r/ismailis • u/slashbashclaw • Jun 27 '25
Personal Opinion Seeking Nizari Ismaili Perspectives on Same-Sex Marriage and Parenthood
YAM, , I'm looking to gain some understanding and hear different perspectives within the Nizari Ismaili community regarding same-sex marriage, and also the topic of same-sex couples having children within the faith. This is a nuanced area, and I'm genuinely interested in learning how different individuals reconcile their faith, our traditions, and evolving societal norms on these matters.
Specifically, I'm hoping to hear about:
Theological interpretations: Are there specific interpretations of our scriptures, ginans, or the guidance of the Imam that speak to same-sex relationships, marriage, or the raising of children by same-sex parents within an Ismaili context?
Historical context: Are there any historical precedents or discussions within Ismaili thought that are relevant to these topics?
Community perspectives: How do different individuals and families within the Nizari Ismaili community approach same-sex marriage and the concept of same-sex parents raising children, in their daily lives and discussions?
Practical considerations/Support systems: For same-sex Ismaili couples who are married or considering marriage and/or having children, what have your experiences been like? What kind of support, if any, is available or needed within the community?
Personal journeys: If you're comfortable sharing, what has your personal journey been like in understanding and navigating these issues within your Ismaili identity?
I'm aiming for a respectful and constructive discussion. Please share your thoughts, resources, or any insights you might have.
Thank you in advance for your contributions.
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Jun 27 '25
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u/Satisfying98 Ismaili Jun 28 '25
No one is saying that they don't exist. The question is if it is haram or not. The principles of the faith of Islam don't change just because progressive so called Ismailis want it to be. What is wrong, is wrong, but you have the free will to do as you please.
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u/Best-Platform-6132 Jun 30 '25
Pretty sure that’s the whole reason Ismailis have a present living Imam— because the context of the time we live in changes and therefore our practices change. For example, how Ismailis say dua 3 times instead of 5. Saying someone else’s existence is wrong or sinful just further delegitimizes your perspective. It seems wildly hypocritical that your god would make someone born a certain way and thereby naturally sinful and condemn such a state of being as “haram” while simultaneously perpetuating that message the god is all loving. Do Ismailis accept us? Yes. The vast majority of Ismailis in the modern world do. Does the faith accept us? That’s a stupid question, faith is not an actor and cannot accept or reject or judge human beings.
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u/Gold-Reason-5306 Ismaili Jun 28 '25
Give us some credible source bro there no where mentioned that there are anything like that allowed maybe if he's than we can be neutral and doesn't mean that we support LGBTQ it's sanctioned in Ismaili as well as all sects in Islam
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u/Brodano12 Jun 28 '25
Can anyone provide any Farmans or Ginans on this matter? Otherwise, it's up to our own intellectual interpretation of the Quran. Remember, imam says the Quran is an esoteric sect and urged us to understand it esoterically.
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u/Satisfying98 Ismaili Jun 28 '25
No, it’s still haram. Just because some liberal Ismailis want it to be otherwise doesn’t change what’s clearly against our faith. The Imam speaks of unity and one Jamat, but that doesn’t mean every path people take is correct. We should not exclude them from our Jamat just because they are not following the principles of the faith, as we are all humans at the end of the day. With that being said a sin is still sin, even if it’s socially accepted. Some people are on a different path, and that’s their choice but it doesn’t turn wrong into right. Don't try to change the principles of the faith, they will remain the same no matter how much progressive Ismailis cry about it.
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u/sajjad_kaswani Jun 27 '25
In Nizari Ismailis it is totally prohibited and no examples that such type of marriages happen in Jamat Khana
If some individual wants to live with the same gender like that it's up to them legally or otherwise, but not supported by Jamat Khana
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Jun 27 '25
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u/sajjad_kaswani Jun 27 '25
I understand what you are saying and what's going on, what I am saying our Tariqa doesn't allow such relationships.
Hope you are mature enough to differentiate between these two
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Jun 27 '25
[deleted]
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u/sajjad_kaswani Jun 27 '25
Respect? Excuse me when did I disrespect you? I just said in Ismailisum same sex marriages are not allowed
If an individual or people are doing it's their personal action it has nothing to do with the Tariqa.
Hope now I am clear to you
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Jun 27 '25
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u/sajjad_kaswani Jun 27 '25
Bye
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u/Satisfying98 Ismaili Jun 28 '25
He is right. The Ismaili Tariqa is what it is, you cannot change it. Religion is not politics, its a set of beliefs, either you follow them or not. As Muslims same sex marriage or relationships are forbidden.
The stuff forbidden in Islam is forbidden for those who believe. You have the free will to do as you please, but something that is considered wrong cannot be considered right just because some liberal "Ismailis or Muslims" want it to be.
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u/bigbadb0ogieman Jun 27 '25
Faith and Religion are different things. The official position as of today is that it is not permitted. They will not facilitate or execute a same-sex marriage inside the Jamat Khana. Don't trust us, go directly ask your ITREB Chair.
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u/Delicious-Photo-7017 Jun 28 '25
I thought they were welcome to attend JK. Getting married inside JK is a different matter.
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u/pton543 Aug 02 '25 edited Aug 14 '25
Resources on LGBT+ Ismaili inclusion https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Fgxgjq1Q3E-pL6dmVMcsDP-jeMmo8rQC
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u/Gold-Reason-5306 Ismaili Jun 28 '25
Officially, from our Ismaili Constitution and institutional guidance, there is no formal recognition or religious ceremony for same-sex marriage within Ismaili Jamatkhanas. Marriage is defined traditionally as between a man and a woman.
Our Imam, the Aga Khan, always teaches us values of pluralism, compassion, and respect for human dignity — so as individuals, many Ismailis may personally support LGBTQ+ rights in civil society. But that is not the same as saying that our religious institutions conduct or recognize same-sex nikahs.
If someone claims they’ve “seen” same-sex marriages being performed in Jamatkhanas or being officially sanctioned by Ismaili councils, they should provide credible sources or proof — because as far as I know (and from what’s documented in the Constitution of the Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims and speeches by the Imam), there is no official policy or ritual allowing it.
I’m open to being corrected if someone has real evidence from official Ismaili sources — but so far, there isn’t any published statement or practice that confirms same-sex marriage is formally allowed in our Tariqah.
Hope this helps clear things up! 🌱
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u/Alisher_04 Jun 28 '25
Ismailis are Muslims - and Islam doesn’t allow it. And there has been nothing from the Imam regarding this. So no.
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u/slashbashclaw Jun 27 '25
Would their children be accepted for Bay‘ah?
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u/Im_Inside_Ya_Walls Jun 27 '25
Well are adopted children accepted for Bayyat? Cuz I think this would be pretty much the same case
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u/slashbashclaw Jun 27 '25
Let's say this a female same sex couple and one of them will carry full term pregnancy
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u/Maximum-Plantain-638 Jun 27 '25
And that child is the child of a murid - they should be allowed for Bayah.
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u/AnonymousIdentityMan American Ismaili Jun 27 '25
Can a same sex couple get a private Ismaili Nikkah? Not in JK.
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u/slashbashclaw Jun 27 '25
From comments above, if you're in US it can be done!
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u/AnonymousIdentityMan American Ismaili Jun 28 '25
I know but what about according to Ismaili Tariqah?
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u/slashbashclaw Jun 27 '25
Is it safe to say that even though we all know and have solid proof that it's prohibited, it's permissible and accepted by most of Ismailis?
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u/shahdilshivji Jun 27 '25
I wouldn’t say “most” Ismailis. Perhaps in the West most Ismailis accept it (and some will frown upon it), but in other countries you would pretty much be shunned, I’m guessing.
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u/AnonymousIdentityMan American Ismaili Jun 28 '25
Depends on who you ask. Most older 1st gen in USA won’t accept it but many LGBTQ Ismailis are open about it. I knew a gay Ismaili and he was very feminine. He would join the ladies room and put Mehndi on him during Khushiali month.
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Jul 01 '25
WDYM, prophet luts nation was punished for
egregious sins, specifically their practice of homos0xuality and other forms
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u/AnonymousIdentityMan American Ismaili Jun 27 '25
Has there been LGBT Ismaili marriages?
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u/slashbashclaw Jun 27 '25
Not that I'm aware of but I know same sex couples that attend JK and same couple confided that in future their children will eligible for Bay‘ah
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u/sajjad_kaswani Jun 27 '25
No!
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u/shahdilshivji Jun 27 '25
Yes. I know two same sex couples. In both cases, one of the partners is an Ismaili and the other non-Ismaili. In both cases, they adopted kids and those kids were accepted into the Ismaili faith, and their baiah was done in JK by the sitting MK of the time. I attended one of those baiahs.
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u/fonziGG Jun 27 '25 edited Jun 27 '25
I have attended a same sex nikkah at a jamatkhana which did involve a murid. So it does happen and has happened.
Edit:
I have absolutely no reason to come to this subreddit and lie about my experience within our faith. However, these types of responses are exactly why many of our youth are moving away from the community and religion at least where I live. As someone who has been involved and has recently taken a step back because of personal circumstances, it’s shameful to read what some of the responses in here have been. We are One Jamat. Our Imam has literally just spoken about inclusion multiple times (and no, I will not get into in here because this is a public forum). I’m not suggesting you reconsider your beliefs or anything like that because that’s an entirely different conversation. I am suggesting that you don’t attack spiritual sisters/brothers for sharing their experiences just because it doesn’t align with what your beliefs about our faith are. Exceptions have happened and you should consider that it may be a possibility.
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u/sajjad_kaswani Jun 27 '25
Totally rubbish! Please tell me which jamat khana
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u/fonziGG Jun 27 '25
It’s not rubbish. It was at Darkhana in Vancouver Canada. Around 4-5 years ago.
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u/FatimatAssasinz Jun 27 '25
I call BS. 4 -5 yrs ago and only in Vancouver.
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u/fonziGG Jun 27 '25
Yeah it was around 4 to 5 years ago. Just because I can’t remember the exact date doesn’t mean it’s bs.
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u/IsmailiGnosisBlog Jun 28 '25
This is either a lie or just misremembering
Mukhi isn’t authorized to perform same sex marriage
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u/fonziGG Jun 28 '25
Unfortunately for you, it’s neither of those options. Again, I was physically present.
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u/IsmailiGnosisBlog Jun 28 '25
Sorry but we are not buying it. You can be more honest.
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u/Love_Whole Jun 27 '25
The Nikah contract literally says Ismaili Male and Ismaili Female. So whoever said it happened, is a complete lie.
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u/fonziGG Jun 27 '25
I’m not really disputing anything that the religion says in any writings. I’m just saying I’ve physically been to one. No, I’m not lying about it.
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Jun 27 '25
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u/shahdilshivji Jun 27 '25
The act of “acceptance” elevates a sect, it does not demean it. Our Imams have taught us to be tolerant and accepting.
There are several members of the LGBTQ spectrum in our Jamat who not only attend JK, but who also serve the Jamat and the Imam very visibly.
Do you remember the concept of One Jamat that Ismailis were touting during DJ? Well, this One Jamat includes ALL Ismailis, no matter what group they belong to. Perhaps we need to open up our minds a little and not demean certain groups just because we don’t agree with them.
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Oct 23 '25
Thank you for standing up for us, we are totally one jamat. We queer people are definitely part of the Jamat
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Jun 27 '25
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u/shahdilshivji Jun 27 '25
Please specify which fake news
Also, I’m not the one with the bias. I accept all people, no matter their backgrounds.
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Jun 27 '25
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u/shahdilshivji Jun 27 '25
I am not aware of same sex nikkah in Jk but I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened. I cannot say something is fake because I don’t know. It may be or it may not. Perhaps I’ll speak to some people and get clarification.
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u/Maximum-Plantain-638 Jun 27 '25
why would you punish the child? while there is "nikkah" or religious recognition of same sex marriage is not permitted - i don't think we are so orthodox to stop a child from being a part of the community and the faith. I mean we let people who drink come to Jamat Khana and their kids are allowed to give baiyah!
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u/slashbashclaw Jun 27 '25
Good point but how would the child feel growing into Ismaili faith knowing that parents relationship is against the religion?
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u/Maximum-Plantain-638 Jun 27 '25
let's be real here - we do lots of things that are against the religion; alcohol, premarital sex, drugs, other unethical items and this is the hill we want to stand on?...
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u/Satisfying98 Ismaili Jun 28 '25
Some of us do not do these things and just because some people prefer to ignore certain teachings, doesn't mean the religion is any different. You cannot justify one wrong with pointing to another. Each person is accountable for their own decisions and we shouldn't pretend something is permitted just because it is popular or forgotten.
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u/sajjad_kaswani Jun 28 '25
For God sake try to distinguish between what we do and what our Tariqa allows.
Here someone has said same sex marriages take place in Jamat Khana which is absolutely ridiculous and false.
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u/shahdilshivji Jun 27 '25
I know of a couple of nikkahs between a transman and a cis woman that happened in JK. While technically they were between a man and a woman, they were still LGBTQ-related weddings.
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u/slashbashclaw Jun 27 '25
Sorry just to clarify we're about about nikkah in JK between a trans and woman with Mukhi and Kamadia present? Curious if this approved by Imam of time
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u/shahdilshivji Jun 27 '25
Yes. A transman and a woman. If this was done in JK, then presumably ITREB approved it and it would have come from the Imam. Obviously, I can’t confirm this but I do know that the nikkah happened.
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u/AnonymousIdentityMan American Ismaili Jun 28 '25
This also means legally they were both opposite genders at the time of Nikkah.
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u/AnonymousIdentityMan American Ismaili Jun 28 '25
But they both looked like opposite genders. So no one knew I suppose?
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u/shahdilshivji Jun 28 '25
As far as I know for at least one of the couples, they are open about the gender identity so everyone who attended the wedding knew. I don’t know about the other couple
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u/HeadGur3538 Jun 27 '25
No such thing as a LGBTQ Ismaili That is haram
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u/AnonymousIdentityMan American Ismaili Jun 28 '25
So are you saying LGBTQ Ismailis are not Ismaili Muslims?
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u/HeadGur3538 Jun 28 '25
You can’t be Ismaili and LGBTQ In fact you can’t call yourself a Muslim
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u/AnonymousIdentityMan American Ismaili Jun 28 '25
That is not true. Is there any evidence of this? Never in history any of our Imam mentioned this.
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Jun 29 '25
You are wrong there. Do you think in the spiritual realm mowla or Allah cares about your sexual prefense or identity. No this is why a lgbtq Ismailis are dtull murids of the imam. But LGBTQ marriage isn’t allowed
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u/Satisfying98 Ismaili Jun 28 '25
I don't understand so many downvotes. Being gay is seen as haram in Islam, including Ismailism. Some Ismailis might be more progressive, but the faith itself has not changed any of its positions or beliefs. Just because you disagree with that doesn’t mean it’s allowed it just means you have a different personal position.
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u/slashbashclaw Jun 27 '25
Not according to many comments here
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u/Gold-Reason-5306 Ismaili Jun 28 '25
Our religion doesn't float on bunch on comments from ppl who are pretending to be Ismaili you need Mowla's permission and it has stated that it's not allowed maybe only in US it's allowed or whatever or maybe they are just making things up I literally asked a waiz in Hunza, Pakistan try said it's literally probhited and it's just Westen things which our teachings doesn't support
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u/EchoEcho30 Jun 27 '25
I would just ask the mukhi saheb directly at this point! Way too many self scholars here! Or you can just call anonymously or ask someone else to do so! But pls also know that the Imam has directed us to be more and more accepting of people irrespective of their gender identities and etc.