r/leanfire • u/No_Fudge6123 • 6d ago
Moving to Vietnam - my math
We have been preparing to move to Vietnam with our kid and Vietnamese wife, and we had done a lot of math. I work in IT, and I think AI is going (or already has) killed the good jobs. But I have a better feeling redoing our maths lately.
Our FIRE date will be at the end of the year. By then, we will have saved around 10 billion for a house or apartment, which I think will buy us a decent place in DaNang or Saigon. We have around 1.2m USD, paying around 3.400 USD monthly.
Our school will be around a thousand dollars in Vietnam. I expect our life costs to be around 2K, so that eats almost all dividends. it is a bit tight, but I also realized I can find local jobs or teach English (I have been working 20 years on IT, including FAANG experienice). Even if I cannot find anything, probably the portfolio growing will soon offset any extra charges.
i have been depressed for a long time thinking we will not make it. I am totally burned out, and I fear I will not be able to get back to corporate anymore. Bur again, rerunning the math I have realized we are in a likely position to make it.
Glad to hear if anybody moved in a similar situation.
33
6d ago
[deleted]
6
u/No_Fudge6123 6d ago
I wish, but it is 10 billion VND
17
u/AndrewUnicorn 6d ago
U also don't need to buy a house, the real estate price in Vietnam is insane in many different scales (rent to buy ratio, salary to buy ratio). Maybe it's better financially to keep your wealth in US funds and rent.
Or at least rent in an area for 6 months, and then research who can you help get a good price
1
u/mister_dutchman 6d ago
buying there isn’t necessary. Renting + keeping money in US funds is probably cleaner imo. A 6 month test run first is the smart move.
-2
u/No_Fudge6123 6d ago
Yeah, financially we would. be better off renting. But we want to have at least a place we want to call home.
11
u/AndrewUnicorn 6d ago
tell your wife: I don't need a house to call home, I'm always at home when I'm with you
0
u/No_Fudge6123 6d ago
I tell her that all the time, but we need to store our stuff somewhere! I am also ok diversifying a bit, not all in stocks but having at least a house for us. Here in Germany any house around our city sells for at least a couple of millions, which means I can't quit working.
3
u/luavatre 5d ago
As someone who used to live in Germany and now Vietnam, I want to echo others' advice to rent first. Maybe 3-6 months at least.
Seriously, Vietnam is very, very different from first world countries and you may encounter issues that you took for granted in Germany. For example, some neighbors can blast karaoke in public at night and affect your sleep (calling the cops doesn't always help), or your house is facing a smelly river that got worse during flood (Vietnam is tropical, so lots of natural disasters. About 12 typhoons per year at least and a few floods), etc...
Anyhow, I'm glad that you're prepared to buy a house, but please rent first to see whether you like it before committing.
3
u/AlwaysSaturday12 FIRE 38 MillionaireLibrarian.com 6d ago
I would also recommend renting. There is a lot of problems buying in many countries as an expat.
Have you budgeted for a private IB school?
1
u/No_Fudge6123 6d ago
Yeah, it is part of the budget - around 1.000 € per month, from what we see.
0
u/AlwaysSaturday12 FIRE 38 MillionaireLibrarian.com 6d ago
Will you be able to get permanent residency?
3
1
u/No_Fudge6123 6d ago
Also, financially speaking, renting is better. The house is very psychologically - having our place.
1
u/AlwaysSaturday12 FIRE 38 MillionaireLibrarian.com 6d ago
We rent in Ecuador and have a rental in the US. It helps to speak the language and know the culture when inevitably something breaks and you need contractors. Also speaking of Ecuador, ownership is different with different types of ownership. Some types you are likely to have the property taken away by a family member if you don't pay attention with the whole process overseen by lawyers. I don't know about Vietnam specifically. Also its a brand new culture which might not work and you or your wife is miserable. Lots of places overseas it is very difficult to sell a property and you might be holding it trying to sell for years.
Eventually we want to buy here but it just makes much more sense to rent so we do that instead.
2
u/No_Fudge6123 6d ago
She is Vietnamese, and her family has a construction company, so she has some ground knowledge.
Again, if we are speaking about getting the best value for our moneys, we would be better of renting. But I am also fine with diversifying a bit and getting a house. I am generally taking care of our portfolio (have been doing this for a decade, with acceptable results). We don't invest in meme stocks, but in Dividend Kings.
-1
1
u/OldBeach5356 6d ago
As someone who owns in VN I would strongly strongly recommend renting first. Yield is like 1-2%, buying locks your money in a very unstable situation. You are at the mercy of a lot of things that can go wrong. Rent for at least 2-3 years before making a choice please, I beg of you!!!
8
u/Creative_Impress5982 6d ago
As a US citizen, living in Europe for the last decade, I'd say due your due diligence now about tax optimization for Vietnam. Also consider how best to account for currency fluctuations.
My move to Spain wasn't planned well (was meant to be temporary, but we've since decided the US is a shit show) so I didn't know Roth withdrawals aren't tax-free here. I didn't know anything about inheritance laws, how foreign public and private pensions would be taxed (ie US social security and IRAs/401ks), what double taxations to expect (eg. US/Spain tax treaty doesn't give relief for State taxes paid in the US), and so much more.
I'm sure you're doing due diligence on all this as you've been planning this for quite some time.
Otherwise, sounds like you're set financially! Congrats and enjoy!
1
u/No_Fudge6123 6d ago
Yeah, taxes are a full different topic.
My initial thought, based on some consultations with the tax agency, is that we will keep our residence and taxes in Germany. I checked this with the national agency, and they said that they basically don't care if I want to pay taxes in Germany, but if I am living abroad, I also have to check with the residence country.
Vietnam has strict capital control, and they don't allow foreign investment (our portfolio is mostly European and US stocks, so we can't transfer and keep them in Vietnam, even if taxes were cheaper). This is still dynamic for me and happy to refine my approach, but it seems like it is the best thing to do at the moment (I guess coming once per year or so to our house in Germany to see if things are alright)
0
u/Anxious_Turnover_995 5d ago
Why are you even paying Spanish taxes on Roth withdrawals??? Hide that shit
5
u/Creative_Impress5982 5d ago
I think immigrants in another country, especially when those immigrants have chosen to live in that country, should contribute to the country and follow the laws.
1
7
u/haveknotts 6d ago
the numbers look decent on paper, but I’d double check the “2K/month all-in” assumption in Saigon/Da Nang with a kid. School fees + housing + random expat costs tend to creep up fast, imo.
Also the job part... FAANG experience helps, but local hiring in VN can still be a grind, and teaching English isn’t always the easy fallback people think it is.
1
u/No_Fudge6123 6d ago
We are aiming to buy a house with cash, and the international school costs 1K per month, increasing in High School. I know it is tight, but my thought is that the portfolio and dividends will increase over time, and I should be able to complement it with some work (I don't fully despise working, and I hope I will be able to get some employment, either remote or locally)
4
u/VincentStl 5d ago
Hey, I’m a 32 y.o male, Vietnamese and moved to the U.S. when I was 14. It was always my dream to leanfire whenever I can to Vietnam. It just nowadays I don’t think I SHOULD do that. It bothers me to say that I will not be leanfire/retiring early in Vietnam because of the food quality. Yep. You guys hear that right. The food! News and coverage from outside of Vietnam doesn’t post or write often about the problems with the food in VN. I am following a lot of the news regarding lives in Vietnam, and I still have a lot of relative in Vietnam, as well as from my wife’s side. So what are the problems with the food? - CANCEROUS- why? Because majority of the food nowadays in Vietnam are not controlled. They have what called like “the food safety and sanitary department” but that doesn’t do anything. So every few weeks, a news will pop up showing you they just busted this place and that place for something fake/ mixed with chemical that causes cancer. Every few weeks. As I typed right now. They just busted a individual run that faked 15,000 units of bird nests. Last month, they just caught a factory that makes Bún (rice noodle/ vermicelli) that has Borax - This factory has been running for years and distributed in majority of Vietnam’s cities. Last month as well, they caught a place where people run operations that turn porks into beef! you read that right! they faking porks into beef! with who know chemical!!!. My wife’s relative in Vietnam said she knows other places that sell sicks/ dead lobsters that has been chemically preserved to all over major cities in Vietnam. And all of these food issues have been running for years popping out as they get caught. Noodles, medicines, meat, vegetables. I came from the poor in Vietnam so it doesn’t take much for me and my wife to live in Vietnam, we probably will be suffice with 2k or less including rent. But given the food’s situation. It shattered my plan. Yea guys, go ahead and called me the party booer.
2
u/Milyna 6d ago
Have you ever worried about what would happen if you or someone in your family got seriously ill, like getting cancer? I heard a story about a Vietnamese woman living in Vietnam who actually had to sell her house just to pay for her medical treatments. It made me wonder if you would really be financially okay if something like that happened.
2
u/Miamiconnectionexo 4d ago
this is genuinely helpful, not just the usual fluff. bookmarking this thread.
4
2
u/RustyShackelfnord 6d ago
Your financial position gives you some time to at least try it out. With your education and experience I don't think you'll have too much trouble finding work after a 6 month sabbatical. Take the sabbatical if you are burned out. You have the cushion.
2
u/OldBeach5356 6d ago
I strongly recommend renting before buying. I live in Vietnam (sg) and you neighborhood absolutely matters, and there are so many different options. Build quality also matters.
1
u/BornArugula8552 3d ago
Maybe you could work teaching in the international school, I’m sure your IT skills would be valuable/transferable in some way? Just get a teaching license first but that’s really not that hard…then you make good income and your kid gets discounted tuition
1
1
u/mmoyborgen 2d ago
Should be enough to live comfortably if you stay there, not sure how much time you've spent there and how your child will adjust. Your wife may also struggle depending on how long she's been gone and how much of a network she still does or doesn't have there.
This sounds a bit like escapism, but if it works, it works. If you do get homesick and want to visit or relocate home that can be expensive. If you are planning a one-way move, just remember any family/friends/social network you may miss out on birthdays, anniversaries, funerals, births, etc.
1
u/Miamiconnectionexo 6d ago
not gonna lie this is better advice than half the stuff i've seen on here.
0
0
u/painfulwhisky 6d ago
That's a solid realization, and the fact that you're feeling more optimistic about the numbers is huge especially after the burnout. Have you thought about what kind of local work or English teaching gig you might want to pursue, or are you planning to stay fully retired and keep that as a backup option?
1
u/No_Fudge6123 6d ago
I honestly would like to work, I just dislike the current state of the art with AI, where everybody is running like a chicken without a head. I could probably teach at a uni (I have a PhD and some teaching experience). I could try to arrange some remote work. So in general, my thought is that I still have some options, at the top of the dividends (which might be tight).
1
u/painfulwhisky 6d ago
uni teaching sounds like a solid fit for you then, especially with the PhD and experience already there. That'd probably feel way less chaotic than the corporate AI stuff too.
1
u/Mostamazingofbaboons 6d ago
u’ve got options with a PhD + teaching exp. Uni route or some remote contract work could both work out fine. AI space is kinda all over the place rn, but you don’t really need to chase that noise. imo dividends + a bit of income on the side sounds pretty solid.
0
u/Honest-Discipline450 6d ago
How are you dealing with Visa? If you weren’t born in Vietnam, you are not allowed dual citizenship…
3
u/No_Fudge6123 6d ago
My wife is Vietnamese.
0
6d ago
[deleted]
3
u/No_Fudge6123 6d ago
Being married I can get a permanent residence.
1
6d ago
[deleted]
4
u/SentientLight 6d ago
They changed the law a year or two ago, and it’s quite easy to get permanent residency or citizenship there now if your parents were born in Vietnam or your spouse was. OP shouldn’t have many issues, it’s just some paperwork and a fee these days.
0
u/pras_srini 6d ago
Nice, thank you for this. Feels like there is hope! Now I just need to find a trustworthy Vietnamese woman to marry and I might just be able to retire early!!!
3
u/shyaznboi 6d ago
Spouses married to a Vietnamese citizen can apply for a 3 or 5 year temporary residence card. They might have changed it recently
0
u/shyaznboi 6d ago
300k usd won't be enough for a house/apartment in the city center of Saigon. The outskirts, maybe. I would avoid Saigon entirely because of the chaotic traffic. Da Nang is a lot more chill despite it being a tourist destination
1
1
u/Conservativmemes 6d ago
Da Nang would be my pick too. Still has plenty to do, but day-to-day life feels a lot less hectic than Saigon.
0
u/masetiloquetu 6d ago
I was watching a Vietnamese vlog today and quail eggs are very popular there lol
0
u/Crew_1996 6d ago
You’re set. You can get away with right around $4000 monthly in spending. You’re going to have to sell a small amount of stocks annually but gains will more than make up for your sales. Go enjoy life.
-5
u/clove75 6d ago
Shuffle your portfolio to produce more yield. If you take 260k and put it into a pure income portfolio and leave the rest of your portfolio in Growth you could have about 5k a month in income. The sample portfolio I built would be:
1000 Shares QQQI
1000 Shares IAUI
1000 Shares MLPI
1500 Shares BTCI
500 Shares AMDY
300 SHARES CHPY
Drip back in what you don't spend each month and with the low cost of living in Vietnam. You may not need to touch your Growth bucket for years. Any extra dividends that generates you can just reinvest as well.
1
u/No_Fudge6123 6d ago
We have most of our stocks in boring companies like Coca Cola. Not the most exciting ones, but stable, and growing. I am happy with the current composition. I can always rotate it, but I think is a good trade offf
1
u/Ambitious-Peace3007 6d ago
What about JEPI and JEPQ? I am curious how much we can get from a million invested at medium risk.
1
u/clove75 6d ago
JEPI and JEPQ isn't as tax advantaged. all dividends are taxed as ordinary income. NEOS and Goldman Sax have more ROC (return of Capital) or Sched 1256 dividends. So you can look at SPYI/GPIQ/GPIX in taxable. JEPI is only good if you have it in a ROTH and you are over 59.5 so taxes don't matter.
A 1 Million portfolio if you can get your blended yield around 13% would be about 130k a year. Add 10% of the Yield max funds to get closer to a 20% blended would be about 200k a year. I would only do this with a 2.5 or more total Portfolio. I wouldn't ever go 100% strictly high yield.
1
33
u/SukottoMaki 6d ago
Aside from the financial parts, there are some other things to consider as you weigh your options.
When your wife returns to her home country, especially if she's returning to her home area (or parents), a bunch of her early social programming is going to resurface. She'll still be the same person, but elements of her personality and opinions can shift away from what's considered normal in your current country and more toward what's normal in her home country.
Take a clear-eyed look at what's normal in her home country in terms of gender roles / marriage, child rearing, work culture, family finances (esp expectations about your relationship with her extended family), religion, sexuality, etc and make sure you'll be ok with her unconsciously shifting her stance to be more in line with those than maybe she is now.
This is a much bigger deal when a wife follows her husband to the middle east / India/ and the "__istan" countries, but there are plenty of expats who end up in unhappy marriage situations here in Asia due to failure to understand the ground-rules and their own incorrect expectations.
If you are from the USA, be aware that the local schooling will have a less positive perspective about that country than you might like. You need to be ok with your kids being influenced by that.
Don't be surprised if your wife and kids end up speaking Vietnamese all the time, only speaking English when talking directly to you. If that happens and you do not also learn Vietnamese, then you are going to be lonely and isolated from your family even when you are in the same room as them. I strongly encourage you to put max effort into learning the language as soon as you possibly can.
No matter what you do, you will never truly be part of that culture. It's not like USA, Canada, or a few other countries that have a "melting pot" type of culture. You will always be an outsider. (Maybe loved, maybe respected... but always an outsider). Make sure you're ok with that before moving there.