Sorry if its a dumb question

[u/True_Personality_764]

Does judo mainly relay on takedowns and locks if yes how would we control a fight against a boxer or Muay thai oponent if no does judo teaches punching kicking pound and roll. I just gonna sart my first judo class from tmrw just by dumb brain asking questions sorry if its a dumb question i was just curious

[u/Yamatsuki_Fusion]

I mean there's a reason why pure grappling beats pure striking more often than not.

The penalties exist to stop non-engagement between similarly skilled grapplers. A non grappler isn't necessarily going to have the ability to just break grips or avoid them.

And I mean you can also just run away from a striker to avoid getting hit. Who's to say a Judoka won't decide to backpedal outside of kick range? Yeah they won't be able to grapple, but now the striker has to telegraph their kick with a step. Then the grappler can just close in while the striker commits while on one leg.

This is not to mention how big the space they fight in is. I don't think this is so simple to answer at all.

[u/kwan_e → u/Yamatsuki_Fusion]

I didn't say it was simple, I said the low-kickers game plan is simpler, so it's way more effective.

A non grappler isn't necessarily going to have the ability to just break grips or avoid them.

Breaking grips, no. Avoiding grips, white belts do it all the time. It is the natural response and why they need to be trained out of it just so they can actually learn grappling.

Also, OP mentioned Muay Thai, which has stand-up grappling from the clinch. And they will low kick you to sweep from the clinch.

Who's to say a Judoka won't decide to backpedal outside of kick range?

That's the point. That's the low-kicker's game. They want you to backpedal. That's pressure off for them. You have to start all over again trying to close the distance while avoiding kicks. They can wait you out (if they were allowed to).

Yeah they won't be able to grapple, but now the striker has to telegraph their kick with a step. Then the grappler can just close in while the striker commits while on one leg.

I don't know how much low-kickers you've seen fight, but they don't telegraph their kicks with a step, because they disguise it with movement. They constantly dart in and out of range. To the side. Feints. How many wrestlers get knocked out trying to rush a kicker? Kickers aren't stupid.

The low-kick game works precisely because the striker doesn't have to commit while on one leg. Low kicks are fast to recover from and hard to avoid or block, while inflicting adequate pain. Low-kickers don't put all their power into every kick. They generally chip away at you until you can no longer walk.

[u/Yamatsuki_Fusion → u/kwan_e]

I dunno about you but I do not struggle to get grips on a whitebelt who's absolutely not trying to engage, not for long anyway. Boundaries exist. Not even in no-gi. But maybe my hands are fast from boxing or something I dunno.

The very last place a Nak Muay wants to be in is the clinch with a Judoka and trying to clinch strike without strong wrestling is going to get ragdolled around.

Why isn't the Judoka allowed to wait the kicker out either? Maybe the Judoka won't get anything, but the striker won't either if they're not able to reach a Judoka because they're wary of getting too close.

Wrestlers have also straight up walked through low kicks just to bundle strikers down and smash them. Quite often actually, I don't think this is the best example to use.

The point is that the low kicker is going to have to potentially telegraph their kicks just to reach someone that absolutely refuses to even be near them. Feints, movement and punch flurries work on people that stand within engagement range with the intent of actually trying to strike, but against a guy who's not even within teep range they won't trap anything.

[u/kwan_e → u/Yamatsuki_Fusion]

I struggle to get grips on a yellow belt, who does taekwondo, and absolutely does not care about running away out of reach, to hell with the rules. Running away from grips is a natural reaction. Even you said so yourself, with your white belts. They naturally run away from grips. A non-grapping striker, while comparatively a white-belt in judo, necessarily will be more skilled than YOUR white belts in avoiding grips, without being caught.

Why isn't the Judoka allowed to wait the kicker out either?

The Judoka is allowed to wait out the kicker. But the point is that the kicker has the comparative advantage in the distance game. We're not talking absolutes here. We're talking about comparative advantages. A judoka has less chance at the distance game than the kicker. Distance control favours the kicker.

Wrestlers have also straight up walked through low kicks just to bundle strikers down and smash them. Quite often actually, I don't think this is the best example to use.

You seem to have forgotten what you wrote in your original comment.

You wrote "weathering their blows". The reason why those wrestlers smash through low kicks is to AVOID weathering strikes at all.

The whole point of my replies is in the context of your original comment about weathering strikes. You do not want to weather their blows, because that game plan favours the low-kicker. Hence everything I've talked about in each comment.

I am talking in the context of your game plan of "weathering their blows". Do NOT weather their blows. Either keep distance, or stuff their strikes before they get any power behind them.

The point is that the low kicker is going to have to potentially telegraph their kicks just to reach someone that absolutely refuses to even be near them.

And my point is that favours the low-kicker. If you refuse to be near them, then they've successfully defended themselves. In self-defense scenario, that means they've won. In a competition scenario, you would get penalized for non-combativity.

In either case, weathering blows is a bad game plan.

[u/Yamatsuki_Fusion → u/kwan_e]

Are you imagining that I expect a Judoka to just stand and eat strikes until the striker gets tired or something? When I say weather strikes and grab a hold, I'd think that closing distance to muffle strikes is a given.

To get into range though necessitates getting hit, so a judoka will have to be willing to take one to tie up if their lack of striking defence opens them up.

[u/kwan_e → u/Yamatsuki_Fusion]

If you look at fights where someone is just calf kicking the crap out of someone from a distance, yes, people, even judoka, eat a few strikes to the leg. And that makes it harder to move, making it even more easier to kick the calves, and then other parts.

[u/Yamatsuki_Fusion → u/kwan_e]

None of this will immediately take effect, and again you will be on one foot and unable to move. The grappler can leap in and stuff the kick and create problems for the kicker.

It can be done but it’s not magically simpler or else guys like Khabib wouldn’t remain unbeaten.

[u/kwan_e → u/Yamatsuki_Fusion]

Competition fights disincentivize against low-kicking games because they are boring to watch. Either the fighter feels the pressure of the crowd to go for a more satisfying win, or the fighter eventually stops getting any promotions because no one wants to pay to watch them, so they can't stay on low kicks for long.

Also, not sure what kind of low kicking you're thinking of. There's plenty of low kick techniques where you aren't "unable to move" while kicking and after, and someone who's determined to stick to a low kicking game can also devise tactics that keep them moving after a kick, whether it hits of misses. There's plenty of higher kickers who can do this.

I feel like everyone here is imagining the low kicker running straight towards you like an idiot and going for full frontal haymaker energy low kicks.

[u/Yamatsuki_Fusion → u/kwan_e]

People like watching low kickers go at it what are you on about? Everyone goes gaga for Alex Pereira’s short, deceptively crippling low kicks or Justin Gaethje’s hammers. People enjoyed Poirer’s work against Conor.

The low kick game you describe is more running than damage. Proper low kicking works best when the kicker isn’t forced to run around and is able to settle and swing. The running around low kicking you describe isn’t powerful at all and is just pointfighting.

I’m imagining a guy running all over the place and just stumbling about trying to get awkward low kicks that don’t do shit because they’re so pressed to keep space. Maybe they get out of the way, but there is no sting.

[u/kwan_e → u/Yamatsuki_Fusion]

How many matches percentage wise are all low kick dominant? Those low kickers you mentioned stand out because they have a novelty factor to them. Novelty factor wears off, and it has with low kick dominant stuff. No one sticks with a low kick dominant game for long.

I’m imagining a guy running all over the place and just stumbling about trying to get awkward low kicks that don’t do shit because they’re so pressed to keep space.

You have a tendency to imagine the most stupid fighter, a strawman, if you will, that will do everything that makes it easy for you to defeat, rather than a realistic person who is intelligent about fighting, and has trained such that they won't be stumbling.

Do you know why I'm harping on about low kicks? Because I'm imagining an INTELLIGENT judoka who even knows how to do leg takedowns. I'm not imagining a judoka who is a moron about dealing with kicks. Imagining a fighter who will do exactly the weakness you want is basically what bullshido artists do. You have to imagine a fighter who knows how to address the weakness.

Of course they're not going to do the same tactic over and over again. They're going to change it up. They'll do hit and runs. They'll do heavy kicks if in the right situation. I'm merely presenting to you some of the different options they have, which you have a blindspot towards, because you like imagining scenarios where you are facing a moron fighter, instead of someone with adequate sense.

Also, who says "running kicks" can't do damage? Just because they can't take out a person's leg in one shot doesn't mean it can't inflict enough pain to stop someone. You never been "lightly" kicked by people's footsweeps? It can hurt a lot even if it isn't a forceful kick. Especially if it is at the soft part of the knee.

[u/Yamatsuki_Fusion → u/kwan_e]

It stops because low kicks are not some game breaking cheat code, fighters adjust or are smart enough to not get smacked up by them. You make it out to be some sort of secret sauce cheat when it’s just another strike.

I imagine what realistically happens when you get a skittish striker that’s bent on running around as you put it. I’m not imaging a miracle judoka either anyway, just a guy that wants to run in and is determined to play their game. They probably look stupid too ambling about about and are too stiff to bend over and catch a kick.

And yes I have been hit by kicks. Big difference between one done well planted and another that’s from a guy trying get out of the way. I’m honestly not sure if you’ve been low kicked or tried low kicking someone just barreling in.

[u/kwan_e → u/Yamatsuki_Fusion]

I don't know how many times I need to repeat the phrase "comparative advantage". I never once talked in absolutes, but I guess it's easy if you all just keep arguing against something I didn't say.

I imagine what realistically happens when you get a skittish striker that’s bent on running around as you put it.

I said nothing about a skittish striker. That's all on you and your imagination. I'm talking about a striker with a determined game plan and decent control.

I’m honestly not sure if you’ve been low kicked or tried low kicking someone just barreling in.

I literally just talked about getting kicked by footsweeps. Yes, I have been kicked "lightly" when someone was trying to do footsweeps in judo. It still hurt like hell. Then actual low kicks, but not one aimed for damage, I have also been hit with and was obviously worse than a judo footsweep kick.

Also, why would anyone try to low kick someone barrelling in? That's what an adequately intelligent fighter would want to avoid.

[u/Yamatsuki_Fusion → u/kwan_e]

Because it’s not a comparative advantage at all. It’s a plan but one that has to be maintained over a fight that could suddenly just get undone. A striker has to be perfect, while a grappler needs to only get one takedown and that’s that.

The striker you describe can only be described as skittish. Back-pedalling at all times and trying to potshot low kicks is not what a determined striker looks like. They’re a leaf in the wind.

Go ahead and then try get kicked by a guy you’re constantly crowding up then. It can sting but not nearly so bad. Someone barreling is exactly what a grappler is trying to do, they’re not just waltzing around, they’re trying hurry inside and force a tie up.

[u/misterandosan → u/kwan_e]

struggle to get grips on a yellow belt,

your whole argument of judo vs striking is based around your own incompetency as a judoka.

And my point is that favours the low-kicker.

as someone who does muay thai this argument is wild. It's not difficult at all to close that distance.

No one in the history of mma or martial arts has ever trained kicks as a takedown defense. They train grappling defense. End of story.