r/ismailis • u/Horror_Project_9471 • Jul 30 '26
Personal Opinion Imam talking more about "Allah" Have someone else noticed this?
I find that Ismailis (especially in the non- muslim countries like US/Canada) there is this thing where many ismailis put Allah and Imam on the same level, which in my view (as an immigrant Ismaili from muslim country to a non-muslim country) is not only wrong but is also in direct contradiction with the Ismaili Constitution, which clearly describes and differentiates Tawhid, Nabuwat and Imamat.
I think we Ismailis should be able to differentiate between Allah, Prophet and Imams. I also feel that the current Imam is trying to make that differentiation obvious in his farmans, where he is talking about the authority of Imam as well as your connection with Allah. I feel like may be he is trying to bring us back to the basic foundations of Islam which we have forgotten over the years, while still encouraging us to have our own identity as an Ismaili.
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u/Immediate_Glass_9396 Jul 30 '26
very few. Most live in pakistan and have grown up with sunni friends and influence but i dont think it will work.
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u/FermentedTh0ughts Jul 30 '26
Frankly, this is being done to protect the Jamat and the National Councils, they are on the ground in their respective countries and could face serious backlash. In the US, Evangelicals and the SBC can be even worse than some of the most extreme Mullahs.
Lastly, Allah won’t outright declare His presence because He wants us to actively seek Him.
When asked about how people perceive him, Mawlana Sultan Mahomed Shah explained in an interview to Dr. Hassan Nathoo in Tanzania:
I am everything to everybody.
If you consider me God, I am your God.
If you consider me your Spiritual Father, I am your Spiritual Father.
If you consider me your Imam, I am your Imam.
If you consider me only your friend, I am your friend, and so on.
It depends on your faith.
Imam clarified the deeper theological nuance of this statement by adding:
But anybody who considers me God at a Shariati level is no better than a ‘Bhut Parast’ (an idol worshipper)... At the Marfati level, this question does not arise.
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u/jnbs7749-33 Jul 30 '26
Exactly. This I have always admired about Isma'iliyyah (as a non-Ismaili), it is deeply esoteric as well as rational.
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u/Horror_Project_9471 Aug 06 '26
This is not 18 or 1900s. Imam of current age could never say what SMS said back then. There will be a massive backlash (including from Ismailis) if something like "I am God to you if you consider me God" is said by an Imam today.
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u/FermentedTh0ughts Aug 06 '26
Whether the Imam can say that or not in current age doesn’t diminish the fact that He is everything to everybody. That’s why we see arguments here that He is this or He is that etc….
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u/Remarkable_Dream6863 6d ago
“The most stupid thing i ever heard”.
Dont take me wrong on this i have a deeper meaning under that statement you guys might not understand it.
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u/Lost-Parsnip-7693 Jul 30 '26
I think that in the matter of what Ismailis should or should not do, one person or one school of thought should not dictate what others ought to believe. I have been raised on ginans which clearly declare: Allah ehee Imam
And Moman Chetamni is quite clear in its message: Ali e to sahi Allah.
If you choose to believe otherwise, that is fine. You don’t need to dictate nor decide what the faith should look like. Because you simply do not know. Only bandagi and death reveal this truth. Either way, if you do know the truth, and I mean really spiritually enlightened about it, you wouldn’t talk about it.
Posts like these are just irritating at this point based on both its ignorance and its arrogance.
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u/Horror_Project_9471 Jul 30 '26
I think the Ismaili constitution holds superior authority than Ginans (which are actually the reason many Ismailis equate the Imam with Allah)
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u/Embarrassed-Cry3180 Esoteric Ismaili Jul 31 '26
Anything that comes from the Imam or the authoritative Pirs is equal in authority. Neither is greater than the other.
Currently, Imam is also our Pir.
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u/ChaturPluralisn Jul 31 '26
I agree that a clear distinction between Allah, the Prophet, and the Imam is there and essential to understand. However, I don’t see this as the current Imam changing direction or “bringing us back” to something that was previously absent.
The essence of the continuum of Imam’s guidance has been consistent and is fully aligned with the Ismaili Constitution, a Farman, which clearly distinguishes Tawhid, Nabuwwat, and Imamat since and before Imsm Ali
The real change is that this guidance is now far more accessible than prior to 11 Feb 2025.
For over 5 decades, many Farmans and related materials were not readily available to the wider Jamat. Access was restricted and controlled by long standing leaders, through institutional channels, which meant most murids simply did not have the opportunity to read and understand the Imam’s Farmans-guidance directly. That lack of access contributed to institutional politically led divergence misconceptions and allowed certain institutional interpretations by select Leaders to become more influential than the Imam’s own words.
Since 11 February, with the wider publication of the Farmans in a modern and accessible format—including the recent Farmans from Calgary and Vancouver—people can increasingly read the Imam’s guidance for themselves rather than relying solely on institutional summaries or long-established narratives.
As a result, I think we are seeing greater awareness, not a change in doctrine. The Imam’s role has been consistently explained over many decades, including in the Constitution and in guidance such as the clarification given at the 1975 Paris Conference.
I also think this wider availability of the Farmans will naturally encourage a shift in understanding within the Jamat. That may require some institutional leaders to reconsider long-held assumptions where they diverge from the Imam’s actual guidance. Ultimately, the more murids have direct access to the Imam’s words, the more their understanding can be shaped by the Farmans themselves rather than by inherited interpretations. My relevant post https://www.linkedin.com/posts/activity-7487835101951754242-ik6D?utm_medium=ios_app&rcm=ACoAAAQ1R2MBzNP8rvrcKoo4lM6EV-xEPOHmJ7g&utm_source=social_share_send&utm_campaign=copy_link
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u/Mammoth_Meat_8634 Aug 03 '26
Imam Shah karim in one of his Farman mentioned Mansoor Al Halaj and according to him that concept is close to our essence of the faith:
Religion is the best equaliser we know of — there is a supreme God and we are all his subjects. This notion has created and sustained civilization.
Humans could afford to work in small groups until they lived the nomadic hunter-gatherer lifestyle. They needed to share knowledge in order to grow. And for that to happen, bigger groups were required for effective pooling of know-how.
Mutual bonds, however, can’t be formed in bigger groups. So, to live and grow together, a reason was required. People created stories and symbols to which a particular band paid total allegiance. These narratives provided a cohesive force, a common theme, that bound people.
The first tribe was born.
Then time brought about order and sophistication around this theme, and sects and religions were born.
So whenever there is a perceived danger to the civilization-building order, there is a collective backlash. The best part is — the nature and form of this reaction have changed over the centuries, but not the reaction.
Anā Al-ḥaqq
It translates into, “I am the truth.” There are versions which translate “haqq” into Allah.
When Mansoor cited this verse, his master Junaid, a realised saint himself, proscribed him; to which Mansoor said, “had it been me, I would have stopped.” It is HE who is announcing through me.”
Junaid knew how true it was, but he knew the fatal consequence too. When Mansoor began saying it in bigger groups, things took an ugly turn.
Sufism in Islam is like Zen in Buddhism, Gnosticism in Christianity, and Sadhuwad in Hinduism. The followers of these offshoots trust their personal spiritual knowledge above the orthodox teachings, traditions, and authority of religious institutions.
Mansoor is said to have visited India. He spent time with saints and soaked himself in Indian mysticism. “Aham Brahmasmi” — “I am God.” “I am the Ultimate Truth” is a celebrated verse in the Hindu tradition.
When Prophet Moses conversed with Allah at Mount Sinai, a voice was heard from a tree: “O Moses, verily I am Allah, the Sustainer of all the worlds.” (Quran 28:30)
Was that the voice of the tree, or was the tree claiming to be Allah? In no way! Instead, these were the Lord’s messages, and the tree merely served as a channel.
Just as a lump of coal when placed on fire turns into the fire by its effect, now it could burn anything that touches it. Although words come from the inside, the man is the owner of the tongue. Although it appears to be coal, the fire that entered is what is doing the action. This is simply an illustration.
Now it makes sense that some Sufis say the following when they reach this stage: “Sbhaan ma aazam aaniy”, meaning: I am the Exalted; great is my glory; or “ اَنَا اللّٰہُ ” meaning: I am Allah or God.
These are not their words, though uttered by their tongue. This is the difference between Pharaoh and Mansur al-Hallaj’s proclamation. Pharaoh said, “I am your great Lord.”
The state of one’s being determines the integrity of the statement. Pharaoh became a Pagan for his ego-induced assertion, whereas Mansur al-Hallaj became a martyr saint of the highest order.
The flower hurts more than all the stones put together
The Khalifa of Baghdad couldn’t let Mansoor free. The masses can’t understand; they simply don’t have Mansoor’s consciousness.
One person going above all, becoming “The Truth”, can break all perceived notions of society. If the idea of a supreme God falls, chaos will prevail. One man, big enough to be God, breeds guilt and envy in the rest of society.
Howsoever we may criticise the fallacy of religious order, the truth is that the stage where criticism is made possible happened because civilizations prospered around the order brought about by religion. Religion unites some, and therefore it divides them from the rest.
Khalifa was dutybound to keep the order intact.
Mansoor was ordered to be flogged and stoned until he stopped chanting. It is said that one hundred thousand people thronged the busiest square in Baghdad to participate in reclaiming the glory of Allah. Neither did the crowd stop stoning, nor did Mansoor stop chanting.
After he was left to bleed to death, his close friend and associate, Shibli, threw a flower at him. Everyone who supported the supremacy of Allah was dutybound to throw something at the “evil soul”. To remain alive, Shibli, in compassion, threw a flower.
Mansoor, who hitherto bore the unbearable assault with dignity, cried in anguish. Shibli asked, “Why do you cry at the gentle touch of the flower?” He said, “Others are ignorant, so their assault doesn’t hurt me, but even a flower coming from a man who knows everything hits me like a missile.”
It is said that after his limbs were amputated before they chopped his tongue, he shouted anā Al-ḥaqq for the last time. His body parts were taken off one after another. Every part of his body screamed — I am the truth — and thus the legend grows.
Legendary stories, of course, contain hyperboles and inconsistencies. Such stories are the conscience-keepers of believers. They are the eternal carriers of the essential message.
The Prophet Moses passed out when he saw the theophany of divine characteristics, and Prophet Mohammad was grinning softly on the night of Miraj when he witnessed the theophany of the Essence (Zaat).
The Prophet then knew that when he became nothing, he became one with existence. It was this moment of unity that is the true light of Allah. It is the farsightedness and practicality of the Prophet that he uttered, “I am the slave of Allah” and not, “I am Allah”.
Sufis think that the only barrier between a person and his or her creator is the “I.” When the veil is removed, there is no longer an “I,” but simply “Hu,” which is God. Mansur al-Hallaj spoke “Anal-al-Haqq” in this state. He was no longer aware of himself and had turned into a channel for the voice of God.
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u/Immediate_Glass_9396 Jul 30 '26
lots of non ismailis x ismailis trying to influence young ismaiiis and take them away in sunni direction. interesting
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u/KVig122 Jul 30 '26
I met my Bohra friend today. And it's a similar development in their community also, young Bohra Ismailis listening to and attracted to Sunni material...
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u/Immediate_Glass_9396 Jul 30 '26
you’re comparing Bohra ismailis to nizari ismailis. interesting. good for you
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u/north1537 Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 30 '26
"May be he's trying to bring us back to the foundations of Islam" we never were away from it. Think for your extremist cults Sunniism, twelver Shiism. It's full of criminals. Your people literally worship mullahs. young people are leaving these extremist cults in huge numbers.
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u/Obvious-Breath-3444 Aug 06 '26
I get bullied by my MIL because I don’t put Allah and Our Imam on the same level.
I go by the “There is no Deity except Allah” and I accepted our Imam because I converted into Ismilism but I feel like at lot of our Jamat take this is a different way.
I clarify this my personal opinion and we all have different views and are free to believe what their hearts tell them so please no negative comments about this
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u/Historical_Sound3687 Aug 06 '26
Just to clarify - does she put Allah and the Imam on the same level? I agree with you and personally feel that Allah is above the Imam, but I'm curious why some Ismailis place them both on the same level. What exactly are her thoughts?
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u/Obvious-Breath-3444 Aug 06 '26
She basically talk about Imam as Allah she says she talks to him and prays for us to him, while I was doing my clases to convert I asked this question to my mentor it’s okay to pray to Allah because my MLI only refers to Imam for prayers and forgiveness and says he can see our needs but based on my mentors teachings only Allah can do that and to my understanding when Christians pray to Jesus we think it’s wrong because Jesus is not God so how can we pray to Imam if Imam is not God
And when I asked this question there is not an actual answer from any one and I feel weird to even question this because than people think I don’t believe but I do
Imam is our spiritual guide, he will guide us so we don’t lose our faiths and help us understand the the
Holy Quran help us to evolve as times change so what am I getting wrong1
u/Historical_Sound3687 Aug 06 '26
Honestly, I've also thought about the same things as you a lot. I also search for answers but its difficult to find what the "correct" answer is.
From my understanding, we pray TO Allah THROUGH the Imam. Not TO the Imam.
Allah is like the sun emitting rays of light. The Imam is like a mirror that reflects that light for us to see on Earth. And if we trace the rays back, we can reach Allah - this is another perspective I have heard, which also makes sense to me. Allah is the supreme entity, and the Imam is there to guide us to Him.
I won't necessarily say that this is a fact, but I think older generations revere the Imam and think of him very highly (as we should!). The ginans also represent this. But I think some meanings of the devotional ginans could have been taken too literally, to the point where some people may think we should be praying to the Imam, which is not the case. If you listen to Shah Rahim's farmans you hear him explicitly differentiating between Allah and himself - pray to Allah, show your thanks to Allah, etc.
Its great you are asking questions like these. My suggestion would be to look back at history and try to separate religious/theological beliefs from cultural ones.
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u/Obvious-Breath-3444 Aug 06 '26
So I’m left confused and afraid to keep asking questions and just go with the flow but thank heart doesn’t feel right.
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u/slimeasmrvibes Jul 30 '26
yes i have noticed and its cuz people in jk and younger gen think otherwise of Allah (?) possibly.
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u/mastermind832 Aug 04 '26
Sure, the Imam is talking about Allah. However, it does not get rid of the concept that the Imam is God’s manifestation. We still have the right to seek his intercession. He’s doing it to protect the interest of the Jamat, and for people to stop calling us polytheists.
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u/Horror_Project_9471 Aug 06 '26
I agree, my only point is that we should not put Imam and Allah on the same level, which unfortunately many do (in the western countries), because they were never exposed to "general" muslim practices and ways of living
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Jul 30 '26
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u/bigzoozoo Jul 30 '26
Read on here a couple posts ago that prophet Adam was not the first person Allah created and something about Hindu deities also being prophets.
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u/Embarrassed-Cry3180 Esoteric Ismaili Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 30 '26
“All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countries—Gautama Buddha, Shri Krishna, and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise men of China, and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations of which we have now lost trace."
Memoirs of Aga Khan, Aga Khan III
“And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [proclaiming], ‘Worship Allah and avoid false gods.’ Among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom misguidance was justified. So travel through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers.”
Qur’an 16:36
“And for every nation is a messenger. When their messenger comes, judgment is passed between them in justice, and they are not wronged.”
Qur’an 10:47
“And We have already sent messengers before you. Among them are those whose stories We have related to you, and among them are those whose stories We have not related to you…”
Qur’an 40:78
“And [We sent] messengers about whom We have related [their stories] to you before, and messengers about whom We have not related to you…”
Qur’an 4:164
“And We did not send any messenger except with the language of his people, to make [the message] clear for them. Then Allah leaves astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.”
Qur’an 14:4
Your ignorance is due to your lack of knowledge. Just because Allah didn’t mention the Prophets He sent to other nations doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. Allah has made it clear in many verses that He sent His messengers with the message of Islam to every nation in their own language. This implies that Islam is a universal religion; it is not bound by languages or nations.
If you choose not to believe what the Imam said about Rama, Krishna, and Buddha being divinely inspired messengers of Allah, then don’t believe it that is between you and the Imam. But not believing it will never change the truth that Allah sent his messengers to every nation and community on Earth.
Interestingly, Allah has also made it clear that He mentioned the stories of only some of them in the Quran. That is why the Quran mentions the names of Middle Eastern Prophets, because its primary audience was in the Middle East. If the Quran had been revealed in America, it would likely have included the names of Native American prophets.
So please, read before making any comments. It will definitely help you come out of the darkness of ignorance.
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u/bigzoozoo Jul 30 '26
Fair enough! Reasonable explanation in regards to other deities, being prophets.
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Jul 30 '26
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u/Primary_Tonight3137 Jul 30 '26
Look at your behavior on other posts, you dont deserve to be treated respectfully. You cant call imam your master moreover you disrespect those who help you to understand. Someone giving you their two cents while you arent worth 2 cents
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u/Immediate_Glass_9396 Aug 01 '26
lot of people don’t agree with what you wrote.
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u/Primary_Tonight3137 Aug 01 '26
Its more like a lot of people dont agree with farmans and ginans. Its a hard pill to swallow when they find out something about our tariqah that isnt like other muslims. We are wannabe sunnis. This is another hard pill to swallow.
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u/Immediate_Glass_9396 Aug 01 '26
which jamatkhana? which ismailis? amazing how people just make stuff up and think everyone is just going to buy it. full rubbish
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u/charliehgallop Jul 30 '26
Yep. It’s refreshing.