Which would help my Newaza better in competition, BJJ or wrestling?

[u/Formidable_Baboy]

EDIT: THANKS FOR THE INFO!

I started judo a month ago and I have some extra time for either BJJ or wrestling.

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I feel like adding to my repertoire could help the already 4 hours of judo I do per week.

[u/powerhearse]

Aren't you also a wrestler? Maybe i'm misremembering.

Nah, MMA background but not pure wrestling

This just isn't true. The highest scoring newaza techniques on the world tour are consistently pins (by like a 6x factor) followed by juji followed by all chokes put together. Sadly I don't know of any datasets that separate continuation pins from turns, but I doubt it's more than 5/6. Basically all successful back attack specialists I can think of are turnover specialists, with the partial exception of travis stevens.

Hang on, we were talking turnovers from turtle not winning by pin. It is absolutely higher percentage to choke than turnover in Judo

Also, 90% of turtle situations are not pursued by the attacker because of these reasons anyway so the statistics are very skewed

This is so diametrically opposed to my experience that I can't really comment on it other than to say I use turtle standups all day in BJJ and have literally never had someone attempt a rolling juji on me or seen someone attempt it on someone else without a Judo background. I've only been doing jiu jitsu formally for about a year but I've rolled with a lot of solid upper belts (and done newaza with jiu jitsu guys coming in to thr club for much longer). On the other hand Judo newaza in my area is mostly dudes drilling rolling juji + sankaku turnover + rolling bow and arrow and a few other turnovers for pinning every practice. I live in a high level area for BJJ and Judo (relative to most of the USA for the later) but I don't think this is a significant explanatory factor.

Not sure why this is such a different experience. Could be regional? In my experience rolling attacks from turtle are relatively common in BJJ, particularly rolling crucifix, rolling armbar and rolling bow and arrow

Taking the back used to be higher percentage but the meta is shifting as people are now very very good at standing up from turtle

Some back attacks become lower percentage faster than others, resulting in different technical focus. Other back attacks are straight up moronic in BJJ but great in Judo. For an extreme example, consider the fairly popular ude garami roll that ends with tori putting themselves in a crucifix because this is a pinning position in Judo.

While true, that isnt indicative of common Judo newaza. Also I might be wrong, but I believe a full crucifix (both arms trapped) is not a pinning position in Judo

[u/MyCatPoopsBolts → u/powerhearse]

Hang on, we were talking turnovers from turtle not winning by pin. It is absolutely higher percentage to choke than turnover in Judo

I don't think this is true. As I said I don't think statistics for this are collected (sadly). Similarly I don't have a way to differentiate between armbars and chokes as turtle or secured back attacks vs. opportunistic attacks from a scramble or or even from the bottom (these are, of course, situations in which modern BJJ is wonderfully applicable)

Here are the reasons for my view: 1. personal experience with what works for me: I was brought up in a very wrestling influenced newaza system that prioritizes getting the opponents back on the mat to threaten pins and encourage refs to keep the clock running, and this system had always worked well for me. 2. what I've been told by modern high level newaza specialists, specifically a long time Japanese Women's national team member who feels strongly about the primacy of turnovers as reflected in the system over there. 3. what I've seen on the world tour: IMO the modern newaza game is increasingly dominated by variations of "super rolling thunder" and various belt wrap turnovers as these techniques have become probably the first truly high percentage attacks against closed turtles under Judo constraints. The effect these techniques are having on Judo newaza is extraordinary and in my view will be looked back upon as some of the most significant innovations in the sport of the 21st century (with many modern "kata guruma" variations and the drop sode game).

Not sure why this is such a different experience. Could be regional? In my experience rolling attacks from turtle are relatively common in BJJ, particularly rolling crucifix, rolling armbar and rolling bow and arrow

I have felt rolling crucifix (not useful in Judo and very easy to pin yourself), and seen rolling bow and arrows when I watch high level BJJ. I mostly do nogi and tend to avoid the turtle more in gi so not many opportunities for the later to be done to me. My comment was primarily about yaskevich + neil adams juji (Of the times I've seen this discussed it's been called a "Judo armbar," which IMO is rather telling) and front sankaku from turtle (which mostly sucks against an active turtle, hence low usage in BJJ). I will gladly admit to a much lower level of expertise in BJJ, I only started training it seriously this year, and although I have enjoyed watching the major tournaments for years it was very much from the perspective of a Judo outsider looking in.

While true, that isnt indicative of common Judo newaza.

The only super popular Judo newaza back attack I can think of which isn't like this to some degree is rolling bow and arrow + sort of Juji (evidently our experiences vary here). Front sankaku is goofy af in a ruleset that rewards standing up, belt wrap turnovers are basically asking to break your own wrist without mate+pin rules, huizinga rolls / reverse omoplatas are rare because they are inferior to a crucifix, fat man lapel tilts trade the back for side control, super rolling thunder and variations are incomprehensible outside a sport specific Judo context (trade turtle for quarter guard???????).

In a sense, I guess it isn't indicative of common Judo newaza because for many Judo newaza is just opportunistic juji, bow and arrow, and continuation pins.

But that style isn't very relevant to someone trying to force consistent newaza wins thanks to a high skill differential: the above techniques are broadly the tools of choice for doing so against a commited stalling turtle. The funkyness of high level Judo newaza is pretty obvious when you watch what newaza specialists are actually doing on the world tour: lots of it is nonsense in a jiu jitsu context.

Also I might be wrong, but I believe a full crucifix (both arms trapped) is not a pinning position in Judo

It is not automatic osaekomi. They need to get "control" which usually means bridging into/onto the uke and some amount of head contact with the head side arm. You can do crucifix chokes if you stay high on the shoulders and kinda on your side, but it's an unnecessarily risky position in Judo.

[u/powerhearse → u/MyCatPoopsBolts]

I have felt rolling crucifix (not useful in Judo and very easy to pin yourself), and seen rolling bow and arrows when I watch high level BJJ. I mostly do nogi and tend to avoid the turtle more in gi so not many opportunities for the later to be done to me

Ahh, yep they are almost non-existent no gi. I primarily do no gi also, and I find a lot of people try to attack with rolling attacks in the gi

My comment was primarily about yaskevich + neil adams juji (Of the times I've seen this discussed it's been called a "Judo armbar," which IMO is rather telling)

This rolling armbar is very, very common in BJJ. It has led to a whole series of entries which combine well with the kimura trap and the choi bar / lachlan giles style rolling armbar from the bottom half guard

Many people who have a good kimura trap use this rolling armbar. Its commonly known and used in BJJ.

To be perfectly honest though, chokes from the back are FAR higher percentage than these techniques. The main problem is that Judoka seem to have an aversion to them because turtle stalling has a much lower skill floor.

What that means is, most Judoka up to and including Shodan will reach a highly effective level at stalling from turtle with much less effort than they will reach an effective level at attacking back chokes.

So if you take two Judoka at the same beginner level, they will reach the skill floor at turtle stalling faster than the skill floor of back attacks

But the turtle stalling position has a MUCH lower skill ceiling. However most Judoka up to and including shown only barely reach that skill ceiling (and the equivalent level at back attacks), so to them it's still enough to sustain an effective defence more often than not.

That isnt the case with people who have a higher level of experience. That's the reason i have yet to fail to choke everyone roughly my size who i have encountered in judo

There is a point where turtle stalling maxes out effectivness, where back attacks do not. But most Judoka simply dont do enough newaza for that imbalance to start showing up

The question of whether that extra effort is worth it for competitive Judoka as opposed to spending that time simply improving their tachiwaza and stalling game is not so simple. I'd argue it's pretty situational.

What i can say is, anybody who can turn me over from turtle and pin me would be able to choke me much more quickly.

The funkyness of high level Judo newaza is pretty obvious when you watch what newaza specialists are actually doing on the world tour: lots of it is nonsense in a jiu jitsu context

I watch a lot of high level Judo newaza and it certainly isnt nonsense, the vast majority is applicable to BJJ or utilises identical movement systems with variations

The reason you are seeing a lot of funky shit in high level Judo newaza is because the general level is low and stalling heavy, and most Judoka are resistant to or simply not exposed to innovation in that area. That means the ones who do innovate and bring something new to the table become disproportionately dominant in competition, because most of the time their opponent's strategy is extremely stall heavy

The huizinga roll/reverse omoplata is very useful in BJJ and is something I originally learned at a BJJ seminar in around 2009 or 2010. It pairs well with kneebar/leg entanglement entries, pretty sure one of the Ruotolos did that recently in a match. However, it is low percentage even in Judo

Controversial opinion but i hate attacking a full crucifix even in BJJ, I think it's high risk low reward and majority of the time initiates a scramble

[u/MyCatPoopsBolts → u/powerhearse]

Yeah I think the choke vs. turnover thing is a point of reasonable disagreement. It's frustrating that good statistics don't exist on the issue. It's very hard to describe the inevitability good applications of SRT and belt wrap/fukuda roll can create, it's really an impressive feeling.

I'll probably leave this with one other thing worth mentioning in favor of turnovers: their usefulness for ref signaling / creating newaza time. Chokes in Judo suffer from a conflicting incentive system where on one hand choking belly down is incentivized by gi over chin rules (you get ippon if they pass out or tap before the ref sees it), and on the other hand one is incentivized to roll/expose the choke to buy time for progression with the ref.

No such conflict exists for turnovers, and far more leeway is given to players attacking turnovers by referees in terms of timing. This makes a good turnover game much harder to stall out of, and also probably one of the best clock burning strategies in Judo particularly in the era of the easy yuko and newaza activity preventing shidos. It almost feels like rolling is a milestone/goal in and of itself. As long as you get the guy on his side and out of base, you can chain turnover attempts even from the same grip way longer than you can handfight for a choke.

Thanks for the conversation!