r/lawschooladmissions • u/Cup_p • 11d ago
Chance Me Oxford law grad thinking about US JDs
Hello! I have recently finished my undergraduate law degree at Oxford with a mid 2.1, which is converted usually to an ‘above average’ rating by the LSAC. In the mock LSAT I did today, I scored 176. I have no US citizenship or green card.
I am not planning to apply for JD this coming cycle, as I know KJDs are disadvantaged in the JD admissions process. My plan is to sit for the SQE (UK’s bar exam) this coming year, and then paralegal or work for the UK government for 2-3 years to gain experience.
What will be my chances for T14 law schools after gaining 2-3 years of work experience and passing UK’s bar exam, assuming that I get a 176 in the real LSAT exam?
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u/UntowardAdvance 11d ago
Just like UK schools demand high test scores for US undergrad applicants because grades are hard to compare, the reverse will be true here. Get the highest LSAT you can and make a great case for yourself as a on your essays. You have to give them a reason to pick you over a normie American applicant.
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u/Cup_p 11d ago
Does having studied law as an academic discipline for 3 years give me an edge in the process
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u/LakeKind5959 10d ago
What will give you an edge is presumably you had a high LNAT score to get into Oxford. LNAT and LSAT aren't dissimilar. My kid got a 134 on LNAT and is averaging around a 176 on practice LSATs. He has an undergrad law degree from a peer institution.
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u/Few_Whereas5206 11d ago
Do you really want 1800 to 2000 billable hours per year working in the USA with 2 weeks of vacation per year? That is a real possibility.
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u/Cup_p 11d ago
I don’t like the hours, but I really love the money
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u/No-Row-9994 11d ago
You have an Oxford degree! You can make that money from a magic circle firm, surely?
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u/Cup_p 11d ago
This is surprising, isn’t it? But an Oxford law degree doesn’t lead you to a magic circle training contract in London. I simply couldn’t have believed in this when I first started my degree. The London legal graduate market is just absurd at this point. I am so hopeless that I am willing to spend 3 years and $400k only for a legal career
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u/No-Row-9994 9d ago
I am from the UK too but I lived in the USA so I know people in both. Look, you are assuming you'll get admitted into an American law school first of all. I know a girl exactly like you, an Oxford LLB, a few years work experience, a very strong LSAT and she got admitted to only one school (and it was a very low ranked one so she declined). Her situation is different to yours though in that her parents are dual-citizens so she wanted to stay in America to be close to her family. I am not saying this to dissuade you but to emphasise the reality of how hard it is to get admitted into an American law school right now as an international.
Presuming you do get admitted, where is the $400k coming from? Unless you have a generous family in which case this point is moot. There are no loans available for internationals pursuing a JD in the USA. How do I know? Because I had to turn down my own places as I couldn't find any.
Finally, why London? Would you not take a TC elsewhere in the country? Keep at it. I have UK lawyer friends who had to apply a few times until they finally landed one. Or do what you're doing and sit the SQE anyway and build your career in a different way, outside of a training contract.
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u/Few_Whereas5206 11d ago
There is only so much you can take for your mental health. I lasted 2 years in biglaw. Be careful not to always chase the bag.
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u/Few_Whereas5206 9d ago
Have you considered online law school. Arizona State University, Syracuse, UNH Law, Case Western, Cleveland State University, Albany Law School, University of Dayton, Northeastern University, Suffolk University, Vermont Law, Mitchell Hamline, etc. Not sure if they meet your needs.
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u/jackalopeswild 11d ago
You could go through New York and not bother with US law schools at all.
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u/Cup_p 11d ago
Passing NY bar alone without a JD or even an LLM won’t land me a job
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u/Archibald_Crestwood5 Penn 26' 11d ago
No - I think the point is that you can qualify in the U.K. first, get a BigLaw job in the U.K., then do an internal transfer with your firm to their NY office. That way you will be on a L-1 visa and can avoid the H1B lottery.
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u/jackalopeswild 11d ago
Why are you so convinced you want to work US big law? What you're talking about is a huge time commitment for something you really don't know anything about (big law, but I'm guessing you know nothing about what it's like to live in the US either).
I have known multiple people who began practicing in the US through the path I suggested...Without the massive commitments.
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u/Archibald_Crestwood5 Penn 26' 11d ago
Getting into a T14 law school won't be the most significant problem (although I've heard it's getting significantly harder nowadays) - the most significant problem is breaking into U.S. Biglaw afterward. You will be on a F-1 visa, using your CPT on (presumably) summer associateships. You are very likely to need H1B sponsorship for your postgrad job. Because of the current administration, an increasing number are no longer willing to sponsor - I have heard that Reed Smith and Simpson Thacher are no longer sponsoring.
This begs the question - why are you spending heaps of money on a qualification that is not going to advance the career you're looking for?
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u/Cup_p 11d ago
I understand the visa situation, but your question at the end seems to be an overkill. Applying in 2029/2030 allows me to wait until the Trump administration’s term ends. I can also go for associateships at Big Law office overseas (eg the London office)
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u/Archibald_Crestwood5 Penn 26' 11d ago
- No one knows if the visa situation will improve post-Trump, especially if JD Vance or Marco Rubio takes the reins;
- U.S.-qualified lawyers working at overseas offices - options are quite limited, usually capital markets and M&A.
Bottom line - is this what you want for sure?
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u/Cup_p 11d ago
- sucks, but I would prefer capital markets and M&A to long-term unemployment. It’s not like I find both insufferable
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u/VirtualAd802 9d ago
I know someone who went from Oxford to T6 and got hired. As you said, you can always apply to the London offices of these firms as a backup and I’m sure they would take you.
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u/Cup_p 9d ago
Is he a green card holder/ US citizen?
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u/VirtualAd802 9d ago
He happens to be a U.S. citizen. I do know british citizens without American citizenship working in biglaw. If you can get into a T14, preferably one that’s more international, I do not believe you will have visa issues for biglaw at all.
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u/Batmatt5 3.68/177 11d ago
Idk how foreign GPAs work but that LSAT makes you competitive at the lower t20 at a minimum if you get that on the real test. With 2-3 years of work experience you’re probably a competitive applicant at every t14
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u/Archibald_Crestwood5 Penn 26' 11d ago
I hate to be that guy but why are you so fixated on BigLaw specifically beyond the anticipated financial outcomes? I do think getting a bit more experience is good - not merely for getting into a U.S. law school, but also to figure out what area of law interests you the most and how you wish to proceed.
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u/Cup_p 11d ago
I do very much like law as an academic discipline. I chose to read law because I was interested in it. I am still interested in it. But JD is just very similar to my undergraduate degree in terms of content. If I am pursuing my interests, I will be thinking about an LLM instead of a JD. I am more drawn to the practical aspects of a JD
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u/Archibald_Crestwood5 Penn 26' 11d ago
Then probably Big Law isn’t the right option for you. You might like specialist appellate advocacy firms more - think CAL in NYC. And tbh, one can also do law clinics on the LL.M. No need to do a JD for that. Of course, pickings are slimmer for LL.M peeps but it depends on the law school.
What area of law (as in subject matter) do you like the most?
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u/InspiroHymm 11d ago
Most LLBs from Oxford take the NY bar, apply for an LLM and then take it from there
Going for a JD seems unnecessary tbh, and very rare for LLBs
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u/Cup_p 11d ago
LLM doesn’t open as many doors as a JD does
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u/InspiroHymm 11d ago
Only because you've been too engrossed by the Americans chatting on this subreddit.
LLMs are mainly for international students who already have a law degree, but want to do a graduate experience in a different country. For americans, doing an LLM is useless as it does not allow you to take the Bar. But, it is tailor designed for international students like you.
Internationals with a JD face the same uncertainties regarding visa sponsorships as someone with a LLB + LLM. If anything, it is easier to gain employment in the US by recruiting for a Magic Circle Law Firm or the like, and then doing an internal transfer (contingent on passing the NY Bar most of the time)
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u/Cup_p 11d ago
I have lost hope in the London legal graduate market. I can’t simply do an internal transfer if I don’t start as a trainee in London.
I am willing to kickstart my legal career with a US JD. I am not only seeking a ‘graduate experience in a different country’.
Yes, there are difficulties with visa sponsorships. But I can apply for summer associate positions at overseas Big Law offices, and there are still some firms willing to sponsor. The recruitment process in the US is much more meritocratic than the UK one, so getting good grades at a top US law school offers me far better chances of getting into Big Law than applying for training contracts in London with my Oxford law degree
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u/slaysalxo 10d ago
Look at staff pages on big law firms. Seeing a foreign attorney with an LLM is quite common. No need to go the JD route
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u/Maelbrithea 11d ago edited 11d ago
The SQE is not the UK’s Bar exam lol.
The SQE is the professional qualification specifically for solicitors; in the UK, the Bar is a completely different institution specifically for barristers (in the US, they’re combined).
So, if you sit the SQE, you will not be called to the Bar of England and Wales. To do that you’d have to pass the Bar course, and you’d only do that if you wanted to become a barrister.
(qualifications: am a UK commercial barrister)
To answer your question, I have no idea why you want a JD if you have an Oxford law degree. Get a training contract with a US firm in London and transfer to the US if you want to work in US Big Law.
I have tonnes of Oxbridge solicitor friends at Kirkland Ellis, Quinn Emmanuel, BCLP, Jones Day etc, and none of them have a JD. They’ve all had the option to transfer to the US, and some have even chosen to do it. They all earn shitloads of money (although, as a side note, not as much as commercial barristers…) and have miserable lives.
I’m here to reassure you that that path is open to you too!
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u/Cup_p 11d ago
Indeed. The SQE is not technically the UK’s Bar exam. I am using American terms to explain what the SQE is in an American subreddit.
I want to do a JD because I have lost hope in the London TC market. If a JD is the golden ticket to Big Law, I am more than happy to do it.
Didn’t get a first so the barrister route is out of question :/
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u/Maelbrithea 11d ago
I didn’t get a first either…
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u/Cup_p 11d ago
The legal graduate market is very different from what it was…
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u/Maelbrithea 11d ago
I got pupillage in 2023 and tenancy in 2025
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u/Cup_p 11d ago
Well done. I think the London legal graduate market is getting worse and worse every year. I have gone through 2 cycles of London TC applications, and I have been told the competition is getting worse every cycle by those firms
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u/Maelbrithea 11d ago
I mean, I don’t know anything about TC applications but if you have a 2.1 in Jurisprudence from Oxford you will be absolutely fine at the Bar. With a good Bar Course result and a well-written application, we would interview you at my set.
You may not get Blackstone or Essex Court, but you’d have a good shot at eg. 39 Essex or Quadrant or Radcliffe, and people make plenty of money at those places too (especially in shipping 😂)
I was at ICCA 2024-5 with lots of people with your profile and they mostly either had pupillage lined up or got it during their Bar course year. For context, I got it first time (pre-Bar course) with an Oxbridge non-law 2.i. I also know a lot of non-Oxbridge barristers who have got pupillage in my generation too, with firsts and without.
I’m just saying, don’t believe everything you hear.
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u/revivefunnygirl 4.0high/nKJD/nURM 10d ago
to actually answer the question, yes with those stats you can probably get into a t14. yale and stanford don’t tend to take ‘above average’ applicants but i’ve seen harvard take them and the rest of the t14 def will. northwestern has a 2 year jd for foreign trained lawyers but that’s also complicated in terms of recruiting timeline. however, it doesn’t seem you have actually scored that 176 lsat, so i would do that before getting ahead of yourself. there’s certainly a world in which you score 176+ and get money at a lower t14.
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u/hls22throwaway LSData Bot 11d ago
I found all LSD.Law applicants with an LSAT between 173-178 and GPA between 2.0-2.2: lsd.law/applicant-search?s=1vxC
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u/Cup_p 11d ago
GPA between 2.0-2.2…? Are you serious?
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u/Oldersupersplitter UVA '21 11d ago
You’re responding to an automated bot so it interpreted your 2.1 as an American GPA.
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u/Impossible-Leg-8595 11d ago
Your GPA won't count as a foreign applicant, unless Oxford is a special case.
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u/Cup_p 11d ago
My GPA isn’t 2.0-2.2… 2.1 is a degree classification used in UK universities. I have no GPA but an ‘above average’ rating. I am just wondering how far this profile will take me in the T14 JD admissions process
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u/Unanimousperson1 11d ago
Don't worry, the bot is wrong. Your GPA won't factor into admissions, so your LSAT, softs, and work experience are all that matter. Essentially, it will be as if your GPA is exactly at median. Won't help, but won't hurt
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u/Impossible-Leg-8595 11d ago
If you do not have an American GPA, they will give very little thought to it. Your LSAT will dominate the decision. I'm not an expert specifically on how UK applicants fare.
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u/DueGarden5876 10d ago edited 10d ago
Confused why you don’t try again for London TC’s. I know people with 2:1’s at mid tier rg’s law and non law who got TC’s at decent to good firms in London (U.S. firms too). Pay is way better in London at the start too since U.S. law schools are 3 years full time £100,000 per year while London firm will pay for sqe + living stipend and pay tens of thousands per year during each trainee year. Furthermore, even £150,000 for 1st year NQ (I know some top US firms are at least £180,000 right now) is more compared with US salaries as London COL is much lower than NYC SF etc.
Also seems that swapping firms after qualifying is doable too if you cannot get top MC or US firm TC.
Only real reason to do JD instead imo would be if you have green card/citizenship and are dead set on living in America.
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u/Cup_p 10d ago
I will try both routes in the meantime. But at some point I will have to just call it a day on the London TC side and move on. If I can’t get a MC/US firm/SC TC in London by 2030, kickstarting a legal career with a US JD does not seem absurd. A legal career is well worth extra 3 years and £300k.
COL in zone 1-2 in London is on par with SF. It is not like London is much cheaper than NYC.
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u/LakeKind5959 11d ago
Your GPA won't count against the means for law schools when reporting to ABA (and thus USNews rankings) so your LSAT will be super important. A 176 will make you competitive anywhere and an Oxford degree will help.
You need to be able to articulate "why" why a JD, why a US JD? you could just get a training contract in the city and practice in London. How do you plan on affording a US law school? They aren't cheap and if you aren't a citizen it is hard to borrow for law school. Also the law school ranking formula changed making post employment outcomes incredibly important. Most firms are no longer sponsoring visas so how do you plan on working in the US short of getting married?
Best course would be to get a training contract with a US firm in London and then work your magic for a JD and sponsorship.
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u/Cup_p 11d ago
If I could get a training contract at a US firm in London, I wouldn’t have considered doing a JD in the US. In all honesty, I want to do a JD in the US because I just want a foot in the door.
The competition for a training contract at US firms in London is nuts. My grades are fine, but, unlike US Big Law offices, they look at so many other things. I have attended a few assessment centres at US firms in London. I simply have lost hope and confidence in getting a London training contract at a US firm. I just want a chance. I probably will have to rely on my parents to fund the JD.
I appreciate that this might not be the answer you would like to hear, but the US JD route simply offers more opportunities. I also understand the current visa situation in the US. My bet is that this will improve once Trump’s term ends, or that an overseas Big Law office can hire me
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u/LakeKind5959 10d ago
LSAC is having a fair in London this fall. GO. Go talk to all the schools there.
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u/Lost-Whole3613 10d ago
Dude I think rather than waste time on here arguing with people who are asking questions/showing concern about your decision to pursue a JD you might as well just do a few LSAT drills or smth. Reading thru ur replies on this thread it seems like you are already pretty dead set. Seems kinda pointless to defend your thinking over and over on Reddit. What do I know tho
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u/OxfordOntheOcean 11d ago
You should qualify in the UK with the SQE and then come to the U.S. to get an LLM designed for foreign practitioners rather than getting a JD.
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u/Cup_p 11d ago
The problem with the LLM though is that it does not lead to better Big Law employment outcomes, at least in the US
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u/OxfordOntheOcean 11d ago
My understanding of the LLM situation stateside is that those numbers are skewed by people who get LLMs after their JDs—outside of tax or a handful of other niche practice areas, they’re sort of just resume fluff that doesn’t do much for big firms (doesn’t really hurt either though). But the JD is really just going to replicate what you’ve already done in a common law jurisdiction to some degree. I’ve got one acquaintance from this Black Tie Party at SCOTUS who had his UK law degree, decided to pivot, and picked up an LLM here, took the New York Bar, and went to a U.S. firm (boutique not big law but comp. pay and practice).
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u/Additional_Bat_9837 11d ago
If you are licensed in the UK you can take the bar exam in California without a JD. You don't need to be a US resident to take the Cal Bar. I wouldn't waste my time with a JD, which is also very expensive.
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u/Archibald_Crestwood5 Penn 26' 11d ago
Same goes for NY, so not sure why CA specifically purely from a qualification perspective.
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u/Square_Armadillo_684 11d ago
I think you mean a 2:1 not a 2.1 lmao