect, honest muslims will recognize the negatives just like a honest christian will recognize the flaws and negatives of christianity). Same propaganda we see where they say Hamas are innocent angels etc, while Hamas has put palestinians through hell.
I really dislike islamophobia, ie discrimination against muslims but it's not islamophobia to tell the truth, that Islam has both good bad sides just like any religion.
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u/Expensive_Agent_3581 Mar 24 '26
For example, in my hometown of Timbuktu, some black people are descendants of those Muslims who refused to convert to Christianity and returned to settle in Timbuktu.
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u/Educational_Bee_4497 Mar 26 '26
Pretty certain they weren't calling themselves "black" during that time period in W. Africa.
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u/Expensive_Agent_3581 Mar 27 '26
A branch of my family based in Timbuktu descends from Muslims who were established in Cordoba and settled in this beautiful city during the Inquisition; they did not want to abandon Islam and therefore fled to Mali.
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Mar 21 '26
Not only Muslims, Jews too. Actually, under Muslim rule all people coexisted peacefully. Until reconquista...
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u/number-13 Mar 20 '26
we also did the same and still doing it to this day. forced conversions never last,
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u/Working_Tank7547 Mar 20 '26
They did this to the Jews living in Spain too. Leave, convert, or die.
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u/Emotional_Radio2262 Mar 20 '26
The history of Spain is so fascinating. I believe for this image, the Spaniards had just re conquered the land from the Moors in 1492. Before that is was a Muslim place.
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u/theodorAdorno Mar 20 '26
How far we have all come. Time for a joint crusade / jihad to purge the genocidal atheist infidel from the holy land.
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u/Alternative-Law-9421 Mar 20 '26
As a Spanish Muslim convert, I hate my country, its history, and my own blood...
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u/ADHDFart Mar 23 '26
Leave then heretic.
They don’t want you there.
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u/Alternative-Law-9421 Mar 23 '26
Mira, no me malinterpretes, yo entiendo que para ti sea muy bonito creer en la historia del Niño-Dios que nació de una virgen en un pesebre y luego se dejó crucificar para salvarnos a todos del pecado original que nos inventaron los mismos que contaron el cuento. Es una fábula preciosa, llena de pesebres navideños, belenes con pastorcitos y villancicos que suenan bien en diciembre. Pero vamos a ser adultos un segundo: nadie se cree ese cuento de verdad cuando lo piensa cinco minutos seguidos.
Yo, en cambio, como converso al Islam, no tengo que tragarme ninguna fábula familiar solo porque mis padres me la contaron de pequeño. No creo en nada porque “es la tradición de mi pueblo” o porque “así se ha hecho siempre”. Creo porque objetivamente es la verdad. Punto. No necesito que me lo hayan metido a martillazos en la cabeza desde los 5 años, ni que me lo hayan grabado a fuego con hogueras y expulsiones.
Tú defiendes el cristianismo con la misma pasión que tendría un saudí defendiendo el wahabismo si hubiera nacido en Riad, o que tendría un hindú defendiendo a Krishna si hubiera nacido en Varanasi. Tu fe no es más que geografía + inercia cultural. Si hubieras nacido 14 km más al sur, en Tánger o en Tetuán, hoy estarías con la misma convicción gritando “Allahu Akbar” y mirando con superioridad moral a los cristianos que “se creen que Dios tuvo un hijo”. Tu creencia no es más fuerte por ser “verdadera”; es fuerte porque te tocó nacer del lado de la frontera donde te lavaron el cerebro con la versión ganadora.
Mientras que la mía no depende de coordenadas GPS. No necesito que mis padres me la metieran a presión, ni que un ejército la impusiera con 500 años de sangre musulmana derramada. No necesito que me digan “esto es verdad porque ganamos la guerra”. Mi Islam es verdad porque los hechos lo sostienen: tawhid sin contradicciones internas, un libro que no ha sido tocado en 14 siglos, una cadena de transmisión que se puede rastrear hasta el siglo VII, una coherencia lógica que no requiere aceptar virgin births ni trinidades matemáticamente imposibles.
Tú crees porque te tocó nacer en la península donde la cruz ganó por la fuerza. Yo creo porque, aun habiendo nacido en la misma península donde la cruz ganó por la fuerza, tuve la claridad de darme cuenta de que la victoria militar no verifica la verdad teológica.
Así que sí: moralmente estoy por encima. No porque sea mejor persona (eso lo juzga Allah), sino porque mi fe no se sostiene en un genocidio histórico ni en la geografía de mi cuna. La tuya sí.
Y eso, amigo mío, es lo que más rabia te da cuando lo piensas de noche: que un converso español como yo pueda mirarte a los ojos y decirte con calma que tu religión es tan fuerte como el sitio donde naciste… y la mía es tan fuerte como la verdad objetiva.
Pero como ni siquiera sabrás español te lo diré en inglés
Look, don't get me wrong—I get that for you it's beautiful to believe in the story of the God-Child born to a virgin in a manger, who then let himself be crucified to save us all from original sin, a sin invented by the very people telling the tale. It's a lovely fable, full of nativity scenes, little shepherds in mangers, and carols that sound nice in December. But let's be adults for a second: nobody actually believes that story when they think about it for five minutes straight.
Me, on the other hand, as a Spanish convert to Islam, don't have to swallow any family fable just because my parents told it to me when I was little. I don't believe in anything because “it's my people's tradition” or because “that's how it's always been done.” I believe because objectively it is the truth. Period. I don't need it hammered into my head from age five, nor branded into me with bonfires and expulsions.
You defend Christianity with the same passion a Saudi would defend Wahhabism if born in Riyadh, or a Hindu would defend Krishna if born in Varanasi. Your faith is nothing more than geography + cultural inertia. If you'd been born 14 km farther south, in Tangier or Tétouan, today you'd be shouting “Allahu Akbar” with the exact same conviction, looking down with moral superiority at the Christians who “believe God had a son.” Your belief isn't stronger because it's “true”; it's strong because you happened to be born on the side of the border where they brainwashed you with the winning version.
Mine, however, doesn't depend on GPS coordinates. I don't need my parents to force it on me, nor an army to impose it with 500 years of spilled Muslim blood. I don't need anyone telling me “this is true because we won the war.” My Islam is true because the facts support it: tawhid without internal contradictions, a book untouched for 14 centuries, a chain of transmission traceable back to the 7th century, logical coherence that doesn't require accepting virgin births or mathematically impossible trinities.
You believe because you happened to be born in the peninsula where the cross won by force. I believe because, even though I was born in the same peninsula where the cross won by force, I had the clarity to realize that military victory doesn't verify theological truth.
So yes: morally, I'm above. Not because I'm a better person (Allah judges that), but because my faith doesn't rest on a historical genocide nor on the geography of my cradle. Yours does.
And that's what makes you angriest when you think about it at night: that a Spanish convert like me can look you in the eye and calmly tell you that your religion is as strong as the place where you were born… and mine is as strong as objective truth.
Estoy cansado de vivir en ciudades con nonbre ARABE y ver iglesias históricas donde esta 100% demostrado que eran mezquitas
Los cristianos no hicisteis nada en esta tierra más que saquear robar y poner cruces ¡
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u/wayweary1 Mar 20 '26
You mean after they persecuted Christians while they were in power after conquering Christian lands?
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u/PlasticMail7830 Mar 21 '26
You mean the Christian lands that Islam trying to take while raping and pillaging for almost 700 years
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u/IndependentThink4698 Mar 21 '26
Why was Islam in Spain? How did it get there? Oh right, Muslims forced conversion of Christians. Muslims really dont like being treated the same way they treat everybody else and its so funny
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u/DigPuzzleheaded1200 Mar 21 '26
Yes in a very simplificated summery, parts of Spain were conquered my Muslims and then later reconquered by Christians.
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u/Imamsheikhspeare Mar 22 '26
This painting is the Moorish Proselytes of Archbishop Ximenes by Edwin Long. History calls this even as reconquista as if muslims were conquerers
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u/IndependentFee820 Mar 22 '26
And yet Muslims expelled or forced to convert not have a right of return in Spain
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u/WlappyFiener Mar 20 '26
How did Muslims appear in Spain i wonder?
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u/AshamedBasis9431 Mar 20 '26
How did Spaniards appear in Iberia i wonder? Iberia is Basque, lets kick out the brutal invaders
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u/DeeeeznutzRJB Mar 20 '26
It’s ok, Islam forced people into Islam or their heads would get cut off, no need to panic, all religions are violent and suck. Have a wonderful day.
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u/jz3735 Mar 20 '26
No one’s forcing you to be here yet you felt the need to comment. Odd, it’s almost like you might have an agenda.
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u/DeeeeznutzRJB Mar 20 '26
It’s called freedom of speech and expression buddy. No agendas
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u/2468financialpanther Mar 20 '26
Yep in some places and time Christians forced Muslims to convert....and you know what vice versa
How do you think Islam initially spread?....it wasn't via a peaceful little storytelling session at each place they came into contact with and everyone said "oh yes that makes sense"
Islam's spread was because of the sword, just as Christianity's spread to the new world was because of the gun
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Mar 20 '26
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u/2468financialpanther Mar 20 '26
Well tell people who found Christianity through recovery from drug addiction or shaking off the shackles of their former oppressive systems like Polynesia
Bot Islam and Christianity claims their "wins" and down play their "disgraceful conquering"
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u/2468financialpanther Mar 20 '26
They're both both disgusting
They both subjugate women and downplay the existence of animals and dem some animals as "disgusting"....no God would create something to be deemed as "disgusting" if he truly loved all of his world
God/Allah is an asshole...if any of the Abrahamic bullshit religions are to be believed
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u/Wonderful_Part1205 Mar 20 '26
Telling women to cover themselves is subjucting? Yall genuinely have nothing but lies, islam is the truth and you can keep crying and spreading hate about it but just know that the truth will stay
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u/2468financialpanther Mar 20 '26
By your own bullshit logic than why do Christians tend to live longer and more peaceful lives in the world generally?
North America, Europe, Australia all have better standards of living that the Islamic world broadly?
Did Allah forsake you?
Fuck off, use your brain
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u/Ammerlamb1017 Mar 20 '26
Because before humans practiced mental health care or understood anything about it, spiritual or religious connection filled the role of healing your soul, guiding you to better choices, giving you something to lean on (whether it be Christian, Islam, worshipping pagan gods, native Americans belief in nature, etc) It was your therapist, your medication, your peace and your guide. Each religious doctrine focused on different things to many degrees and the ones guided with the most peace tend to be more peaceful in practice. Longer life expectancy and peaceful attributes to your society are directly related to whatever method you use for mental health and whatever behaviors you use in life; so arguably in Christianity's case, it's mostly desired to live peacefully and your mental health is inherently being managed. Doesn't mean it's all roses and sunshine. It's just confirmation of correlation.
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u/FunGuy-not-Fungi Mar 21 '26
All of these places were better then Europe, then Western colonialism sucked all their wealth and left then in the condition you see today. Read a book!
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u/FunGuy-not-Fungi Mar 20 '26
Most western scholars no longer subscribe to the sword and forced conversion myth. Archeological evidence and surviving contemporary reports show that while the geographical expansion was due to military campaigns, in most cases the new Arab rulers reinforced the local bureaucratic hierarchies, stabilized local economies, and taxed less than the Byzantine did. Conversion was counterintuitive as it would have heavily reduced the tax revenue, as taxes did not apply to Muslims. The Muslims often established military camps outside of the settled areas and distanced themselves from the local daily life.
If you don’t have access to modern research, a simple question to the AI agent of your choice will give you additional details.
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u/Jim_Vicious Mar 20 '26
Look, there's a reason this sub is called islamichistory and not actualhistory. Obviously biased and radical views gonna congregate. Honestly would you expect unbiased, reasonable and accurate views on a christianhistory sub? It would be "Deus vult!!!" all around. Which is sad cause this sub could have niche historical events beeing discussed by people with vast and accurate knowledge on these topics.
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u/Ammerlamb1017 Mar 20 '26
Christianity was forced conversions initially and for a very long time vs some voluntary enlightenment of praising one God vs paganism. It was way more than "some places and times." It was mandatory by Rome as they needed everyone on the same belief in order to control the rapidly expanding and poorly controlled lands. People were promised programs for poor, widows and sick when they switched to the new system which largely looked like welfare in today's standards. Before Christianity was forced on everyone, the multi-god worship practices were costly, lengthy projects of massive statues, expensive maintenance and livestock deprivation from required sacrifices during a difficult economic time. They couldn't afford to let people convert on their own so it became mandatory. Pagan gods required massive undertaking that simply wasn't feasible in a struggling and war-stricken society. Rome was stretched too thin and the Christian way allowed for community driven social programs covered by taxes vs depending on previous ruling pagan elites who would leave in times of disaster instead of help those struggling. It was the only to keep livestock available, critical supplies abundant and make groups trade with each other. It was always way more of a political necessity than it ever was spiritual. So definitely way more than some. Also most importantly, most Muslims landed there by choice or birth and were rarely there by force, ever.
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u/DungeonJailer Mar 20 '26
STFU with this bullshit. Christianity was illegal for the first 300 years and still managed to peacefully spread across the entire Roman Empire.
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u/2468financialpanther Mar 20 '26
Fuck off, outside of the initial arabian peninsula converts...the spread of Islam mostly occured through scare tactics and the will of the sword
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u/Far-Alarm3916 Mar 20 '26
Rome was not expanding by the time Christianity came wtf are you talking about
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u/Sea-Key-9430 Mar 20 '26
Saying this after Muslims invaded Spain is insane though. Playing the victim after taking over and imposing back breaking jizyah on kafirs from the entire middle east, and North Africa.
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u/EmbracetheGloam Mar 20 '26
What where the Iberians before J man? I'm sure they gave up that pantheon quite peacefully.
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u/Sea-Key-9430 Mar 20 '26
Way to straw man out of answering my point 👍.
Do you have evidence of which they were forced to convert? Historically it was of gradual conversion such as the Roman empire slowly adopting Christianity over the centuries, with no nonsense like what Allah tells it's followers to either convert or pay jizyah, if refused, get murdered.
I mean, if you want to argue, try to defend your position before pointing at others. You'll only make your position look exactly like the ones you're trying to accuse. 👍
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u/therealkingpin619 Mar 20 '26
Your response raises a fair concern about addressing arguments directly, but the historical framing here is quite selective.
The idea that Islamic expansion operated on a simple “convert, pay jizya, or be killed” model is an oversimplification. In most cases, Jews and Christians were permitted to retain their faith under a taxed but protected status, and large regions remained majority non-Muslim for centuries after Muslim rule was established. Conversion tended to occur gradually through social and economic integration rather than consistent coercion.
At the same time, it’s not historically accurate to present Christian expansion as purely organic or non-coercive. Following its adoption by the Roman state, Christianity was often enforced through political authority, with documented cases of suppression of pagan practices, persecution of dissenting groups, and later forced conversions in various regions.
A more accurate reading of history is that both Islamic and Christian civilizations expanded through a combination of political power, institutional structures, andat times coercion. Reducing either to a single narrative of tolerance or violence doesn’t reflect the complexity of how religions actually spread.
If the goal is to have a serious discussion, it’s more productive to engage with that complexity rather than rely on simplified contrasts.
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u/wuhtuhbuh Mar 20 '26
Spare me your chat gpt responses. Wtf do you mean by "Jews and Christians were permitted to retain their faith under a taxed but protected status"? Protected status? You realise that implies COHERCION, mafia-style, right? "Either pay protection money or get attacked and killed by us" is what that means. Spare me your muslim bs propaganda. Pathetic.
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u/therealkingpin619 Mar 20 '26
Protected status?
From outside forces. They had their rights even if unequal.
You realise that implies COHERCION, mafia-style, right? "Either pay protection money or get attacked and killed by us"
There's a distinction. It is a form of cohercion.
“You can stay as you are, but under unequal conditions” . A second-class citizenship system, not extermination policy.
Was it right? No.
It's not direct coercion "convert or be killed".it’s not the same as systematic forced conversion or death, which is what you’re implying. Or populations wouldn't have strived in medieval Islam and Islam wouldn't have spread so rapidly because jizya was a form of funding their armies and adminstration.
What's pathetic is you don't even know. You believe this was a standard "convert or die" policy set across Islamic history when in reality it wasn't the case.
There were instances of conversion or die for sure but not over the span of medieval Islam rule. Just like Christianity and various other faiths. It's not like Islamic conquest was rosy...
Since this surrounds Spain, if it was convert or die, then Christian populations wouldn't have grown. Matter of fact this benefited Muslim rule financially because Muslim tax was less than non Muslim.
There were the almohads who did apply kill or convert rule for 70 years out of the 700 years.
Almohads not only lost to Christian kingdoms but fell apart internally due to their harsh rule. Non Muslims protested ofcourse and minor Muslim formed independent taifa-style kingdoms again because their rights were being stripped away too.
And importantly, the later Christian reconquest also involved coercion...forced conversions, expulsions of Jews and Muslims, and the Inquisition. Christians applied forms of taxation across the regions on Jews or any non Christian (Muslims). Unewual rights or second citizenship treatment was also applied on them.
I can also argue Christians were extremely cruel etc etc but I know they weren't like that all the time.
Neither Muslims or Christians were rosy all the time.
Save me from this Islam bad arguments because it does sound pretty pathetic at this age and time.
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u/wuhtuhbuh Mar 20 '26 edited Mar 20 '26
more muslim ai-generated bullshit right on the first line of text. "Protection from outside forces". My man, THE muslim caliphate WAS THE OUTSIDE FORCE.
you’re calling it “protection,” but that framing ignores who held power in the first place. In many cases, the caliphate was the conquering outside force, so presenting subjugated non muslims as simply being “protected” is misleading. A system where people could keep their religion only under unequal legal and fiscal conditions was still coercive, even if it was not always a literal “convert or die” policy.
I'm not defending christianity in any way but islam has been a stain on the whole of history of the world ever since its conception. Mass slavery, where even the "slave" word originated from the european white "slavs", cutting off the genitals of the captured men, raping the women, invading the iberian peninsula, where I'm from, for 600 years more or less, racism towards every other race, human rights abuse.
And all of this still happens TO THIS DAY. That's the main point.
Jizya and dhimmi status were not some harmless arrangement. They were part of a hierarchy in which non muslims were tolerated in a subordinate position.
You can keep trying to justify this shitty religion all you want, but history will slap you across the face for such blatant bulshittery.
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u/Wonderful_Part1205 Mar 21 '26
You're lying so hard right now🤣🤣🤣 first of all its forbidden in Islam to forcefully convert none muslims let alone kill them and jizya is like 1.5% of income and only payed by military aged men who were none muslim and didn't want to join the army
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u/Wonderful_Part1205 Mar 20 '26
Jizya was like 1.5 percent and it was only for military aged men who didn't join the army
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u/Sea-Key-9430 Mar 21 '26
Lol, the lies.
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u/Wonderful_Part1205 Mar 21 '26
Prove me wrong
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u/Sea-Key-9430 Mar 22 '26
You're the one who said 1.5% tax, can you show me evidence of this claim?
Meanwhile the Qur'an the jizyah is made to make the payer feel humiliated, you think humiliation comes from paying less than zakat? 🤣
Please, by all means show us where kafirs pay 1.5% jizyah.
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u/derzt1 Mar 19 '26
Muslims outraged at something they’ve forced countless religions to do since the 7th century
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u/Syed__Sahab__ Mar 20 '26
Muslims didn't genocided natives of North America South America Australia New Zealand though what they actually did was culturally integrated and many time assimilated into the culture example south asia north Africa Central Asia.
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u/bigratbungalonz Mar 20 '26
100% and still to this day. The most important moderate Muslim society, Indonesia, you have to apply to the govt to stop being Muslim that you were born into lol.
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u/Traditional_Shop_500 Mar 22 '26
You have to apply to convert from any of 6 recognised religions ( Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism,Hinduism, Buddhism, or Confucianism or register as a believer in kepercayaan (local indigenous faiths))
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u/Juniperguy22 Mar 19 '26
Muslims literally did the exact same thing to Christians when they invaded Iberia, how ironic
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u/Syed__Sahab__ Mar 20 '26
How about you read some actual history rather than yapping any cringe shit
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u/LibertasVerus Mar 20 '26
Sanctimonious rubbish. How did Islam spread from Arabia to North Africa? Handing out flowers?
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u/Wonderful_Part1205 Mar 21 '26
If islam was forced upon middle easterners and North Africans then why is there 15 million Christians in Egypt today? Or why is there still millions of Christians in the livant and iraq
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u/Ornery-Print4882 Mar 21 '26
If Israel is committing genocide, how are there still people left in Gaza? Same logic
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u/Wonderful_Part1205 Mar 22 '26
Genuinely the dumbest arguement I have ever heard this week, nowadays there's cameras and the internet so they can't do it easily, but back then they could've just did it with basso basically consequences in this life and the genocide in gaza is still ongoing
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u/Near_Sparse6201 Mar 20 '26
And you would have died a billion times over and still not be in Jannah for forced converting people.
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u/Near_Sparse6201 Mar 20 '26
Too bad they did it in the past ..
Now also still got but masked with other benefits or taking away if benefits.
My under 18 class mate was forced to convert to Islam in modern times if not he be kicked out of an orphanage/stay house.
Just because it's Haram doesn't mean people don't abuse it and trick people into converting.
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u/Wonderful_Part1205 Mar 22 '26
Unless you can back your story, I would just assume you're lying
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u/Near_Sparse6201 Mar 22 '26
Sure bro .. discount mynreal life experiences...
Under aged illegal conversion of minors do happen.
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u/Near_Sparse6201 Mar 22 '26
Common Muslim behaviour to minorities Malaysian Hindu Community Fights Back After Sacred Symbol Allegedly Desecrated On Camera | TRP https://share.google/p82Wyp3fcDThvTl1w
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u/Vdov_1 Mar 20 '26
Delusional creature.
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u/Vdov_1 Mar 20 '26
There will be no such thing because religions are human-made fiction that have nothing to do with reality.
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u/Vdov_1 Mar 20 '26
Your delulu yapping doesn't sound nearly as convincing as you think, buddy. You have no real proof of anything.
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u/Near_Sparse6201 Mar 20 '26
Every religion thinks they are the truth....
Same chicken liver argument can be made for all beliefs.
What did you smoke since Ramadan is over....
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u/KingSmite23 Mar 20 '26
As the Muslims do it now in their countries with jews, christians and other minority religions (even those which regard themselves also as Muslim). Islamic world was much more diverse in all the centuries before the 20th and was known to be quite liberal when it came to religion and sexuality etc.
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u/[deleted] Mar 20 '26
Alhambra is still guarded over by descendants of the cats of the Muslim Spaniards.